2/3 things in this post are opinions with no factual backing.
*hint: the line that says ODIN is a statement of fact.
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Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 ('Terminal' - the 17th for Elite / 18th for non-Elite)
- Thread starter F8AL
- Start date
*hint: the line that says ODIN is a statement of fact.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Your argument just lost its credibility right there.
Something obviously didn't register with my above post. If snipers were as OP as you guys made them out to be we would see a plethora of snipers putting up amazing scores, but uhhh newsflash... we don't. The reason for this is because the sniper is obviously outclassed by both ARs and SMGs in this game.
Most of you guys just need to get over the fact that the shotgun sucks now. Maybe if so many people didn't whine about them in MW2 they wouldn't have gotten nerfed so heavily. This is just another reason why the CoD community is terrible. They never know what they want.
We're both spouting bull****, you just use more words and accomplish less. If what you said was true about snipers being overpowered, then it wouldn't bother me. I'd give my reasons, but I can't sway a mule's opinion.
No hard feelings though, Team SWF is the best and I love you guys still.
Not trollin' bro, thank you for backing this post with facts.
It's true that not all snipers put up amazing scores. But this can be attributed to small children with small brains who think that doing 360 no scopes will win them friends in real life. Anybody who actually "snipes" tends to do quite well in this game, as I've seen.
The line between "trickshotting" and "sniping" is becoming blurred. Check to see if the kids on your team are Y-Y-ing before every shot they take. This might affect their score.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
snipers being op is kind of debatable.
shotguns being garbage is kind of fact.
who needs a shotgun when you can use dual fmg9's and steady aim?
edit: getting on in like 10 minutes.
shotguns being garbage is kind of fact.
who needs a shotgun when you can use dual fmg9's and steady aim?
edit: getting on in like 10 minutes.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY2EqFzPzn8
edit: i just googled fmg9 and got this epic sounding documentary lol
edit: i just googled fmg9 and got this epic sounding documentary lol
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
Gotta admit there seems to be a load of good guns in this game. People love those akimbo secondaries but the super soaker does just as good a job without giving up a secondary.
I was going to use my prestige token to unlock the Stinger, but I think I might use it for the AK47 now cause I can live the the SMAW and Javelin for a while but not the UMP45 again, and I've gotten the super soaker to gold twice now and I'm getting a bit bored of it.
I was going to use my prestige token to unlock the Stinger, but I think I might use it for the AK47 now cause I can live the the SMAW and Javelin for a while but not the UMP45 again, and I've gotten the super soaker to gold twice now and I'm getting a bit bored of it.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
good. i like freedom of speech and i love have a competition of ideas.
p.s. is this face a hate crime?
edit: pluvia, i use the akimbo fmg9 as a side are to mk14. i feel like i handle any situation with no downsides.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Always up for a good debate/discussion/whatever. Unfortunately I don't have any concrete data to back up my claims I'm just talking based on my own personal experience with this game thus far.
Everyone has to be able to agree with me on this though... If snipers were indeed "flawless" as some of you claimed they were, wouldn't that mean snipers would be abused much more often than they are currently? Can we all agree that the sniper is far from the most popular weapon class in MW3 because despite their buffs, they still require a fairly high degree of skill, and aren't quite as overpowered as most of you claim them to be? If no, then my next question is why aren't they being used more?
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i predict that when this game has been out for like 5 more months, snipers with be like 3 times as common.
not saying i think they're op, i just think the learning curve is the biggest reason they aren't super popular right now. assault rifles and smgs are a little easier to grasp.
S
smash brawl player 99021
Guest
This is why I enjoy playing with Alex more: We focus on trying to win rather than going for absurd killstreaks. You captured one or two points I think, and stood next to one for a good 10 seconds.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
You jelly, Connor? The video was still amazing.
SwampertTheGreat
Smash Ace
Inb4everyonecallsmeakill*****.
Even though I'm normally one of the guys who rush b at the start. Ahyeahyeahyeah
But w/e slayers have roles unless your team is getting *****
S
smash brawl player 99021
Guest
i honestly have the most fun playing with him and encountering funny gamertags like 'Fuzzy Grandma' or 'Chilifart98'
people are waaaaay too serious.
BanjoKazooiePro
Smash Champion
Last thoughts on snipers. I hate arguing about them because it's mostly hopeless.
My opinion: make sniping like it was in black ops pre patch, right when the game was first released. Yes, no quickscoping, heavy sway the first second or two you're scoped in, and randomized bullet location when shot during that period of time. Of course they catered to the kids again and changed it, nothing out of the ordinary there, but the point is that they functioned like a sniper should function during that time. In MW3, they perform better at close range than shotguns do FFS.
It's frustrating only because it hinders gameplay in the sense that they just shouldn't perform that well at close range. When I use a shotgun or SMG and iTzRandumbSc0pezZz comes around the corner and quickscopes me before I can even get enough shots required to kill in him, it's pretty rage inducing because I picked an SMG or shotgun in the first place to do well at close range all to get killed by a sniper.
It doesn't make sense to me and it never will, so don't try and sway my opinion on this one because it won't happen as long as snipers are as powerful as they are now. There's so many arguments to both sides that as I said before, it's hopeless to argue about this, but that's just how I feel about them in a nutshell. I don't lose sleep over a meaningless video game such as Call of Duty, but I do in fact think I'd have more fun if they actually balanced them properly.
My opinion: make sniping like it was in black ops pre patch, right when the game was first released. Yes, no quickscoping, heavy sway the first second or two you're scoped in, and randomized bullet location when shot during that period of time. Of course they catered to the kids again and changed it, nothing out of the ordinary there, but the point is that they functioned like a sniper should function during that time. In MW3, they perform better at close range than shotguns do FFS.
It's frustrating only because it hinders gameplay in the sense that they just shouldn't perform that well at close range. When I use a shotgun or SMG and iTzRandumbSc0pezZz comes around the corner and quickscopes me before I can even get enough shots required to kill in him, it's pretty rage inducing because I picked an SMG or shotgun in the first place to do well at close range all to get killed by a sniper.
It doesn't make sense to me and it never will, so don't try and sway my opinion on this one because it won't happen as long as snipers are as powerful as they are now. There's so many arguments to both sides that as I said before, it's hopeless to argue about this, but that's just how I feel about them in a nutshell. I don't lose sleep over a meaningless video game such as Call of Duty, but I do in fact think I'd have more fun if they actually balanced them properly.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Ehh I have the most fun when I play well... To each his own I guess.
I hope to get a MOAB some day.
S
smash brawl player 99021
Guest
if you want realism, go play battlefield which is an 'online war simulator' instead of a first person shooter.
SwampertTheGreat
Smash Ace
I don't give two ***** about realism.
I just want balance
I just want balance
Master Xanthan
Smash Champion
This definitely.
Grandeza
Smash Master
Snipers are not overpowered. I'm not going to comment on whether or not quickscoping belongs in an FPS or not but it's crazy to think they're better than say an SMG close range(not even going to bring up the crappy shotguns). Quickscoping is a skill. One that takes practice to get good at. I worked my *** off to get good at sniping in MW2 and then had to forget everything I knew(exaggeration) once Black Ops came out and start again. I've been sniping for two years and I can't pull consistently good scores sniping. I go horribly negative quite often. I lose almost all close range battles because quickscoping up close is ****ing difficult. I have to scope in at a guy rather close to me, hope him shooting at me doesn't cause my scope to go off him and shoot hoping it one shots(I do concede that most sniper shots are one shots). That's why a lot of the time I try to either avoid close range confrontations or pull out a magnum. This crap that they're this all around amazing weapon is really just false. And sure, aim assist helps quickscopers, but to say it's not skillfull is just dishonest. If they were as many of you say, they'd be consistently at the top of the leaderboards. I'd much rather run into a sniper than a guy with an AR or SMG.
And just a sidenote. referring to every sniper as XxNoscopesxX or anything like that does nothing to further your argument. The name and age of a sniper means nothing. Just like calling them wannabe Grizz's means nothing. Grizz is a great player and pulls off some amazing games with snipers. And the "quickscoping" community and "trickshotting" community are not a blurred line generally like someone before said. A lot of the competitive sniping community despises trick shotting. I'm not sure why it annoys so many of you guys considering they're easy kills(unless you're playing against a full team in SnD)
So as a tl;dr:
-Snipers are NOT overpowered
-They are NOT the best close range weapon
-Quickscoping is NOT something anyone can pick up and do
-Trickshotting is not the same thing as quickscoping
-I completely understand your argument if you're arguing that it's unrealistic, but I disagree if you think it upsets balance/it's overpowered.
And just a sidenote. referring to every sniper as XxNoscopesxX or anything like that does nothing to further your argument. The name and age of a sniper means nothing. Just like calling them wannabe Grizz's means nothing. Grizz is a great player and pulls off some amazing games with snipers. And the "quickscoping" community and "trickshotting" community are not a blurred line generally like someone before said. A lot of the competitive sniping community despises trick shotting. I'm not sure why it annoys so many of you guys considering they're easy kills(unless you're playing against a full team in SnD)
So as a tl;dr:
-Snipers are NOT overpowered
-They are NOT the best close range weapon
-Quickscoping is NOT something anyone can pick up and do
-Trickshotting is not the same thing as quickscoping
-I completely understand your argument if you're arguing that it's unrealistic, but I disagree if you think it upsets balance/it's overpowered.
@TRG
You got that on me. If I ever say a sniper rifle is flawless, please correct me. OP != Flawless. And certainly, to some degree it takes skill to be able to use one at all ranges. The problem presents itself at the all ranges part, however. A gun that, when placed in the hands of a competent player, consistently kills in ONE shot at all ranges? Definitely OP. That would be like, if in Gears, the torque bow was a starting loadout weapon.
Another reason people may not use snipers is because they also recognize the OPness, or perhaps they don't want to be associated with trickshotters. Simply a possibility.
You got that on me. If I ever say a sniper rifle is flawless, please correct me. OP != Flawless. And certainly, to some degree it takes skill to be able to use one at all ranges. The problem presents itself at the all ranges part, however. A gun that, when placed in the hands of a competent player, consistently kills in ONE shot at all ranges? Definitely OP. That would be like, if in Gears, the torque bow was a starting loadout weapon.
Another reason people may not use snipers is because they also recognize the OPness, or perhaps they don't want to be associated with trickshotters. Simply a possibility.
Wretched
Dankness of Heart
BKP, that is dumb. Snipers shouldn't be useless. They aren't even good in this game when assault rifles kill within half of a second have no kick.
You get killed by like one sniper every game and that person had to work a lot harder than aiming down sights. I'm sick of the *****ing. The whole point of using snipers is that it is a way to challenge yourself, and you basically **** on that concept by saying that it takes no skill, BUT IT DOES. IT IS HARDER TO SNIPE THAN TO USE A NORMAL GUN EFFECTIVELY.
The game is balanced and sniping is almost terrible. I could just use the MK14 instead of using a sniper, but I like to challenge myself because of the fact that CoD is almost in no way a gauge of real skill or dedication.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Grandeza. Yeah, it ISN'T OVERPOWERED. It is unrealistic, but this game is in no way realistic. It isn't easy and it does take precision to much more of an extent to regular guns. And yes. I think trickshotting is the stupidest thing in the world. Not the same thing as quickscoping/competitive sniping.
You get killed by like one sniper every game and that person had to work a lot harder than aiming down sights. I'm sick of the *****ing. The whole point of using snipers is that it is a way to challenge yourself, and you basically **** on that concept by saying that it takes no skill, BUT IT DOES. IT IS HARDER TO SNIPE THAN TO USE A NORMAL GUN EFFECTIVELY.
The game is balanced and sniping is almost terrible. I could just use the MK14 instead of using a sniper, but I like to challenge myself because of the fact that CoD is almost in no way a gauge of real skill or dedication.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Grandeza. Yeah, it ISN'T OVERPOWERED. It is unrealistic, but this game is in no way realistic. It isn't easy and it does take precision to much more of an extent to regular guns. And yes. I think trickshotting is the stupidest thing in the world. Not the same thing as quickscoping/competitive sniping.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
Excellent post.
Hit the nail on the head. On top of this I'd also like to add that most of the MW3 maps thus far have not been very sniper friendly at all. It just makes it that much harder for them.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
You absolutely CANNOT use the fact that there isn't an abundance of quickscopers as a reason for why the sniper rifles are not overpowered in MW3. You can't. Why? Because Quickscoping isn't the easiest thing to do. It does take a bit of skill to pull off. Yeah, sniper haters, I said it. Quickscoping does, in general, take more skill than using an AR or something at closer ranges.
HOWEVER. You cannot use the difficulty of use to argue something as not being overpowered unless the skill in question is too difficult for it to be humanly possible to be consistent with. Let's do a Brawl comparison, cuz I get that game. Ice Climbers, at first glance, SUCK. They're not bottom tier or anything, but they're pretty bad when you look at them with at the surface. But, there's this hidden power in them, their infinite CG and desyncs. Are these difficult to do? Yes. Humanly impossible? No. People do them all the time. And THIS is what makes them amazing. One mistake = Massive damage/death. They have traps through desyncs, etc. etc. Point being, it's hard, but once the skills are mastered, MASSIVE rewards are reaped.
This is akin to the sniper in MW3. At first glance, wow, it's a Sniper. Cool. But then players learn to quickscope. Oh hey, it's a mini OHKO cannon that works at all ranges now. And THAT is why it's overpowered. Not because quickscoping is easy, but because, theoretically and realistically, in the hands of a skilled quickscoper, the sniper rifle is just that good. It has VERY little flaws in this case. And that's just wrong.
They're somewhat difficult to use efficiently. This does not mean they aren't OP, though.
-Yes they are.
-Close to it if the quickscoper is efficient.
-Valid.
-Derp.
-But it is.
The Real Gamer
Smash Hero
@Delta you're acting as if there's no risk involved as long as the person using the sniper is skilled. At close ranges they only have one bullet to get that kill (or 2/3 if the opponent sucks and depending on which sniper is used). If they miss the shot, they're dead simple as that. If they were able to get the kill then they deserved it. Not everyone is Grizz, so most of the time running around with a sniper trying to be him isn't going to do you any good in this game or for your team at all.
As for your Brawl comparison, yeah the ICs are good but just because they have a nice hidden power in the form of CG'ing, it still doesn't mean they're the best. There are other characters (or guns in this case) that outclass them.
EDIT: BTW I just sent everyone in the OP a friend request so if you see someone named XxSteadyEddyxX that's me, so accept it!
As for your Brawl comparison, yeah the ICs are good but just because they have a nice hidden power in the form of CG'ing, it still doesn't mean they're the best. There are other characters (or guns in this case) that outclass them.
EDIT: BTW I just sent everyone in the OP a friend request so if you see someone named XxSteadyEddyxX that's me, so accept it!
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
just played search for the first time in this game.
awesome.
hotarms' brother's clan/crew are the most stereotypical little kids screaming and singing into the mic and then call each other trash while spectating. lol i tend to go a little more try hard in search and the last match i was in, they all decided to stand on the well in seatown (offense spawn) and kill themselves when someone tried to kill them.
i learned how much fun search is in this game, i'd been avoiding any objective based modes so far so i would have time to learn the guns and maps in a more chaotic setting like tdm or kill confirmed.
awesome.
hotarms' brother's clan/crew are the most stereotypical little kids screaming and singing into the mic and then call each other trash while spectating. lol i tend to go a little more try hard in search and the last match i was in, they all decided to stand on the well in seatown (offense spawn) and kill themselves when someone tried to kill them.
i learned how much fun search is in this game, i'd been avoiding any objective based modes so far so i would have time to learn the guns and maps in a more chaotic setting like tdm or kill confirmed.
Grandeza
Smash Master
That's a pretty ridiculous oversimplification. The AR user can miss a bullet but keep firing. If a non semi auto sniper misses, they must wait to do the bolt action and by that time they're dead.
Hot_ArmS
Smash Hero
If the sniper missed, doesn't that mean...
...the person with the AR deserved to win the gunfight...?
Grandeza
Smash Master
Yeah of course, but when you said it takes a sniper one bullet and an AR 3-5 you make it sound as if the sniper has the obvious advantage which I why I brought up the point that a sniper has to be much more accurate to win the gunfight and it's not as simple as whoever kills in less bullets wins.
O D I N
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2005
- Messages
- 7,408
- 3DS FC
- 4098-3123-8629
My point exactly.
Balance.
You'd think that. :-/
@Grand: Well, yeah, but the problem with a competent quickscoper is they're bending the rules. It's like they're playing The Matrix with a Sniper Rifle. Okay, bad example. But my point is if they know what they're doing, it's no longer balanced.
Let's look at it like chess.
The pawn is a piece that can only kill on a diagonal. In one space. But what if a player changed the rules so that HIS pawn could kill in two spaces? Or even forwards or backwards? And still be a pawn?
You could say it could make it to the end of the board and it can become a rook, or a queen, but that's not what's happening. The rules changed because this player said so.
See my point?
EDIT: Added stuff above this post. >_<
I'm gonna sit back and watch on the rest of this one. I'll jump in as necessary, but I don't feel much like debating right now.
What I WILL say though, is that I'm glad we have some intelligent debate going on (within reason), rather than a complete and total pissing contest.
Lumpy, invite incoming.
Yeah, aim is key for sniping. Getting used to the whole aim assist thing is hard, and that's where most of the skill in sniping lies. But dude, if I already pumped two or three shots in a person with my AR, the simple fact that they can insta-kill me in the middle of my bullet stream makes no sense to me.
*edit
Good point ODIN. Thank you for relating it to something other than a video game. Feels more... tangible.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
the most negative thing i have to say about quickscoping is that it promotes amateur trick shotters to play stupidly and hurt the team. not that big of a deal, but that's the most annoying part about it for me.
yeah, i see why lol. i can tolerate it if they're actually trying to play, but i died in the middle of the map only to find the entire team sitting on the well in seatown.
i'll probably be on around 7 or 7:30ish tonight.
Circa
Smash Champion
But isn't AR vs AR almost always a case of "whoever has better aim wins" as well?
Sure, a sniper has to have much better aim than an AR user, but I'm not seeing how that's a big deal in this argument. If your aim is good enough, you're going to be godlike with a sniper and it's really going to show. What you're talking about is margin for error, which is only a true argument in a situation where the margin for error that is created is too great for someone to possibly overcome. And I just don't see that being the case.
Grizz is proof that the margin isn't too high, actually. The fact that he exists and (at least as far as we know) isn't a freak of nature shows that it's doable, however hard. The simple reason why you don't see more snipers, then, is because they're content with using good weapons that don't call for nearly as much dedication. But that doesn't change whether they're OP or not.
Grandeza
Smash Master
The margin of error is huge. Grizz is an outlier because of the amount of dedication he's put into the game. There are so few like him. The point I'm trying to get across is, yeah with crazy reflexes and aim, a sniper can be really good. And with the dedication it can happen and make a sniper frustrating, but that type of skill takes insane amounts of effort. A sniper who's been practicing for years won't be able to consistently kill an AR user at close range. Maybe snipers can be OP in the right hands, but so few people have the hands to do it and in my opinion, if you do, you've earned it. I want the ability to win my close range engagements consistently with a sniper but I can't. After two years of sniping in Cod 4, MW2, and Black Ops and now MW3 I am still nowhere near that level of skill. And it's not like I'm a lost cause and sniping isn't my thing. I'm sure there at least a few members on SWF who can attest to the fact that I'm a fairly good sniper. I have a pretty good shot. But I've worked for it. And to make a sniper work the way you guys claim it can under the best of conditions takes so much skill and work. Grizz plays Call of Duty as his job. He just plays and plays and plays for hours and hours every day and has been playing since like CoD 2. He has earned the ability to best people with the sniper and even he doesn't win every close range gun fight. It's not as simple as put in some work and you're godmode.
Interesting analogy but I really don't think it applies very well to quickscoping. Quickscopers certainly aren't changing the rules. the players aren't just magically changing CoD. Quickscoping is intended to be a part of the game. The pawn is not intended to move two spaces. And even so, this analogy doesn't account at all for the work one needs to put in with a sniper. It's not so simple as changing the rules to your benefit. If you don't put in the time, you suck.