Character Competitive Impressions

[Big-Cat]

I think Robin has two main problems that took her out of focus: mobility and accessibility. Sheik may have low accessibility as a character, but that is balanced by her high mobility.

How does her high mobility balance out Sheik's learning curve? If anything, that makes her even easier to learn.

 

[Terotrous]

does it count if one uses the pummel at around 145? piy gets like a free 4 and can then kill with f throw. and being a pit main trust me thats his most reliable way of taking a stock.

I would tend to say that just means Pit suffers from a lack of reliable kill moves in general, and this has indeed been my general experience when playing him. I really wish Back Air still killed early like it does in PM (also possibly VBrawl? Been ages since I played that), I keep hitting the sweet spot Bair and expecting it to kill, but it never does.

Playing against Pikachu, it feels like almost everything he does is difficult to punish. Certain characters can't even shield grab him very well because he low profiles a lot of attacks after landing from an aerial.

Well yeah, he's super fast. It's generally a better option to try to intercept him, with his stubby little limbs his hitboxes aren't very advantageous and your attacks will usually trade or win. Still can be tough considering how much pressure he can apply once he's on you.

: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Sheik, Ness, Pikachu

I must be doing something wrong, because I find the Fox MU pretty hard with Yoshi, and my perception is that it is 5-5. Fox cannot really be kept out with eggs, which negates a huge part of Yoshi's neutral game, and he's generally very safe with surprising power. However, Yoshi can put damage on pretty well if he gains stage control as he has good tools to punish Fox's landings and recovery.

If there's some trick that makes beating him easy I'd love to know what it is.


I'm also not convinced Yoshi has problems with Ness. Eggs are a pretty good tool against him, and Yoshi doesn't really fear PK Fire very much since he can often escape it with double jump. I would tend to say 5-5 or maybe 5.5-4.5 Yoshi.

I do generally agree with Sheik and Pikachu, mostly for the same reasons as Fox. Yoshi likes to control the pace of the match, so he most fears characters who can take this away from him. ZSS and Sonic can also potentially be a problem in this regard.

Oh yeah Im not saying theyre unwinnable or anything, but imo Id say Yoshi goes:

= 0 or -1, prob closer to even but its borderline
= 0 or +1 Yoshi doesnt lose this match up, come on guys~
= -1
= -1 or -2
= -1
= 0 or -1, prob even though

Those are literally like the only match ups that Yoshi loses. He has tons of even match ups as well.

EDIT: Just saw this, and I pretty much totally agree. I feel that the Diddy matchup is also generally even, though like Fox it's a complete pain to fight. As with Fox, stage control is the key. Eggs are a little more usable against Diddy at least.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Luigi
: Diddy, Mario, Fox, Pikachu
: Sheik, Ness, Pikachu

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

Rosalina wins the match up against Falcon. I've played against top level Falcon players and as Rosalina I always feel in control of the match up. As long as I avoid getting Dair spiked I'm basically good.

Falcon has some fundamental weaknesses. For one thing, has has no projectile. This allows Rosalina to be a master of space against Falcon. Yes, Falcon is fast and tries to rush in, but Rosalina can deal with that just fine.

Falcon can juggle Rosalina alright... but not nearly as well as Rosalina can juggle Falcon.

Falcon can gimp Rosalina alright... but not nearly as well as Rosalina can juggle Falcon. If Falcon is forced to recover either low or at stage level, Falcon is basically dead. If Falcon recovers high, Rosalina can continue to juggle him with U-Airs or Fairs.

As a Rosalina player I breathe a sign of relief whenever my opponent is about to use Falcon against me, because I'm so comfortable in the match up.

---

Now, Yoshi, on the other hand... a good Yoshi is wayyyyyyyyyyy harder for Rosalina than a good Falcon. That's who should be on your list as a threat to Rosalina instead.

---

On a separate note, more and more I think Rosalina is a counter to Fox. Rosalina can easily gimp Fox, and Fox can't gimp Rosalina. Rosalina can really control space against Fox as well (yes Fox has lasers, but that doesn't much matter as Rosalina likes to space out her opponent from mid-range, not long-range, and Fox's lasers won't be safe there. And in any case, Luma eats the lasers). The only thing Rosalina really has to worry about is that she can die from an up-smash really early, but at the same time Rosalina's attacks also kill Fox really early, so it basically balances out.

 

[Ffamran]

How does her high mobility balance out Sheik's learning curve? If anything, that makes her even easier to learn.

Unless it's like Sonic or speed Shulk who run at the speed of sound and off the ledge... Or Fox falling like he has magnets on his boots, but this might be a 3DS thing.

Her speed allows her to hit and run well since not only are her attacks fast, but she's fast too. Also she moves fast, but not too fast where it becomes an issue. Like Shulk moves fast with speed, but he still attacks somewhat slow.

Sheik and Yoshi are really safe and friendly characters, well, Yoshi's more friendly since he kills easier and he's an adorable, green dinosaur.

 

[Marcbri]

Falcon doesn't need a projectile when he can punish almost all of them from the other side of the stage. His jab + dash grab speed flat out destroy many characters.

It's nice to see some people putting him in top 10, I'm pretty sure he belongs there.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Falcon doesn't need a projectile when he can punish almost all of them from the other side of the stage. His jab + dash grab speed flat out destroy many characters.

It's nice to see some people putting him in top 10, I'm pretty sure he belongs there.

Falcon is good, I agree. I'm not saying he needs a projectile to be good. What I am saying is that not having spacing tools is really bad in a match up against Rosalina, since it allows Luma to be the master of space.

Don't get me wrong, Falcon can do things against Rosalina. Falcon's jab kills Luma quite easily. Rosalina doesn't have an easy time landing if Falcon gets her in the air. His Dair is a big threat against Rosalina's recovery. And of course his raw speed negates Rosalina's spacing advantage to an extent.

But for the reasons I mentioned before, I think he loses the match up against Rosalina solidly. So I'm not saying Falcon isn't good. I'm just saying that he's certainly not a counter to Rosalina.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly, about half the cast has been suggested to be top 10 material at one point or another now. Since the roster is quite a bit larger than 20 characters, it stands to reason that not all proposed top 10s are in fact top 10.

Just an observation.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Honestly, about half the cast has been suggested to be top 10 material at one point or another now. Since the roster is quite a bit larger than 20 characters, it stands to reason that not all proposed top 10s are in fact top 10.

Just an observation.

tho'.

Smooth Criminal

 

[GreenFlame]

Honestly, about half the cast has been suggested to be top 10 material at one point or another now. Since the roster is quite a bit larger than 20 characters, it stands to reason that not all proposed top 10s are in fact top 10.

Just an observation.

The thing is, the roster is so balanced that it seems like everyone is good (and they are), so it's hard to tell who is actually the best characters aside from the obvious Diddy and probably Sheik.

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly, about half the cast has been suggested to be top 10 material at one point or another now. Since the roster is quite a bit larger than 20 characters, it stands to reason that not all proposed top 10s are in fact top 10.

Just an observation.

Well duh. Top 10 "material" doesn't mean they're definitely top 10, just that they seem like they could be. We don't know enough yet to nail down the exact top 10.

I do think though that this indicates that the game is pretty balanced in general.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well duh. Top 10 "material" doesn't mean they're definitely top 10, just that they seem like they could be. We don't know enough yet to nail down the exact top 10.

I do think though that this indicates that the game is pretty balanced in general.

I agree, the game is pretty well balanced (as far as we can tell ATM), but every time I see someone say "X is top 10 material" I just think to myself "well they better get in line."

 

[L9999]

Thoughts of the day expressed in some format - "Threats to the threats"
: Sheik; Pikachu/Jigglypuff (avoid dthrow follow ups with good DI post 50% from what I've seen), Olimar, Villager
: Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Mario, Peach

: Diddy, Pikachu, Yoshi, ZSS (Sheik is still probably a losing MU but not who I feel falcon is wishing they avoided right now)
: Yoshi, Diddy, Mario, Luigi
: Ness, Olimar, Sheik, Villager
: Diddy, Sheik, Falcon
: Diddy, Falcon, Rosalina
: Sheik, Rosalina, Ness, Luigi
: Diddy, Mario, Fox, Pikachu
: Sheik, Ness, Pikachu

WIP. Also by accident I have rounded off what is probably my most comfortable top 10 to date (before you ask, this is definitely definitive and will not change for the next 5 years no matter what, it's FINAL, and playing any other character means you're a destined to never take a stock from anyone), not really ordering things though.

Curious that you mentioned Jigglypuff, no one talks about Jigglypuff.
gets wrecked without mercy by . Same with this guy. is not that hard, a few baits he is dead, plus he is very easy to gimp. Uair juggle can be escaped with Nair I think.

 

[Big-Cat]

Unless it's like Sonic or speed Shulk who run at the speed of sound and off the ledge... Or Fox falling like he has magnets on his boots, but this might be a 3DS thing.

Her speed allows her to hit and run well since not only are her attacks fast, but she's fast too. Also she moves fast, but not too fast where it becomes an issue. Like Shulk moves fast with speed, but he still attacks somewhat slow.

Sheik and Yoshi are really safe and friendly characters, well, Yoshi's more friendly since he kills easier and he's an adorable, green dinosaur.

What does the 3DS have to do with it?

 

[Z'zgashi]

I must be doing something wrong, because I find the Fox MU pretty hard with Yoshi, and my perception is that it is 5-5. Fox cannot really be kept out with eggs, which negates a huge part of Yoshi's neutral game, and he's generally very safe with surprising power. However, Yoshi can put damage on pretty well if he gains stage control as he has good tools to punish Fox's landings and recovery.

If there's some trick that makes beating him easy I'd love to know what it is.

I didnt even notice that earlier. Yeah, Fox v Yoshi is even, Yoshi might have a VERY SLIGHT edge, but its hardly noticeable and its MUCH closer to even. Yoshi doesnt beat Fox, or at least not with our current tech.

 

[HeavyLobster]

tho'.

Smooth Criminal

I've gone back and forth on Dedede a few times. At first I thought he was solid, then I thought he was slow, fat combo fodder, and now I think he's fairly capable but not overwhelming. He's clearly a notch above characters like Charizard, Ganon and Doc, who all belong somewhere in the muddled mass of the 10-15 bottom characters in the game, but there's still a lot of better characters out there. I'd probably rank him around 30th best in the game if I had to give a ballpark estimate of where I think he belongs.

 

[Smog Frog]

charizard is not bottom 15, just unexplored, like melee puff before hbox

best punish game, lives the longest of anybody in the cast, disjointed hitboxes(his tail doesnt have a hurtbox), amazing offstage game and heavyweight kill power, also has one of the best jabs in the game

also its not safe to shield since he has the 2nd longest non tether grab

i could go on and on but i'm at school

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've gone back and forth on Dedede a few times. At first I thought he was solid, then I thought he was slow, fat combo fodder, and now I think he's fairly capable but not overwhelming. He's clearly a notch above characters like Charizard, Ganon and Doc, who all belong somewhere in the muddled mass of the 10-15 bottom characters in the game, but there's still a lot of better characters out there. I'd probably rank him around 30th best in the game if I had to give a ballpark estimate of where I think he belongs.

My impression of Dedede is that if you give him space he can put a wall of hitboxes between the two of you, but his buttons are slow in general and thus he falters under serious pressure. Therefore the key is to stay in his face and use your fastest attacks to keep him from pulling out his big guns.

Also isn't he literally the hardest character to kill or something based on weight and fall speed stats?

 

[Hippieslayer]

charizard is not bottom 15, just unexplored, like melee puff before hbox

best punish game, lives the longest of anybody in the cast, disjointed hitboxes(his tail doesnt have a hurtbox), amazing offstage game and heavyweight kill power, also has one of the best jabs in the game

also its not safe to shield since he has the 2nd longest non tether grab

i could go on and on but i'm at school

which 15 characters are worse than zard? :S and how is he unexplored bar customs? what's there to find out about him?

 

[Terotrous]

Honestly I'm pretty convinced that Zard is bottom 5, at least with customs off. He's actually not unplayably useless (a testament to this game's balance), but I do think there are few characters worse off than he is.

I would probably be tempted to say bottom 5 is Kirby, Zard, Swordfighter, Dr Mario, and Ganondorf, not in any order.

 

[Teshie U]

No one thinks Megaman is top 10? Only character that feels like he is playing a keep away game right in front of you.

 

[Terotrous]

No one thinks Megaman is top 10? Only character that feels like he is playing a keep away game right in front of you.

I don't think keepaway is generally that strong in this game, largely due to the loss of autocancelling upon landing with a projectile. The best zoners are characters like Yoshi and Sheik who can zone you a bit, but aren't at any real disadvantage when they have to fight up close.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi has a solid advantage over Fox imo. The problem is that there are no good Yoshi players around that take advantage of the fact that Yoshi does pretty much everything better than Fox does, even if only slightly so.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Also isn't he literally the hardest character to kill or something based on weight and fall speed stats?

It feels like he lives the longest in general except for Charizard, though Charizard hurts himself and has a lot of armor, so that's not purely a function of survivability. Either way he's tough to kill, and his high fall speed does affect his vertical survivability, so he might be the toughest character to kill off the top.

 

[Terotrous]

Yoshi has a solid advantage over Fox imo. The problem is that there are no good Yoshi players around that take advantage of the fact that Yoshi does pretty much everything better than Fox does, even if only slightly so.

I disagree, Fox is notably faster and safer than Yoshi. His upsmash is clearly better than Yoshi's, and he also has a much better grab and throws.

By comparison Yoshi has better defense, a command throw, and his zoning game is better, though that's not a huge help against Fox, who is too fast to be zoned effectively.

 

[BBC7]

No one thinks Megaman is top 10? Only character that feels like he is playing a keep away game right in front of you.

Mew2King thinks so, I remember he mentioned that he wouldn't be surprised if Mega Man was in the Top 10 or something like that. I think people still have the "Mega Man is trash" stigma from Day 1 that's making it harder for people to admit that Mega Man is actually a threat in the competitive scene. Hell, M2K even went on to say that Mega Man is a better character than Sonic, something most people would refute. My $0.02 is that if someone can perform well with a character at the highest level of play, then the character in question is a good character. Zucco is proof that Mega Man is good, same with Will and DK.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I disagree, Fox is notably faster and safer than Yoshi. His upsmash is clearly better than Yoshi's, and he also has a much better grab and throws.

By comparison Yoshi has better defense, a command throw, and his zoning game is better, though that's not a huge help against Fox, who is too fast to be zoned effectively.

Fox is way less safe then Yoshi.

 

[Zelder]

Mew2King thinks so, I remember he mentioned that he wouldn't be surprised if Mega Man was in the Top 10 or something like that. I think people still have the "Mega Man is trash" stigma from Day 1 that's making it harder for people to admit that Mega Man is actually a threat in the competitive scene. Hell, M2K even went on to say that Mega Man is a better character than Sonic, something most people would refute. My $0.02 is that if someone can perform well with a character at the highest level of play, then the character in question is a good character. Zucco is proof that Mega Man is good, just like how Will is proof that DK is good.

Didn't he also think that Ivysaur was the best P:M character in 3.1 (2.6?)?

M2K has...interesting thoughts on character strength.

 

[Terotrous]

Fox is way less safe then Yoshi.

On what?

UpSmash is more safe
Dash attack is more safe
Bair is more safe
Grab is more safe
Utilt is more safe
DSmash is more safe

Neutral air has the same landing lag, though I feel that due to hitbox placement fox can use it air to ground more effectively than Yoshi. That's maybe a little debatable though. Fox's fastfall is also faster than Yoshi's.

Jab and FTilt seem to be about the same, though Fox's jab does have faster startup than Yoshi's.


That's most of Fox's neutral tools. Fair is quite unsafe, but what Fox uses Fair in neutral? The only move I can see that might be less safe for Fox is FSmash, though even then I'd want to see frame data.

 

[Teshie U]

I don't think keepaway is generally that strong in this game, largely due to the loss of autocancelling upon landing with a projectile. The best zoners are characters like Yoshi and Sheik who can zone you a bit, but aren't at any real disadvantage when they have to fight up close.

Well Megaman actually does have a couple of projectiles that are safe enough on landing. (Metal Blade as an item and Nair)

His keep away is more like he can get to you but you can't get to him. And he definitely still can hang up close with his quick grab, upsmash and aerials.


He only real weakness I'd say is shielding can slow him down a bit as his throw combos aren't super dangerous.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I disagree, Fox is notably faster and safer than Yoshi. His upsmash is clearly better than Yoshi's, and he also has a much better grab and throws.

Nothing Fox does is safer than what Yoshi does, neither against Shield nor against Roll. Fox usmash is more powerful but much more impractical because it has a pretty small hitbox with a tiny sweetspot whereas Yoshi's usmash has a ridiculous hitbox that always hits hard.

[/quote]

 

[David Viran]

Nothing Fox does is safer than what Yoshi does, neither against Shield nor against Roll. Fox usmash is more powerful but much more impractical because it has a pretty small hitbox with a tiny sweetspot whereas Yoshi's usmash has a ridiculous hitbox that always hits hard.

[/quote]
I would say Fox is better at getting through shield because he has a normal grab. Plus his follow ups off of grabs may not be too good but are better than yoshi's. Yoshi is better at hitting shield and being safe but Fox can grab straight through shield.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fox is super UNSAFE. Are we talking about the same character? That's one of the main reasons Yoshi is better than Fox. He has to take far less risks in neutral. Fox only has f-tilt and spaced bair as safe pokes.

Nothing else.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I would probably be tempted to say bottom 5 is Kirby, Zard, Swordfighter, Dr Mario, and Ganondorf, not in any order.

Not a bad list, but I think Zelda's worse than Doc, who's worse than Zard/Kirby/Ganon, and I can't comment on Swordfighter since I know nothing about him. Zard/Kirby/Ganon I would consider largely indistinguishable from other characters generally considered to be subpar, but I think Zelda and Doc inhabit a tier below them due to their lack of major strengths to compensate for their generic low tier weaknesses. I don't know enough about Swordfighter or WFT to decide if they belong in this category, but they'd probably be candidates.

 

[ChopperDave]

Well Megaman actually does have a couple of projectiles that are safe enough on landing. (Metal Blade as an item and Nair)

His keep away is more like he can get to you but you can't get to him. And he definitely still can hang up close with his quick grab, upsmash and aerials.


He only real weakness I'd say is shielding can slow him down a bit as his throw combos aren't super dangerous.

That's mostly because Mega Man's throw themselves can already be pretty nasty without followups. With Leaf Shield up, you can easily net 24+% with two pummels and a bthrow, which ain't nothing to snuff at.

I think Mega Man's throws are mostly there to do some damage and create some breathing room. All of them except for dthrow give him enough time to get a Metal Blade in his hands or a Leaf Shield up, allowing him to set up for his next play.

The other interesting thing about MM is that his pellets give him a poor man's Short Hop Laser in a game where Falco doesn't really have that option anymore, which in some ways gives him the option for a similar disruptive playstyle to OG Falco's.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I would say Fox is better at getting through shield because he has a normal grab. Plus his follow ups off of grabs may not be too good but are better than yoshi's. Yoshi is better at hitting shield and being safe but Fox can grab straight through shield.

Yoshi laughs at shields. Between being able to mix up retreating nair, crossup nair, dair, Egg Lay and even Yolo downB against shields Yoshi gets to choose between either completely crippling it or just bypass it completely. And those are just his aerial options and don't include stuff like jab, egg toss or ftilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox is super UNSAFE. Are we talking about the same character? That's one of the main reasons Yoshi is better than Fox. He has to take far less risks in neutral. Fox only has f-tilt and spaced bair as safe pokes.

Nothing else.

But...that's pretty much all Yoshi has in neutral anyway if you're talking safe pokes. His negative state however is better than Fox's due to weight and air mobility though, and he has better KO setups than Fox.

 

[Yonder]

My impression of Dedede is that if you give him space he can put a wall of hitboxes between the two of you, but his buttons are slow in general and thus he falters under serious pressure. Therefore the key is to stay in his face and use your fastest attacks to keep him from pulling out his big guns.

Also isn't he literally the hardest character to kill or something based on weight and fall speed stats?

DDD is impossible to kill. I usually rack him to 100% as Luigi within a D throw for 2...then spend the rest of the match trying to kill him. Quite a pain.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I was with everything until I read ftilt.
Why is that move of all things worth noting in the plethora of stuff Yoshi has this time around.

 

[Smog Frog]

i can name alot of chars worse than zard(this is no specific order)

wft
zelda
samus
kirby
doc
mii swrd
gnw
lucina
little mac
dhd
junior
ganon
mk
falco
link

not to say these characters are bad, i just think charizard is better than they are(a character with absurd longevity, among the best punish games, and high damage/kill power simply CANT be bottom 15)

 

[A2ZOMG]

i can name alot of chars worse than zard(this is no specific order)

wft
zelda
samus
kirby
doc
mii swrd
gnw
lucina
little mac
dhd
junior
ganon
mk
falco
link

not to say these characters are bad, i just think charizard is better than they are(a character with absurd longevity, among the best punish games, and high damage/kill power simply CANT be bottom 15)

Charizard does have kinda terrible aerials though outside of N-air. Also his recovery is mostly just average.

I would argue Falco, Duck Hunt, and Bowser Jr. being explicitly better than Charizard. The others give or take are similarly ranked, with a few being slightly worse.