Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

[VietGeek]

i guess the promise is only as stable as the characters themselves <_<

nice to know all my characters are obnoxious to the b+ wbr.

for captain and wolf i guess the easiest thing to do is tweak Fgrav.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Also I want to ask if it's a good idea to remove the concept of 'silent' laser. Since it's optimal to always "silent" laser with Falco, should we just fix the SFX call to always come out (similar to Melee)? We should do this with Fox too. This is more of a asethics thing but no one said anything the last time I mentioned it (which while I will assume that means "No that's stupid", I'm stubborn enough to bring it up again).

I would be up for the silent laser change. I'll never get used to performing 10+ perfect SHLs with no sound. It just seems awkward, but as you said, more of an aesthetic change, so it shouldn't be really high up as far as priority fixes are concerned.

As far as stability is concerned, this is the last time in 6 months that we're going to be able to perform small tweaks such as this. We might as well take advantage of it while we can, because after this release, that's it. There's going to be absolutely no changes within the next 6 months barring some game/balance-breaking problem or glitch that we missed.

In fact, if I understood right, this is going to be the last time any character experiences any buff/nerf/trade-off for the rest of Brawl+'s existence (again, aside from those three special cases).

 

[Veril]

i guess the promise is only as stable as the characters themselves <_<

nice to know all my characters are obnoxious to the b+ wbr.

for captain and wolf i guess the easiest thing to do is tweak Fgrav.

I brought up changing Wolf's physics when I made this thread. Wolf, Zelda, and Lucario all reflect terrible choices in regards to changes. All the changes are going to be voted on, so this *****ing about your characters is both annoying and unfounded.

Not making unnecessary new changes ≠ keeping every garbage change of the past.

marth mains are whiny *****es

In fact, if I understood right, this is going to be the last time any character experiences any buff/nerf/trade-off for the rest of Brawl+'s existence (again, aside from those three special cases).

Future changes would be made only if it has been clearly demonstrated that a character is non-viable or it falls under the special cases I have outlined (infinites, freezing the game, working radically different from the intention). Thus a character would only really be nerfed if some change we implemented made some of their matchups instant wins.

Lucario's CG against Falcon is almost an instant win. You can't ban both FD and SV to avoid the CG... and it is completely legitimate.


My approach is still dramatically more conservative than any taken in the past. The only thing I'd change about Wolf are his physics, for example. The only thing I'd change about Lucario is his up-throw. etc... and you all still are voting for this stuff...

 

[Dantarion]

Alternate SFX for perfect lazer?
GO GO GO

 

[The Cape]

The wolf physics makes him play a good deal like a vBrawl character as he can just float out of your combos extremely easily (and the sideB knee hitbox was a STUPID change). The reflector as it is now makes it impossible to string wolf, but at least he takes damage. His smashes are very strong and fairly hard to punish as well as his bair which is a great spacing fest. He is easily one of the best characters in the game and also one of the easiest ones to learn, which just isnt good.

The fact that he has no effective weaknesses (as his recovery is insanely powerful and his floaty physics makes it hard to combo him and makes recovery easy) just makes him in a realm of very stupid. If his physics makes him a bit heavier so you can actually combo him that would at least make him a more fair character, even though he would still be stupid scrubby to play.

 

[MK26]

(and the sideB knee hitbox was a STUPID change)

q4tmft

10char

 

[goodoldganon]

So Falcon weight, Lucario U throw, Sonic changes, Mario changes, Ike sideB, and Wolf physics
- Falcon weight: Make him lighter (helps to KO him a bit and removes CGs)

Though I agree that this is the best solution instead of retweaking 15 grabs, do you guys think he might need a slight buff for the 'nerf?' I wouldn't think so, just asking

- Lucario U throw: It has 38 frames of advantage on JIGGS at 0. **** needs more base to remove its 0 to death CGs on Fox, Falco, and Falcon

I've been playing Lucario in friendlies and noticed this too. I approve of this change.

- Sonic: I have some changes for him. Fixed his U throw, D throw, U smash, Uair, and jabs and I can upload the .pac once I finish putting it back together.

Sonic is good as is, it's just too bad some of his **** doesn't work. That addresses this.

- Mario: D and U throw as well as the dair change (working on values). With good DI he has 0 followups even if he reads you. Really bad for an already bad character that throw combos alot.

I assume you are careful to make sure the combo follow ups won't be 'lol RC1 easy mode' on follow ups. This one could be more debatable amongst the better players who see more of Mario.

- Ike's sideB: Remove the speed up, make the attack refresh his jump in the air. Already tested it because the on stage applications of the move are STUPID.

A much better solution to our current recovery fix. Though it could cause problems with the balloon in Smashville. Imagine the mindgames!

- Wolf's physics: Scrubbiest character in the game as is, and you cant combo him at all. Its like fighting a vBrawl character that can spam his smashes. This will make him one of the best characters, if not the best, if its not fixed.

I disagree but I think adjusting his side-b to not be a near 'get on the stage free card' Just return to the old hitbox but adjust the semi spike hitbox he used to have because that was the whole reason I ever made that change.

 

[Shell]

I always thought that the side-B knee-box in combination with his ability to warp through the stage with it was pretty stupid.

 

[Veril]

The side-b isn't the issue; his terrible physics adjustments are. I really... really really think that making a character with as good a combo breaker as the reflector more floaty and combo resistant was beyond ********. The lowered hitstun really exacerbates this problem.

His f-grav should be increased. Nothing else should be touched imo. He's stupid and scrubby as h***, but removing much of the combo resistance that I don't even know who GAVE HIM is enough.


On Ike's grounded side-b: in several matchups this cannot be punished on block. That's a problem, how much of a problem is debatable. Cape has a very good solution to making this move work as intended. Thoughts?

 

[The Cape]

Kirby D throw on Falcon is basically an infinite. One more to the list I guess.

As for the Wolf thing, just make his sideB weaker and always spike. Much better.

As for Ike sideB: Giving him his jump back in the air is better than the speed up. I already showed Veril how silly it was by doing nothing but Ike's side B and locking him down a good deal. Had I done that to someone new in tournament I am sure they would have quit Plus forever. It looks really bad and we have a better solution for it as is.

 

[Glick]

Seriously?

Ike's side b is great on the stage, but are you really going to nerf it?
Ike isn't that great, and it's not ******** at all.

You know what's ********? giving ike his side b in the air. Like BB status.

I'm sorry, but just because cape locked veril out in a game with side b doesn't mean it "unpublishable for certain characters"

Ike doesn't have much going for him, and it's certainly not as borked as some of the other stuff other characters have.

"I think we should nerf TL, he has projectiles that completely shut down CF"

This game will always be unbalanced because of matchups. Nerfing bad characters for something that is not an auto-win (which is isn't at all) is stupid.

Though I agree that this is the best solution instead of retweaking 15 grabs, do you guys think he might need a slight buff for the 'nerf?' I wouldn't think so, just asking

People who think that "nerf deserves a buff" talk is legit is the reason why I hated the WBR back in the day.

It's straight up politics. Just because zelda lost a ******** up throw to up air combo, doesn't mean she deserves a backthrow that kills at 80%. (obviously an analogy)

Let's keep the changes conservative.
Not "lets nerf character x because I saw/used this really **** thing" so let's include an experimental change into the gold release.

Sorry, I just ranted a bit. But this is the way the WBR used to work. And it's the reason why so many people hate B+. We have to let this game evolve. If Ike starts to take over tournaments because his side b can shut 2 characters down, you can blame me then.

 

[goodoldganon]

I would assume the reason for the Ike change is two fold. Cape can correct me if (and probably when ) I am wrong.

First, it isn't a nerf to Ike's side-b game. As you admit Glick, Ike's side-b being used to 'lock down' shields is hardly a reliable strategy after a little work with the matchup. Sure, maybe a few characters might be ****ed, but to dream for a game where 39 people all don't have any terribad matchups is silly. This change is trying to keep the original reason that change went in and it was because edgeguarding Ike was beyond skill-less before. Jump out, AD, laugh. Or throw Pikmin in Olimar's case. Cape's change still keeps the original intention of the move which was a recovery buff, not a buff to his stage game. From my experience with vBrawl Ike and Brawl+ Ike I use side-b on stage because it has next to no lag when it ends and doesn't connect.

Frankly, I agree with Cape that it's silly to leave this in the game with the problems it could cause when we are trying to get new people to pick this game up. Yes, side-b spam is beatable after a few matches but it's already hard enough to get people to try Brawl+ due to the negative stigma of hacking. Ike is also a huge favorite character for newer players and most people I introduce Brawl+ to are like 'HOW'S IKE PLAY!!!" If this change won't have much or any effect on high level play, but removes something that new players will hate when they first play I say go for it. Maybe that's just me and I'm sure I'll get flamed for being a casual, but I think it's silly to burn the bridge with new players and just say 'Shut up and learn to play.' Instead of eliminating something that's going to put a huge scar on people's first Brawl+ matches.


(Yes this has happened at Toledo where I have watched Ike's semi-spam the side-b and people get super frustrated and won't listen to my tips. Great players don't start out great, they need to learn and things like this should be addressed. My 2 cents)

Still, some form of a speedup will still need to be applied to the move because the original swing is SOOO SLOW. Like, some characters can smash Ike after it.

 

[The Cape]

Btw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXPu-KR9qZk&feature=sub

****

Easy fix:
When in slipped state you cant be footstooled.

 

[Veril]

I'm sorry, but just because cape locked veril out in a game with side b doesn't mean it "unpublishable for certain characters"

how much of a problem is debatable.

I didn't actually lose that game despite it being the first time I ever encountered that tactic... he just demonstrated the lameness fairly well. I didn't say I thought it should be changed, merely that Cape had an alternate idea, and I said "unpunishable on block for certain characters" which is simply fact. The move can't be punished with SH aerials if the Ike buffers a jab. I don't actually want to change this, and I even looked at its adv on block (which is a slight disadvantage, enough for a few characters who aren't pushed far enough away, like DDD, to shieldgrab).

If a character has a combination of these qualities they won't be able to punish this on block:
-is pushed out of shieldgrab range or has a slow grab
-has no OOS option with invinvibility frames
-has no OOS option that hits in under 9 frames

Ganon is an example.

People who think that "nerf deserves a buff" talk is legit is the reason why I hated the WBR back in the day.

You already know I don't believe that ;p and, if this is about tweaking Falcon, reducing his vulnerability to CGs is a buff . Even if his physics are slightly different its still a change massively in his favor.

 

[Shell]

Seriously?
Sorry, I just ranted a bit. But this is the way the WBR used to work. And it's the reason why so many people hate B+. We have to let this game evolve. If Ike starts to take over tournaments because his side b can shut 2 characters down, you can blame me then.

I think you have a completely valid point about the old WBR there. However, it's also worth noting that an equally large problem with the old WBR was its stubbornness about changing things that many people could look at and agree were stupid. This is a large part of why GSH1/2 received so much praise -- it wasn't afraid of throwing out things from 5.0 that were stupid...

However, if you change things too much then you are very right that gameplay won't evolve and people will get pissed off. It's a delicate balance.

 

[Veril]

Ike's side-b is something I'd rather see people work their way around than change. The problem with this is that the whole issue with the move is due to our changes. Think about it, when the changelist gets posted and people are asking, wtf is up with Ike's side-b, am I going to say, "well, it was a recovery buff that we could have done in several other ways. Just so happens that it now has a positive shield-drop advantage. 'shrug'"

In the case of this move I may find and post all the options for dealing with it. Obviously several projectiles can deal with this move, as can heavily disjointed attacks, some characters can shieldgrab, Bowser's fortress, etc. The reason it seems so bad, again, is that it has an advantage (though a very tiny one) on shield-drop, and enough pushback that a lot of characters can't shield-grab him after it.

 

[lord karn]

Making something stupid, but not even that good (like ike's sideb), different is usually a good thing. At high level play such a tactic would not be very good. I don't know for sure, but it seems to me like it definitely has many options that can beat it before the reactionary stage (the options Veril was talking about). Given the above is true, changing the side b as cape proposed would not be a nerf; it does not really change the viability of any strategies Ike would have at tournament level. The only thing it removes is a tactic that is really effective when the opponent doesn't quite know how to deal with it, even if they know it's coming. Considering this game has 39 characters, making there a ton of matchups to understand, I would think the goal of this game is to reduce the amount of such strategies. Because all characters (almost) are viable, we should create a metagame where adaptation and overall smart gameplay are favored. Leaving things like Ike's sideb in the game as it is now will only lead to the development of a metagame where no players consistently place the same, because no one is going to know every character's gimicks and will eventually lose to one they have not encountered.

However, the difficult thing is figuring out what is actually silly and what is not. Admittedly, I have not tested this Ike sideb thing, and am assuming that Veril and Cape are right that it is very gimmicky but not actually broken in terms of frame advantage.

On a side note, I would put Luigi's downb in the same boat. The move seems really hard to punish, but if I just knew the timing I could punish it every time.

 

[Plum]

Luigi's Down B is in a great place in this set in my opinion. Its still quick, and covers a huge distance making it hard to punish when used as a mixup, but the transcendent priority on it makes beating it out when you do see it coming very easy. Same with MK's Tornado. As far as changes go, those were handled very well

Ike's Side B has never been a problem for me. But then again I play characters who can beat out his Side B before he can get in for the slash, or their name is just DDD and they grab everything.
It seems like its effectiveness is totally on a character to character basis, and the situation should be easily avoidable given matchup knowledge for those characters who have issues. Its one thing when a move > half the cast (DDD's old Bair) in every situation, but this just doesn't seem like it is too much of an issue.

The only justification I see is that it might make B+ look bad from a first glance, but quite frankly I would tell any player who whines about it to get better or ask around the Workshop/IRC for help in a problem situation. We're all nice here, unless your 13 and absolutely suck

Spoiler

I have a few people in mind >.>

.

 

[GHNeko]

I've never seen the onstage usage of Ike's QD to ever be a problem, no matter what character I used. I see it as a move that can only be used intelligently, and even when used in a such a way, can still end out bad for Ike.

Characters that have issues dealing with Ike's side B are characters with the 3 mentioned traits that Veril brought up and its inherently a character fault rather than Ike's Side B being the problem.

But these traits only apply on block. They completely vanish on sidestep/roll and leave Ike in an extremely punishable state, punishable enough for even characters like Ganon to punish Ike with.

It's not an overcentralizing move in any Match up that Ike has as well.

If players are having issues with that single move, then who is to say that they wont have issues against other moves with similar properties, and think the same things that they'd think about Ike QD.

 

[VietGeek]

All the changes are going to be voted on, so this *****ing about your characters is both annoying and unfounded.

ITT: Veril still doesn't know how to take a joke.

]We're all nice here, unless your 13 and absolutely suck

Spoiler

I have a few people in mind >.>

.

kk excuuuuuuuuusssssseeeee me.

His f-grav should be increased. Nothing else should be touched imo. He's stupid and scrubby as h***, but removing much of the combo resistance that I don't even know who GAVE HIM is enough.

It was kept from as early as February/March of last year. Gonna assume Wolf wasn't very popular back in the day, nor was Brawl+.

As for the Wolf thing, just make his sideB weaker and always spike. Much better.

Much better in what regard? It definitely isn't one for our scrubby furry friend. It basically makes the move crap for genuine offensive application, and reduces its more prominent use to simply punishing bad ledgeguards and as a suicide kill.

Better idea:

- Reduce KBG on hitboxes from 93 to 83. Right now it is indeed hilariously strong, and if we're going through with the stage boundary idea this probably would have had to happen anyway.

- Fix hitboxes. IIRC this second hitbox was the flub hitbox in the back that could reversal KO a bad ledgeguarder.

Nowadays it's a giantass SIZE 10 HITBOX WITH TONS OF RAGE AND REVERSAL BONUSES.

or

This is if I take a shot from the default focus.​

Here is what I propose.

Modify the size of the second hitbox to 3. Make the y-offset 9, x-offset 4 instead, this will cover Wolf's head area.

Make another hitbox and make it y-offset 5, x-offset -4, will cover the lower area.

Now you'll get this:

Now it takes more skill to land, and it kills later, as well as still serving its original purposes (whatever they were, probably something the lines of: "Give Wolf cool combo video potential."). It still effectively matches Wolf's body, so yeah, I think this is the best way to go with this thus far (I'm sure someone can do better though; but we don't need to recreate the conditions that led to the Rarth Rebellion).

 

[MK26]

i appreciate the pretty pictures, but the move is ******** regardless

EDIT:

Btw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXPu-KR9qZk&feature=sub

****

Easy fix:
When in slipped state you cant be footstooled.

Win. That is all.

And Luigi's Tornado...perhaps give the grounded hit a bit more SDIability? I just dislike that move.

 

[VietGeek]

MK26 likes yellow obv

Right now the SDI is set to 0.6 with 0.75 hitlag. For all practicality that's essentially unSDIable. Why don't we make SDI 1.2x and leave hitlag as is?

As it is I do have to admit Luigi tornado is probably one of the best techchase moves in the game.

 

[GHNeko]

Luigi Tornado ignores the concept of spacing. <_>

 

[Magus420]

The SDI parameter controls both SDI and ASDI. The move currently hits 6 times (1 dmg each) before the final hit that has KB connects (4 dmg; 10 dmg total). If you raise it from where I made it you're going to be able to avoid the last hit and **** him by simply holding up if you get hit by it with some/most/a lot of characters depending on how much it is increased. I'm pretty sure some floaties can do this already as is if it hits with most of the move.

 

[Isatis]

Btw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXPu-KR9qZk&feature=sub

****

Easy fix:
When in slipped state you cant be footstooled.

It should be fixed, but whether it'll catch on or even usable mid-match is another thing being debated:

[5:45pm] Coyn3Masta: i saw it like last week though
[5:45pm] Coyn3Masta: i found it funny when i saw it
[5:45pm] Coyn3Masta: im still not sure if it is an actual combo though lol
[5:45pm] Coyn3Masta: and its toooooo situational
[5:45pm] Coyn3Masta: thats why no one ever uses the single nanner lock
[5:47pm] Coyn3Masta: other than the fact that you have to footstool them to get it started...yeah this is just another gimmick that isn't going to get anywhere

 

[JCaesar]

I support Viet's change to Wolf's side-B. It's certainly better than making it spike again, which only makes it worthless as an attack and unsafe on hit.

I don't know how I feel about Ike's side-B. It's a bit silly that a move like that is safe on block, but it's nowhere near broken and it does give Ike other approach options than "spam fair and jab" which is kinda nice. Ike is a pretty shallow character as is and nerfing side-B could hurt that even more.

It should be fixed, but whether it'll catch on or even usable mid-match is another thing being debated:

It's current level of abuse doesn't really matter. If we see a poisonous snake, we should cut the head off the snake before the snake bites, not after.

 

[MK26]

I support Viet's change to Wolf's side-B. It's certainly better than making it spike again, which only makes it worthless as an attack and unsafe on hit.

Where does it say it has to be useful as an attack and/or safe on hit? Then again, any change is better than what it is now...how about giving it a nipple spike angle?

 

[VietGeek]

i think its in italics in the section of the book "smash bros. is a deep fighter"

under the chapter "useless fodder moves are necessary due to smash's inherent depth"



but yeah lets try my idea unless anyone else has something wolf players can actually agree on.

assuming it even gets accepted at all.

 

[Veril]

The banana footstool infinite is an infinite... this is a no brainer. Its gotta go.

Wolf's physics are much more of an issue than his side-b. The alterations to his fgrav were bad and make little sense for one of the spacies. Viet's fix looks great though, the current hitbox makes no god d*** sense at all.


I'm at school atm, but when I'm home later I'm gonna go through and find all the on-block options vs. Ike's side-b to jab (frame 3 jab O.o). I'd love for it to be something I could just number crunch, but its as dependent on shield-pushback as it is on grab-range and speed so it'll have to be checked. Most tether grabs aren't fast enough to beat side-b to buffered jab. Olimar might be an exception.

 

[The Cape]

The banana footstool is an easy fix. No footstool while in slipped state. Done and done :-p

 

[JCaesar]

Where does it say it has to be useful as an attack and/or safe on hit? Then again, any change is better than what it is now...how about giving it a nipple spike angle?

It doesn't need to be useful, but I'm currently fighting for stability more than anything else unless a change is really necessary. Reverting Wolf's side-B to vBrawl level of suckage is a major change in function and would be a major nerf to his recovery, which he just doesn't need if we're significantly nerfing his physics too (btw I hope we're planning on keeping his AC fair kthxbai).

 

[MK26]

or do it the reverse way and make it so tripped state doesnt get interrupted by footstool (like how you cant interrupt attacks by getting footstooled)

edit @ jcz: how does viet's hitboxes + toning down the kill power sound, then?

anyway, i dont see whats wrong with it bein a spike if its a good strong spike...
"spike" != "vBrawl"

 

[Blinds]

I'm at school atm, but when I'm home later I'm gonna go through and find all the on-block options vs. Ike's side-b to jab (frame 3 jab O.o). I'd love for it to be something I could just number crunch, but its as dependent on shield-pushback as it is on grab-range and speed so it'll have to be checked. Most tether grabs aren't fast enough to beat side-b to buffered jab. Olimar might be an exception.

Lemme know if you want help testing this.

 

[shanus]

Please test:

Remove Buffered Powershields [Shanus]
06fb121c 00000008
0002000 00000000

 

[The Cape]

What does it do exactly?

 

[Veril]

Contrary to what I had believed, Ike's side-b has a -15 block adv, however shield pushback of the fully charged side b is substantial, and puts most characters out of range to retaliate with shieldgrabs. So, the number crunching has moved onto shield drop dash attacks and aerial responses for the most part. For now I'm gonna give it a solid... meh. Certainly punishable on powershield, definitely something that would require some work to do consistently. Its also possible for (some) characters to pivot grab him out of his side-b or outprioritize the move.

 

[Glick]

Ganons warlock kick doesn't get through it?

 

[JCaesar]

- Reduce KBG on hitboxes from 93 to 83. Right now it is indeed hilariously strong, and if we're going through with the stage boundary idea this probably would have had to happen anyway.

- Fix hitboxes. IIRC this second hitbox was the flub hitbox in the back that could reversal KO a bad ledgeguarder.

I support Viet's change to Wolf's side-B.

edit @ jcz: how does viet's hitboxes + toning down the kill power sound, then?

Hellooo?

anyway, i dont see whats wrong with it bein a spike if its a good strong spike...
"spike" != "vBrawl"

As a spike, it's not actually useful for spiking people because of how the move works. It only serves to make it punishable on hit, since, even if they screw up edgeguarding you and get spiked, they can immediately tech it and *still* punish you. There are a few situations where the spike might be useful if your opponent really screws up an edgeguard offstage, but it would be a pretty large overall nerf for sure.

 

[omegablackmage]

The move def still needs to have standard knockback rather than a spike. Lets look at falco's phantasm, how often does anyone make use of the spike hitbox other than to 'embarrass' people off the stage? (and that hitbox lasts for the entire side b!) It needs to have enough knockback at most percents to keep the move safe if they strike the edgeguarder, but not so much that it kills people at 50%.

 

[The Cape]

Well the spike KB would lead to a fair followup instead of just straight killing the person.