Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[JPOBS]

i've started playing marth cuz he's fun and stuff. but coming from a spacies main, it's very frustrating dealing with marth's particular weaknesses (like dieing off the top early and trouble getting back from the ledge)

was there anything in particular you have to learn as a marth player that makes you go "this game is SO much easier now that I have this under my belt" ?

hopefully you get what im saying. not looking for some amazing secret, just maybe something that's really valuable to know/use that a newer marth could probably work with :]

 

[Dart!]

i've started playing marth cuz he's fun and stuff. but coming from a spacies main, it's very frustrating dealing with marth's particular weaknesses (like dieing off the top early and trouble getting back from the ledge)

was there anything in particular you have to learn as a marth player that makes you go "this game is SO much easier now that I have this under my belt" ?

hopefully you get what im saying. not looking for some amazing secret, just maybe something that's really valuable to know/use that a newer marth could probably work with :]

stop jumping. stop fsmashing. dtilt more, waveland onto the edge of the stage for a mixup if rolling/standing up/wavedashing through/your only good ledge moves fail. Lcancel dair everytime. Grab more. CC grab.

During this time you will be: Underrated, perceived as worse than you actually are, asking yourself why you don't go the easy route and play spacies or sheik.

When all is said and one you will feel: Better about yourself for playing a fun and disrespected char, justified when you finally show up all the haters.

 

[Metal Reeper]

i've started playing marth cuz he's fun and stuff. but coming from a spacies main, it's very frustrating dealing with marth's particular weaknesses (like dieing off the top early and trouble getting back from the ledge)

was there anything in particular you have to learn as a marth player that makes you go "this game is SO much easier now that I have this under my belt" ?

hopefully you get what im saying. not looking for some amazing secret, just maybe something that's really valuable to know/use that a newer marth could probably work with :]

Empty short hops with Marth are amazing. You have the reaction time to late Fair if anyone comes in close. It's very good. From what I've seen (On shield) Dtilt>retreating fair looks very legit and safe.
There are tons of other things like this, of course.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

stop jumping. stop fsmashing. dtilt more, waveland onto the edge of the stage for a mixup if rolling/standing up/wavedashing through/your only good ledge moves fail. Lcancel dair everytime. Grab more. CC grab.

During this time you will be: Underrated, perceived as worse than you actually are, asking yourself why you don't go the easy route and play spacies or sheik.

When all is said and one you will feel: Better about yourself for playing a fun and disrespected char, justified when you finally show up all the haters.

This is a really good post.

I needed that bit of inspiration

 

[Divinokage]

stop jumping. stop fsmashing. dtilt more, waveland onto the edge of the stage for a mixup if rolling/standing up/wavedashing through/your only good ledge moves fail. Lcancel dair everytime. Grab more. CC grab.

During this time you will be: Underrated, perceived as worse than you actually are, asking yourself why you don't go the easy route and play spacies or sheik.

When all is said and one you will feel: Better about yourself for playing a fun and disrespected char, justified when you finally show up all the haters.

I thought you said you were a spacie slayer.. I didn't see that at the big house, what's going on? =)

 

[Niko45]

Marth in general is a spacie slayer. It's what keeps this character alive. He doesn't get enough credit for how well he does against spacies and is overrated in tons of floaty matchups.

@jpobs - hmm, one particular breakthrough? Idk, so specific but philosophy wise I'd say swing to hit things, not just to hit air.

Marth 101:

Neutral game: Retreat fair, dtilt, grab are your staples. Keep these in rotation. Aside from retreat fair, or the very occasional overshot nair, do not ever jump while your opponent is grounded.

Getting off the edge: People tend to either smother you with a hitbox as soon as you get up or sit back and try to punish a whiffed ledge hop fair or something like that. If they are smothering - roll up from the ledge is deceptive and gets by them and can flip momentum instantly as you can turn around and get a grab or hit near the ledge. If they are sitting back, waveland in place at the very edge of the stage and react to what they do with your usual stuff (retreat fair, dtilt/fsmash, grab).

Recovering: Save your jump, save your side Bs, do not swing at the ledge when they are on it.

Punishing: You basically want to get tippers or dairs for finishers. If you can skip straight to this, awesome, in most cases you will want to get an up tilt (or 3) first in order to eventually get to these, though.

 

[GooeyBanana]

I like the "or 3" part xD

If only I could stop jumping as Marth =S

 

[Mew2King]

im actually not bad vs falco at all, I just have a mental block when I go into matches thinking I'm going to lose. Vs falco's that aren't top, I can often 4 stock them (i actually did that 3rd round gen2 pools). The character played without mistakes is just stupid. I don't think marth has enough options to fight him evenly, unless they powershield most of the lasers back, then that's totally different story.

 

[Dart!]

I thought you said you were a spacie slayer.. I didn't see that at the big house, what's going on? =)

oh, johns. i dropped game 3 against weon on a suicide spike that didn't spike. oh well. i beat raynex but unknown was too patient, my edgeguarding and combos need work. You wouldn't have placed that well there either.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol yes I would of, I'm better. =) And I didn't decide to talk **** about how good I am in something and then get proven wrong. But.. that's just how it is, and that's what I do. I call people out when they can't back up their words. =)

 

[Dart!]

lol no but that's fine.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I notice you didn't mention that weon-x let you run back the 3rd game because he didn't want a cheesy win but you lost that again anyway ;(

 

[Divinokage]

I notice you didn't mention that weon-x let you run back the 3rd game because he didn't want a cheesy win but you lost that again anyway ;(

Oh really? Damn.. not letting on on every detail just to "look" good, is that it? lol.

 

[Niko45]

Oh **** I just saw dart vs raynex - rockin that niko tag good looks kid!

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I notice you didn't mention that weon-x let you run back the 3rd game because he didn't want a cheesy win but you lost that again anyway ;(

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

^---- in caps

 

[.Chipmunk.]

The boards are a silly place to argue. Let's keep in civil and keep the thread what it's supposed to be.

 

[Aber]

M2k you're probably not even bad against falco and puff for that matter......You're just bad against the 3-4 ppl in the world who happen to be slightly better than you

 

[JPOBS]

stop jumping. stop fsmashing. dtilt more, waveland onto the edge of the stage for a mixup if rolling/standing up/wavedashing through/your only good ledge moves fail. Lcancel dair everytime. Grab more. CC grab.

During this time you will be: Underrated, perceived as worse than you actually are, asking yourself why you don't go the easy route and play spacies or sheik.

When all is said and one you will feel: Better about yourself for playing a fun and disrespected char, justified when you finally show up all the haters.

Great post. thanks.

L-cancelling Dair is ****ing impossible :|

Empty short hops with Marth are amazing. You have the reaction time to late Fair if anyone comes in close. It's very good. From what I've seen (On shield) Dtilt>retreating fair looks very legit and safe.
There are tons of other things like this, of course.

I empty hop with marth way more than any character. I think its cuz with marth I'm like "yo if i get thi grab, its done son" whereas with spacies im like "lol shields? time for DA PRESSAWH"

Marth in general is a spacie slayer. It's what keeps this character alive. He doesn't get enough credit for how well he does against spacies and is overrated in tons of floaty matchups.

@jpobs - hmm, one particular breakthrough? Idk, so specific but philosophy wise I'd say swing to hit things, not just to hit air.

Marth 101:

Neutral game: Retreat fair, dtilt, grab are your staples. Keep these in rotation. Aside from retreat fair, or the very occasional overshot nair, do not ever jump while your opponent is grounded.

Getting off the edge: People tend to either smother you with a hitbox as soon as you get up or sit back and try to punish a whiffed ledge hop fair or something like that. If they are smothering - roll up from the ledge is deceptive and gets by them and can flip momentum instantly as you can turn around and get a grab or hit near the ledge. If they are sitting back, waveland in place at the very edge of the stage and react to what they do with your usual stuff (retreat fair, dtilt/fsmash, grab).

Recovering: Save your jump, save your side Bs, do not swing at the ledge when they are on it.

Punishing: You basically want to get tippers or dairs for finishers. If you can skip straight to this, awesome, in most cases you will want to get an up tilt (or 3) first in order to eventually get to these, though.

another good post. thanks for the insight.

 

[Wake]

Sooo, counter oos?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

M2k you're probably not even bad against falco and puff for that matter......You're just bad against the 3-4 ppl in the world who happen to be slightly better than you

What M2K needs to do is just play the characters that those people have a hard time with, like PP does bad in the falco ditto, Hbox clearly can't fight ylink...etc.

L-cancelling Dair is ****ing impossible :|

I have the sneaky suspicion that the timing for l-cancelling the dair is later than the timing for l-cancelling everything else. Not that it is, it just feels that way. Probably because marth's knees raise up during the attack and every character lands on their knees. (again, untested on my part, it just feels that way). Try delaying the l-cancel by a few frames and you'll have better luck with it.

Sooo, counter oos?

Counter OoS is fun to pull off, but I personally don't use it that much. I would much rather usmash OoS or dair Oos, etc.

 

[Metal Reeper]

WD OoS>Fsmash.

 

[Winston]

Didn't Taj use counter oos to gimp Mango's Falco once?

It seems viable as a gimmick, if not something you'd want to use regularly.

 

[Metal Reeper]

What's the frame data on counter OoS?

 

[OverLord]

Counter OoS is cool.


But "PP does bad in Falco dittos".

WHAT?!? O_o'

 

[Mew2King]

M2k you're probably not even bad against falco and puff for that matter......You're just bad against the 3-4 ppl in the world who happen to be slightly better than you

nah I really don't think this is true, cuz when Cactuar uses Puff he does better against me than when he uses Fox. I can also beat Cactuar's fox most of the time with my falco but we can go back and forth in falco dittos. Jman actually gives me a harder time with Falco than his Fox over half the time, and his Fox is clearly his better character vs other people.and I know these players have better Fox's than they do Falco's and jigglypuffs. Vidjo's Puff does better against me than his Peach and Fox do most of the time, even though he barely uses her. So that's why I think I'm bad against Falco and Jigglypuff. My strengths of comboing, gimping, and edge guarding are just all taken away from me against Puff (that's my theory on why I think), and as for falco, idk why I'm so much worse vs him than Fox, but it's pretty significant for me for some reason. It's not even so much that I'm bad against puff and falco, cuz I'm not really -BAD- against anyone. I'm simply COMPARATIVELY bad. As in, compared to all the other characters, her and Falco are the ones I'm the worst at. If it was just from 1 person I wouldn't say this, but it seems true to me for a variety of different players that have played these characters against me.

as far as them being the best characters, I've thought Falco was better than Fox almost the entire time dating as far back as early 2005, 6+ years ago. And it was from a very wide variety of different players. I've played all the best Fox's and best Falco's, and the falcos overall gave me a much harder time. At the same time, they also won tournaments with these characters. Zanguzen was my first tourney loss, and beat me for a while. Then PC with Falco beat me tons of times (the vast majority were not on video, but he was the main person that beat me at tournaments for a very long time). If I had to take an honest guess (I have no clue if this is true or not, but it is what it feels like), I'd say about half of my tourney losses in Melee combined are just to Falcos. I could be way off for all I know, but it definitely feels that way, and it's been like that since I started tournaments.

As far as puff, I think I'm just comparatively bad against her COMPARED to how I handle other matchups. Example, I dominate Marth's, badly. I've even (Only ONCE but still) 4 stocked taj before in tourney, and I beat Ken convincingly at 2 different tournaments in dittos just before my marth's prime was kicking in. (This is because me and Cactuar used to play marth dittos a lot. At that year, 2007, I actually could JV 5 stock Marths, A LOT. I did this at least 20 times that year without taking damage, and I 3-4 stocked most every Marth I played at that point in both dittos and I could **** them with Falcon, Fox, and Sheik as well. I went as far as to challenge Ken to a 50 dollar money match against all 4 of those characters I just named above, but he wouldn't do it. After Evo World he went around claiming on the boards how he was the best Marth, but refused to accept any of my money match challenges.

Anyway, as I was saying about matchups, I'm really good against Foxes if I'm playing on point (with a WIDE variety of characters now since I know how he works and how to abuse him). I don't really lose to Falcon's and Ganons (although my characters all beat them), Sheik and ICs I'm mehh against (i don't think I'm great vs sheik or ICs tbh, average at best comparatively to my other MUs... idk), and I'm good vs Peach's (only lose to Armada and last 3 times were close).

As far as falco dittos go, I played PP in 1 friendly ever (like half a year ago or so) and he won by like 1 stock low % or so (his falco is way better than mine though) so I would say he's kind of bad at the ditto, but in general I think I am too. I think this because when I play cactuar his falco can beat me in dittos like half the time or so, but when I play falco against his fox or marth, I usually beat his falco and I usually can **** his marth. The same holds true with Jman. Jman's fox has 3 stocked my falco but also my falco has 3 stocked his Fox, and the last time I fought Jman's marth i 2 and then 3 stock low %ed him (at No Johns pretty recently). However, when he falco dittoed me he 2 stocked me. I hate that character =/ I don't care what anyone says, I think he's OPed as hell, but I'll admit I'm also pretty wack against him comparatively

I guess it depends how you define bad. If the player isn't a top player, I very frequently can 4 stock them, even falcos and Jiggs. If the player is good, I struggle with falcos and puffs, but usually not other MUs (if I do, it's not to close to the same degree).

 

[Dr Peepee]

m2k I wouldn't take our Falco ditto friendly that seriously. =p

I do need work on the matchup though, but it's not out of my grasp or anything. My foundation in the matchup has gotten pretty solid lately so I'll just go study specifics and be fine I bet. The big problem will be the guy that uses the Falco more than the matchup.

I haven't played a good Falco in a while so I guess I'm just talking out of my butt atm but I feel much better overall and vs Falco so I guess we'll see.


not even gonna comment on the rest of this lol.

 

[SwiftBass]

good read

=)

 

[Aber]

Yeah good read m2k lol I enjoyed that.....And that's a good point that COMPARATIVELY you are worse vs. those characters than others. True.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

in my opinion you cant just use a few occurrences to judge someone. a single event such as when you took pp to last stock in a falco ditto should not allow you to determine his ability to play the matchup...

 

[Winston]

What's the frame data on counter OoS?

Marth's jump is airborne on frame 5 and counter is invincible starting from the first frame, so it can come out as fast as 5 frames

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

m2k at 0c3 2007 marth ditto friendlies... i definately saw a lot of 4stock/jv 5 stockage. it was like he saw the game in matrix code

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Marth's jump is airborne on frame 5 and counter is invincible starting from the first frame, so it can come out as fast as 5 frames

Can't you cancel the jump with a counter? Kinda like fox can with shine? I know I can counter with Marth without leaving the ground OoS. That would make it faster than frame 5.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is there a different approach to playing spacies on smaller stages (FoD, BF, YI) vs larger stages (PS1, FD, DL)? Or rather, how do you space spacies on smaller stages vs larger stages?

On larger stages its easier to get around spacies by either retreating further back or rushing across platforms. On smaller stages though, that strategy does not seem to work very well.

 

[Mew2King]

in my opinion you cant just use a few occurrences to judge someone. a single event such as when you took pp to last stock in a falco ditto should not allow you to determine his ability to play the matchup...

yeah I know, but mango beat pp in them pretty convincingly when otherwise they are pretty even falcos outside of that, and axe and shiz also beat him in the apex falco round robin (and i think axe also beat him in singles with falco? or maybe it was only singles and not the round robin). I know it's not much to go off of, but considering what I know about how PP is at most other matchups (he ***** ganons, falcons, foxs, marths, sheiks, peachs, jiggs, but can lose in these) he's comparatively definitely the weakest in these based off the data I have. Besides Samus I guess.

and yeah, Killaforcash, that's definitely the best I was. That was actually the same day I 3 and 4 stocked taj (usually it's 2 then 3 at the previous 2 tournaments). I was freaking on fire in marth dittos that day, I do remember jv 5 stocking people that day more than once in that matchup. I definitely consider that my marth's prime, even though my best stuff wasn't on video. Like vs PC in the finals honestly i was choking extremely hard, it was not even comparable to what I was in friendlies that day.

Remember that crew battle vs crazy return? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsqlstAQeg8

I was better than that most of the day honestly (I think it has to do with my confidence level or how much fun I'm having or some combination of the two?), but since it's not recorded no one (like armada doesn't know but I really cannot blame him for that) takes me seriously.

 

[kevo]

I always go "awwww" when you switch to Sheik in game 2 when your Marth loses to a high level Falco or Jiggs. What does Sheik have that makes you more comfortable in the Falco matchup? Are you more comfortable in that matchup, or is it more of just frustration with Marth?

edit: I definitely believe that your Marth made you #1 in the world, hands down, back then. There's a reason I play Marth, you know. >.>

 

[Mew2King]

i just switch when i get mad at myself. I can't play angry marth lol. My marth always loses to everyone lately =/ sheik does better.

honestly I don't even have a main right now. My falco is prolly better than my fox and marth right now, in at least like half my MUs. I don't have a main at all honestly. I get bored of each character too fast and enjoy too many so whenever I'm playing I never use just one character like every other successful player at melee (besides mango). I should be doing that, but I just can't bring myself to. idk. I Wish I had that problem in brawl <_< I can't stand playing anyone but MK honestly it's so boring. Everyone else (that is a good character) is so lame, you can't even do death combos, I don't even understand how people can enjoy playing half the chars in that game honestly.

 

[Pi]

samus is fun to beat on wildly. it's like falco vs everybody with how mindless you can raep her.

 

[MasterShake]

What do you do when you're in a slump?

How do you expand on creativity?

How can you start to think about the game more analytically, while playing?

These are some walls I'm dealing with lately.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

m2k if you sat down and freindlied pp/mango/hbox for a long time playing marth or shiek do u think you could get over ur mental block

 

[Winston]

What do you do when you're in a slump?

How do you expand on creativity?

How can you start to think about the game more analytically, while playing?

These are some walls I'm dealing with lately.

I try to get back to basics rather than try to expand creatively, at least at first. Then I try to identify one recurring problem I'm having in neutral. Each time I get hit, I try to figure out why I got hit, and if I can see that one problem comes up a lot I can try to fix it. Sometimes that requires me to use more creative tools, but usually I can address it by using the basic tools better. If I get that problem worked out I can try to find another.

It's the super reductionist approach, but I think it's what works best for me. Idk if it's good in general