Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

[Isatis]

I just found out this is all Sakurai's fault and I've been wasting a lot of my time with these fixes. Originally I had tested Sonic's usmash on different characters and found that the speedup might've had some sort of effect...

Then there's Fox.

Even when trying to usmash Fox at 140%, Fox can still fall out really easily. While playing vBrawl.

I may just go with the original plan of increasing SDIability back to 1.0x and saying screw it.

 

[omegablackmage]

why not make the last few hits have no knockback (or so little they can't get out) and only the final hit sends them anywhere... or is that too drastic?

 

[leafgreen386]

Yeah. You could always use the falco fair angle and give the move enough SDIability that if someone tried to get out, they could, but if they didn't, they'd be stuck in it.

 

[shanus]

angle 365 = win

 

[Isatis]

why not make the last few hits have no knockback (or so little they can't get out) and only the final hit sends them anywhere... or is that too drastic?

No success still, they still get out pretty early when I put the final 4 hits as zero knockback.

 

[Cia]

Maybe a vacuum effect? (Like Peach's Dsmash)

 

[shanus]

No success still, they still get out pretty early when I put the final 4 hits as zero knockback.

Just give it angle 365 until the final hit.

 

[Isatis]

Cape tossed around some numbers that I tried last night on AIM.

Angle 365 actually made it so that at any % on Fox, they just landed as if they weren't hit at all.

Then again I was messing with weight KB, base knockback and knockback growth, so anything could've happened.

 

[Glick]

About the boundaries.

Maybe for the next release, but that's not a small change at all.
Every character is affected, some more then others.
That's besides the fact that people have a faint memorization as to which of their moves kill and where on stage(just based off experience).

For example, this would be a nerf for a character like jigglypuff. She kills at extremly low percents(More like it doesn't matter what percent because it kills so early) and survives at low percents. A stage boundary change would keep her killing ability about the same, yet she'd be surviving a lot less.

An extreme example would be jigglypuff but it would be a complete adjustment that would tamper everyones prior knowledge and potentially need tweaking for certain things for some characters.

It's not a black and white, ratio change that it may seem.

a lot of things are thrown out of balance with a simple change like that.

Just my thoughts on the whole matter.

 

[Veril]

Bionic: did you try changing ∂W bkb to static bkb?

@Glick
I never claimed or even suggested it was a simple change. The fact of the matter is that character survivability is far too high. Jigglypuff only surviving at low% is a myth and we both know it. The only characters that can consistently be KOed at low% are those most susceptible to gimps or well... people playing against Jigglypuff/Bowser. Also... Lucario... nuff said.

At the very least we have to remove the current stage boundary adjustments.

There's a thread specifically for this though, and it would be a lot easier if this discussion continued there.

 

[Glick]

Jigglypuff only surviving at low% is a myth and we both know it.

??

Certainly a lot lower then usual characters.

Jigglypuff can die from snakes up tilt at 80 percent.
Foxes up smash
Zeldas up smash
Luigis up b/ luigis up pointed fsmash

All quick moves that kill her obscenely early
But that's ok, because she kills early....

Jigglypuff dies early. I don't know what you're smoking.


That's not even the point. I was just using her as an example. I don't want to give the idea that i'm being biased. it's a matter with a lot of other characters to.

There was an adjustment? what was it, and how much?

 

[Veril]

EDIT: Moved to the other thread... at the end of the OP

 

[Magus420]

Sheik:
-Chain jacket glitch removed

Copy the hitbox data for the aerial chain into both the EntryR and EntryL sub actions and then terminate the collisions right afterwards. This should address the actual freezing issue directly instead of nuking it entirely because it's capable of freezing the game under specific conditions.

The glitch recalls hitbox data written to memory and applies it to the chain, but if nothing has been written there for that hitbox ID during the match yet it is blank and will cause a freeze. By priming those locations with usable hitbox data at the start of the match, it should no longer be able to freeze the game.

 

[omegablackmage]

cape sez:

for port priority, it seems that damage is processed from player 1 to player 4. Is it possible to make the damage apply all at the same time?

sonic has uthrow chaingrab on falco/falcon 0-58 and mixup chaingrab (upthrow/fthrow) from 60-90.

lucario has an upthrow chaingrab 0-78 on falco/falcon.

mario might have chaingrabs, we haven't tested these.

i have fixes for marios throw already. overall mario's issue is stun on some of his moves, which increasing this could probably fix his combo problems.

If we can figure it out, we want link and bowser to make their own momentum on up b's to improve their recoveries.

Also, try to remove the multi hitting aerial up b (and ground to an extent) to not have them carry opponents through

More later

 

[[TSON]]

Can you elaborate on the last two?
I took it as:

- Remove the autocombo upBs (wtf @ Link, TL, Ganon, Mario, Kirby, and probably lots of others?)
- Rapid-tap B on some recoveries makes them go higher? (This would be easy to code I guess.)

 

[shanus]

I fixed dead frames on jumps in 3 lines. Rejoice in my awesomeness.

 

[MK26]

*rejoices*

hmmm

should we bother making tl's grounded up-b not escapable via holding up on the control stick?

 

[Veril]

Mario does have CGs on Falco/Falcon, those characters get CGed if they don't DI or tech on a platform or if they go final D, which is a great falco stage otherwise. Both Falco and Falcon are really good. Sonic is not especially good.

Lucario's up-throw CG on the other hand was supposed to be removed with the damage change... this is with DI?



Why couldn't you have brought this up when I was like, "Lets wrap this character specific stuff up..." last week

 

[omegablackmage]

my b, i should have elaborated on the up b thing.

Cape doesn't want bowser's up b to 'carry' people through it. It allows people to just ride his up b and then counter attack after he lands (rest in jiggz case).

(veril get on aim, cape's on).

 

[Thunderhorse+]

]Lucario's up-throw CG on the other hand was supposed to be removed with the damage change... this is with DI?



Why couldn't you have brought this up when I was like, "Lets wrap this character specific stuff up..." last week

Yes with DI. Only works on Falco/Falcon though and will only work till about 40%ish (at the very least I have been able to escape it at around 35-40%ish as Falco. Maybe OBM's 70%ish number was gathered from Falcon).

Reason why I never brought it up beforehand (I knew about this because I was personally the victim of it against Cape's Lucario multiple times) was until very recently, Cape stated he didn't mind leaving it in as long as it wasn't a near-global CG (he since changed his stance on this when he found out Falco's uthrow apparently CGs Falco/Falcon as well). Hence I assumed we were going to keep it much like I assumed we were going to keep Yoshi's egg refresh stall (before we actually voted on it of course).

I had brought up my disapproval on Lucario's CG/Yoshi's Egg Stall to Cape personally (he was still project leader at the time), who found those non-issues. No one else decided to bring it up until just now, so I assumed they were going to remain non-issues.

 

[Veril]

I wanted to remove infinites (esp stalls) and CG's that lasted through low%.

>.<

I fixed dead frames on jumps in 3 lines. Rejoice in my awesomeness.

rejoices

 

[GHNeko]

What KIND of CGs?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Well then, reportedly Falco also has a CG on Falco/Falcon.

Me and Cape were discussing tweaks to Falco's uthrow, considering it comboed a little too well at high percents. I suggested adding a bit of KBG, as its combo potential at low percents was fine by me. Cape wanted to increase BKB because he found said uthrow CG. Not having known that prior to...yesterday, increasing BKB sounds like a solid option.

I don't know how long it lasts however. I would have to test this myself. But that's the last CG that I'm aware of.

Guess we can throw that on the table :/.

 

[Veril]

anything that couldn't be DIed out of and could wrack up large amounts of damage... So Marth's u-throw, MK's old d-throw, Pika d-throw esp, etc... those all worked on more than 2 character though...

 

[GHNeko]

Marth uthrow can't regrab if you don't DI left or right and DI up leaving only tilts/aerials as follow ups. If marth CAN regrab, it will end ALOT sooner than if you try to DI left/right and trying to regrab from DIing up/not DIing takes long framewise and has more opportunities to screw up.

 

[The Cape]

Got Mario and Sonic already coded. Will show them to Veril tomorrow. Mario fix was easy as were most of the Sonic fixed but that U smash is ****ING STUPID. (But I fixed it)


Btw CGs:

Sonic U throw/ F throw

Ike D throw/ U throw

Lucario U throw

Falco U throw

Pit D and U throw

Ness U throw to DJC fair to grab

Marth U throw

Zard U throw to uair to regrab

GW U throw

Snake U throw

DDD U throw > nair to regrab (on Falcon)

Mario D/U throw

Ivysaur U throw

ROBs U throw

All dont matter on DI for Falcon and Falco >.>

I think at this point we just need to fix Falcon.

 

[Cia]

Got Mario and Sonic already coded. Will show them to Veril tomorrow. Mario fix was easy as were most of the Sonic fixed but that U smash is ****ING STUPID. (But I fixed it)


Btw CGs:

Sonic U throw/ F throw

Ike D throw/ U throw

Lucario U throw

Falco U throw

Snake U throw

DDD U throw > nair to regrab (on Falcon)

Mario D/U throw

Ivysaur U throw

ROBs U throw

All dont matter on DI for Falcon and Falco >.>

I learned to DI Dedede's Uthrow > Nair. You just have to DI the Nair Up and towards Dedede.

As for the other CG's how effective are they? those are just two characters. to have to change soo many grabs for 2 characters would be kind of silly.

 

[The Cape]

Well we can just change Falcon. A bit less weight on him would be good since he would go farther from the throws and should get out earlier. Falco, being lighter takes these to maybe 20 or 30 or 40 percent less than Falcon. The Lucario one though takes them both pretty hardcore. Gonna have to look at that throw, but I think Falcon needs a tweak on his weight. His fast falling properties already gives him artificial weight and that could be a good counter.

 

[Cia]

Lol.. Lucario's Uthrow is hilarious.

I'm pretty sure Uthrow > Fair > Fair > repeat is a reliable infinite on Sheik (while lucario has no aura) I need to test that more tho.

I've picked up Luc since pound and he might be my best character solely because of what i can do to everyone from Uthrow.

 

[The Cape]

So possibly Falcon weight and then for Lucario:

D throw changed to the right angle (about 93) with more BKB and growth than the current U throw, then make U throw either have high base and almost no growth, or drop people to the ground for a tech. (U throw is a ***** to edit).

 

[[TSON]]

my b, i should have elaborated on the up b thing.

Cape doesn't want bowser's up b to 'carry' people through it. It allows people to just ride his up b and then counter attack after he lands (rest in jiggz case).

(veril get on aim, cape's on).

Oh, so you're going to give the first hit some real KB? I'm all for that.

 

[Veril]

Oh, so you're going to give the first hit some real KB? I'm all for that.

No, we aren't. The only thing that's up for discussion right now are inescapable CGs, which are really only an issue for CF.

Well we can just change Falcon.

this is preferable to changing that many throws.

 

[MK26]

So possibly Falcon weight and then for Lucario:

D throw changed to the right angle (about 93) with more BKB and growth than the current U throw, then make U throw either have high base and almost no growth, or drop people to the ground for a tech. (U throw is a ***** to edit).

why not try giving it a little more endlag perhaps?

also, if veril was talking to me, the question "who uses tl's grounded up-b?" begs to be asked. The sheer number of hits and total length of time means its way too easy to sdi on reaction...and even inaction

 

[JCaesar]

Who said TL's grounded up-B needs to be useful?

 

[Blinds]

Who said TL's grounded up-B needs to be useful?

Ditto. Not all moves need to be useful. Yoshi's egg lay anyone?

 

[5ive]

Who said TL's grounded up-B needs to be useful?

Ditto Ditto. TL =/= Link.

 

[The Cape]

So Falcon weight, Lucario U throw, Sonic changes, Mario changes, Ike sideB, and Wolf physics

- Falcon weight: Make him lighter (helps to KO him a bit and removes CGs)
- Lucario U throw: It has 38 frames of advantage on JIGGS at 0. **** needs more base to remove its 0 to death CGs on Fox, Falco, and Falcon
- Sonic: I have some changes for him. Fixed his U throw, D throw, U smash, Uair, and jabs and I can upload the .pac once I finish putting it back together.
- Mario: D and U throw as well as the dair change (working on values). With good DI he has 0 followups even if he reads you. Really bad for an already bad character that throw combos alot.
- Ike's sideB: Remove the speed up, make the attack refresh his jump in the air. Already tested it because the on stage applications of the move are STUPID.
- Wolf's physics: Scrubbiest character in the game as is, and you cant combo him at all. Its like fighting a vBrawl character that can spam his smashes. This will make him one of the best characters, if not the best, if its not fixed.

 

[VietGeek]

if we do change wolf's physics (which i doubt >_>)

either remove the super armor off of wolf's reflector (and leave it invincible) or at the very least reprogram the sequence of events that call for the reflection of projectiles. It seems extremely idiotic, whether by intention or not to just have it eat both the projectile and its damage for the first part of the Reflector (the one with hitbox).

Also I want to ask if it's a good idea to remove the concept of 'silent' laser. Since it's optimal to always "silent" laser with Falco, should we just fix the SFX call to always come out (similar to Melee)? We should do this with Fox too. This is more of a asethics thing but no one said anything the last time I mentioned it (which while I will assume that means "No that's stupid", I'm stubborn enough to bring it up again).

 

[omegablackmage]

i will agree that wolf is quite scrubby. Dsmash that is incredibly spammable, reflector that gets him out of so many combos, side b that puts huge risk on edgeguarding him, easy to use projectile, and more. Im not sure how we could go about fixing this, or if we should wait until the 6 months are up to see how he's doing.

 

[JCaesar]

What happened to our promise of stability?