Brawl+ Official Codeset Gold Discussion

[Shell]

Jiang, while P:M won't have the instant leg-spreading factor that you mentioned you adored in B+ a year ago, if the project interests you then jump on board. Your sense of smash design is (usually) very sound, and you have a knack for smelling bull****.

Ego-stroking aside, talk to me about it some time this week.

For the rest of you, it's hard to understand the mindset of the most competitive smashers when we're all tinkerers here at heart. Many top pros enjoy winning money just as much (if not more, sometimes ) than playing the game itself. When they have to relearn things, they don't win as much, which means they'd rather play a stable game they can win at more easily. Them's just the facts.

The lesson I've learned is that you really need to keep things in a closed Beta environment for longer than you'd think, letting in only the people who understand how much you really have to change things before you settle on what works.

 

[JCaesar]

God knows I agree with you jiang, but unfortunately it's just a fact that Brawl+ won't be taken seriously at a competitive level until it's stable. We need to just let it be and only release necessary balance fixes in very infrequent patches.

 

[Alphatron]

The lesson I've learned is that you really need to keep things in a closed Beta environment for longer than you'd think, letting in only the people who understand how much you really have to change things before you settle on what works.

This is the truth. I didn't even join brawl+ that long ago (last year during the midsummer) and from reading through plenty of posts, I noticed a lot of people who dropped the game because of changes being implemented. Even when balanced brawl was created, I noticed several insane comments such as, "Don't do what brawl+ did and get everything right on the very first try!". That's impossible, but not everyone is going to be realistic or even very cooperative in what feedback they give. People can be silly like that sometimes.Even though the tools were limited back then, people weren't even willing to update when things actually got better, like when PSA came out and we were able to cut the char specific changes out of the gct.

My dream is that once things settle down, we'll be taken more seriously in the distant future and suggesting changes won't be so bad. And believe me I DO MEAN DISTANT. For now though, we risk losing far too much if we aren't conservative.

 

[shanus]

Brawl+ taught the community a lot on how to approach a release. It is unfortunate that they had to pave the way, but its large uptake still is a testament to its success. However, it is obvious that they must be conservative to maintain this userbase and let it grow.

 

[GPDP]

Brawl+ taught the community a lot on how to approach a release. It is unfortunate that they had to pave the way, but its large uptake still is a testament to its success. However, it is obvious that they must be conservative to maintain this userbase and let it grow.

Very true. Brawl+ is, in a way, a victim of its own status as a trailblazer. Because it was the first project of its kind (hell, the first Brawl project, period), its development followed a path which, like you said, paved a way for all projects to follow, but it also meant it absorbed all of the hardships of being the first to do what it did. Things that we can easily do now to make it even more exciting and deep are things we had no way of doing for the longest time, and as the project evolved with these limitations, even as they came apart, the end result has become a game that has people wishing it would settle down already and end all the crazy changes, even if they are for the better. This means we must hold out on adding extra speed and technical depth. It is definitely unfortunate, but that's the way the cards played out for Brawl+.

 

[Veril]

I realize that the backroom is indeed doing something to fix this: making stage boundaries smaller, but I don't really like this idea. I'm not sure how to word it. When I come up with why, I'll be sure to let you guys know.

I'd like to point out what I believe causes people to survive so long and then talk about what we can do about it (if anything):

1. Characters are still rather floaty.
2. Reimplementation of stale moves.
3. It's still too easy to recover.
4. DI is too powerful.
5. Powershielding on accident sometimes shifts defense to offense, prolonging fights.

1. I've already explained why we aren't changing character physics except in 3 special cases (Marth, Wolf, CF). This is not happening. Gravity changes are hugely disruptive.

2. That was taken out.

3 and 4. Vague and completely subjective.

5. As you've said, this is being dealt with.

Changing boundaries, esp ceilings, will keep people from being able to survive AND avoid off-stage combat by DIing straight up. The boundaries can be addressed without altering individual characters. It'll help. I've been working my a** off on this specific fix.

Besides, as people have said, skill means nothing to the WBR.

That's not true. Skill (and the competitive mindset), knowledge and contribution are all prerequisites to entrance to the B+broom. Players who are skilled without having a broad base on knowledge or real drive to contribute aren't very useful. Some of the best B+ players who were in the backroom contributed next to nothing.

if waiting for an application is what we need to do, then so be it

It is. This won't happen till after gold comes out.

I don't suppose you'd be willing to disclose a tentative date for applications...?

No.

Ultimately Veril is the person you should talk to about submitting ideas, suggestions, or feedback about various Brawl+ aspects. He'll take them under consideration, and then in turn when I announce another admissions period, we'll be able to take those contributions into consideration along with your application.

Truth. Even if I don't respond to your PM immediately, it shows me the quality of your potential contributions.

I've said it, TheCape has probably said it, and I know Veril has said it: gravity is not going to be changed. Period. It's too much to start the project completely over when it's so close to being balanced as is.

<3

If anything, could the ceilings be lower?

Yes.

Very true. Brawl+ is, in a way, a victim of its own status as a trailblazer.

B+ isn't a victim.

I've got a big lab-practical exam, so I've been extremely busy with school as of late, but despite this I have put a lot of time into the stage boundary issue. I'll be posting about this in my data thread later this week to show you all how the KO% will be affected.

 

[shanus]

B+ isn't a victim.

In a way, it is though. If you look, B+ started at when Brawl coding was it its infancy. Its userbase would be impacted with each additional code introduced for Brawl+, resulting in change fatigue. In being the "trailblazer," it in itself also left a bad taste in the mouths of many when it simply was growing due to new resources becoming available. Many of these individuals who left due to frustration would probably love Brawl+ in its current state. This was something we as developers should have picked up on sooner. However, a project such as this is a serious time committment, and due to the size of the parties involved, we often were more than happy to release change happy iterative cycles without truthfully accepting the consequences. This path of both success and failure is what taught the other projects a lot of what we know today.

Being first to market has its perks and its losses, and there is no denying that.

And I don't know why I bothered to type this response :-O, so carry on

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

3 and 4. Vague and completely subjective.

Brawl+ itself is the very essence of subjectivity. We took it upon ourselves to shape the game in what we believe is "fun". Every change and alteration we've made to Brawl is based on what we "believe" needs to be done. There is no right or wrong.

But, vague, yes, I should have been more specific.

What I mean is that at 130% when I fsmash Snake as Samus (And as many other characters), he really shouldn't be able to survive, but we all know, in our gut, that Snake, being resilient as a rock along with his great recovery and with air dodging means he probably will. In fact, not only will Snake survive, but he'll probably be able to return and deal a good amount of more damage before finally being KO'd off screen, prolonging the fight when he really should have just died.

Now this isn't because Snake himself is overpowered, this is because the core of Brawl+'s recovery and edge guarding system of powerful DI, the standard of recovery being very high (meaning we won't nerf his any time soon), and the death of gimping in Brawl+ leads to these late deaths.

DI alters the flight path of a move much too greatly causing people to survive much later than they should be, and I believe this really needs to be looked at. In most situations when I DI against someone's moves, I almost always go at a 70-80 degree angle. I'm pretty sure this is the same with other players.

Gimping is not nearly as prominent in this game because even without DI, At 120%, if you get hit with a turnip or an aerial it usually helps you recover because it pops you upwards.

And lastly recoveries. All recoveries in Brawl+ are really strong and many have ridiculous electromagnetic snap distances. If anything is done to these recoveries, I think a simple reduction of snap distances would help greatly. Falcon comes into mind.

 

[Wind Owl]

Pardon my interjection, Jiang, but it looks like you're debating something that in the minds of the project leaders has already been set in stone. You should just join the Project M team and forget about trying to improve Brawl+

 

[Veril]

I agree with Jiang that survivability is a problem. We have different views on how that is best dealt with. I have the advantage of having spent a lot of time looking at actual KO% variation with the different permutations of boundary changes.

Just cause I disagree with Jiang doesn't mean he should stop putting his opinion out there. I love Jiang... when he isn't trolling. The fixes he proposes are, in this situation, not feasible. Its a lot easier to say "change character gravity" than it is to do. Think about how much time its taken to fix up-tilts, the enormous amount of work it has been isolating and removing CGs, etc. Changing character gravity would set us back several months at least and have so many unpredictable effects on MUs.

 

[Bandit]

That's not true. Skill (and the competitive mindset), knowledge and contribution are all prerequisites to entrance to the B+broom. Players who are skilled without having a broad base on knowledge or real drive to contribute aren't very useful. Some of the best B+ players who were in the backroom contributed next to nothing.

My bad. Really, I said it in an extreme. It was suppose to mean your knowledge and contributions are more important than individual skill.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Just cause I disagree with Jiang doesn't mean he should stop putting his opinion out there. I love Jiang... when he isn't trolling. The fixes he proposes are, in this situation, not feasible. Its a lot easier to say "change character gravity" than it is to do. Think about how much time its taken to fix up-tilts, the enormous amount of work it has been isolating and removing CGs, etc. Changing character gravity would set us back several months at least and have so many unpredictable effects on MUs.

I guess you're not reading my posts then? I stated in my first or second post that I agree that gravity isn't worth the trouble changing. What I suggested changing is the strength of DI, the snap distances of recoveries, and perhaps some angle changes on some moves which are considered gimps. These changes, if executed well, would have very little impact on how the game is played now, and just change the percents people die at.

 

[hi5ive]

A bit off topic:

My main account just got my 6th and 7th infraction on this post: http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=140365.

It will be banned till March 5th, so I'll be helping with this account for the time being.

Anyways, speed increase? Probably too late to change. Survivability? It's being dealt with by lessening stage boundaries.

 

[Veril]

I guess you're not reading my posts then? I stated in my first or second post that I agree that gravity isn't worth the trouble changing. What I suggested changing is the strength of DI, the snap distances of recoveries, and perhaps some angle changes on some moves which are considered gimps. These changes, if executed well, would have very little impact on how the game is played now, and just change the percents people die at.

I singled out the gravity change because several other people wrote supporting the idea. There is no way in h*** I'm changing DI. Autosnap distance changes would just force people to relearn an aspect of their character for what I feel is insufficient reason. Angle changes on gimp moves, again, that would have to be a lot more specific. Gimping really isn't weak in B+. Maybe I feel this way from playing characters who all have strong gimping games (Jiggs, Lucas, Ganon, MK), but I really don't see it.


Don't expect me to immediately respond to every idea from every post. It isn't possible. I will respond to you at length via PM when I'm less swamped with work. Be patient plz

My bad. Really, I said it in an extreme. It was suppose to mean your knowledge and contributions are more important than individual skill.

Its cool. I wasn't mad ;p But everyone in the B+ broom is very skilled at the game and/or a freakish repository of data.

And I don't know why I bothered to type this response :-O, so carry on

It was a fairly accurate assessment of the situation. "Change fatigue" is a problem that B+ is now finally able to overcome. I would hardly call as successful a venture as B+ has been a "victim" of anything, esp considering the ambitious nature of this endeavor.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

k i give up

 

[Rikana]

Charizard needs some loving. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235302

 

[wowoduend]

Now can we all get together :3

Now back on topic.....

 

[GPDP]

Magus said in the P:M thread that the reason Falcon gets chaingrabbed so badly in this game is because, unlike in Melee, throws take weight into consideration, and since Falcon is both a relative heavyweight AND a fastfaller, throws don't launch him very far, making him exceptionally susceptible to chaingrabs.

From the looks of things, shanus wants to correct this for P:M. Would you consider doing this as well, so that Falcon doesn't have to be made floatier? That is, if they manage to make it so throws don't take weight into account, would you implement this in Brawl+?

 

[Alphatron]

I agree with Jiang on survivability for the most part. As Bowser, fairing Peach offstage on Final Destination should not result in her living when she's at 120%+. Nor should it result in the off stage game ending for both of us because she's now really high above the stage and can just fall back to it without having to recover.

Altering DI is out of the question because it would also change how effective DI is now to escape from combo moves. And believe me, without DI, the combo moves in this game are utterly ridiculous. (Peach dash attack, Peach dthrow, Bowser uthrow, Peach dair, Ness fair, etc) The way things are now, DI keeps this from happening.

Changing snap distances isn't something I'm inclined to disagree with as easily...BUT with the removal of autosnap, recoveries have already taken a nerf. I don't care for the learning curve this would reintroduce but I don't see any reason to change this particular aspect. Why? The ledge invincibilty fix should help remove the stalling that magnetic ledges support.


After I look into character hitboxes on UpBs, I'm gonna come back to see if I can support Jiang on altering the hitboxes for a few of them. Becauase I'm pretty sure him and I aren't the only ones seeing the ridiculous hitboxes on a few character's recoveries...and just how strong those hitboxes are.

 

[Veril]

From the looks of things, shanus wants to correct this for P:M. Would you consider doing this as well, so that Falcon doesn't have to be made floatier? That is, if they manage to make it so throws don't take weight into account, would you implement this in Brawl+?

No. We're not changing every throw to accommodate a single character.

After I look into character hitboxes on UpBs, I'm gonna come back to see if I can support Jiang on altering the hitboxes for a few of them. Because I'm pretty sure him and I aren't the only ones seeing the ridiculous hitboxes on a few character's recoveries...and just how strong those hitboxes are.

Ganon's up-b doesn't KO till over 200%. If it intercepts a ledgehog the person can tech the hit, and if they die its their fault for having a sloppy edgehog anyway.

There, one down.

I assume the recovery this is really about is Wolf's side-b.

 

[CountKaiser]

A few characters do have weird hitboxes, such as Mario's UpB, and Ganon's UpB. The hitboxes are more annoying than anything, really.

Wolf Side B is ridank, but I'm not sure what to say about it. I've died to it several times, and I still find it irksome, but I can't quite say if it's broken.

Though I would like to know the reasoning behind the hitbox change.

 

[kackamee]

EDIT: nvm, realized this was the wrong thread.

 

[Bandit]

A few characters do have weird hitboxes, such as Mario's UpB, and Ganon's UpB. The hitboxes are more annoying than anything, really.

Wolf Side B is ridank, but I'm not sure what to say about it. I've died to it several times, and I still find it irksome, but I can't quite say if it's broken.

Though I would like to know the reasoning behind the hitbox change.

That change was made, if I am correct, before 5.0 when they thought Wolf sucked.

 

[Veril]

Another problem with Wolf's side-b is that its hitbox is ginormous. Its like a DDD sized sphere, which makes no sense at all. The kb change has been around so long that its kinda hard to change and I know wolf players will flip over that but but but... we can make the hitbox size reasonable given the animation. This is a type of change we've made in the past, it makes sense and it looks better. It also makes the move much more possible to beat out without massively disjointed attacks.

I still can't believe ginormous is a word.

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

This is something I posted before but I don't think anyone answered.

"I have some questions about the stages. What stages are going to have there boundaries adjusted? Are all the stages that possibly need adjustments going to be looked at and fixed, or will it only be neutral stages? Also are those changes going to be rather noticeable or will they be more subtle?"

Anyway I find this funny, back then people were complaining that some kill moves and kill setups were too good. I believe a percentage I heard a lot was 120%, some people would say that so and so shouldn't kill me at 120% with this move(unless it's a heavy strong character obviously). So some characters kill moves were changed, angles seem to have been changed, usually it seems by raising them higher so you could DI at more survivable angles, and power on some moves was significantly reduced. Examples of which are Kirby's and Luigi's fsmash. On top of that the setups for some of these kill moves are much harder or were removed entirely, which is fine with me but it also contributes to longer matches. So now people complain that they live too long and are saying that certain moves should kill someone at 120%...ironic huh? I'm not directing this towards anyone in particular but from what I've read 120% is the magic number.

Honestly I think that the reason matches can last long is not really because of recoveries, or the DI, but the kill moves themselves. I mean yeah some stages are probably too big, but from what I've seen that's not the main problem. Also I don't think gimping is weak in Brawl+ either. Obviously instant death auto combos aren't any good, but when characters don't have a reliable kill move, kill setup, or even a halfway reliable kill setup, along with other reasons but to a less degree, your going to sometimes have long matches.

These are just some general observations I have made recently. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Veril]

120% is a mystery number that has no bearing on what I'm actually doing.

The changes won't be drastic. Right now I'm only looking at the starter stages, as they are played on the majority of the time. Those are, fyi: Warioware, FD, BF, Smashville, and PSII. PSII and Warioware will be unchanged from 6.0. PSII is the largest of the stages and I think its important to have a larger neutral. Battlefield, Final Destination and Smashville will all see KO% off the top lower to about 85-95% of the moves initial KO point. So a move that KOed at 150 off the top will KO at ~135. The sides are being altered to a lesser degree, and are still a WIP.

Luigi is not a character with trouble KOing. He does not need, and will not receive any direct buff to his KO power.

 

[Plum]

When you think about it, the sides don't need to be altered as much as ceilings, so that's nice that Veril isn't bringing them in as much.

The optimal survival DI is to the top corner, so if the ceiling is lowered then its already changing how long you can live before dying of the sides. Just no more living to like 180%... Veril I love you for what you're doing <3

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait, what about Yoshi's Island, isn't that a starter too?

And wasn't it agreed upon that WW is a counterpick?

 

[JCaesar]

Nothing's been agreed upon when it comes to the tournament stagelist.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

I have been playing B+ for a while now and while in 6.0 the game feels really balanced I am just wondering if there is any plans to make diddy kongs return more viable. Due to the collision when he hits the ledge and explodes and he falls to his death. I know you can over shoot it or rather are supposed to but its a little rediculus.

Also is there going to be any plans to make Lucario's UPB while I do admit hes a beast in 6.0 be able to maybe not sweetspot like it did in 5.0 but rather be able to stick to walls when coming out of it. its just a suggestion.

I really do think diddy kong needs a better reliable return though even though is a good character the after collision really puts him at a disadvantage also I really don't see many videos of diddy kong being played in B+.

 

[Veril]

Wait, what about Yoshi's Island, isn't that a starter too?

And wasn't it agreed upon that WW is a counterpick?

WW is a much better starter than YI. There are two reasons for this. First, it works a whole lot better with my stage adjustments cause there will be a good distribution of stage sizes across the starters. WW being the small starter, BF/FD/SV being the mid-size starters and PSII being the somewhat larger one.

The second reasoning is that ledgecanceling on Yoshi's island is a lot more significant of a factor due to the naturally curved sides. I don't know how many people have truly played around with that on this stage, but it really isn't good starter material compared to WW.

And yes, I will be decreasing the size of YI. Its got comically large boundaries for being such a small stage.

I am just wondering if there is any plans to make diddy kongs return more viable.

Yes. Its proving to be an extremely tricky fix and I may have to fall back on an alternate method I've been considering as opposed to altering the point at which he enters special fall.

Also is there going to be any plans to make Lucario's UPB while I do admit hes a beast in 6.0 be able to maybe not sweetspot like it did in 5.0 but rather be able to stick to walls when coming out of it. its just a suggestion.

No. No no no. The chance of anything about Lucario getting improved from 6.0 is non-existent.

Veril I love you for what you're doing <3

 

[∫unk]

Alright, I entered a B+ tournament. I'm an accomplished Brawl player (ranked in CA) and haven't played B+ in over a year. My first tournament match was pretty much my first time playing. I got 7th/20 and lost to 2nd and 4th, so I think my observation counts for something. Don't take this personally.

I played Snake almost the entire time.. and just played regular brawl snake. The only different things i could tell was that f-tilt is even better than regular brawl. The range on his tilts seems smaller but that doesn't really matter most people in b+ don't bother to space.

Throws in general have a little too much hitstun I think.

Some B+ regular lost game 1 and thought it would be smart to CP Jungle Japes. I knew MK was worse but I went to him anyway. If he didn't approach like an idiot he easily would have been timed out. I can even use tornado well cause I can slide off into the water (avoid the claptrap) and recover on the left side. Basically I beat him with "gay" Brawl tactics the entire set.

Overall B+ players "average" skill level seems worse than regular brawl. They either try to attack too much or constantly use the changes B+ gives to their character. I would just grenade camp and matches would be 6+ minutes. Why not do something else? Because I was winning.

To me it just seems stupid that I can just come in and **** people playing regular Brawl snake, and often times getting hit with just stuff I don't understand yet.

This is the problems I personally have with b+:
1) It's often slower than brawl in terms of match length. Mostly has to do with 4 stocks and you can DI/tech out of a lot of things I think.
2) The game changes feels like just with a few extra stages, a few new combo's, some characters are better or worse. Overall you can win just using Brawl stuff (see: Ally).
3) The competition level is weaker (in terms of primarily B+ players). Step it up! Don't let Brawl players just come in and win.

Obviously my view is biased and based off of one tournament and a bunch of friendlies, but to me Brawl is way more fun than B+. It's not a completely different game and I'm extremely fluent with the regular Brawl so why play B+? Unless my favorite character is actually good in B+ I don't see the point. The majority of players don't lose because of their character anyway.

By the way this is meant to be constructive criticism, I don't really have anything against B+. I just don't feel like you guys are accomplishing what you set out to do.

I'm not going to play or enter again lol (this tournament was far away so it's not like I have the opportunity to enter B+ monthly or biweekly, if I did I think I could win so I would practice). Good luck B+ people.

 

[Veril]

The CA B+ scene is extremely weak from what I hear. Come down to NY, MD/VA, or Montreal and you'll have a very different level of competition to deal with. Japes is not usually a legal stage in B+, or vBrawl iirc. Its huge and tbh Jigglypuff/MK/Falco shouldn't ever lose on that stage unless there is a large skill difference.

Grenade camping is still very effective, especially when people rush in or fail to space properly.

I agree with the match length being too long and am adjusting stage size to deal with this issue.

3) The competition level is weaker (in terms of primarily B+ players). Step it up! Don't let Brawl players just come in and win.

This. If B+ kids spent less time trying to push for changes and more time playing competitively (and played a larger set of players) that wouldn't be the case. They also need to learn to experiment more, especially with combos and escaping them.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

∫unk there are many reasons for why the game doesn't feel much different from regular Brawl.

One of the biggest reasons is because Brawl+ is a new game and people are still adapting to punishing mistakes and still getting a feel for the game. It may have been in development the past year, but it's basically a whole new game. Under the old management, it was basically a new game ever patch. Lots of stuff has changed, and the game does feel like vbrawl (with less landing lag) if it's played between vbrawl players.

However, that doesn't mean it's the solely the players that are to blame, i've already pointed out why the matches take too long a few posts back. The game has the hitstun, the combos, and other stuff but it lacks the edge game that goes along with the kind of gameplay that Brawl+ is trying to imitate. Without that aspect being emphasized like it did in it's spiritual predecessors (64, Melee), it leads players to prolonging the matches.

But I really think in the end it comes to the players. Once people get used to the game and edge guarding gets more dominant, things will eventually (and hopefully) pick up.

So yes, I think vbrawlers should be dominating the Brawl scene because Melee people (who are probably still playing melee, especially in Cali) and newcomers are probably still getting acclimated. The Brawl players will have the edge because they've had more time to get used to the characters and the spacing of moves and such.

 

[Bandit]

Also, brawl tactics were successful for a reason.

 

[ZeonStar]

I see Brawl+ as being what should replace vBrawl, really. We dont want to make the game so drastically different that it turns off people.

Like for example, I met a really good sonic player I used to play vbrawl with alot at a local tournament, and he loved brawl+, since his skills transferred over, and nothing was too different that it would turn him off to the project. The only reason he said he wouldnt stick with it though, and I sympathize with, is because everyone plays vbrawl.

Brawl+ is highly niche, and it depresses me, but seeing more tournaments pop up around me is making me happy.

Changing stuff like gravity and such would piss new people off, I think Project M is what people are looking for, we will have to see how that does. There are some things that probably need to be looked at and addressed as time goes by though.

My dream is to have Brawl+ and Melee tournaments, I doubt thatd happen though. Each for his own taste, and both being highly competitive.

 

[BEES]

I have noticed that the better someone is at Brawl, the better they tend to be in Brawl+

Unless you're good enough at reading your opponent to land the combos, someone with good spacing and priority whoring will generally do better. Especially since Brawl players have more patience, and Melee players get more frustrated with a slow fight.

Some things about Brawl+ are still too close to Brawl. It's hard to be precise with followups when friction is so low. Also, characters with killing throws are a pain in the ***. That perfect shield code can't come fast enough.

 

[Veril]

I have noticed that the better someone is at Brawl, the better they tend to be in Brawl+

O.o

My mind is blown.

Seriously though, vBrawl players have excellent defensive games. Spacing for most effective defense limits followup combos, so its a trade off. Eventually serious B+ players will catch up to their vBrawl counterparts once they've really mastered the combos and learned to be a little more patient with the approaches. Also, I see that SHFFl approaches are a lot cleaner with melee players than B+ players.

So there are things that B+ kids can learn to emulate from both games. You've got much safer options on shield if you learn how to optimally SHFFl, and you can't always rush in with the best combo starter without taking % and your opponents defensive options into consideration. Combo DI is also a lot different from both vBrawl and melee. There's a definite science to playing B+, distinct and unique from both vBrawl and Melee, and nobody has mastered every aspect of it yet. Personally, I'm so far behind on my defensive play (as Allied certainly knows), but I know tricks and combos extremely well, so I can capitalize off my hits better than most.

Melee players are way more fun to watch than vBrawl players lol

 

[matt4300]

120% is a mystery number that has no bearing on what I'm actually doing.

The changes won't be drastic. Right now I'm only looking at the starter stages, as they are played on the majority of the time. Those are, fyi: Warioware, FD, BF, Smashville, and PSII. PSII and Warioware will be unchanged from 6.0. PSII is the largest of the stages and I think its important to have a larger neutral. Battlefield, Final Destination and Smashville will all see KO% off the top lower to about 85-95% of the moves initial KO point. So a move that KOed at 150 off the top will KO at ~135. The sides are being altered to a lesser degree, and are still a WIP.

Luigi is not a character with trouble KOing. He does not need, and will not receive any direct buff to his KO power.

Man, This is gonna be sweet... Links sweetspot dair would be killing at 55 or so, and luigis utilt will kill at like 115. I don't even wanna think of luigis nair! ToT

Though since this is mostly a ceiling change won't this really buff characters with an affinity for ceiling kos like yoshi and link? and barely help chars like marth?

 

[ZeonStar]

Man, This is gonna be sweet... Links sweetspot dair would be killing at 55 or so, and luigis utilt will kill at like 115. I don't even wanna think of luigis nair! ToT

Though since this is mostly a ceiling change won't this really buff characters with an affinity for ceiling kos like yoshi and link? and barely help chars like marth?

If this is true, I will love ganon's dair even more.