DuckPimp
Smash Ace
falcons do it :D
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
No one besides me. Got it?
Aber
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2010
- Messages
- 276
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I mean, where are you hitting her in this scenario? Tipper jab has a pretty good knockback on even 0% Puff. You can double jab on the nontipper while she is still in the air (I'd have to test this on DI down at 0% but it works in game a lot).
I can't say the frame data either; I think it'd be rather tough to calculate Puff's fall frames after the jab. If they are at higher %s (anything higher than 15 and she gets swatted pretty far), Marth definitely has frame advantage in the DI down scenario. I don't know about the super low %s but whatever it is, it can't be enough for Puff to punish...
It takes a lot of practice to get the spacing and timing down, but seriously Niko, try it out in friendlies. Its godlike.
I like Ftilting Puff more(since it's all one hit damage moves anyway and still pretty fast). Jab's aight sometimes, but I prefer using it when she's shielding to keep her there/catch her jumping out once in a while.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
GTFO Falco. Lol jk.
Ftilt should....always be used instead of Fsmash unless you really think you're gonna get that tip.
Ftilt should....always be used instead of Fsmash unless you really think you're gonna get that tip.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Yeah ftilt is great too. Choosing one over the other depends on the situation.
Fsmash is more damage and it's a good way to keep Puff honest about trying to weave closer to you than she should so sometimes I just spam that move because it's hard for Puff to punish if you just throw it out there lol.
Archangel
Smash Hero
I started using Ftilt more after it came to me that I NEVER use them unless by mistake....It's actually a really good option.
Van.
Smash Ace
does anyone know if lvl 4 cpu's struggle optimally?
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
M2K says lvl 4's are...practicable. Wait....practicable is a word?
Supposedly the DI...I play 1's.
Supposedly the DI...I play 1's.
Dart!
Smash Master
tipper on shield is the only safe on shield fsmash.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i don't think he meant on-shield
i think he meant just do it unpredictably, soooorta as a spacing/walling/get-the-****-away-from-me move because if they're not trying to punish you for it, it's hard for them to punish you hard for it
which i'm not sure if i'd agree with
but whatever
i think he meant just do it unpredictably, soooorta as a spacing/walling/get-the-****-away-from-me move because if they're not trying to punish you for it, it's hard for them to punish you hard for it
which i'm not sure if i'd agree with
but whatever
Van.
Smash Ace
lvl 1s always DI behind marth- practicing the cg against them is useless.
lvl 4s vary it unpredictably, so you have to learn to turn around or pivot on reaction.
Niko45
Smash Master
Even a non tip fsmash that's towards the end of the sword can only really be punished with a bair or fair oos which you can CC and minimize the punish or even get your own punish out of it.
The big difference between fsmash and ftilt is that the fsmash hitbox goes from high to low and takes longer to get out in front of Marth compared to ftilt which goes from low to high. This means at some spacings jiggs could stuff your fsmash with a move before it gets out where ftilt would have stuffed whatever jiggs was going to do.
@Blur - I was just playing this matchup for like an hour straight the other day coincidentally and was playing around with jabs to take stage away from Jiggs. I still agree completely with you except for the fact that...it doesn't actually work. If it catches them off guard and they miss the DI then it's awesome but it's really easy for them to DI this to the ground where even if neither of you can punish you have jiggs ducking at your feet which isn't what you want and you'll end up needing to retreat yourself.
@PP - Interesting, isn't jabbing jiggs shield really unsafe?
The big difference between fsmash and ftilt is that the fsmash hitbox goes from high to low and takes longer to get out in front of Marth compared to ftilt which goes from low to high. This means at some spacings jiggs could stuff your fsmash with a move before it gets out where ftilt would have stuffed whatever jiggs was going to do.
@Blur - I was just playing this matchup for like an hour straight the other day coincidentally and was playing around with jabs to take stage away from Jiggs. I still agree completely with you except for the fact that...it doesn't actually work. If it catches them off guard and they miss the DI then it's awesome but it's really easy for them to DI this to the ground where even if neither of you can punish you have jiggs ducking at your feet which isn't what you want and you'll end up needing to retreat yourself.
@PP - Interesting, isn't jabbing jiggs shield really unsafe?
Yeah but you're not trying to jab Jiggz shield really. If you DO jab it, then you'll be calling the jump out wrong. BUT, it's a good idea to think about it in terms of Puff having to sit in shield longer or not as long as a typical time you wait before jumping OOS because jab will cover that timing.
UGH that was horribly worded
OKAY basically you want to hit puff when she jumps out. If you don't then you want her to have to guess when to jump out, and she shouldn't be so focused on punishing your jab because you could do the jab to stuff her at any time and she should be afraid to shield. You shouldn't be afraid of a shielding opponent because you have more range than their OOS options so throwing a move out so they respect it once in a while is generally pretty safe if you're tricky about it.
UGH that was horribly worded
OKAY basically you want to hit puff when she jumps out. If you don't then you want her to have to guess when to jump out, and she shouldn't be so focused on punishing your jab because you could do the jab to stuff her at any time and she should be afraid to shield. You shouldn't be afraid of a shielding opponent because you have more range than their OOS options so throwing a move out so they respect it once in a while is generally pretty safe if you're tricky about it.
Winston
Smash Master
I think it's hard to punish if it doesn't hit their shield and they didn't predict it. Jiggs is pretty slow, so if it didn't hit (and she didn't hit you) her she was probably moving away from you or something. Plus, there's a little delay time where they have to realize that you just randomly fsmashed like a moron and process that. The absence of the shield hitstun makes it a lot harder to react in time
Niko45
Smash Master
PP what about Jiggs rolling at you oos? That's kind of a bigger concern imo.
Idk i don't really like to swat shields cause I'd rather be uncommitted to anything in order to react to what they will eventually do or just straight up get that grab.
Idk i don't really like to swat shields cause I'd rather be uncommitted to anything in order to react to what they will eventually do or just straight up get that grab.
Well if you never establish the threat of your move then you're not very threatening imo. If I was playing you and knew you wouldn't swing at me then wouldn't I feel safe in my shield all the time? Isn't that bad?
I wish Puff would roll into me....her roll is kinda bad and chances are my jab could hit that by accident anyway if we're still talking jab only lol. It's not like I just sit there only jabbing or anything, but making her afraid of me shouldn't make her think rolling into me is safe if I'm MOSTLY waiting and reacting like you want to do. If jiggz rolls anywhere it'll be away.
I wish Puff would roll into me....her roll is kinda bad and chances are my jab could hit that by accident anyway if we're still talking jab only lol. It's not like I just sit there only jabbing or anything, but making her afraid of me shouldn't make her think rolling into me is safe if I'm MOSTLY waiting and reacting like you want to do. If jiggz rolls anywhere it'll be away.
Riddlebox
Smash Journeyman
Hey guys, if you're interested: www.twitchtv.com/eschamptv
the stream for the Melee tournament at A&C right now =) Ft Raynex, Unknown, I.B, Weonx, Tect, Europhoria.
the stream for the Melee tournament at A&C right now =) Ft Raynex, Unknown, I.B, Weonx, Tect, Europhoria.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
so pretty much, you're going back to step 1?
it seems like we're all ASSUMING that jiggs is going to watch out and punish our every f-smash anyway
and you're saying we need to give them a reason to do so
Well Jiggz can't merely float around and just wait for Fsmashes to punish. It's just not feasible when you have to move in different ways/inside Fsmash's range to get in on Marth anyway.
If you're playing as Jiggz, and you want to get in on Marth, wouldn't you want to know how likely an Fsmash is before playing around Marth in that range or not? If you observe that Marth won't throw them out then you get to stay on top of him much easier since Fsmash covers the most range but it won't exist technically. By Fsmash'ing you force jiggz to take Fsmash into account when spacing, and that's when you use it less because that's when she'll be expecting it. I'm not even saying Fsmash often if you wanna look at it like that, but the threat of Marth's biggest move can be established somewhat safely in that manner here, so why not do it?
If you're worried about Jiggz always punishing you for Fsmash'ing, then I suggest giving my strategy a try before writing it off. If you have given it a try, then I'd only ask if you changed up when you used it.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i agree with/get what you're saying, actually.
but i feel that most mid/upper level players aren't smart enough to go through all of those steps. i feel like they just go straight to step 2 and just give marth's f-smash that much respect without him earning it.
maybe i'm just being a negative nancy myself about the community; either way, your point is definitely valid under some circumstances, and i'll keep that in mind for the next road-block i reach
makoforce
Smash Ace
Why dont marths do a rising fair and then DJ it seems like a pretty solid mixup/Mindgame.
Winston
Smash Master
I feel like truly giving fsmash that much respect is a big cost in terms of how you can space against Marth. I don't think you can maintain the "generally" good spacing in the matchup if you are that focused on not getting hit by fsmash and punishing it.i agree with/get what you're saying, actually.
but i feel that most mid/upper level players aren't smart enough to go through all of those steps. i feel like they just go straight to step 2 and just give marth's f-smash that much respect without him earning it.
maybe i'm just being a negative nancy myself about the community; either way, your point is definitely valid under some circumstances, and i'll keep that in mind for the next road-block i reach
If you never fsmash, I feel that most mid/upper level players won't "play around" the fsmash in the situations where they actually have to go out of their way to do so, because if they did they would be losing out on value.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
jab is a really good move
I ****ing love jab.
Phoenix~Lament
Smash Ace
Jabbing is great.
something i've been experimenting with.. at high percents, sometimes you can fthrow -> wd dmash. if you tipper they're dead. i've been trying it on fox,
and marth has such a fun grabgame on puff. you can land dtilts, ftilts, jabs, tipper fsmash, tipper usmash, utilt, spike them, fair/uair, regrab etcetc. marth has an answer to almost every single thing puff can do after being thrown. of course, di and % dependent.
the problem is finding a puff that'll let you grab them :\
something i've been experimenting with.. at high percents, sometimes you can fthrow -> wd dmash. if you tipper they're dead. i've been trying it on fox,
and marth has such a fun grabgame on puff. you can land dtilts, ftilts, jabs, tipper fsmash, tipper usmash, utilt, spike them, fair/uair, regrab etcetc. marth has an answer to almost every single thing puff can do after being thrown. of course, di and % dependent.
the problem is finding a puff that'll let you grab them :\
Niko45
Smash Master
Peach is ****ing gay. Just had to say that
Lol. Peach is double rainbows.
Dart!
Smash Master
the only matchup i go into with 0 confidence now is puff. why is that?
i love every matchup in this game except that one for now :/
i love every matchup in this game except that one for now :/
Wake
Smash Master
Because Puff. :/
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
I happen to love fighting everybody but ffs. Gimme a peach or a puff or a ganon any day.
makoforce
Smash Ace
I like all the tough MU except puff even though im good vs her shes just not fun to fight as marth. Now give me a peach, falcon, sheik, or falco and im good
Dart!
Smash Master
samus is fun to beat on wildly. it's like falco vs everybody with how mindless you can raep her.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
MT_
Smash Ace
No Tai. I don't know what you're talking about.
t-iceman
Smash Journeyman
fthrow tipper dsmash works on fox if they di in on the fthrow i killed someone once because they had inwards di on the fthrow but then sdi'd the dsmash away. He died off the side on dreamland at 75% lol.
Dart!
Smash Master
i will have to try that. just another thing i can do to humiliate fox. has anyone tried forward b regrab on ledge to mindgame people?