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Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

Dantarion

Smash Champion
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New Code:

We can now make Brawl+ replays save with a different prefix, making it so that Only B+ replays are shown.

Pros:
No wondering if its a vBrawl or Brawl+ replay

Cons:
Can't delete Brawl+ replays from vBrawl, and vice versa.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Just what to remind people of the non-balance related changes I proposed:

kk going off tangent here:

does anyone plan to make a purely cosmetic speed-up to the ledge grab animation? While the "holding ledge" animation has been sped up, the ledge grab animation has not. It looks like it lacks fluidity. However it looks fine in vBrawl.

:012:
Also I want to ask if it's a good idea to remove the concept of 'silent' laser. Since it's optimal to always "silent" laser with Falco, should we just fix the SFX call to always come out (similar to Melee)? We should do this with Fox too. This is more of a aesthetics thing but no one said anything the last time I mentioned it (which while I will assume that means "No that's stupid", I'm stubborn enough to bring it up again).
I would be up for the silent laser change. I'll never get used to performing 10+ perfect SHLs with no sound. It just seems awkward, but as you said, more of an aesthetic change, so it shouldn't be really high up as far as priority fixes are concerned.
And...probably do something about TL's dair sweetspot effect.

kk over.

when i think of veril reading these post, i think of him doing some sort of sexy pose while being maddd cute:

 

goodoldganon

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Was playing Brawl+ last night and got tripped by DK and Ganon's f-air. What ever happened to trying to remove tripping on moves that weren't a d-tilt?
 

Revven

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GoG, it was deemed as "too much work" to do (mainly because almost every move in the game happens to use the Sakurai angle and having to go through and adjust each move to the appropriate angle and test it would be a pain to do). I believe it's going to be done in P:M though.
 

The Cape

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Mario:
U tilt:
- All hitboxes to 55 BKB and 80 KBG

Dair:
- Weak hits to 365 angle

U throw:
- Angle changed to 93 from 100

D throw:
- Angle changed to 87 from 90
- 45 KBG from 50



Sonic:

- First jab all hits to 4B KBG from 64
- Second jab all hits to size 5 and 4B KBG from 64

- Usmash:
- First hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 89 degrees, and 75 BKB
- Second hitbox changed to 4 dmg, 90 degrees, and 76 BKB
- Added hitbox the frame after the previous two end:
- Duration 2 frames
- 260 degree angle, 35 BKB, Size 6, placed on the neck
- Time between final launching hitbox and repeating hitboxes changed to 5 frames from 7 (to compensate for the new hitbox)
- Looping hitboxes changed to 365 angle

Uair:
- First four hitboxes to .7 hitlag and SDI from 1x
- First four hitboxes to 75 KBG from 100

U throw:
- 96 angle from 100
- 60 KBG from 70
- 85 BKB from 65

D throw:
- 35 angle from 20


*Air humps*


Yea, I fixed Sonic U smash. It works unless you are inside them when you start it at a full run. Veril has the .pacs for this ****. Gonna go sing my own praises and get some *****es at the bar with my awesome coding skills. Booyah!
 

omegablackmage

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stuff looks good cape, yami had me try out the sonic upsmash. Maybe make the final hitbox a little stronger so that it'll kill at 150 or so.
 

The Cape

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Thats the easy fix.

If we make it into a special offensive collision as well so we could make it non reversible (I think thats how it works) that would allow the move to go the proper directions at least.
 

Veril

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I'm gonna go and assume that since Sonic and Mario are arguably non-viable characters atm, you all are cool with Cape's proposed changes...

Now, we've still got to come to some sort of consensus on stage boundary adjustments. I know that KO% won't be reduced uniformly as per moves having different ratios of bkb to kbg, that said reducing the size of stage boundaries WILL lower KO%, which is the desired goal. KO moves are not wildly different from eachother to the extent that messing with the boundaries will radically alter their KO power relative to eachother.

What I'd like to see is for moves that are kbg heavy and bkb light to kill about 5-10% earlier on the neutrals, ie a move that would KO at 150 normally would now KO at 135-142%.

FYI: I am really sick with the flu atm D:
 

The Cape

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Change the sides is good, but then we need to address moves that already kill really low and hit fairly often.

Examples:
GW Smash attacks
Ness B throw
Jiggs Rest
etc

Things like Bowser F smash seem to be fine with how strong it is since its slow and the double hit makes it avoidable. DDD and Snake F smashes too.

Edit2:
**** you too Veril
 

Veril

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Moves that already kill really low will be less affected than moves that kill at higher % but have a highly char/% dependent setup. We don't need to address low % KO moves. They'll kill slightly lower, "shrug".

I'm working on the stage adjustments, should have something for you all to look at tonight or tomorrow, depending on how sick I stay :(

Edit2:
**** you too Veril
<3
 

Isatis

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[collapse="Zelda+ topic"]
A mighty evil has befallen Lady Zelda+. The mighty creators have destroyed her Usmash:

Lowered the hit boxes far below Battlefield platform height. Effects:
- Shield poking is non-existant
- Warioware and Battlefield are no longer solid counterpick stages
- Her offensive use of Usmash has nearly been eliminated
- No platform ****
- It's been reduced to "wait for him to jump over top you then press C-stick up"

They added invulnerability to her body, head and arms because without it, nearly every Dair, Nair and Fair could go right through the move. The invulnerability is now a problem because she can be hit by one of Peach's bombs and take no damage if she is Usmashing.

Here are the solutions they are discussing:
1) Remove invulnerability from body and chest. Leave it on Head and Arms.
2) Give her heavy armor instead
3) Put invulnerability on her whole body but just for frames 6 & 7

Problems with these:
1) This is the exact same move that is crap right now except they made her even more vulnerable. This is further nerfing a move that just got a major nerf. It is crap and is not acceptable. THIS IS THE CHOICE THEY ARE FAVORING RIGHT NOW
2) This is the solution the backroom chose the first time around. She would be taking damage like crazy or being knocked out of Usmash constantly. Again, this is crap and is not acceptable.
3) This was suggested to "reward timing." What it does is nothing. There is a 1 frame window to power shield, so why would I chance trying to hit the 1/30th of a second window that is the window they want to give Usmash. There would be no invulnerability either so it would FURTHER nerf the move. This is extreme crap and should never be brought up again.

WE MUST STAND UP AS ZELDAS AND FIGHT FOR OUR HEART AND SOUL, USMASH!

Here is a more detailed history of this move:

- Raw version from vBrawl was too powerful and was nerfed in power
- Next version was comboed into everything and was given a slight boost to power
- Next version killed everyone at 80% so I believe an angle change and knockback change was made
- 5.0 version had knockback figured out and the complaints for the move stopped
THEN CAME THE HELL THAT WAS GSH & NEAR-GOLD SERIES
- GSH brought the current Usmash into play
- The hitboxes were lowered so it could not hit SSE Jungle level platforms and no invulnerability was placed on there
- After I personally played with this set, I discovered Zelda had no defense in the air. Nearly every dair, some nairs, and some fairs were going right through Usmash knocking her out of the move. FF Nair from Fox could go through the move.
- After talking with the designer, Cape, he put the invulnerability frames in because he didn't want to put the vertical range back. It was his idea to lower the hitboxes because he felt Usmash was overpowered. In his words "once you get in the air above Zelda, you are dead"
- Now, the invulnerability frames are a problem since Peach's bombs won't harm her. I have played a match where a Ganon punch went right through her. Falco's lasers can be shot through her. THIS IS A PROBLEM.

I am proposing we revert back to the 5.0 Usmash on these grounds:
1) The range nerf was a product of one person having a hatred for the move. The nerf was decided on by that person, and it was not a group decision. Now that there is a backroom, 5.0 Usmash should be voted on to be put back as the move was never over powered to begin with.

2) Battlefield and Warioware were her best stages. She lacks counterpick stages because the edges are funky and destroy her recovery if you shoot for the edge. The platforms were able to be Usmashed limiting an opponent's ability to approach playing into her defense game, and the stages were small enough to force action from a projectile spammer.

Now, her best stages are PS2 and FD. Both of these are projectile spammer dreams which is her biggest weakness. They limit approach options, but she has to stay on the same plane and fight them. There is no options for offensive game, and she gets destroyed.

3) There is no shield poke game anymore. The hitboxes are so low that they hit the meat of the shield. Before, a player could tilt the shield up to protect against a poke. Now, they just have to shield. It is no longer an option to try and shield poke with this move further deteriorating her offensive options which were limited to being with.

4) LESS MOVES CAN GO THROUGH IT NOW. Yeah, the point of the nerf was so when you got above Zelda, you wouldn't die. Now, only TLink's dair (in my testing) is capable of getting through a correctly read Zelda Usmash. Before, a lot more moves were capable of getting through.

With the hitboxes lower, it creates an orb of TP around her. It is very difficult to punish the move from the side other than shield grab. The hitboxes protect her from the side.

This was the only buff part of the nerf. Unfortunately, it already had a good base of moves that it defended against and didn't need this.

5) Zelda was a middle of the road character in 5.0. She got lower when this move was altered. She is not an overpowering character nor does she rely so heavily on this move that it is her character. But, her game is based around a great defensive move set and enough power to make up for offensive combo heavy opponents. It works and balances her out. This move change lessened her ability to stand up to the rest of the cast. Taking away counterpick stages gives her far less options than she ever had before.

6) The move is now 1-dimensional. Zelda must set this move up to use it offensively. With the shield pokes before, it was a move you could lead into or pressure them when they were on a platform.

Now, the only thing it is good for is retaliating against an aerial attack. Offensively, dtilt needs to combo into it for it to be useful.

7) Me and other Zeldas are completely unhappy with the move. This was the be all move in regular brawl, but it has taken such a change from its original form that it is nearly another tool in her case.

With that said, vBrawl Zeldas are going to have problems switching over when the move they have relied on so much in vBrawl is no longer anything other than a 1-dimensional defensive move.

8) She was one of the few balanced characters in 5.0. She required you pick up a secondary to face her weaker match-ups. Now, she is nothing more than a secondary as she is fading behind all the other characters. All the bad characters I keep hearing about ways to catch them up to the rest of the pack, but Zelda is being pushed to the back of the bus for no reason at all. She was quietly sitting in the middle with her seat belt on and simply asking for someone to fix her reflector.

9) 5.0 Usmash was neither overpowered or broken. It did not warrant change. It is broken now, and it requires change. We should return to the form it used to be. This is a form already researched, tried, tested, and approved. Why wouldn't it be the ideal change?

10) Several other moves hit through platforms. DDD's Utilt kills insanely low (better than our Usmash) and hits right through Battlefield platforms. It even shield pokes if the shield is worn down from below. And somehow our move's ability to hit platforms was removed but his remained. DDD is a far better character, I will admit, and he still has this ability. He's not alone in this ability (being a better character and still hitting platforms with moves), and I call shenanigans.

We Zeldas should not take this. We aren't going to take this. We will not take this. We want our Usmash back.

For all those who are with me, start posting. Let your voice be heard. The backroom has dismissed any reasoning on my end despite the fact that THE BACKROOM HAS NO ONE WITH ANY CREDIBILITY FOR PLAYING ZELDA AND THEY ARE DECIDING THESE CHANGES WITHOUT CONSULTING ANYONE FROM THE ZELDA COMMUNITY!!!!

ZELDAS UNITE!!!

:bandit:
To be perferctly fair, unless you talked to Riot and he had stronger feelings than I thought, it's a little silly to put his name in when he hasn't commentated himself.

And I know for a fact, cause I've watched it happen, OBM has talked to Riot every chance he's had about Zelda. To find out an opinion from a Zelda Mains stand point.
Took his name out and edited wording.

I am in the same crew as Cape, and he will not listen to me. My crew consists of Thunderhorse, JCaesar, Cape, Bionic Sonic and others. Those 4 are in the backroom, so I get to see and hear things long before the public does (no, I am not throwing my weight around, I am simply pointing out my position). I was never consulted despite how much I have talked about Zelda in the past with those guys.

I contacted Veril and expressed my discontent with how things are, but no one has acknowledged my pleas or come to me to see what might be a problem. I contacted the person (who I was told) who was in charge of Zelda changes to no avail. My comments were posted in the backroom and dismissed.

If OBM has been talking to Riot, then he should feel the pain we are feeling right now. I'm glad Riot has been sought after for help because he is one of the best regular brawl Zeldas there are.

It is still no excuse for no public consultation. Someone asking for opinions at a tournament are good, but it is not good enough.
I'm with you bandit. Although I have about as much weight as a toothpick in a hurricane.
Offensively, usmash is overshadowed by utilt(greater kill power) if we're talking about comboing from dtilt. Yes, the only use that usmash has right now is for punishing aerials. Hope they fall into it and slam up on the c-stick.

The usmash hitting on platforms above Zelda were never a huge problem to begin with due to the fact that the entire move isn't guarenteed to hit you at all. Comparing this move with DDD uptilt may have been a bad example though, since he's extending his hurtbox above the platform as well (I've been hit by an Ike fsmash on the upper Halberd platform in this way). However I see your point. Several other characters have utilts/upsmashes that hit on platforms directly above them and aside from Zelda's long lasting hitbox (which Lucas also has), I don't see what she really had over them.

The last two changes are terrible. The first one...doesn't exactly make the upsmash any better but is a sensible preferred option. Still though, RC1 upsmash was a better move than this and I would be much happier to see it return.

Now how do we argue the necessity of this is the question.
A smart Zelda uses Usmash when a poke will happen or when the platform punishment was possible along with its defensive capabilities.

Both of those options are gone.

A limited offensive character now has less offensive options.

Her approach moves are Nair, Bair, and DC Dtilt.

Nair is great, Bair is mediocre and punishable if you sweet spot their shield, and DC Dtilt is pretty decent. Dtilt used to hit shields twice or three times and could lead to a poke from Usmash.

USmash Timeline:
- Usmash comboed into LK's and Uairs in the lower to mid%, this was given a knockback growth increase
- Usmash killed too easy with that change so it was given a base knockback increase and growth decrease
- Usmash was too easy to land, so it was given a range decrease but invulnerability frames when it was proven so many aerials went through it
- Usmash invulnerability shown to be exploitable making it too safe so it is being nerfed

Now it is a 17% A-A gun with little to no follow ups and decent killing power that is shield grabbable and punished from the sides that is unable to hit platforms and only encourages the player to camp more.

Why this move continues to be touched is beyond me.

-----

If 5.0 is not an answer, then I don't know what is. The fix they are leaning toward is borrowed from another project.

Usmash is constantly being nerfed with every set. They only have 2 things left to nerf on it:
1) Damage
2) Speed of Move/Windup/Wind down/

Everything else has been nerfed:
1) Combos
2) Kill Power
3) Range
4) Shield Poke
5) Ability to Punish the Move

Invulnerability frames were the first time anyone ever compensated for a nerf to the move. Now, they are even being limited due to admitted exploits. The Falco lasers going through her I just discovered this past weekend.

If they use the Invulnerability only on the head and arms, it doesn't seem to change much about the move except it is more punishable from the sides, and (while it hasn't been tested enough on my end) allow more moves to penetrate it from the top.

-----

Due to the nature of the SDI capability and direction of the multi-hits, a person was frozen on the platform during the move. This allowed a follow up or another Usmash. The problem was it sometimes didn't hit with the big hit which caused the character to be stuck on the platform.
How about this idea:

We should just completely erase all B+ changes to zelda, and start fresh.

She seems to be the most awkward and most old-ganon(****ty and still ****** good at the same time in certain aspects) status.

I think with the new team we would create an amazing character. If we started it now it would certainly get done by the next release (in what, 293u409238429038409234 months?)

For now, it should really be reverted back to 5.0 hitbox. and no invincibility frames.

Damage and power can be fiddled with.
I don't know anything about upsmash besides what it is in Vbrawl, and what is now in Brawl+. I am just going to say my thoughts about EVERYTHING I noticed playing competitive Brawl+

My thoughts are this:

Upsmash:

- It's not a particularly bad move... but I really don't find it poking through platforms to be game breaking when tons of other characters can do it... And it is weird to have to rethink my counter picks.

- It just looks dumb... When you are upsmashing and characters are shooting or throwing projectile through you it make the move seem poorly designed.

- Having a powerful anti-air is important when Zelda's air options are still so incredibly limited. The nerf makes it less useful for that... never mind that Zelda is still one of the slowest ground characters soooo....... it really wasn't that big of a deal.

- It isn't nearly as good offensively. I was hyphen smashing into people and instead of being shield poked (Like they should have for letting Zelda get that close) they could shield through the entire thing with ease. Not good...

- On the plus side it gave her up tilt more purpose... Honestly I think uptilt should have the invincibility since it so slow still and only has very limited uses still.

Overall I really don't like what they did to it....

Uptilt: I feel like this move pretty much stayed the same... still only useful in a few situations and combos.

Ftilt: Still completely out-shined by Fsmash for spacing and speed. Only useful in combos and surpises. Maybe you could make it fast or give it set-knockback so that it always combos pretty well? It is definitely riskier to use this rather than Fsmash so it should offer some sort of reward.

Dtilt: I didn't really notice anything too different other than some differences in the % for the lock from Vbrawl.

Nayrus's: I didn't use this move much since I am not accustom to using it very often in Vbrawl. I don't know the exact details but it seems pretty much the same... which means it is not very useful. I think it would be cool to allow Zelda to sort of float at walking speed while she is using it. That would be mildly helpful when she is getting camped.

Din's: Same old same old here. Can be used in the air now w/o freefall which is good sometimes when recovering. The amount of lag it has in the air though makes it less useful for comboing than I had hoped.

Farore's: Same old again. It seems a little bit faster on startup, but still puts her in freefall. (Why does Lucario get to not free fall and Zelda can't?). If she is still going to freefall at least have so that (for example) if you hold the B button throughout the move she teleports half as far, that way she has two lengths she can go and it will be a little safer to recover with her... That or no freefall I think it needs one or the other. (obviously you wouldn't be able to use it again until she touches the ground.

Fair/Bair: Pretty much the same. I heard from OBM that the sweetspots are bigger, but to a Vbrawl Zelda main that doesn't matter much.

Up air: Still the same it seems. Nothing I noticed seemed off.

Dair: Why can't this sweetspot on the ground? That is crazy lame when Zelda's air options suck already against grounded opponents. Such a slow move with poor range deserves to do more than 5 damage. Honestly it doesn't even need to pop them up like Ganon's or anything, just do like 15% or something. Not abysmal when your enemy is in the air, but still not great.

Nair: Seems around the same to me. Does it do a little bit more damage? And with the stun it seems harder for enemies to escape, which is good...




Overall: It is still the same old Zelda... Still very vulnerable in the air, but now she isn't as good on the ground. It seems in the end like Zelda really didn't get what she needed to be even with the rest of the cast, she still has some matchups that will just obliterate her showing that she has some hey weaknesses. It seems like her air game was left roughly the same, which is high-risk high-reward but almost useless against grounded opponents. And her ground game nerfed, making her air game even more important...

Just my thoughts...

<3 Riot.
I do think it's interesting that Zelda's Usmash was basically segregated when there are moves better in many ways left alone, and on arguably better characters.

DDD's Utilt is the easy example. Fast, very hard to punish when used correctly, stabs through any platform, easy to combo into at low percents, possible to combo into at kill percents, almost universally guaranteed out of an inhale release, combos into almost anything at low and mid percents, kills very early, and invincible on hit. For any move that has the range to hit his Utilt he has an answer to. Between Utilt, Bair, Said, Fair and grabs DDD's aerial defense largely exceeds a character like Zelda and she's supposed to be a defensive powerhouse. Some things confuse me in this game... At this point I agree with those who just want it to go back to 5.0.
[/collapse]

Well, since Zelda usmash buffs are a hot topic (and Veril still needs to explain further about his buff/nerf sticky that I just saw a day ago existed), might be good to get some discussion going about the usmash.

Up to Veril whether or not he wants a vote or not.
 

The Cape

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I just have to say it again (because we saw this with the Marth thing, gave in, and it got worse).

Brawl+: Complain til you get your way.

I wish people would try to understand ANYTHING before they go making wild assumptions.
 

Yeroc

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These are all the things that we have had changed since 6.0. Cape has a detailed list.

thecape77: Charizard
thecape77: Ike
thecape77: Jiggs
thecape77: Kirby
thecape77: Luigi
thecape77: Lucario
thecape77: Mario
thecape77: Marth
thecape77: MK
thecape77: Olimar
thecape77: Pikachu
thecape77: ZSS
thecape77: Sonic
thecape77: Wolf
thecape77: Zelda
thecape77: And the stages
 

The Cape

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Zard = Roll

Ike = SideB (Speed change and .pac change)

Jiggs = Bair and U throw (Speed and .pac)

Kirby = D throw BKB, F smash, and F throw

Luigi = UpB hitlag snap and dair BKB

Lucario = U throw element change and BKB increase

Mario = Changes posted before

Marth = Fair fix (remove last two frames of hitbox and go back to regular IASA), physics, and aerial stop revert

MK = IDC removal

Olimar = Elec throws fix

Pikachu = Thunderjolt fix

ZSS = SideB weak hit fix

Sonic = All changes posted before but U throw KBs back to vBrawl (with new angle) and fair final hit is non reversible

Wolf = Physics and shine fix

Zelda = U smash coding fix

Stages = Walljump fixes (FD and WW)
Mansion
Pictochat
Port Town
NPC

Still need walljumping fixes on:
PS2
Yoshi's
Halberd
Castle Siege

Can anyone do these?

Yeroc and I can post up these fixes (.gct and .pacs) sometime tomorrow for people to look at.
 

Glick

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Before I forget:

Jiggz up throw up air works on falcon. The current one. not sure about the beta .pac for gold.
 

FrozenHobo

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Stages = Walljump fixes (FD and WW)
Mansion
Pictochat
Port Town
NPC

Still need walljumping fixes on:
PS2
Yoshi's
Halberd
Castle Siege

Can anyone do these?

Yeroc and I can post up these fixes (.gct and .pacs) sometime tomorrow for people to look at.
i think we have wall jump fixes for those 4 (not sure about PS2) in the competitive stage hack thread, but maestro hasn't updated the OP with links.
 

The Cape

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i think we have wall jump fixes for those 4 (not sure about PS2) in the competitive stage hack thread, but maestro hasn't updated the OP with links.
Can you get me links please?

Glick: I'll test in the AM

Also I forgot to mention, Yeroc and I put together a texture pack including the original zelda and sheik .pacs. We then removed that transform with the one frame til you can move. The transform is faster, but not super safe. See what you guys think (will include it).
 

Isatis

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i think we have wall jump fixes for those 4 (not sure about PS2) in the competitive stage hack thread, but maestro hasn't updated the OP with links.
PM me what needs to be added and I'll add it to the OP for future reference.
 

Isatis

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I thought that wasn't going to be added in due to the modified FD's lip turned into a wall (so Charizard can just ride up it instead)?

Also, because Cape wants me to post this to remind him: I heard including a character's FitMotionEtc pac (in this case, just the vBrawl kind) on the SD card can speed up Zelda/Sheik's loading time.
 

Plum

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I made a post a while ago about it, but I don't think it ever got a response...
In every download of Cape's sets I've gotten Luigi's Up B has had the laggy landing animation removed. That animation where his head is in the ground and he pulls himself out is just skipped and he just immediately stands up.
 

Yeroc

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Bionic, having a texture file does the same thing. I downloaded all the unedited texture files for all the costumes of all the transforming characters. They all now have static transform times. Go me.

I also think Zard is fine as is, especially with FD wall changes.

Luigi thing is new to me.

I'll go check for any other stage files that already exist.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
Marth = Fair fix (remove last two frames of hitbox and go back to regular IASA), physics, and aerial stop revert
i thought it was just the very last frame of the hitbox.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9367682&postcount=42

when veril meant terminate on frame 6, pretty sure he was going by PSA frames (and the animation data by SHeLL).

although i'll leave that for him to decide.

ya im a *****

thats why veril dumped me

obviously

obv
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Yeroc and I played with it. The last frame is the sword under and behind Marth. The second to last one is right below him (problem hitbox). Thats why they were both removed. Fixes the FHDL issue better than the IASA change in this way.
 
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