Character Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Greninja is just so deceptive even his hurtbox can trick you into leaving yourself open.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's Side Taunt dodges Fox's blaster.

Yeah, whenever I taunt in FG when against a Fox, my taunt usually dodges a few hits lol.

What axis is it? Is it X? If I'm not wrong, Z axis is at the..... er background.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Luigi's Side Taunt dodges Fox's blaster.

Yeah, whenever I taunt in FG when against a Fox, my taunt usually dodges a few hits lol.

What axis is it? Is it X? If I'm not wrong, Z axis is at the..... er background.

Generally X is the horizontal axis, Y is vertical, and Z is depth.

 

[Lunix7]

G&W doesn't feel right. I can't explain what it is but I've been trying him out for the past month with no success. Anyone else have opinions, preferably more insightful than mine?

You are not alone on this. Honestly G&W just isn't nearly as good as he used to be in brawl and I have accepted that. Once you accept that he is not that good he becomes a fun character to use (well imo anyway). Honestly I use him as a defensive character and avoid using him as an air fighter since he is just not that good in the air with a lot of landing lag in his aerials. I only really use his aerials for mix ups or If I know I can land a hit with them.

His ground game isn't too bad but unimpressive. I'll admit that his jab, dash attack and Usmash are really good though. G&W is also good for edge guarding (chef works for edge guarding as well and can be used to create follow ups believe it or not) Well anyway that's my thoughts on G&W.

 

[BBC7]

I

You are not alone on this. Honestly G&W just isn't nearly as good as he used to be in brawl and I have accepted that. Once you accept that he is not that good he becomes a fun character to use (well imo anyway). Honestly I use him as a defensive character and avoid using him as an air fighter since he is just not that good in the air with a lot of landing lag in his aerials. I only really use his aerials for mix ups or If I know I can land a hit with them.

His ground game isn't too bad but unimpressive. I'll admit that his jab, dash attack and Usmash are really good though. G&W is also good for edge guarding (chef works for edge guarding as well and can be used to create follow ups believe it or not) Well anyway that's my thoughts on G&W.

Yeah, but I'm not willing to accept that he's just flat-out bad and there's nothing to do about it. I already invested time into the character and he's not performing, so I just end up frustrating myself since I no longer remember how to play Mega Man, who is actually good and can handle match-ups against the higher tiered characters. I used to have fun landing 9's and all that, but it's no longer satisfying when you realize the character isn't really good enough to handle fights without luck on his side. Every time I lose, I can't help but slap myself and think "Why did I bother learning to play this character?". In fact, I'm reminded even more that I'm stupid because I inflict pain on myself just because I'm bad with a character. I don't know why, but I feel like a failure today which is different from how I usually feel. Maybe I'm just too salty

 

[Lunix7]

I


Yeah, but I'm not willing to accept that he's just flat-out bad and there's nothing to do about it. I already invested time into the character and he's not performing, so I just end up frustrating myself since I no longer remember how to play Mega Man, who is actually good and can handle match-ups against the higher tiered characters. I used to have fun landing 9's and all that, but it's no longer satisfying when you realize the character isn't really good enough to handle fights without luck on his side. Every time I lose, I can't help but slap myself and think "Why did I bother learning to play this character?". In fact, I'm reminded even more that I'm stupid because I inflict pain on myself just because I'm bad with a character. I don't know why, but I feel like a failure today which is different from how I usually feel. Maybe I'm just too salty

I understand what you are saying and I shouldn't have easily wrote off G&W but its just how I feel about him. Thing is though I didn't give up on him. Sure I said he isn't that good but that doesn't mean I'll stop using him because hell I like his play style and used him since brawl. I mean I'll complain about him but that's just because I care about the character. Also you shouldn't beat yourself over it since hell you might just have had a bad day, everyone loses badly sometimes. I lost a lot with G&W and won a lot with him. Basically what I'm trying to say is you shouldn't care what anyone thinks about him and continue to use him since you used him this long for a reason. Just keep using him and don't give up!

 

[Ffamran]

At least you're not playing as Falco... Lots of the uninformed rags on Falco to the point where he's probably got a separate tier below everyone in their minds. Yay, F-tier. Yay...

Anyway, since we're still talking about Mr. Game & Watch and since Mega Man was mentioned, what is their MU like?

 

[mimgrim]

Speaking of PP, I'm surprised we still barely see any application of it in high level play.

It was the same way in Brawl. I suppose one could claim that Brawl players were lazy and are still being lazy with Smash 4 or whatever. But the technique, and its variants, aren't exactly easy to do in the first place and being able to do them consistently is a different thing and the reward for them actually isn't that great anyways. It sounds good in theory but in application it isn't so great. I still can't get over that "news" post about it being the new Wave Dash. It could be that eventually the tech will have more application later on but seeing as the tech never saw much use in Brawl I have doubts about that happening. Regardless, I don't get the hype that the tech is getting all of a sudden.

 

[IsmaR]

MM's F-Smash fully charges bucket. Which is always fun.

Makes you sad/nostalgic remembering pre-patch/nerf PikaBucket teams, though.

 

[Ffamran]

MM's F-Smash fully charges bucket. Which is always fun.

Makes you sad/nostalgic remembering pre-patch/nerf PikaBucket teams, though.

Isn't that the same with Lucario and Samus's fully charged Neutral Specials?

Oh, and I'm loving that Shovel Knight sig.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It was the same way in Brawl. I suppose one could claim that Brawl players were lazy and are still being lazy with Smash 4 or whatever. But the technique, and its variants, aren't exactly easy to do in the first place and being able to do them consistently is a different thing and the reward for them actually isn't that great anyways. It sounds good in theory but in application it isn't so great. I still can't get over that "news" post about it being the new Wave Dash. It could be that eventually the tech will have more application later on but seeing as the tech never saw much use in Brawl I have doubts about that happening. Regardless, I don't get the hype that the tech is getting all of a sudden.

im pretty sure tripping also decreased the techs relibilty as well.

 

[IsmaR]

Isn't that the same with Lucario and Samus's fully charged Neutral Specials?

Samus, definitely. Lucario I think may depend on your aura level/size. I recall only getting 2/3 filled in certain circumstances.

Oh, and I'm loving that Shovel Knight sig.

*Shield Knight

 

[Ffamran]

Samus, definitely. Lucario I think may depend on your aura level/size. I recall only getting 2/3 filled in certain circumstances.



*Shield Knight

Hey, I haven't played Shovel Knight, yet.

Hmm... So, Samus, Mega Man, and Lucario... Who are the others? Robin's Thoron? Er... Bucket can absorb Thoron, right?

 

[Pyr]

im pretty sure tripping also decreased the techs relibilty as well.

I think this is a very valid point. Tripping cost stocks at times. The general feel of the game may of made it less necessary as well.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hey, I haven't played Shovel Knight, yet.

Hmm... So, Samus, Mega Man, and Lucario... Who are the others? Robin's Thoron? Er... Bucket can absorb Thoron, right?

Bucket does absorb Thoron and will fill to max in one shot if Robin fires point blank and GW's ready for it.

Bucket will also fill to max if GW jumps into an Arcfire pillar as soon as it ignites; if he shields the fireball, rolls, and then jumps in, he gets two units instead. Buuuut a bucket from three Arcfires is pitifully weak, due to the nonexistent knockback of the ball and pillar itself (Bucket knockback is dependent on the initial knockback of the projectiles used to fill it, correct?)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Greninja is just so deceptive even his hurtbox can trick you into leaving yourself open.

Yup you think you have an awesome character with a cool looking design but you only get a cool looking character. .....damn you greninja.

 

[Kofu]

Bucket does absorb Thoron and will fill to max in one shot if Robin fires point blank and GW's ready for it.

Bucket will also fill to max if GW jumps into an Arcfire pillar as soon as it ignites; if he shields the fireball, rolls, and then jumps in, he gets two units instead. Buuuut a bucket from three Arcfires is pitifully weak, due to the nonexistent knockback of the ball and pillar itself (Bucket knockback is dependent on the initial knockback of the projectiles used to fill it, correct?)

Pretty sure it has more to do with the damage the projectile deals, not the knockback necessarily. Of course, since more damage equals more knockback, you're not completely wrong. However, even stuff like the Mario Bros. Fireballs creates a pretty potent bucket, capable of killing them around 50% if not earlier. The reason Arcfire buckets are weak is because it's absorbing three 1% blips of the attack.

 

[TriTails]

I pelted Weegee's Fireballs at Mr. G&W's Bucket, thinking it's not much of a big deal since even if the knockback is tripled, there is no way it's going to kill Luigi.

And I ended up getting washed with my 3 own Fireballs and sent flying to my KO.

Learnt my lesson. Thank you... er.... Mister Mr. Game & Watch.

How does Bucket works anyway? Does it mean if G&W was to Bucket Fox's Blaster then the knockback is 'meh'? Is it based on damage or the moves' actual knockbacks?

 

[BoN~]

OMG
Luigi Side's Taunt Dodges Various Grabs! :0

 

[TriTails]

OMG
Luigi Side's Taunt Dodges Various Grabs! :0

We then can agree on Luigi has the most powerful taunts then.

Up Taunt describes basically everything you need to say.
First pose = "Hey!", "Hi!", etc.
Second pose = "That was crazy!", "You feel real scary!", etc.
Third pose = "I'm a cool guy!", "That was great!", etc.
Fourth pose = "Now why did I SD'd there?", "Aw, I lost a stock.", etc.
Fifth pose = "Waaah!", "What kind of moves you just pulled off!?", etc.

Side Taunt dodges attacks.

Down Taunt is a OHKO at the edge .

 

[Road Death Wheel]

We then can agree on Luigi has the most powerful taunts then.

Up Taunt describes basically everything you need to say.
First pose = "Hey!", "Hi!", etc.
Second pose = "That was crazy!", "You feel real scary!", etc.
Third pose = "I'm a cool guy!", "That was great!", etc.
Fourth pose = "Now why did I SD'd there?", "Aw, I lost a stock.", etc.
Fifth pose = "Waaah!", "What kind of moves you just pulled off!?", etc.

Side Taunt dodges attacks.

Down Taunt is a OHKO at the edge .

we all know shulk has the best taunts. Mentally of course.

 

[Ffamran]

we all know shulk has the best taunts. Mentally of course.

I think you meant Captain Falcon does...

Hmm, now I'm wondering if his little hop before saying "Come on!" can actually dodge anything. Same with Ganondorf's levitating spin.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think you meant Captain Falcon does...

Hmm, now I'm wondering if his little hop before saying "Come on!" can actually dodge anything. Same with Ganondorf's levitating spin.

I totally dodged a Star Rod shot in Brawl with it.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Are these 3D hit calculations altered at all on stages like Duck Hunt and Pacland where characters appear 2D (seriously, pause it and tilt the camera. Its why these stages have fixed cameras)?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In Brawl the bucket was based purely on damage; most projectiles do very small knockback so the move pretty much had to be that way to be useful. In this game especially powerful hits give multiple levels of charge, and I'm not entirely sure how that works in terms of the power, but for moves that only give one level, it seems to still be the same.

 

[ChopperDave]

At least you're not playing as Falco... Lots of the uninformed rags on Falco to the point where he's probably got a separate tier below everyone in their minds. Yay, F-tier. Yay...

Anyway, since we're still talking about Mr. Game & Watch and since Mega Man was mentioned, what is their MU like?

I've played this MU quite a bit with my buddy, who mains G&W. Feels pretty even to me. Maybe leans in MM's favor.

Bucket is obviously an important part of the MU. On the one hand, if G&W buckets a fsmash, he more or less gets a free kill on his next dthrow, so MM has to respect that and it limits his ability to use fsmash. On the other hand, MM has a lot of ways to bait and punish the bucket. Metal blade and leaf shield both cannot be bucketed, making metal blades in particular a good fakeout option. Bucketing 3 lemons is only slightly better than useless (and frees up MM to use his fsmash without worry until the bucket is emptied.). Crash Bomber's explosion can be bucketed, but if MM predicts that, he can punish with a hit/grab right after the explosion gets absorbed.

MM has got the advantage in most other areas IMO. His aerial disjoints outrange G&W's and he has a lot of good punishes for G&W's air approach options. Uair shenanigans don't really work on MM because he can just use Leaf Shield, which will protect his landing either way. MM is much heavier than G&W, and he can abuse G&W's lack of a decent projectile by zoning him, making it hard for G&W to get in for a KO.
G&W's dash attack and usmash (dat invincibility frames) are good as always, but those are the only two moves that feel really dangerous aside from fully charged bucket. In general MM will just have an easier time racking up damage and sealing stocks than G&W if he plays a good zoning game and respects G&W's bucket and usmash when going for kills.

 

[FullMoon]

Yup you think you have an awesome character with a cool looking design but you only get a cool looking character. .....damn you greninja.

I dunno, I think Greninja is pretty awesome with a cool design.

 

[Asdioh]

First, yes I meant hurtbox or whatever.

Second, I mainly use Mega Man. It's one of those things where I'm aware that his bair and fair have animations that are a bit larger than the actual hitboxes of those attacks, but I kept finding myself just completely missing attacks I thought would have definitely hit Greninja. One example is that Greninja is charging Water Shuriken, I jump over and think I should be able to land a fair, except it just completely whiffs and I get a face full of spinning water.

Another example is that I tried to slide into Greninja as it was starting up a down smash. I actually somehow slid through Greninja without it taking any damage, and then got hit right after.

I completely forgot, since I haven't played against many Greninjas lately. When the game was new though I played against a Greninja all the time, and I'm pretty sure Water Shuriken has some sort of invincibility/intangibility. I'm not sure if it's intended or a bug, but I know for a fact that many, many times I went for a grab when he was using the projectile, and it just went right through him, and sometimes he was able to punish the grab lag.

 

[Terotrous]

Doesn't Yoshi's downthrow at least combo? If your throws at least include something that combos, and the rest do damage and put your opponent where you want them... that's not bad. Especially in Yoshi's case, since he has a projectile to use after he throws them away.

AFAIK the entire cast can escape by double jumping. Might work at some percents vs fast-fallers. Egg is a chase of sorts, but it can also be evaded at most percents.

More like splitting hairs, a kill throw is a kill throw.
Throw in Rob, Zard, and others and you've got quite a few kill throws. Zard is really interesting given he is a fast dashing heavy who has long grab range as well.

That specific list was just the back throws that kill. Of course, Rob Upthrow is also a kill throw, and Zard Dthrow can kill eventually.

Really, KOing at about 150% in optimal circumstances is standard for throws now.
Ness's is the only exception.

ROB also definitely kills before 150, his kills at like 120 if fresh.

Anyway, I just can't really count something as a reliable kill move if it doesn't kill until 150. That's more like a secondary kill option if you can't get a kill with one of your primary kill moves. Especially in the post-vectoring world, opponents should not generally be living past 120-130.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

AFAIK the entire cast can escape by double jumping. Might work at some percents vs fast-fallers. Egg is a chase of sorts, but it can also be evaded at most percents.



That specific list was just the back throws that kill. Of course, Rob Upthrow is also a kill throw, and Zard Dthrow can kill eventually.



ROB also definitely kills before 150, his kills at like 120 if fresh.

Anyway, I just can't really count something as a reliable kill move if it doesn't kill until 150. That's more like a secondary kill option if you can't get a kill with one of your primary kill moves. Especially in the post-vectoring world, opponents should not generally be living past 120-130.

does it count if one uses the pummel at around 145? piy gets like a free 4 and can then kill with f throw. and being a pit main trust me thats his most reliable way of taking a stock.

 

[Antonykun]

I get the feeling that in the coming months/years people are going to warm up to Swordfighter. They have something for a lot of scenarios on top of a very powerful neutral game. Unfortunately people still think that bottom tier = godawful/unplayable but once we get more footage of Swordfighter kicking butt (whenever that may be) people will see them do better.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm curious again, what's so good about Pikachu? I've faced quite a few of them now and while I guess they might just not be pros, I don't really what's so great about him. I'm not sure if it's because Greninja is a bad MU for him or what, but from what I've seen so far he looks pretty unimpressive to me.

Also I don't quite understnad all the Quick Attack use I see, what is it used for?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm curious again, what's so good about Pikachu? I've faced quite a few of them now and while I guess they might just not be pros, I don't really what's so great about him. I'm not sure if it's because Greninja is a bad MU for him or what, but from what I've seen so far he looks pretty unimpressive to me.

Also I don't quite understnad all the Quick Attack use I see, what is it used for?

just looj up anything with esam and ur question will be answerd.

 

[LonkQ]

Playing against Pikachu, it feels like almost everything he does is difficult to punish. Certain characters can't even shield grab him very well because he low profiles a lot of attacks after landing from an aerial.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Playing against Pikachu, it feels like almost everything he does is difficult to punish. Certain characters can't even shield grab him very well because he low profiles a lot of attacks after landing from an aerial.

most correct shield grabs dont have ur opponent land before the grab.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm curious again, what's so good about Pikachu? I've faced quite a few of them now and while I guess they might just not be pros, I don't really what's so great about him. I'm not sure if it's because Greninja is a bad MU for him or what, but from what I've seen so far he looks pretty unimpressive to me.

Also I don't quite understnad all the Quick Attack use I see, what is it used for?

I'm not really sure how greninja can pose a threat to pikachu. But he has one of the better projectiles in the game a fast ass jab small hurt box. He's pretty quick on the ground. Has a pretty good combo game. Tjolt is a good projectile. He has a good edgeguarding game. His aerials are really good as well. I'm not too sure about QA.

 

[Shaya]

greninja hits very low to the ground on a lot of his moves and has a reliable projectile for applying some pressure to pikachu from any/most parts of the stage.

 

[Nobie]

I just realized something about Greninja today. When fighting against Greninja it often feels like Greninja has this strong command of the air due to its movement speed, but just messing around in training mode today I noticed that it actually has really bad aerial deceleration. Once it commits to a jump, it more or less has to see it through, which might hurt it in certain matchups in particular.

 

[TL?]

I'm curious again, what's so good about Pikachu? I've faced quite a few of them now and while I guess they might just not be pros, I don't really what's so great about him. I'm not sure if it's because Greninja is a bad MU for him or what, but from what I've seen so far he looks pretty unimpressive to me.

Also I don't quite understnad all the Quick Attack use I see, what is it used for?

Out of all the perceived top tiers, I feel like he is the most difficult so he may not seem that threatening outside of the better pikachu players. But keep in mind that the effectiveness of a character shouldn't be judged on the average or random users of that character but by the best users. You have to work with a lot of stubby normals, and it can be a little harder to set up kills on good players. But his stubby normals are actually good if used properly and he can kill just fine if you know what you're doing. I feel like he's good because he's solid all around and not for relying on a few obviously overpowered/braindead moves. Although quick attack or 1 frame thunder might fit that description, they aren't quite a diddy up air where the application is super obvious. He's certainly not some super technical and impossible to use character, it's just the other good characters are for the most part easier or have more easy to abuse moves at low/mid level play. What's truly good about pikachu only seems to come through when watching really good pikachu players like ESAM who knows the whole character very well.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I just realized something about Greninja today. When fighting against Greninja it often feels like Greninja has this strong command of the air due to its movement speed, but just messing around in training mode today I noticed that it actually has really bad aerial deceleration. Once it commits to a jump, it more or less has to see it through, which might hurt it in certain matchups in particular.

that hurts most mu in general. bowser loves commintment