Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[CloneHat]

Toon Link needs to be nerf. His up-smash is broken, and he has no punishable moves.

Samus needs a buff in her neutral air, back air, down-smash, and dash attack.

Ganondorf, needs nerfs, his side-b seems like easy hit with anyone, tap-A is WAY too good.

#1: Learn to hit people.

#2: Samus's weakness is killing, but she makes up for it with camping and damage building skills.

#3: Side B is REALLY slow, and does 8-9%. His jab can't combo, and is far slower than most jabs.

 

[CountKaiser]

Samus probably could use buffs.

Ganon, however, is fine as is and doesn't need nerfs.

Toon Link also seems fine to me. His usmash is nowhere near broken, and I can deal with him just fine.

 

[MK26]

His jab can't combo, and is far slower than most jabs.

I beg to differ on both counts lol
1) I've combo'd an aerial down-b into a jab. Also, roll --> jab is a true combo. Tru Fax.
2) They've sped it up so it comes out on frame 2 and ends on (iirc) 22

 

[CountKaiser]

Frame 2!? WTF

That's ridiculous, not to mention dumb. Frame 4 sounds better, it doesn't need to come out that fast.

 

[zxeon]

Leave the jab alone. I like it where it is.

 

[Shell]

I'm not going to post this again.

Ganon Jab: hits 3-5, ends 22

Most other jabs: Hit frames 2 or 3, possibly one. It is average-to-slow.

Roll to jab is not a "true combo." I'm not sure what you're trying to say, as roll isn't an attack. I assume you're trying to comment on them linking together too wel. His data is:

4-19 (invuln) / 31 (end) Ganondorf

So he has 14 frames of vulnerability between roll and jab. This is absolutely average, and not hard to take advantage of.

And CloneHat meant that the jab doesn't combo into things -- which is the utility of many jabs. I'd take Snake or Ike's jab over Ganon's most days.

 

[MK26]

errrr its got 2 frames of startup, 2 of hitbox, and 18 (again, iirc) of endlag.

Also, prolimar is pro. Too pro. Nerf him nao

EDIT: shell is ninja. Too ninja. Nerf him nao

Roll to jab is as much a true combo as vROB's spotdodge --> dsmash is.

I am of the opinion that the jab needs at least 2 more frames of startup added to it. That is all (well, that and wizkick's endlag, but thats a different story). Feel free to disagree.

 

[Demacrez]

Whoa! What's with the nerf-fest? I'm reading all these nerf stuff on slow and bad killing characters making them seem... less likely to be any more.

 

[CountKaiser]

I'm not going to post this again.

Ganon Jab: hits 3-5, ends 22

8 / 4.5 = 1.7, and I'm assuming a math.ceiling function is used in this equation somewhere, so that's 2 frames.

The changelist says 350%, which translates to 4.5 times. Perhaps you meant 250%?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

....................................

 

[Deleted member]

Remove Peach's bomber buff? Why?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

...................................

 

[leafgreen386]

Airdodge/sidestep tweaks are still in the works.

Water would either require a special code or we would need to know more missing commands from PSA to do it. I can't think of any way to make that work with the current tools PSA provides. The problem is we're trying to completely change the way water collisions work, when the data for it isn't necessarily all contained in the character pacs. There's probably a way to write an override for it in either the character's aerial actions or in just the swimming actions; I'm just not really sure how you'd do it.

I hadn't heard of anyone suggesting peach's sideB change being removed until just now, so I'm not gonna say anything either way.

 

[Deleted member]

Ya, well, some people are stupid.

 

[Shadic]

Idk, some people think it's uneeded. I don't really give a **** anymore, they are all ****ing mean pieces of ***** **** anyways. I'm tired of them not listening to me and only thinking of themselves like the selfish *****es they are. So **** them all. **** THEM

Although, camoo, you really don't need to say "get some anger medication" and stuff like that.

Inconsistencies aside, I'm just about to post some test changes I made to Link here, if anybody cares.

 

[camelot]

Hmm, not sure if this info would help much, but as far as water mechanics go, the Alloys and Giga Bowser cannot swim. They just fall through like it's not there. I'm wondering if it's related to an attribute (like, an attribute that says if they can swim or not).

At the very least, couldn't it be made so that everyone acted in this way? And would it be better than the current water? (This would obviously be taking the easy way out, though)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

........................

 

[Shadic]

And acting like a loon with anger management issues is supposed to help? I'm pretty sure everybody just ignores all your random rant posts, and it does more harm than good.

Now everybody go check out the Link changes, we've been discussing them in-topic for a while now.

 

[weinzey]

Hmm, not sure if this info would help much, but as far as water mechanics go, the Alloys and Giga Bowser cannot swim. They just fall through like it's not there. I'm wondering if it's related to an attribute (like, an attribute that says if they can swim or not).

wario acts the same way on his bike btw

 

[leafgreen386]

Hmm, not sure if this info would help much, but as far as water mechanics go, the Alloys and Giga Bowser cannot swim. They just fall through like it's not there. I'm wondering if it's related to an attribute (like, an attribute that says if they can swim or not).

At the very least, couldn't it be made so that everyone acted in this way? And would it be better than the current water? (This would obviously be taking the easy way out, though)

I just checked out gigabowser's pac. The swimming IDs all have an offset of 0x0 and there is no data in any of them. This surprised me, actually. I figured they just wouldn't exist. Theoretically, stripping the data from the "other" section of a normal character and adding a goto function in the "main" for each ID should make it treat the water like it doesn't exist, although for some reason when I tried that, it didn't have any noticeable effect.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well we don't want to remove the water though. I mean what would be the point of it then?


I liked kupo's idea that he posted like a bajillion pages ago.

 

[leafgreen386]

well we don't want to remove the water though. I mean what would be the point of it then?


I liked kupo's idea that he posted like a bajillion pages ago.

A long journey begins with one small step.

I never said the purpose was to remove the effect of the water entirely, but if I can't even find a way to do that, then how am I supposed to code it to work like kupo was saying? Removing the swimming animations and making a player fall through it normally is the first step to getting that working. Once that is possible, only then is it worth looking into how to make the gravity effects work.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

True. But the first step of it shouldn't be included into a build, correct?

and I never said that you were implying that. I was just going on what camelot said about making it so like the water didn't exist.

 

[kupo15]

Hmm, not sure if this info would help much, but as far as water mechanics go, the Alloys and Giga Bowser cannot swim. They just fall through like it's not there. I'm wondering if it's related to an attribute (like, an attribute that says if they can swim or not).

At the very least, couldn't it be made so that everyone acted in this way? And would it be better than the current water? (This would obviously be taking the easy way out, though)

It wouldn't be the easy way out, only if you keep it that way. I think that it would improve the gameplay until you figure out how to add the gravity changes

I just checked out gigabowser's pac. The swimming IDs all have an offset of 0x0 and there is no data in any of them. This surprised me, actually. I figured they just wouldn't exist. Theoretically, stripping the data from the "other" section of a normal character and adding a goto function in the "main" for each ID should make it treat the water like it doesn't exist, although for some reason when I tried that, it didn't have any noticeable effect.

You should try it yourself in case I royally screwed up. I wouldn't trust my testing. Remember when I recorded your vid it desynced? I'm pretty sure I was using the gct that I thought worked but not so I doubt the pacs were even loaded

 

[Shell]

8 / 4.5 = 1.7, and I'm assuming a math.ceiling function is used in this equation somewhere, so that's 2 frames.

The changelist says 350%, which translates to 4.5 times. Perhaps you meant 250%?

When a framespeed mod is applied, it will play the first frame that the modifier is applied on, and then the following frames will advance at the rate specified.

Thus, the first frame will be 1, then 4.5-rounded-to-5 (3.5 frames later) and then 8 (3.5 frames after that).

I've checked the stats on the move many times in Frame advance. Check it out yourself, knowledge is power.

Also, ROB's spot dodge to d-smash has 9 frames of invulnerability compared to the 14 of ganon's roll to jab. Furthermore, one is completely telegraphed. I wouldn't try to compare them. Regardless, all spot dodges, rolls, and ADs will have their invulnerability frames trimmed a little in the future.

 

[Magus420]

Thus, the first frame will be 1, then 4.5-rounded-to-5 (3.5 frames later) and then 8 (3.5 frames after that).

It doesn't round. Frame 4.5 is frame 4.500 in the animation and is an interpolation between 4.000 and 5.000. If anything it's closer to frame 4 as events timed on frame 5 will not have taken place yet at 4.500 in the animation. 4.999, for example, will look almost identical to 5.000, but will still use the events of 4.000. This is one of the reasons I went and fixed up a lot of the frame speed changes recently since interpolated animations vs event timings (hitboxes) weren't properly being taken into account.

 

[camelot]

Regardless, all spot dodges, rolls, and ADs will have their invulnerability frames trimmed a little in the future.

Rolls? I thought they were fine, except for MK's forward roll which is stupid fast (only 23 total frames).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Lucario's rolls are pretty beast...


although I would like to see an overall more balanced invincibility on spotdodges (link vs. Jigglypuff)

and airdodges (Mk vs. Peach).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lucario's rolls are pretty beast...

THANK YOU

Lucario's rolls are absolutely ******** hard to punish.

 

[Dantarion]

I think its a combination of the animation being confusing to look at, and the invuln frames.

 

[MK26]

Also, ROB's spot dodge to d-smash has 9 frames of invulnerability compared to the 14 of ganon's roll to jab. Furthermore, one is completely telegraphed. I wouldn't try to compare them. Regardless, all spot dodges, rolls, and ADs will have their invulnerability frames trimmed a little in the future.

OH MY GOD DUDE cant you take a joke without applying logic to it?

and really, spot and rolldodges dont need to be trimmed...you just need to add 5 frames of iasa after the regular end of the animation in which you can perform any action but a shield.

In other news, thanks for explaining how the fsm works. Magus is awesome, as always.

 

[Revven]

I just learned today that with the most recent Ness build that he's ****ing broken. The ONLY character gayer then Ness is Wario, which is getting some nice nerfs in the next build which will be released soon. I am serious about Ness being broken too, you can't get out of Fair AT ALL and it combos into itself, Dthrow is ******** and PK Fire is amazingly broken (but all these things are getting fixed anyhow). The point is, Ness mains suck chunks at balancing. :x

DK would NOT have had a chance against Cape's Ness, he would've gotten ***** by Fair and/or his new PK Fire infinite. Despite that, he won't be broken in the next build we release.

Just FYI, the Ness .PAC with all this broken **** is in the Ness thread (shanus posted it). If you think Ganon's jab is bad, you don't know what bad REALLY is.

 

[thesage]

I just learned today that with the most recent Ness build that he's ****ing broken. The ONLY character gayer then Ness is Wario, which is getting some nice nerfs in the next build which will be released soon. I am serious about Ness being broken too, you can't get out of Fair AT ALL and it combos into itself, Dthrow is ******** and PK Fire is amazingly broken (but all these things are getting fixed anyhow). The point is, Ness mains suck chunks at balancing. :x

DK would NOT have had a chance against Cape's Ness, he would've gotten ***** by Fair and/or his new PK Fire infinite. Despite that, he won't be broken in the next build we release.

Just FYI, the Ness .PAC with all this broken **** is in the Ness thread (shanus posted it). If you think Ganon's jab is bad, you don't know what bad REALLY is.

Fair was changed (in Shanus' build) so that it sets up for combos instead of being wtfrape.

I knew fair was wtfrape since it came out but nobody listens to me lol. It doesn't combo Falco or Zelda though for some reason. I think fair was like this before any buffs happened to it but I only really played vs. a Falco before so I never noticed.

Lrn2dipk fire and d-throw though. That's all I can say about that. Then again I haven't played vs. Dk in brawl+ so it may wtfrape him. I just know vs. most people they can di out of pk fire and not get cg'd by d-throw if they di right. =/

Djc being added in so the game has more tech skill. I'm trying to get some nerfs in compensation for it.

 

[Revven]

Fair was changed (in Shanus' build) so that it sets up for combos instead of being wtfrape.

I knew fair was wtfrape since it came out but nobody listens to me lol. It doesn't combo Falco or Zelda though for some reason. I think fair was like this before any buffs happened to it but I only really played vs. a Falco before so I never noticed.

Lrn2dipk fire and d-throw though. That's all I can say about that. Then again I haven't played vs. Dk in brawl+ so it may wtfrape him. I just know vs. most people they can di out of pk fire and not get cg'd by d-throw if they di right. =/

Djc being added in so the game has more tech skill. I'm trying to get some nerfs in compensation for it.

We were using the build from the 4th, the Dthrow for some reason even though DI'd down and away could still follow-up and Cape could regrab me even when I was Wario. PK Fire was broken in the Sep. 4th Ness build (from yesterday). I held shield as DDD during it and couldn't PS it at all because it lifted me above the ground.

 

[thesage]

We were using the build from the 4th, the Dthrow for some reason even though DI'd down and away could still follow-up and Cape could regrab me even when I was Wario. PK Fire was broken in the Sep. 4th Ness build (from yesterday). I held shield as DDD during it and couldn't PS it at all because it lifted me above the ground.

I've never been able to d-throw cg vs. Charizard. I do know that I was able to do d-throw -> pkt2 before any changes to it were done though.

For pk fire try di'ing down to stay on the ground and ps'ing. I've seen a Marth player di out after he took 7 damage from it. My friend got out of it, in his first match playing brawl+, as Charizard by ps'ing/rolling away after it dealt like 10 damage or something (I don't keep up with damage percentages that much mid-match, I just know he was able to get out of it the same time as the Marth player did...). The Charizard thing may work because he's resistant to fire though. =/

Please take any more Ness discussion to his thread. I really don't want JCeaser making fun of me anymore =(

Don't yell at me for using the build from the 4th in tournament. Djc + other buffs = not balanced lmao.

 

[kr3wman]

falcon can just di up to get out of multiple pk fires and away from the dthrow as far as I remember.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I knew fair was wtfrape since it came out but nobody listens to me lol. It doesn't combo Falco or Zelda though for some reason. I think fair was like this before any buffs happened to it but I only really played vs. a Falco before so I never noticed.

In your defense, that Falco was me and I don't get comboed anyway .

Please take any more Ness discussion to his thread. I really don't want JCeaser making fun of me anymore =(

You act as if whether or not I make fun of your doesn't matter one bit

 

[Revven]

falcon can just di up to get out of multiple pk fires and away from the dthrow as far as I remember.

PK Fire was special in the build we had as someone thought it was a cool idea to change the PK Fire to a special offensive collision making it work a lot like MK's tornado thus, being unSDIable and why Cape could infinite DDD.

Dthrow, I don't know wtf was up with it, if the angle has been changed on it it needs to be relooked at because Ness was able to Fair me after it and then continue to Fair me because of how wtfrape it was. I was able to escape it a few times because I was Wario but, DDD...? Not at all. I DI'd the same way and he would just get Fair'd or regrabbed. I mean the fatty difference between Charizard and DDD is kind of big, DDD for one is way wider and heavier than Zard.

 

[thesage]

In your defense, that Falco was me and I don't get comboed anyway .

I tested it in training mode/frame by frame mode. No boost to your ego for you mister. Also I was able to lolcombo your charizard and Sonic (sonic was before any buffs to fair were made) fine.

You act as if whether or not I make fun of your doesn't matter one bit

You aren't in the WBR XP

 

[GuruKid]

Moral of the story:

Test builds don't belong in tournaments.

For pk fire try di'ing down to stay on the ground and ps'ing. I've seen a Marth player di out after he took 7 damage from it. My friend got out of it, in his first match playing brawl+, as Charizard by ps'ing/rolling away after it dealt like 10 damage or something (I don't keep up with damage percentages that much mid-match, I just know he was able to get out of it the same time as the Marth player did...). The Charizard thing may work because he's resistant to fire though. =/

Fire has no special effect on Charizard. He's just a fatty who's not that fat.