Revven
FrankerZ
My feeling on it is that, it should be beaten out by certain moves period. The SA really stops a lot of people from being able to hit Wario before the hitbox comes out. And it's not like the SA is COMPLETELY gone, he still has a form of it, it just isn't as strong. It's not completely removed, he still has an armor on the move. Lowering its KB hurts it a bit, taking away the SA and putting on HA so it can be beaten by 11% or above moves I think seems more fair. Of course the SA > HA and people probably would rather a KB nerf than just giving him HA.first i have to say, sa on fsmash is very unique to wario and thus should be left alone imo (but that's more of a personal opinion than anything else).
second, fsmash is very punushable if u predict it or dodge it. it has tons of lag after it has hit. and if ryoko (no offense) can call zelda's usmash balanced (clearly an anti-air move) because it isn't safe on shields, then wario's fsmash (which is his only good smash btw - except for dacus, but that's relatively situational compared to other usmashes) definetely not op.
due to its winddown lag it cant be spammed mindlessly if ur opponent knows the matchup. slikvik even does it in the wrong direction on purpose if he thinks hey can react in time.
and third, removing the sa wont reduce fsmash usage. jab>fsmash will still work since fsmash has high priority and wont clank vs aerials. plus, sa is just one frame before it hits (sa on 8-11, hits on 9) so there wont be much difference.
the only thing that changes by removing sa, is that he cant plow through recovery that easy (easy is meant relativley, since 1 frame difference is very little and most recoveries dont kill anyway, so sa doesnt make that much of a difference), which, again, is very unique to wario and thus should be kept.
Actually, I could compare Wario's Fsmash SA frames to MK's invinc frames on grounded Up B. Is it fair for MK to have to be invinc on frames 1-5 until the hitbox is out on such a quick move? No, it isn't. While MK's can be more.... 'spammed' I suppose and is quicker than Wario's, the result is generally the same (except the end result is obviously different). The other difference being that a multi-hit move can beat Wario's SA where as no move can beat out MK's shuttle loop invinc.
I talked about this with Cape and Shell yesterday. The thing about Fsmash is, he can do it after Dair and Nair, especially after Nair. I can literally combo from both hits of Nair to Fsmash. Dair is a little different, its use is more on shield as he can weave behind them and then Fsmash. Of course, this DOES get predictable but then that's why you would weave out and then Fsmash the front instead if it got too predictable.
I think this should be taken to the Wario thread now though.
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