Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

[VietGeek]

Well the spike KB would lead to a fair followup instead of just straight killing the person.

Only if the person is on the ground. If they are in the air they don't bounce off the ground, no?

Also the vBrawl version would undoubtedly be better than the spike version, since that size 10 hitbox is actually the one that sends out horizontally. There's an internal smaller one that takes priority should it hit, which is the one that does the spike.

 

[MK26]

whoops, missed that post

and how does spike on aerial opponents and reg kb on grounded opponents sound? weak spike during movement and reg kb at sweetspot? just throwing out ideas...

 

[VietGeek]

Unless you meant regular KB on air opponents and spike on grounded opponents, that still sounds horrible for Wolf players. <_<

 

[goodoldganon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa6SpznBSFs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J1tRAmbPT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxA8uzOjGiY&NR=1

Discuss.

I don't play either character, just caught my attention.

 

[The Cape]

Matchup isnt that bad. So silly.

 

[MK26]

*rubs chin*

that may be a problem

the questions are '(why) did this (not) work in vBrawl?' and 'why did this only come up now?'

looks like a beatable tactic, tho...iunno

 

[Veril]

It's Ally. And that Bowser sucks, at least compared to him. Kong SDs, spaces poorly, and just doesn't know his options in general.

 

[The Cape]

It's Ally. And that Bowser sucks, at least compared to him. He SDs, spaces poorly, and just doesn't know his options in general.

Truth

Seems that he doesnt understand how Brawl+ works at all.

 

[MK26]

Well...he got to loser's finals

that says something, doesnt it?

 

[omegablackmage]

bowser needs to learn spacing and di... this guy is honestly terrible, the cape puts him to shame.

The parts where he bites him offstage... for christs sake di away so he doesn't bite again. Bites to tech chases? how bout you don't get up in place every time... /rant

very beatable tactic

 

[VietGeek]

*shrug* The throw out hitboxes look really good though, lots of base, and the grab box not only lingers but is decently sized too (around size 3.6-4.5 if the info's in Parameter 2; event 060A0900, SubAction 1CF)

also if I recall correctly during this mouth open animation, his entire mouth area is no longer a hurtbox.

I guess it has several properties that can make it really abuse-able move, but it's really not that far off from Wario's Uair in regards to quick damage.

Wario is rather underused although we all know how good he is. As Veril would say, 'meh'

@MK26: Nearly no one knows how to fight Bowser and UpB is basically level 9 Nana (for ICs) for Bowser <__<

and i thought fighting Melee Bowser was obnoxious

 

[The Cape]

Giving Wario's bite more winddown was a suitable change for now as the move is actually punishable when used improperly.

From fighting OBM I just recalled one more thing. Bowser cannot recover against GW at ALL. Manhole hits too far below the stage and Bowser just cant grab the edge. Makes the matchup unwinnable.

If you land on the stage, its an easy F smash for him as well.

 

[Plum]

G&W has plenty of stupidly dominating matchups.

More than any other character in the game, easily.

 

[Revven]

The Wario bite **** isn't new because I had been abusing the bite way early on and it's mainly why the move got the new punishable lag. Really, the only thing you can get from a Bite that's probably inescapable (don't have data to back it up obv) is DACUS and that's only if they DI away. Techchasing with it was obvious from day one and there's almost no way a Wario can always techchase another bite after a bite if the opponent varies their DI or techs (he's not fast enough, the player may accidentally do their Side B instead as Ally had done in the RC match).

The move isn't stupid good, it's just good in certain match-ups and beats people who don't know how to get around it. There were a lot of instances in that video where Ally simply threw the **** thing out and KK attacked him anyway, getting bitten and thus, getting *****.

Also, KK apparently doesn't even play B+ but apparently, he may be starting to soon (it's what I heard). So basically... all that video shows is lulz. Plus, WHO THE **** CPS A WARIO WITH RAINBOW CRUISE!?

 

[Plum]

Yeah, those videos didn't show anything besides that Ally has an entertaining Wario.

The Bite can only be heavily abused against characters who almost universally extend their hurtbox with moves. I'm sure Wario is a bad matchup for Bowser given Bowser's speed compared to the way Wario moves in and out of practically everything. I can't see it being that bad though... I stopped playing Wario a while ago, but I can still see where Bowser can capitalize on Wario's problems.

And yeah... Taking Wario to Cruise? Highest aerial mobility in the entire game... and you go Cruise? Unless your name is MK that is just a stupid move.

 

[5ive]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMvae39zN5c
Came 3rd in Brawl+ and 9th in vBrawl. But TBH easy win if Dist wasn't ******** or if I had played him. By the way, KingKong = Montreal. Ally has tons of experience on him. KingKong plays Brawl+.

Also, Veril, I've picked up Olimar recently and realized people were momentum cancelling Brawl style when I bthrowed them. Cape later told me that it was only on yellow pikmin. Hitstun change on yellow pikmin bthrow has to be done.

 

[The Cape]

Its actually alot of electric attacks. I hit Pikachu out of his aerial neutral B with an MK nair. No idea what caused it, but we need to find a fix for it (might just need to increase the hitlag on the electric multipler).

As for GW vs Bowser. The matchup is dead even except for the recovery, that makes it unwinnable.

 

[5ive]

Its actually alot of electric attacks. I hit Pikachu out of his aerial neutral B with an MK nair. No idea what caused it, but we need to find a fix for it (might just need to increase the hitlag on the electric multipler).

As for GW vs Bowser. The matchup is dead even except for the recovery, that makes it unwinnable.

Come to think of it, I've noticed that too.

Also, KK apparently doesn't even play B+ but apparently, he may be starting to soon (it's what I heard). So basically... all that video shows is lulz. Plus, WHO THE **** CPS A WARIO WITH RAINBOW CRUISE!?

He's in my region. I can EASILY get him to try and play Brawl+.

 

[omegablackmage]

best bet to fix the bowser thing is to give him a bit more vertical/horizontal grab reach to get around the dtilt if its close. Im sure he has more problems recovering other than gw, any hitbox that goes below the stage will probably knock him away. Also fixing his momentum on his up b will help alot if need be.

 

[Veril]

What motivates Ally's recent posting

The Bowser he played, whether he is bad or good, completely failed to adapt to the bite and made an enormous number of technical errors. The grounded bite does not true combo into aerial bite, even frame perfect, at anything beyond low %. Even without DI... even on Bowser. The beginning of the third match is a great example of how King Kongs technical mistakes led to the **** that Ally inflicted.

First, he missed a tech. At really low% you have to DI down and tech with Bowser, otherwise its a true combo into a grab, which in turn combos back into bite at very low %. Instead of even rolling away, he got regrabbed and gimped. Once Bowser gets to about 50% or so, the bite can't combo into anything other than possibly DACUS. Bowser should NEVER DI UP. DI down and away to tech-roll at low % and Wario has no guaranteed followups. At higher %, if you are above the stage you can actually do a retreating klaw hop and Wario can't bite or nair you before you can properly space an fair.

tl;dr: King Kong failed to tech or combo break properly. I replicated all the non-lolcruise situations frame perfect. The bite is not as good as Ally makes it appear.

 

[Veril]

This topic is going the wrong way and I can tell you now Veril is raging and gonna hand out infractions.

No, that's not the case at all. Though these threads are often frustrating, when someone at Ally's level posts, I pay close attention to what they are saying... while pacing, chain-smoking and drinking black coffee of course... thinking of a smart and appropriate response to what he's said.

Bowser counter?: adv vs. Bowser: 26, bite comes out frame 8, 5 frame jump startup.
aerial followup window: 21
combo break options:
-Up-b: inv, hits frame 6
-nair: hits frame 6
-fair: hits frame 6
-side-b: hits fairly late but allows for isjr fair which properly spaced will beat the bite iirc.

No guarenteed low% followups if the bowser DI's down and techs (or tech rolls). No guarenteed followups at high %. Don't jump into the ****.

I'm going what players should do when confronted with epic b*******: try to get around it, understand what's actually happening and how it could be escaped. Wario's bite isn't massively better advantage-wise than a good throw. It is certainly really good, but it isn't an infinite or even a high % loop.

Here's the basic rundown of bite to bite: Its got 10 frames of lag, so you can't read DI on reaction, it has to be predicted. But its got lots of hitstun, ~36+ frames. So you've got a starting advantage of about 26, on Bowser if the Bowser doesn't DI. Take away 5 for the jump startup and you've got an adv of 21... the bite grabs of frame 8. So purely on paper, without taking knockback or DI or teching or ANYTHING into account, its possible to do. You also can hit with the sex kick portion of nair and combo that into bite.

If you take knockback into account this only works at low % on bowser. At higher % it won't even be a real string. If you take DI and tech-rolling (and not CPing rainbow cruise >.<) into account, its just not as dominating as it seems in those matches cause the advantage isn't high enough for Wario to have any guaranteed followups.

The Bowser he played, whether he is bad or good, completely failed to adapt to the bite and made an enormous number of technical errors. The grounded bite does not true combo into aerial bite, even frame perfect, at anything beyond low %. Even without DI... even on Bowser. The beginning of the third match is a great example of how King Kongs technical mistakes led to the **** that Ally inflicted.

First, he missed a tech. At really low% you have to DI down and tech with Bowser, otherwise its a true combo into a grab, which in turn combos back into bite at very low %. Instead of even rolling away, he got bit again and gimped. Once Bowser gets to about 50% or so, the bite can't combo into anything other than possibly DACUS. Bowser should NEVER DI UP. DI down and away to tech-roll at low % and Wario has no guaranteed followups. At higher %, if you are above the stage you can actually do a retreating klaw hop and Wario can't bite or nair you before you can properly space an fair.

tl;dr: King Kong failed to tech or combo break properly. I replicated all the non-lolcruise situations frame perfect. The bite is not as good as Ally makes it appear.

Add whatever you guys want and I'll repost it in the Bowser thread.

 

[VietGeek]

kk going off tangent here:

does anyone plan to make a purely cosmetic speed-up to the ledge grab animation? While the "holding ledge" animation has been sped up, the ledge grab animation has not. It looks like it lacks fluidity. However it looks fine in vBrawl.

idk this is about as important as giving silent lasers actual sfx.

but we must remember the words of the last ruler of the Mantle Dynasty:

"polish b*tches"

 

[lord karn]

Veril's analysis should pretty much end this conversation. The bite is fine.

 

[VietGeek]

Please test:

Remove Buffered Powershields [Shanus]
06fb121c 00000008
0002000 00000000

You seem to be missing a zero on the second line, first...32-bit something something? <_<

Anyway I tacked on an extra 0 at the beginning of that line. Game loaded fine, seems like you can't buffer PSes anymore...but

if you are hit in shield and you DIDN'T powershield, you'll be immobile and the animation repeatedly loops over. Your shield doesn't degenerate over time but it does leave you completely powerless for a shield break.

I am hungry right now; will try tacking on the zero at the end instead unless you respond before that.



btw dead frame removal is so cash. it's like playing rarth in melee with melee as your counterpick while meleeing about on 0 buffer like a melee. this is apparent through the carpal tunnel of melee

 

[5ive]

A complaint from Ally and crew via PM.

This is about Wario's Up-Air



Now, i don't think that the up-air is broken in a sense, but it is in need of some fixing.

I was playing Ally's Wario with my Jigglypuff, and he was able to up-air me to 60%, with me DIing away. I don't know if it's intentional, but as soon as you land a u-air, you can fast fall and do one right after, as if there's 0 landing lag whatsoever, and this is on a light character.

In the matches vs Holynightmare, the same thing would happen, but to a higher %, with DI.


Now, maybe i was just DIing badly, which is always a possibility, or that Ally is just too good, but i think this needs some looking into. He even said to me himself that Wario's u-air is broken.

Discuss.

 

[The Cape]

The move has an 80 degree angle, if it doesnt tumble you cannot DI it very well which is most likely the issue.

If anything we just need to change the angle on it to possibly 75.

Also, **** Ally

 

[Glick]

The move has an 80 degree angle, if it doesnt tumble you cannot DI it very well which is most likely the issue.

If anything we just need to change the angle on it to possibly 75.

Also, **** Ally

The angle change I'd completely agree too. it'd probably be nearly unnoticeable but tackle a lot of problems. I remember people complaining about up air way back when. the fact that there are no stale moves adds to it even more.

It would allow the wario to combo people with bad di, but it would at higher levels of play it would give people more of a chance to escape.

Well, that's my vote. even after complaining about changing too much. I'd understand why you'd vote against it though.

 

[GHNeko]

The move's attributes coupled with Wario's amazing aerial mobility makes it really **** amazing.

Greater DI capacity + angle change would be good imo.

 

[omegablackmage]

the more i read posts from ally, the more i hate him. He's turning into m2k in terms of sheer dickishness.

Is the complaint stemming from landing an up air at zero percent into the ground (ff'd) and then jumping and immediately up airing again? Wouldn't that only work once (landing two uairs)? Or is their complaint that it works too easily at too many percents?

 

[shanus]

You seem to be missing a zero on the second line, first...32-bit something something? <_<

Anyway I tacked on an extra 0 at the beginning of that line. Game loaded fine, seems like you can't buffer PSes anymore...but

if you are hit in shield and you DIDN'T powershield, you'll be immobile and the animation repeatedly loops over. Your shield doesn't degenerate over time but it does leave you completely powerless for a shield break.

I am hungry right now; will try tacking on the zero at the end instead unless you respond before that.



btw dead frame removal is so cash. it's like playing rarth in melee with melee as your counterpick while meleeing about on 0 buffer like a melee. this is apparent through the carpal tunnel of melee

Putting the zero at the start would cause problems. The zero at the end would fix it. Try that out

Remove Buffered Powershields [Shanus]
06fb121c 00000008
00020000 00000000

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Haha. Ally comes in, ***** with Wario and now the world is ending with Wario *****ery.

 

[lord karn]

I really don't think Wario is too good, no reason to nerf his uair. Uair is also a set up move, you can't rush in uairing and expect it to work, so it should have more payoff combo wise than other moves.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Haha. Ally comes in, ***** with Wario and now the world is ending with Wario *****ery.

It wasn't so much Ally ****** with Wario so much as Ally ****** one match which turned everyone into blubbering ******s.

 

[MK26]

It wasn't so much Ally ****** with Wario so much as Ally ******.

Fix'd

/fan

 

[Thunderhorse+]

There's a difference between "Ally won Pound 4 with Wario against a slew of good players" and "A par-for-the-course Bowser got a proverbial ******* from a better player, who happened to be Ally". Namely that the first situation is more directly related to Ally's skill, and the second had much more to do with the shortcommings of the Bowser than anything Ally did in particular. The first was never an issue, because Ally's doing what he does best. The second somehow caused massive shrinkage and outcry on Wario being nerfed...how?

I don't necessarily disagree with or fervishly support a Wario nerf, but how was it the latter that caused all this hysteria and not the former?

 

[Plum]

Wario is fine.
He doesn't really have polarizing matchups like some characters, there's a group of characters that can abuse his weaknesses, and his damage output was lowered in previous sets to better match his killing power.

Even if he has some great matchups, its not because Wario is broken, but because he is just fit to abuse certain weaknesses. He's definitely a high tier character, but I would put a handful above him, and that's a great position for him to be in.

 

[JCaesar]

Just for the record, I dunno if you guys watched the Pound 4 grand finals videos, but Ally would not have been able to win Pound 4 with Wario. He had to switch to Snake against Lee Martin.

And Wario is definitely not OP.

 

[goodoldganon]

I only posted the video to wonder if bite was a problem move, not that Wario was OP. He's so not OP.

 

[Cia]

good players are OP. we should ban them.

 

[Veril]

Ally is clearly a problem character. He hard counters most of America. We never intended for Ally to be this good, it just sorta happened. With more and more people playing Ally, I think that any changes we make to Ally should be enacted immediately.