Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[zxeon]

Leaf also accepts personal "favors" in lieu of monetary compensation.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I guess I'll post this long wall o' text while my facial cleanser dries on....


About stale moves. The system is one that does make sense, and probably should be in the game. However, Sakurai and his team has yet to implement it "correctly" or in a manner that doesn't completely wreck the game), and I don't really think that it could or will ever be implemented correctly.
Spamming is NOT encouraged by no stale moves. Spamming is encouraged by stale moves. Several examples have been posted before, which I will reiterate now. Fox's up tilt was, to simply put it, overpowered with stale moves. He could combo many characters to around 50%. In vBrawl, 50% combos were considered envious by much of the cast. Another move I'd like to bring up is Sheik's forward tilt. Sakurai obviously did not think this one through very well. Even with DI, a good Sheik could get a 70% on a Fox. That's 70%. With one move. Which, for a smash game, is very ridiculous. Worst of all, Sheik could finish this off with an up smash or aerial for another 10-15%. hm...how about Rob's down smash? It is also encouraged by stale moves in the sense that it's not a kill move, but not really a combo move, so the lowest KB possible is encouraged. Not to mention that it has little windown, can be pulled off right after an airdodge, and has good range, it was simply made even more stupidly good with stale moves.

Let's talk about water. It is the staple point of many stages, such as Delfino Plaza and Jungle Japes. However, it has always been implemented poorly in the smash series. Personally, I hate water. It's very annoying in general, you can stall in it, and it takes too long for you to die. The first step would be to remove it. Then, we should go from there to "fix it" and clean it up. Thank God for codes.

My final point is about airdodges, rolls, and sidestep dodges. Free invincibility in itself is broken. The creators did attempt to balance it out, but very poorly (once again, eh?). The invincbility lasts too long on all of these (Peach's airdodge being exempt IMO), and they are too easily spammable. Overall, I think the invincibility frames need to overall be shortened, and more balanced between each character. Jigglypuff's AD, SD, and rolls seem to be a good baseline.



..........eh, who am I kidding? My posts aren't NEARLY as sexy as leafgreen's.

*sobs*

 

[Shadic]

If you're nerfing airdodges, rolls, and sidesteps more, you have to account for balance in these cases. Link's awesome sidestep is one of the few things he's actually good at, for example.

Yes, shut up, I'm a biased Link main.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, obviously you'd have to balance stuff out like that and weigh it against the character's individual weaknesses and strengths. For example, if I made all of Link's attacks do 1% per hit, of course I'd give him a sexy spotdodge.

/very exaggerated example

but some characters coughfalcocough have crazy dodges and yet have many strengths as well. These are the ones I'm talking about. The ONLY dodge that might actually need buffing is Peach's airdodge. maybe.

 

[GameSystem]

For stale moves why don't you just leave it as vbrawl style but have the knockback penalties go in reverse. Like a 5 damage move with 50 bkb or w/e that usually goes to 4 damage and 40 bkb will now go to 4 damage and 60 bkb to compensate for the damage reduction. It's a roundabout way of achieving melee method. Idk i'm just spamming random ideas.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Pirate ship is gonna be such a good olimar CP once we have moon gravity water. Him in water without blue pikmin=dead.

And I think this is a good thing, for one if Olimar really has to he can just try and get as many blue pikmin as possible and also he just has to stay above the water.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

For stale moves why don't you just leave it as vbrawl style but have the knockback penalties go in reverse. Like a 5 damage move with 50 bkb or w/e that usually goes to 4 damage and 40 bkb will now go to 4 damage and 60 bkb to compensate for the damage reduction. It's a roundabout way of achieving melee method. Idk i'm just spamming random ideas.

This would basically be the melee system, although it does actually sound reasonable. If we had to have a SMS, I would go with this.

And Matt, yes, it would be a good Olimar CP. But that's not saying that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[twiblets]

when is nightly builds set 5.0 gonna be converted for PAL?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

When someone gets it ported. Although a lot of them seem to be lazy when it comes to porting stuff. /sarcasm



although I guess there'd be more to port since they'd have to port each PAC file as well...

 

[Shadic]

When someone gets it ported. Although a lot of them seem to be lazy when it comes to porting stuff.

Lazy? There's ONE person who ports to PAL, and he has a life too, you know.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I was being sarcastic, guys....


and I know there's only one person. I understand that it's hard to port stuff too. And I know what a "life" is, believe it or not.

 

[leafgreen386]

For stale moves why don't you just leave it as vbrawl style but have the knockback penalties go in reverse. Like a 5 damage move with 50 bkb or w/e that usually goes to 4 damage and 40 bkb will now go to 4 damage and 60 bkb to compensate for the damage reduction. It's a roundabout way of achieving melee method. Idk i'm just spamming random ideas.

You do realize that base isn't affected by stale moves... at all? And yes, please, give me a base buff on my stale moves so that I can spam them and make them kill off the top sooner by chasing my foe up high. Please, please, please!

...No. The melee system where damage doesn't affect kb at all is probably the best stale moves system, but even that system is flawed. Your method of compensating base for a growth drop is extremely flawed, as that will actually end up making moves send further at low percents and more effective for kills near the blastzone. I'm not particularly interested in my combo starter knocking my opponent out of range for my next move because it's staled.

 

[camelot]

I'm sure he meant knockback growth, not base.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

^ which would, in turn, make it like the melee system.

although I hate the whlole stale moves shebang in general.

 

[zxeon]

Stale moves rewards the player being hit by reducing the damage they take and punishes the person attacking by reducing their KO ability and damage. If you are dumb enough to get hit over and over by the same moves you deserve to lose to those same moves.

The only thing stale moves does is make matches more campy and take longer. Because to keep your KO move fresh for when you need it you need to spam some other worthless move to move your KO move to the front of the queue or risk not getting that KO.

In short when people have to ration their moves and spam moves out of a queue you get vBrawl matches that take forever because of camping, spam and people living forever.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Stale moves rewards the player being hit by reducing the damage they take and punishes the person attacking by reducing their KO ability and damage. If you are dumb enough to get hit over and over by the same moves you deserve to lose to those same moves.

The only thing stale moves does is make matches more campy and take longer. Because to keep your KO move fresh for when you need it you need to spam some other worthless move to move your KO move to the front of the queue or risk not getting that KO.

In short when people have to ration their moves and spam moves out of a queue you get vBrawl matches that take forever because of camping, spam and people living forever.

Please tell me how fox up tilt spamming to up smash kill is "reducing" KO ability.

Tell me how sheik f tilt spam to up smash kill is reducing KO ability.

Stale moves REWARD spamming and REWARDS the attacker by allowing them to continue chains and spam moves and lead into kill moves.

 

[zxeon]

You're kidding right?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yes, I am kidding.


*cough*


Stales moves is a ******y system that should never be implemented into smash again, unless they learn how to not fricking shoot themselves in the foot with it everytime.

I swear if you guys put stale moves in again like it was in vbrawl..............raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaage

/rant

 

[crazycrackers]

Move staling is just a flawed system. And we're fine with our current system. Move staling interferes with the gameplay of some characters, and just isn't a good idea in general. This is smash, there are characters that are reliant on a few key moves, and stale moves screws with their game. Of course you could say "use other moves", but at the same time, some characters don't have "other moves" that are reliable. And I'm relatively sure we don't want to take a big step back having to re-balance characters again because they need an all around, good moveset. Melee stale moves is the closest thing to legitimate, but even that is a flawed system.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

and btw the chat on brawlplus.net is raging about ganon's brokenness. you might want to "fix" him if you don't want a bunch of complaints shot up your *** when the next nightly comes out.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Specifically what is broken about him?

 

[CloneHat]

LOL the chat.

Let's see some reasoning.

 

[Isatis]

Trying to change the topic in chat = useless

 

[IC3R]

IMO a staling system doesn't need to be in...

 

[Dan_X]

Move staling is just a flawed system. And we're fine with our current system. Move staling interferes with the gameplay of some characters, and just isn't a good idea in general. This is smash, there are characters that are reliant on a few key moves, and stale moves screws with their game. Of course you could say "use other moves", but at the same time, some characters don't have "other moves" that are reliable. And I'm relatively sure we don't want to take a big step back having to re-balance characters again because they need an all around, good moveset. Melee stale moves is the closest thing to legitimate, but even that is a flawed system.

QFT. We should just keep the system as is: no system.

 

[kupo15]

I didn't type that much but multiquotes really make your posts twice as long

original staling post

I agree and I think a stale system would benefit the game, but don't think about introducing fresh bonus unless you can control it. Fresh bonus is an interesting design that was implemented poorly because you can be going for a combo and this one particular move fits the situation to continue the combo but BAM! That move just happened to be fresh and you lost the combo because you couldn't control the extra kb not to mention that you weren't expecting it. This is a good example of removing options from the player for no reason whatsoever. If you could have an indicator of when the move is fresh and also allow for control of use through another button, that would be worth looking into but I doubt you would be able to find the perfect implementation.

I'm pretty sure 64 only had damage staling. The misconception between damage only staling, as that as a result of damage going down with staling, KB is indirectly effected.

No. I'm pretty sure your wrong. I'm pretty sure 64 stale moves system works exactly like Brawl's where it affects both kb and % (which also attributes to growth kb staling) except its not as powerful. Even melee had this form of staling on projectiles

Here's the thing. Do we really need a stale moves system?

I think its a good idea to have a small stale moves system. This is what I said earlier:

If you're nerfing airdodges, rolls, and sidesteps more, you have to account for balance in these cases. Link's awesome sidestep is one of the few things he's actually good at, for example.

Yes, shut up, I'm a biased Link main.

Don't worry about being biased in this case. Link and YLink had amazing (vbrawl good) spot dodges in melee but very poor rolls. Taking that away from them would be a sin

IMO a staling system doesn't need to be in...

Maybe your right because Brawl+'s ledge game is still crap so that you can still recover easily if you are not outright killed. Its not like in Melee where if a staled move should have killed (granted, if you were even aware that the move was staled in the first place) you could still edge guard efficiently enough to get the kill anyway for a little more work that is "well rounded"

You should consider trying it out and adding it in yourself just to see anyway. Try a really weak system out because I actually enjoyed it better.

QFT. We should just keep the system as is: no system.

Then you are potentially in for a B+ where combos are very stale and boring

 

[Mattnumbers]

What if there was a system so that if you used the same move repeatedly without using another one it's KB increases each time? That could stop many repetitive things in the game, while making interesting strategies appear when trying to KO someone.
The effect wouldn't be all that pronounced of course, just enough to say, stop utilt combos after the third(ish) Utilt or something, obviously depending on the character.
I don't know I haven't thought it through it just seems like a cool idea right now.

 

[VietGeek]

That sounds like MK dair's wet dream.

And Snake's Ftilt wet dream.

And Ike's Jab which is STILL ON AUTOJAB ( >=( )'s wet dream.

It's my wet dream and yours.

Is that wrong?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

don't forget fox's up smash.

and snake up tilt.

and pikachu's thunder.

@_@

 

[GameSystem]

and btw the chat on brawlplus.net is raging about ganon's brokenness. you might want to "fix" him if you don't want a bunch of complaints shot up your *** when the next nightly comes out.

It's a little trick we use to troll zeonstar. Every time he hears that ganon is top tier or broken, he plays worse and we beat him easier.

 

[Mattnumbers]

don't forget fox's up smash.

and snake up tilt.

and pikachu's thunder.

@_@

Your forgetting that if you do other moves in between them it resets.

Also, its not like it has to be every move, it can be removed from ones that are troublesome.

 

[metaXzero]

If a player is spamming the same move repeatedly, punish their predictability until they learn. If not possible, the move is much better then the rest of their moveset in many situations and should be brought in line.

No matter how I see it, a stale move system will either make a miniscule difference to gameplay (Melee) or make a negative difference (Brawl). In traditional fighters, staling only applies to long combos, not single moves that manage to hit the opponent repeatedly in non-combos.

 

[TLMSheikant]

@ mattnumbers- Youre forgetting that they could just spam those. >_>

 

[crazycrackers]

Move staling just doesn't seem like a good idea. If your opponent is spamming the same move over and over, they shouldn't get punished for that since YOU should punish them anyway. If you're not punishing someone for using the same move repeatedly, you're just getting outplayed. There is no reason to "punish" someone for using the same move, since that should be happening anyway.

@Matt, that would just encourage the abuse of kill moves like Snake's utilt or MK dsmash. Something like that. It would help everyone, but help some people drastically, and would most likely end badly.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Yeah I was just throwing the idea out there.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

It is one of those ideas that would be great for some characters, and horrible for others. Therefore, I say that we keep the old system.

And kupo, why is your name yellow again?

 

[kupo15]

Move staling just doesn't seem like a good idea. If your opponent is spamming the same move over and over, they shouldn't get punished for that since YOU should punish them anyway. If you're not punishing someone for using the same move repeatedly, you're just getting outplayed. There is no reason to "punish" someone for using the same move, since that should be happening anyway.

I totally understand where your logic comes from but I think it does more than that. Having some form of stale moves makes the game less EZ mode because without it, you see the same boring combos over and over again. Stale system also makes moves that are not staple combos able to combo every now and again thus adding to the combo game. There isn't anyone in the world that can convince me that B+ combos are better nor more diverse than Melee's and I think part of the reason is with the stale system.

Another point. If you look at projectiles in particular, they could get somewhat ridiculous without staleness that they are maybe "too" effective. Yes, if the opponent is noob enough to fall for the same thing, it doesn't make sense that the aggressor should get "punished" with staleness. I get that, but you also have to look at it from another view. Maybe no stale system is "too much" punishment for the silly noob for how easy it is to spam projectiles. There has to be a reason why projectiles in melee suffer to the stale system more than regular attacks.

This is a video game trying to simulate fighting and as such, it has limitations to it. Stale system can be a way to balance things out and make the game less EZ mode by telling the player that you shouldn't be rewarded 10 fold every time for doing the same thing over and over again. Its not saying that you get no reward for being able to pull off the same moves over and over again. They do get damage and as damage increases, the kb also increases drastically especially without stale moves. Its not like stale moves will make your next same move weaker than the first one you did because damage has been increased. Stale moves can also be a way to temper the potency of moves due to damage so they don't escalate too quickly and kill too fast which ultimately can lead to stale and boring combos.

Obviously, there is a wrong way to implement stale moves. Vbrawl's stale system was way too powerful. The best stale system is one where you don't even notice its there, but it still enhances gameplay. Stale move system obviously is very tricky and seems very hypocritical but if done right, I do feel that it does enhance gameplay, somehow. I really can't explain it, you just have to try out a good stale system. Just some thoughts on it.

 

[Doval]

I totally understand where your logic comes from but I think it does more than that. Having some form of stale moves makes the game less EZ mode because without it, you see the same boring combos over and over again. Stale system also makes moves that are not staple combos able to combo every now and again thus adding to the combo game. There isn't anyone in the world that can convince me that B+ combos are better nor more diverse than Melee's and I think part of the reason is with the stale system.

This is a pretty compelling point but I'm not sold. You're not wrong in saying that Stale Moves increases the amount of possible combos (it may or may not introduce new imbalances as well but that's irrelevant to that point.) However, it seems to me that the player can't really take advantage of that fact because of the inherent variability of the system. There is no way to know for sure which combos are possible in the heat of a match when Stale Moves is in effect; so not only is the player unable to capitalize on new combos, he's also uncertain the original ones work any more. And trying to keep track of the state of your different moves is impractical to the point of being impossible, and just becomes an unwelcome distraction and mental burden to the player. In the end, even if "properly" implemented, I highly doubt it would be a pleasant addition to the game.

Very late edit: There's also the fact that combo opportunities aren't equal in Smash. Since combos aren't based on doing a string of attacks against a near-static target, different combos almost invariably start with different attacks. Those different attacks aren't equally viable to land. Stale Moves will inevitably ruin the staple combos - those that start with reliable attacks - while introducing new combos based off less reliable options. That's not an equal trade-off.

I'm also rather wary of your use of the phrase "same boring combos" since this is something that every fighter, even the most celebrated, fun to play and fun to watch ones (Marvel VS Capcom 2, Capcom VS SNK 2, Third Strike, Guilty Gear come to mind) eventually reduce to. Noobs and top players alike will use bread and butter combos. That's never detracted from the worth of the game. The tired old combos are just the most effective means of doing damage - and the most effective means will always prevail (just look at SvC2's A-Groove - lets you do "custom combos" yet there are bread and butter combos for those too.) The real beauty comes from the game's ability to provide the magic that happens between combos - the mix-ups, the mind games, the poke games, the wakeup games, the fakeouts, the pressure strings, and whatever other abstract concepts we've successfully labeled. Likewise the most respected Smash players have never been venerated as much for their ability to execute the bread and butter combos but for every other skill they posses, which is what separates them from those that only have tech skill.

As for projectiles, it seems like a roundabout way to address the issue of projectile spam. I mean, yeah, it's kind of a "kill two birds with one stone" sort of thing - if you were to implement Stale Moves you could address projectile spam too. But since the primary reason for implementing Stale Moves is already questionable, it doesn't seem that sound to use the unrelated issue of projectile spamming to push support for Stale Moves. It seems like something that's better fixed by addressing the problem directly - tweaking the game's movement and defence mechanisms so they provide reasonable ways of dealing with projectiles, or tweaking the projectiles themselves. (Getting back the reflector effect on power shielding would go such a long way towards this, but I imagine coding it is no easy feat since we still don't have it...)

 

[WheelOfFish]

I disagreed with adding in a form of stale move negation at first, but the more I think about it, adding in a, as Kupo put it, game-enhancing but hard to notice manner would be best. I have noticed that without stale moves, I have set combos and there really isn't a ton of variability for each of the characters I play. There is SOME variability, but repeating the same combos at the same percents is so effective without stale moves.

 

[crazycrackers]

True that putting in stale moves would make things less easy, but there are much less flawed ways we can achieve more difficultly. It seems like we've been mentioning that we should add in B+ specific ATs but never do it. :V