Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Luigi
: Diddy, Mario, Fox, Pikachu
: Sheik, Ness, Pikachu

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

 

[FullMoon]

I see, I guess I just haven't gone against a good Pikachu yet. I don't really follow what the top players have been doing since I don't really like to watch other people play, but that's just my problem.

I just realized something about Greninja today. When fighting against Greninja it often feels like Greninja has this strong command of the air due to its movement speed, but just messing around in training mode today I noticed that it actually has really bad aerial deceleration. Once it commits to a jump, it more or less has to see it through, which might hurt it in certain matchups in particular.

I can't say I ever noticed this? I never really felt anything special about Greninja's jumping other than he has a really high short hop.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Fox
: Diddy, Mario, Fox
: Sheik, Ness

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

When u say definite do you mean like in ur opinion its definite and wont change for 5 years?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Its hyperbole.

 

[Antonykun]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Fox
: Diddy, Mario, Fox
: Sheik, Ness

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

@ Shaya your sarcasm is next level meta

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Fox
: Diddy, Mario, Fox
: Sheik, Ness

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

I like this list a lot seems pretty spot on ATM. I'm sure you've probably stated already but how do you feel about Rob? I feel like he has the potential to be a really strong character. Just haven't seen or read too much about him.

 

[Chuva]

Nice list. I'd definitely put Pikachu as threat to ZSS though.

 

[David Viran]

Tbh I don't think the Diddy MU for zss is that bad at all. Also I agree with chuva the Pikachu MU should be on there.

 

[Shaya]

I see, I guess I just haven't gone against a good Pikachu yet. I don't
really follow what the top players have been doing since I don't really like to watch other people play, but that's just my problem.



I can't say I ever noticed this? I never really felt anything special about Greninja's jumping other than he has a really high short hop.

Watching other people play is almost, if not more essential than actually playing in getting better. The more you understand, the more you see why certain things worked in more detail and hence contemplate how you could augment that.
Top players I'm around at the moment like M2K probably spend more time watching videos of other players than training himself, especially in Melee.
For multiple days after a weekend, a lot of players in that ilk are watching every match from the best showings of a region from that weekend. It's like doing homework. There is often a "hey watch this match with me" which is replied with "sure, but i've already seen it", and then a discussion always happens about things.

Gotta watch 'em all.

~
Pikachu has a really amazing dash grab and down tilt. Up tilt as well.
Like very amazing.
Thunder is the best it's ever been in utility. No longer that 'ha ha you accidentally momentum cancelled my up smash now you die' gimmick (even if it was the best gimmick move in Brawl because of it's success rate; lol).
Off stage usage, combo usage, trap usage, combo-breaking usage, the list goes on.
Up-B is the Brawl Falco-side b of the game, except you can do it twice. With less lag. This move is so spectacular that even I can pick Pika against ZeRo's Diddy and safely and frequently use it with little issue. Extra extra hard reads + power shield to deal with it for what feels a sub 15 frame punishment window (so you can dash grab and dash attack it maybe) meanwhile it's free stage positioning control/pressure 9/10 uses.
Thunder jolts are good. It's understating it, but I feel I need not say more.

An acceptable grab game, the only non top-tier caste in mobility is aerial mobility (but much like MK in brawl, I don't feel it matters with the aerial options existing), top 5 recovery, top 5 off stage harassment. An unbelievable amount of things don't work on Pikachu due to his animations and small hurtbox size, it's like "random" free invincibility and reduces how many MANY characters are actually able to punish your stuff.

 

[Nobie]

I see, I guess I just haven't gone against a good Pikachu yet. I don't really follow what the top players have been doing since I don't really like to watch other people play, but that's just my problem.



I can't say I ever noticed this? I never really felt anything special about Greninja's jumping other than he has a really high short hop.

Try jumping forward and holding back to move against your momentum, and compare it to a character like Yoshi or Mega Man.

 

[Zelder]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Fox
: Diddy, Mario, Fox, Pikachu
: Sheik, Ness

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

Uhm I don't know if you heard but Mario goes 45-55 with the whole cast so how can he threaten any character? He literally loses every match up.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Uhm I don't know if you heard but Mario goes 45-55 with the whole cast so how can he threaten any character? He literally loses every match up.

I would not put much faith in matchup ratios like that this early in the game's life.

 

[Zelder]

I would not put much faith in matchup ratios like that this early in the game's life.

I'm uh, being facetious.

I think one of the interesting trends this early in the game has been Robin, who was initially hailed as a very high tier, very powerful character, but as the gameplay has sped up (as players become more familiar with the game), people's opinions of Robin have gone downward.

Also I feel like Lucario would be less infuriating in a 3 stock meta, but I have no evidence to support that other than my gut. And also really, really hoping that 3 stock becomes the norm in the end.

 

[Minordeth]

I'm uh, being facetious.

I think one of the interesting trends this early in the game has been Robin, who was initially hailed as a very high tier, very powerful character, but as the gameplay has sped up (as players become more familiar with the game), people's opinions of Robin have gone downward.

Also I feel like Lucario would be less infuriating in a 3 stock meta, but I have no evidence to support that other than my gut. And also really, really hoping that 3 stock becomes the norm in the end.

I think Robin has two main problems that took her out of focus: mobility and accessibility. Sheik may have low accessibility as a character, but that is balanced by her high mobility. If you are new to Sheik, you can whiff or mess up a mix-up and still avoid punishment. Diddy has both characteristics in spades.

Given how we have seen the speed of tourney level Sm4sh increase, mobility issues with characters become more glaring, and it takes more understanding of a character to make up for that deficit. Robin's not an easy character to learn, and if you wiff an El-fire, chances are, you will pay, unless you understand her spacing well enough.

She's got more of a current deficit in popular momentum then say, Ganon. He, of course, has terrible mobility. But his accessibility is relatively high. What moves can even the playing field for someone who is new to Ganon? The answer is: All of them. All his moves. It should go without saying that I don't think Ganon is a better character than Robin.

It takes more of an understanding of Robin to make her a threat, and there are more mobile and accessible options to new players who want to play to win.

ETA: Thanks to everyone who took the time to read my TL;DR post from a bit back. :D
The more I drink, the more I type, so be on the look-out for drunken ramblings on stats and fighting games.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Gonna have to show people Wario is a "threat" the amount of people who sleep on this character is beyond me. Hidden high tier. Im glad Gluttony isn't from the US he's quietly destroying every one.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Errbody sleeping on the meat night, dat lil ol bat is still in this ****.

EDIT: Also, Yoshi does just fine against Ness, no idea why he's listed as a threat to Yoshi, match up is even at worst for Yoshi, if there had to be an advantage given to someone itd be Yoshi imo. ACTUAL threats to Yoshi include (not counting Sheik cuz you listed her) Pikachu, ZSS (prob even though), Diddy (arguably even though), and Sonic.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I feel the only Yoshi can hang with ZSS Diddy and pikachu.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I feel the only Yoshi can hang with ZSS Diddy and pikachu.

I dont know what you mean, can you rephrase that?

 

[Ffamran]

I dont know what you mean, can you rephrase that?

He means that he feels that only Yoshi can duke it out with Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, and Pikachu. So, Yoshi either has a fair, even, or an advantage against them MU-wise.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh yeah Im not saying theyre unwinnable or anything, but imo Id say Yoshi goes:

= 0 or -1, prob closer to even but its borderline
= 0 or +1 Yoshi doesnt lose this match up, come on guys~
= -1
= -1 or -2
= -1
= 0 or -1, prob even though

Those are literally like the only match ups that Yoshi loses. He has tons of even match ups as well.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Shieks the only 6-4 yoshi has I feel but even that is debatable because of her issues killing. I love yoshi and he was my main until I got back into wario and now I can't go back. I just think bite is one of the best moves in the game.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I play Wario as well, he's super underrated in this game. Prob not a top 10 character, but prob top 15, just no one plays him for whatever reason.

I disagree with Yoshi only losing to Sheik though. Sheik is NO DOUBT his absolute worst match up, but its not the only match up he loses.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I play Wario as well, he's super underrated in this game. Prob not a top 10 character, but prob top 15, just no one plays him for whatever reason.

I disagree with Yoshi only losing to Sheik though. Sheik is NO DOUBT his absolute worst match up, but its not the only match up he loses.

Calling wario to be top 10 a year from now. Someone snap shot this especially if the tourney rules stay 2 stock.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id be completely fine with being wrong about my opinion on Wario, Id LOVE to see him be shown to belong in top 10. Someone win Apex with Wario, COME ON GUYS!!

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Id be completely fine with being wrong about my opinion on Wario, Id LOVE to see him be shown to belong in top 10. Someone win Apex with Wario, COME ON GUYS!!

His worse spot in the list would be between10th-15th. I just think the majority of people still don't know how to play smash 4 wario. He's def different. He fair range buff is awesome dos spacing I can usually make it a pain to approach me. all the problems he has in brawl with grab release and chain grabs are gone now so system mechainics made him stronger. In due time people will realize the power.

 

[TriTails]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi

HOW!?!?!?!?
Oh yeah, I'd put as a threat to . Fireballs stop his Spin Dash, and Sonic has zero answer to them (No, I don't think Homing Attack counts. It is quite teleghraped). Plus, Luigi's seem faster...... in attack speed (Not dashing speed lol), and his combos and punish game are also impressive. So I think he is a threat to Sonic as well.

would also qualify.

And.... I seem to beat Ness all the time with Luigi. But oh well, those Ness spams PK Fire like twenty five times and 95% of them freaking miss. Never mind then.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

His worse spot in the list would be between10th-15th. I just think the majority of people still don't know how to play smash 4 wario. He's def different. He fair range buff is awesome dos spacing I can usually make it a pain to approach me. all the problems he has in brawl with grab release and chain grabs are gone now so system mechainics made him stronger. In due time people will realize the power.

I don't like sm4sh Wario and I'm not sure how any brawl Wario still plays him. I don't really like the changes to his bike ftilt fsmash dair nair usmash or bite. I doubt he's top 15. Gluttony wrecked **** with Wario in brawl it's not a surprise to see him continue to do the same.

 

[TriTails]

Uhm I don't know if you heard but Mario goes 45-55 with the whole cast so how can he threaten any character? He literally loses every match up.

Explain to me why.

Great grab game, great mobility, reflector, one of the best gimping tools, pretty good ground and air game overall, and his attacks are pretty fast (No, not looking at you, F-air).

If that's the case, then he would go 45-55 with WFT!? Lol'er'what?

And then that also means Luigi has an advantage.... I thought they are even?

 

[GreenFlame]

Explain to me why.

Great grab game, great mobility, reflector, one of the best gimping tools, pretty good ground and air game overall, and his attacks are pretty fast (No, not looking at you, F-air).

If that's the case, then he would go 45-55 with WFT!? Lol'er'what?

And then that also means Luigi has an advantage.... I thought they are even?

Pretty sure he said he was being facetious. Also, I'm not so sure about the Mario-Luigi Matchup being even. They're very different characters.

 

[HeroMystic]

He was making a jab to A2Z's theorycraft claims.

Also, Mario vs Luigi is currently 60:40 in Luigi's favor.

 

[LostinpinK]

Glutonny still plays Wario very successfully.

You can find some top level Wario games here, if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-ZKTh76K0#t=3061

 

[~ Gheb ~]

: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Luigi
: Diddy, Mario, Fox, Pikachu
: Sheik, Ness, Pikachu

Diddy, Mario and Luigi are all even with Fox. Yoshi, Sonic and Mii Brawler are real threats to him, maybe Pikachu too. Though a couple of these seem pretty random [Luigi a threat to sonic? Get out of here, Wario is a lot more difficult to beat for the hedgehog] and wtf is Falcon doing in your top 10?

 

[Shaya]

HOW!?!?!?!?

By virtue of having a match up not completely one-sided against Sheik, duh.


Wario isn't being slept on.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Glutonny still plays Wario very successfully.

You can find some top level Wario games here, if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-ZKTh76K0#t=3061

That video is a hour and 30 minutes....you got any timestamps?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That video is a hour and 30 minutes....you got any timestamps?

There *is* a timestamp fyi

 

[TriTails]

Pretty sure he said he was being facetious. Also, I'm not so sure about the Mario-Luigi Matchup being even. They're very different characters.

Remind me to open up a tab of 'Google Translate' to aid my not-so-great English understanding. I didn't understand what 'facetious' mean when I make my post, pardon me for that.

He was making a jab to A2Z's theorycraft claims.

Also, Mario vs Luigi is currently 60:40 in Luigi's favor.

I thought it was even....?

I assume it's because of Luigi's superior combos, damage output, killing options, and punish game?

 

[HeroMystic]

I thought it was even....?

I assume it's because of Luigi's superior combos, damage output, killing options, and punish game?

Those are mostly just icing on the cake for Luigi.

Luigi beats Mario's aerials with N-air, and N-air does insane damage (12%), meaning that it is completely unfavorable for Mario to be aggressive in this MU, which is really really bad because as a CQC fighter, Mario wants to be up close. So in this MU, Mario has a role reversal of spacing Luigi, and as we all know Mario isn't exactly a zoning character.

What stops this match from spiraling out of control is the fact that Mario can force Luigi to approach with a combination of all his specials, and his mobility. Mario is capable of punishing anything Luigi dishes out, and U-Smash beats every aerial Luigi has, and there are still a few guaranteed combos Mario has on Luigi. But the fact that trading hits with Luigi is almost always unfavorable and Luigi has much more solid kill options gives him a good advantage against his brother.

I'm pretty sure this is the one of the few MUs where going Doc is the better choice.

 

[Trifroze]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Luigi
: Diddy, Mario, Fox, Pikachu
: Sheik, Ness, Pikachu

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

Falcon is a bad MU for Rosalina and Ness? Me along with many others think it's the opposite (not entirely sure of Rosalina though). What brought you to think Ness has trouble with Falcon? On the other hand, Yoshi seems very even because he can't grab us or keep us away, kinda the same with ZSS except scary range.

And to explain why Ness and Rosalina seem tough: they both absolutely wreck Falcon offstage and have hitboxes to keep Falcon away in neutral. For Rosalina the redeeming factor may be that Falcon gets rid of Luma very easily.

 

[Zelder]

Yeah, Mario versus Luigi is bad times for Mario. Though Gust Cape helps a bit (Luigi has always had trouble with windboxes/the cape).

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Glutonny still plays Wario very successfully.

You can find some top level Wario games here, if you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-ZKTh76K0#t=3061

Don't be posting that! I like people thinking im playing a low tier character in wario. Also about the videos I don't think gluttony is even playing wario 100% correctly yet in smash 4. He commits way to much and plays way to aggressive. Needs to bait more and do more retreating fairs and nairs instead of going all in. But yes those videos do show the potential of wario and that's him still playing a brawl type wario. Just wait.