Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Alphatron]

I noticed that Zelda's Nayru fix isn't mentioned in the governance thread. Does this mean she won't be getting it after all?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Nayru's fix is not only still on the table, it is actively being coded right now. We have every intention of continuing to fix Nayru.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I just fired up B+ 6 and tried Nayru's and I'm not sure what's wrong with it. I'd have looked it up but the Zelda+ thread is gone. What's wrong with Nayru's?

 

[Bandit]

Physical projectiles it would only 50/50 chance of reflecting the object. It would always stop it, but the damage hit boxes would hit the object and not the reflecting hit boxes. So ROB's gyro would hit Zelda's reflector, stop momentarily in the air, and maintain ROB's item possession.

It didn't happen everytime, but it happened enough to cause problems.

 

[Alphatron]

Doesn't always reflect solid projectiles. Sometimes they hit Zelda or Nayru's Love will just hit the projectile instead. See ROBs gyro.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Is there any chance of a 6.1 release soon. So that the smaller adjustments that are easy to code can be implimented. I want to get used to Jiggs smaller Bair and stuff sooner rather than later. As I can't tell how much I'm abusing the extra range since I never really abused it this much in vBrawl.

Just curious, if you're waiting for a legit gold or if we can expect an update here and there changing the little things leading up to a gold.

 

[Alphatron]

It makes more sense to implement the changes all at once though, rather than annoy people by doing it bit by bit. I'm not sure why Jiggs ever got the bair buff in the first place though.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Because she's cute. And everyone wanted her to be super cute and all "HIYAA!"

And I see what you're saying. I'm just curious and impatient.

 

[smashmaniac2008]

when is "Brawl+ 7.0 Final Build finally it's Gold" coming out?

 

[Veril]

When its ready.

I don't want to set any unrealistic deadlines though I hope within the next two weeks. I know people are getting antsy but this needs to get done right.

 

[xANDERssbb]

idk if i can ask this here but can anyoen give me a code or al ink to a code that wil lallow my CPS and css get threw the gecko os freeze boot up? Im a NTSC user thanks ive tried someoen elsecode and tried to make sure all of the files i have on my common5.pac were lz77 but yet they freeze please help

 

[Isatis]

Ask here, xANDERssbb: http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=232

 

[Shadic]

when is "Brawl+ 7.0 Final Build finally it's Gold" coming out?

I propose that to be the name of 7.0.

 

[Seris]

Is anything going to be done to lucas's up-b so he can ride up stages instead of bounce off in the other direction?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm more concerned about the random crashes that occur after leavnig the wifi menu and after ending matches on certain stages (Brinstar, for example).

 

[Revven]

I'm more concerned about the random crashes that occur after leavnig the wifi menu and after ending matches on certain stages (Brinstar, for example).

That deals with the CSS code and as far as I know, nobody knows how to fix it. Just try not to exit/enter the menus so quickly.

 

[VietGeek]

I hope the Dash Cancel code can be refined without losing its familiarity so that holding shield when ending the game doesn't hang any more. =/

 

[Isatis]

Holding buttons after a match make it freeze. No particular stage does.

And I thought it was the Dash Cancel code that made it freeze, not the Custom CSS?

@Serris: Yes.

 

[Yeroc]

The shield holding bug has been fixed, but somehow the code causing it remained in the GCT. It will be gone in the next release. The stick holding bug, caused by the dash cancel code, is what I'm still working on, but I'm hoping to have that fixed soon too.

 

[UltyBomber77]

was the colored shields code left out of the GCT on purpose?

 

[leafgreen386]

was the colored shields code left out of the GCT on purpose?

No.
.

 

[iLink]

I just remembered about shanus' code regarding the removal of the dead frame during the jump. Is that going to be included in the next build?

 

[zaf]

Don't know if this belongs here/ don't care, but what would it take to get at least ONE player From montreal in the WBR for B+. Ontario has 5ive, and all of Ontario got handled by Montreal. We know our characters better and it clearly shows since one of our players who now gets top 3 here is a yoshi main. We are just as competitive as any other community and I'm sure we house the best players. Seeing as some of them win your us tournies. We have just as much input on the game as anyone else and seeing as we play as much as anyone else we should have atleast one player in the wbr who can get that input in from our community.

 

[Jer]

What zaf said

 

[Dan_X]

As far as I knew the WBR isn't the United Nations. Hence, they don't need representation from various nations and countries. Last I heard, the acceptence into the WBR had more to do with the individual person, and their contributions, than where they are from... I think it's funny that you say you "house the best players." I'm sure good players are everywhere... I wouldn't even say that about where I live as I recognize skill isn't limited to specific areas.

Eitherway, stop whining? Maybe someone from Montreal should apply to the WBR when they are looking for new members?

 

[Veril]

Is anything going to be done to lucas's up-b so he can ride up stages instead of bounce off in the other direction?

For whatever reason, its possible to ride up the left side of stages (notably FD) but not the right side. >.<

Nothing about Lucas specificially is gonna get changed.

what would it take to get at least ONE player From montreal in the WBR for B+

Filling out an application next time we're looking for new members.

 

[5ive]

@zaf: Montreal handled us, not you specifically <3.

I'm in the WBR because of my contributions and loyalty, not skill. No one in the WBR is in specifically because of tournament placings. If they aren't helpful people with GOOD contributions, they aren't going to be recognized. Ally is a good player, but does he post here? No. What, outside of his smash placings, has constructively helped the project to move forward. Not sure. I'm not saying that you don't have good contributions (I saw your TL stuff), but it was really your fault that you didn't make an application.

 

[Yeroc]

Zaf, I appreciate you enthusiasm, but I don't think you quite fully understand how I've set up the new WBR.

As 5ive has said, I admit members based on their ability to contribute to one (or more!) of the projects I now house within the WBR. It's not solely a Brawl+ workshop anymore, though being the biggest project of the Workshop and the WBR it does tend to be the most active. This isn't to say your input and feedback wouldn't be appreciated. Ultimately Veril is the person you should talk to about submitting ideas, suggestions, or feedback about various Brawl+ aspects. He'll take them under consideration, and then in turn when I announce another admissions period, we'll be able to take those contributions into consideration along with your application.

 

[Wind Owl]

I don't suppose you'd be willing to disclose a tentative date for applications...?

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

I have some questions about the stages. What stages are going to have there boundaries adjusted? Are all the stages that possibly need adjustments going to be looked at and fixed, or will it only be neutral stages? Also are those changes going to be rather noticeable or will they be more subtle?

 

[zaf]

Well i think the fact that Montreal being a strong community would benefit the wbr. Great players overall have more knowledge of the game, therefore can give a greater input. I'm always posting in the tl thread, although it is a joke. Jer now runs the jigz thread.

5ive, look at marik compared to elef. Marik is a yoshi main who complains that yoshi is no where next to good. But elef placed 2nd and 3rd in the past two tournies. I think it says something about the players knowledge of the character. Now wouldn't it be "Good" to have this sort of knowledge in the wbr?

Elef never posts, because all the yoshi players and *******es and never listen to a thing from him. Not much motivation to keep posting.

if waiting for an application is what we need to do, then so be it

 

[Bandit]

I don't want to diminish your region, but your last tournament had 13 entrants. Basing a comparison of any two players off a tournament with this little amount of entrants is wreckless. Besides, as people have said, skill means nothing to the WBR. Knowledge and input towards the game as a whole is what they are looking for.

 

[zaf]

I know we have low attendance, but it's quality over quantity in our region. There really isn't an easy beat for anyone.

As for the Skill level thing. I do not mean it in such a way that i mean to come off as "Hey im better then you, i should be in the wbr". When i mentioned it, it was because our players skill come from knowing their character very well. When ever we discuss characters and why we do what, it is critical thinking that comes down to numbers, frames and situations. Which in turn makes us knowledgeable of our characters. This knowledge we have, we wish to input into the wbr as well. We feel that there are some things we know of that maybe the wbr might not know. At the same time we are willing to learn everything.

 

[stingers]

corey you're so professional these days...o.o

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

How do you guys feel about how long people survive in this game? I personally believe that people survive much too long, it seems like most of one's kills come not gimping (which is much less prominent in this game) but from actually finishing someone off screen. Often I've seen people are surviving well beyond 120%+. The sense of vulnerability and the riskiness of being off the ledge is still there, but has been watered down from the previous installments of smash. You can argue that this is a new game, but that sense of danger when you're knocked off is what made smash so fun.

I realize that the backroom is indeed doing something to fix this: making stage boundaries smaller, but I don't really like this idea. I'm not sure how to word it. When I come up with why, I'll be sure to let you guys know.

I'd like to point out what I believe causes people to survive so long and then talk about what we can do about it (if anything):

1. Characters are still rather floaty.
2. Reimplementation of stale moves.
3. It's still too easy to recover.
4. DI is too powerful.
5. Powershielding on accident sometimes shifts defense to offense, prolonging fights.

Number 1 can be fixed with gravity, but you guys already came to the conclusion that making characters heavier, whether or not it would improve the game, is too much work due to all the retweaking of the moves it would require and since you're too far along in the development this would be incredibly stupid to do since you're trying to get this game done as soon as possible. (Which I still don't understand, this is a fan-made game, so we have no deadlines, and this is supposed to be the definite version of Smash..) But fine, if that's your guy's conviction, the fast paced gameplay can be saved for Project M.

For Number 2, I realize that the stale moves was reintroduced but only at 75% the power. I don't think anything needs to be done, but this adds to why people die later.

Number 3 I believe strongly needs to be addressed. Overall recoveries are too powerful and too easy to use. Some have hitboxes in places that don't make sense, or hitboxes that are ridiculously strong for no reason (Mario's UpB, Ganon's UpB, Wolf's Forward B) making them annoying to punish and grab boxes that grab at absurdly long distances. (Captain Falcon's upB, Samus' UpB) I personally believe that everyone's recovery should be pretty easy to screw with, it's just the distances and ease at which they can return that should vary.

Number 4 is another issue that I believe really needs to be looked at. Watching some recent Brawl+ vids between more experienced players, many people DI almost nearly straight up against finishing moves. I'm not familiar with Melee's DI system, but I do know that in Melee it was really hard to DI, whether it was because it got harder at higher percents, or the timing was more precise or for some other reason, but I am pretty sure that it required a bit more expertise in Melee. I believe that this is something that should be looked into as well.

Number 5 is something I brought up a bit ago, but I believe that you guys are already addressing, but I threw it in there just for thoroughness.


I personally don't think the big stage boundaries are an issue, because if people were easier to gimp/flew at lower angles at higher percents, it'd actually be beneficial to have more breathing room off stage to allow the dance that is edge guarding to take place.

 

[BadGuy]

I actually have to agree with jiang, but the gravity is the biggest change that should occur. Slightly heavier gravity will increases the pace of the game, incorporate edge guarding, speeds up gameplay, make recovery less effortless and force di to stay alive, which should also also be tinkered with.

 

[Yeroc]

I've said it, TheCape has probably said it, and I know Veril has said it: gravity is not going to be changed. Period. It's too much to start the project completely over when it's so close to being balanced as is.

I think having powerful recoveries is a good thing. It softens the learning curve for any Brawl newcomers, while forcing higher level players to innovate, and could paradoxically end up producing a deeper edge game overall, as opposed to the comparatively passive on-the-stage dominated Melee game. *gasp*

 

[CountKaiser]

My main gripe with longevity is a combination of stage boundaries and the strength of DI in Brawl.

I would call myself, at best, a mid-level player, and I consistently live to absurd percentages with most characters. It's become so ridiculous, one of my friends thought that Kirby was made heavier because I survived for so long.

Smaller stage boundaries would, however, help to alleviate this problem.

If anything, could the ceilings be lower? I've noticed that DIing towards a corner makes it so that people can survive until high percents, and perhaps if it were to be lowered, it may help with the problem at hand.

Though it has already been stated that stage boundaries are being looked at, so what I've said has probably already been considered.

A gravity change would be nice, but would warrant rebalancing everything, which took us in the neighborhood of 2 years to find a balance too, the worst part of this being that it still isn't finished. Perhaps there is no deadline, but it isn't good to just continually add features to something, or to constantly change the foundations of something, otherwise it will never be finished. People are suffering from change fatigue, and for good reason. This has been a long-going project, and people are eager to see it end, myself included.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think having powerful recoveries is a good thing. It softens the learning curve for any Brawl newcomers

Screw learning curve, man.. Recovering isn't a multi button technique like wavedashing. You hit upB/sideB and you aim for the ledge. There's nothing to it. There isn't anything technical about it. If you get punished for being sloppy about it, you'll adapt. Most people understand that your character will either have a good one or a bad one. If you guys really cared about Brawl newcomers learning curve, why did you make lucario and diddy's upB kill them on impact on the edge? Those changes.. *gasp* increased the learning curve of those characters (Quite a bit, I may add, especially for your precious Brawl players).

And I thought we stopped caring what Brawl newcomers a year ago the moment this project was boastfully dubbed Brawl+? (I hope you guys realize what that name even implies..)

while forcing higher level players to innovate, and could paradoxically end up producing a deeper edge game overall, as opposed to the comparatively passive on-the-stage dominated Melee game. *gasp*

Theorycraft.

It's been a year, and a lot of what I've seen develop in Brawl+'s edge game is a sense of futility to even bother trying to keep your opponent off the edge. They can air dodge, and recover with their huge snap distance. And sometimes going out there to hit your enemy be it a projectile or even a strong move ends up HELPING them come back. The DI is too powerful, and recoveries are too powerful. If these two things are toned down a bit, even if it was just the grab range of some upBs, it would help the game out tremendously in overall pace.

A gravity change would be nice, but would warrant rebalancing everything, which took us in the neighborhood of 2 years to find a balance too, the worst part of this being that it still isn't finished.

You know, I agree that the gravity change would be a huge overhaul, and I officially declare that I think it would be a bad idea to throw it in there at this time. However, it doesn't mean that Brawl+2 should be without it...

Perhaps there is no deadline, but it isn't good to just continually add features to something, or to constantly change the foundations of something, otherwise it will never be finished. People are suffering from change fatigue, and for good reason. This has been a long-going project, and people are eager to see it end, myself included.

I really don't understand why people want to end this project. It doesn't make sense. We have a unique opportunity to change things in the game, keep things fresh over the years, especially when the patching process is effortless and quick. (Even more so than the games people pay actual money for!)

It's really a waste of potential to stop changing things in a game because of "change fatigue" (wtf? Are you guys Victorian damsels locked in the home perpetually on the verge of fainting to an overwhelming of the senses?) It's been a year, and we don't even have all the tools we need to balance this game and you guys want to call it quits. I don't get it. I agree with letting a build sit for a while and let the tiers develop, but I certainly don't agree with giving up on a project just because it's "good enough", which quite frankly seems to be the theme of this project as of late.

 

[GPDP]

Jiang, in many respects, I agree with you, but the battle for making Brawl+ faster and with a steeper learning curve for tech skill was lost long ago, around the time kupo quit the project, if not before. The project has been on a steady road toward what it is now for a long time, mostly due to us simply not having the necessary tools to do otherwise. For instance, we were very limited in regards to gravity changes due to us not having the ability to change them without making characters much more comboable, so character gravities were not overhauled to an extreme degree. And now that we do have the ability to manipulate all these variables to our liking, these gravity settings have been on the books for ages, which would mean balancing things all over again. Same thing with the ledge grab ranges. We just couldn't modify them until recently, and the project had to do without, so here we are.

In a way, it's a lost cause to ask for more. It doesn't mean Brawl+ isn't fun, of course, but it is a bit of a disappointment, since it ended up more conservative than I would've liked in several respects. But Project M promises to fulfill my expectations and beyond, so I am comfortable leaving Brawl+ to stay its current course. So it's alright. Brawl+ will have the easy learning curve that I can always pick up and play with ease, while Project M will deliver my fast-paced tech skill fix. I couldn't ask for more.