Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Alphatron]

Am I the only one who thinks that part of the reason people call this game too easy is because the chars they play with are overall better now and have more options?


Not that this is a major contributer, as it fades away at high level play.

Also, kupo had a good post.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well of course that's part of it, but a character being better does in itself make the character easier to play (unless you do it in a creative way IE JC Shine).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I feel like that is so.

OMG CAPTAIN FALCON IS USABABLE NOW. ....wait...


OMG IT CANT BE TRUE THIS GAME IS TOO EZ


:O:O:O:O


>.> /exaggerated rant

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

lower hitstun? a bit?
i feel theres a bit too much right now

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I would prefer increasing hitlag rather than decreasing hitstun. Lots of hitstun is good


just don't get comboed

 

[WheelOfFish]

I feel like a sheep buuuuut I agree with Kupo too. XD

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

yeah, i dont mean alot, but just a liiiittle bit so its a little bit harder to combo your opponent mercilecly
but on the other hand its all adding to risk reward, so hitstun isn't a bad thing

increasing hitlag sounds fine xD
maybe specificly multi hit moves on the ground so you cant get pinned against a wall or somthing..

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hitlag. See: Smash 64 Kirby dair. @_@ that thing is like the mother ****** of hitlag.

 

[Stevo]

mario down-b in 64 was pretty hitlaggy too lol

 

[thesage]

Hitlag. See: Smash 64 Ness Pkt2. @_@ that thing is like the mother ****** of hitlag.

Fixed.

How will hitlag make the game better? It'll just make stuff easier to di.

 

[Dantarion]

Right now its almost impossible to SDI most multihit moves, or at least, it is for me.

Also, now that we have PSA, we can tweak the hitlag/SDI on specific moves

 

[leafgreen386]

Actually, a lot of moves right now have only one frame of hitlag, and as such, cannot be SDI'd. Magus is working on fixing this right now, and you should expect some major hitlag revamps for the next set.

That's funny, I don't remember seeing you there when "Brawl+ started out"

Your memory is obviously faulty, then, seeing as I've been with this project since the days of s-cancel and wavedashing.

So we want ledgeteching that increase in bouce distance each time, correct? So, in theory, you would have "limited" tech attempts?

Um... no. It's not necessary. It already becomes progressively harder to ledgetech as your percent increases, and as your percent rises, you become more and more vulnerable to getting blasted off the stage. Even if a player does end up ledgeteching a move 12 times in a row, that 1) would be awesome, and 2) would mean the edgeguarding player just needs to hit them with something far enough away from the ledge that they can't tech it and they're pretty much guaranteed a kill.

I would rather the tech just send you at a different angle so that you have to recover differently after a successful tech. This keeps stuff like the Dtilt ->ledge tech, Dtilt ->ledge tech , repeat cycle from happening.

Lrn2walljumptech

 

[timothyung]

I don't think ledge tech should be added in because... it helps the recoverer. Instead we can just decrease the ledge grab range so that it's harder to sweetspot, but if you do it perfectly, you can't get hit by any on stage attacks. i.e. fix the ridiculous sweetspot size of some characters

 

[kupo15]

I would prefer increasing hitlag rather than decreasing hitstun. Lots of hitstun is good


just don't get comboed

Lots of hitstun like 64? I tease

yeah, i dont mean alot, but just a liiiittle bit so its a little bit harder to combo your opponent mercilecly
but on the other hand its all adding to risk reward, so hitstun isn't a bad thing

IMO hitstun should be lowered, and as magus said, adjust moves with IASA.

But a brief look at all the games shows how various methods of hitstun implementation technically work but the outcomes of the game are much different:

64
Extreme hitstun: Long 0-death combos were very prevalent and also just long combos in general. This also includes things like 6x utilts that combo into other moves. No DI (not SDI) and no wall teching or air dodging also made the combo game quite easy. Also, the fact that there was no air dodging allowed, wall techs and DI still allowed for you to be fancy with your combos because you could zone pretty easily.

Melee

Balanced Hitstun: The hitstun was very balanced as to not allow for guaranteed insane combos like 64. Melee added in several mechanics to help the zoning game and placed a big emphasis on long combos being a combination of guaranteed 2 or 3 hit combos as well as being able to effectively zone on opponents after you landed your last guaranteed hit. Mechanics like NADT helped the player to zone better to make up for the lack of hitstun so that way skilled players can effectively remove options from the defending player without the help of hitstun. This is called a string. Higher gravity also helped the ground game out so that you can continue combos without the need of high hitstun as well.

This reliance on being able to mindgame your first hit and long combos consisting of small guaranteed moves (which then lead into the zoning aspect without help from hitstun) to continuing the combo via strings [while at the same time demanded high technical skill and adaptability to DI] sped up the game and made long combos really challenging. The great thing about melee's awesome combos is the fact that you must take a risk if you wanted to continue the combo because the opponent was out of hitstun and had some means to defend themselves. If you were successful at zoning and connecting the string, this usually lead to at least another guaranteed move as your reward.

Melee had a great set of mechanics that allowed for such a variety in the combo game without relying on hitstun to help you out. You could choose to be very combo flashy oriented to win, as you see many people do, or you can be like Cactuar who basically has a very different playstyle which is very very very string oriented yet he still wins. This is the reason why Cactuar has yet to have a combo video. He doesn't "combo," he just hits you over...and over...and over....again.

Also, Melee had a stale moves system which IMO actually add to the gameplay despite all of the logical hate against it. Yes it can be considered lazy on the programmers and a little arbitrary to force you adapt, but if you think about it, a little staleness enough so that your hitstun will be just short of comboing can actually be better. It can be better because you only have so many moves. Stale moves can be a nice subtle way to add a little mix to moves to expand the combo possibilities so that combos don't become stale. Vbrawls stale moves is definitely too much
VBrawl
No hitstun: The combo game is all hit for hit and an overpowered defensive game made zoning much harder to do

Brawl+:
Moderately High Hitstun (IMO): Right now, the hitstun isn't as bad as 64 but it is high enough to make comboing on the easy side not to mention that you don't really need a proficient amount of tech skill to perform them. The zoning mechanics are lacking because they simply are not there so you comboing is very hitstun based instead of giving you the freedom to be on a scale like melee was. If you were to lower hitstun right now, you would need to add some mechanics to help the zoning game (which people don't seem to want to do) or increase gravity (which people don't seem to want to do either) or give moves a quicker IASA so you can keep your important combos if any are lost.

Lowering hitstun and adding something else to compensate also level the playing field for characters who are hitstun based and who are string based. Right now, IMO the hitstun based characters have a leg up with the higher hitstun. So by lowering hitstun and adding some zoning mechanics, you balance out the two styles of combo characters

There is no stale moves system which makes the combo game a little stale in that you see a repetition of the same comboes being used. In fact, 64 had a stale moves system that IIRC was exactly like brawl's except it is very weak. I remember trying out a really weak stale system and noticed an improvement in gameplay. The combos were more diverse and things moves didn't kill so early all the time. I can't really explain it. You will just have to try it. The fresh move bonus is bullshi* though.

I personally think Brawl+ should head in Melee's combo direction so that you need to develop your hitstun combos and your string combos and be able to mesh them seamlessly. You have to realize that things still won't be as technical or as hard as melee's combo system from the nature of the Brawl engine and the fact that the there isn't l canceling.

Your memory is obviously faulty, then, seeing as I've been with this project since the days of s-cancel and wavedashing.
Lrn2walljumptech

Not to mention that you have also been very consist in keeping up. IIRC, there was a period of many weeks that I never saw Zxeon...

Um... no. It's not necessary. It already becomes progressively harder to ledgetech as your percent increases, and as your percent rises, you become more and more vulnerable to getting blasted off the stage. Even if a player does end up ledgeteching a move 12 times in a row, that 1) would be awesome, and 2) would mean the edgeguarding player just needs to hit them with something far enough away from the ledge that they can't tech it and they're pretty much guaranteed a kill.

3. or to mix up his edge guarding by mindgaming in a weak hit, or adjust his timing to trick them, or mindgame a "no hit" so they pop above the ledge and blast them with a falcon punch

 

[Blank Mauser]

If the game is too easy, simply play better opponents. Why does the game have to artificially make things challenging when the real fight should be against the other player?

 

[Mattnumbers]

The perceived problem is that there is a relatively low skill cap.

 

[camelot]

I remember trying out a really weak stale system and noticed an improvement in gameplay.

You mean like, 1/2 staling? Or maybe even 3/4?

But what about the issues move staling had before? Like, Mario/Fox's u-tilt comboing into itself 4 or 5 times in a row, because of decreasing knockback due to staling. I guess individual moves could be modified to prevent this from happening, though.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm kinda hesitant about saying lowering hitstun would be a good idea because I don't know if it would screw over slow characters... maybe it wouldn't though? DK did okay-ish in Melee but he's obviously not all that slow.

 

[Dark Sonic]

But if anyone has seen that video vs falco and dr mario, the dr. mario ledgeteches like 10 times before the falco LETS him onto the stage again. We don't want that, right?

Doc has one of the largest ledgegrab ranges in melee (Doc teleport anyone? That's about the average size of brawl ledgegrab ranges actually). Learn to sweetspot?

About hitstun being lowered...does that mean I lose my Sonic combos? Q_Q A lot of his combos are pretty borderline already and right now he plays very much like a combo oriented character, but because his bair is slow and his uair is inconsistent in linking (yet they're both his best aerials, go figure) he's really not all that good at continuing to pressure the opponent.

Now if hitstun were only lowered a couple of frames (I'm hoping that's what you're asking for), then his combos would just become frame traps (where his attack will still come out before other characters' attacks), which I guess would be okay.

I'm just afraid that similar borderline combo characters will suffer (we can rebalance them though <_<)

 

[MK26]

I'd like to request that ganondorf be less...ridiculous, for lack of a better word. Who decided to let his aerial wizard kick be safe on block and comboable on hit? How could this possibly get past beta testing, much less several nightlies? Tone down the speed-up please.

4-frame startup on jab, bbrawl-style angle on up-b, untechable side-b, and FIX THE GOD**** UTILT. Right now it seems like ganon is a 2-trick pony. He has a bunch of abusable, stupid crap, and a bunch of worthless, stupid crap. Very little middle ground.

======

Also, I heard that the reason so many non-B+ers placed high at SNES was that everybody else was a scrub.

======

Y'know what? I think the best thing for Brawl+ right now would be to just decrease hitstun. Don't add any crazy tricks or change gravities or anything, just cut like 1-2 frames off weak hits, which would translate to 2-3 off medium hits and 3-5 off stronger hits. I'd like to see how that turns out.

An edge game revamp would be nice too. Just don't decrease sweetspot range and call it a day. In other ledge new, Lylat has some of the trippiest edges you will ever see, yet they are ridiculously consistent once you figure out where the friggin sweetspot area actually is (protip: it's almost above the ledge).

EDIT: i get the distint impression that absolutely nobody plays b+ olimar. discuss.

 

[thesage]

Actually the people with the largest ledgegrab ranges in melee were (in order)

Ness
GaW
Shiek (after up-b)

I forgot the rest. I just know that the Mario's were pretty high up and the chu's were like last or something...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Y'know what? I think the best thing for Brawl+ right now would be to just decrease hitstun. Don't add any crazy tricks or change gravities or anything, just cut like 1-2 frames off weak hits, which would translate to 2-3 off medium hits and 3-5 off stronger hits. I'd like to see how that turns out.

That's just weakining the offense while giving it nothing in return, encouraging defensive play more <_<.

Being on the offense needs to be appealing for people to do it. I really wanna try Magus's trimmed airdodges and we're working on a possible trim to sidesteps and rolls as well. They'll be handled on a character specific basis though. Techrolls will be handled character specifically as well (there's no reason for MK to get a techroll speedup when he had a good one in the first place <_<). Those things will soften up the defense so lowering hitstun may be justified if they get through.

Actually the people with the largest ledgegrab ranges in melee were (in order)

"One of" is a very nice disclaimer for talking about something that you know is in a particular group, but unsure of it's exact location (I also didn't define highest, but I'm pretty sure Doc is top 10 <_<)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Is the WBR planning on any further AD changes other than just trimming some frames off of them?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Is the WBR planning on any further AD changes other than just trimming some frames off of them?

I think Magus was making them overall shorter, but also have less invincibility to vulnerability (ratio-wise) So they still dodge the move, but they're not getting around things like sex kicks/Ike's uair (I've actually seen someone dodge his entire uair once. Maybe I just spaced it wrong and the back of it wasn't on them as they got out the airdodge <_<)

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'd like to request that ganondorf be less...ridiculous, for lack of a better word. Who decided to let his aerial wizard kick be safe on block and comboable on hit? How could this possibly get past beta testing, much less several nightlies? Tone down the speed-up please.

4-frame startup on jab, bbrawl-style angle on up-b, untechable side-b, and FIX THE GOD**** UTILT. Right now it seems like ganon is a 2-trick pony. He has a bunch of abusable, stupid crap, and a bunch of worthless, stupid crap. Very little middle ground.

Ganon's wizkick has HUGE landing lag. It's been improved but it isn't that great of a move outside of edgeguarding. Up-b is a pretty bad offensive move, and an easily gimped recovery, and I'm pretty sure side-b is techable (though not completely sure)... either way, the move is easy to avoid. Dunno about cancelable u-tilt... I don't use it that much.

What I'm trying to say is that Ganon has a really tough time getting in, but once he does, he's got a lot of options. He's a great character, but he has his weaknesses.

 

[timothyung]

But Ganon's utilt really needs to be looked into again.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm fine with that. I was never pioneering for the change myself.

 

[MK26]

u kidding foo? wizkick --> ftilt/jab/dtilt all dai
safe on shield too, and it eats projectiles

I should have mentioned that the second paragraph is my wish list, but i thought that'd be obvious <_< >_>

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

But Ganon's utilt really needs to be looked into again.

i remember a while back it was being changed to only ccancel into certain moves.

 

[timothyung]

But what moves? We didn't have a conclusion. And does it really need to be interruptible?

 

[Dark Sonic]

But what moves?

Probably jump and maybe his B moves. Things like uptilt->jab/f-tilt have gotta go <_<

Oh, and the IASA may only be BEFORE the uptilt actually kicks so...yeah don't get used to comboing off of uptilt? (lolwut?)

Or it may be trashed altogether leaving Ganon's cool vacum uptilt useless again <_<.

 

[[TSON]]

*drives car through firewall and into thread*




Don't lower hitstun.









*backs up and leaves*

 

[Shadic]

About hitstun being lowered...does that mean I lose my Sonic combos? Q_Q A lot of his combos are pretty borderline already and right now he plays very much like a combo oriented character, but because his bair is slow and his uair is inconsistent in linking (yet they're both his best aerials, go figure) he's really not all that good at continuing to pressure the opponent.

Speaking of Sonic... Can we please get his aerial momentum up to where it should be, now? In all/most Sonic games, he had great momentum from a jump and if I recall, the only reason it was kept low in Brawl+ was because of his Fair not linking together. That's easily fixed now.

 

[Stevo]

please done reduce hitstun.

at the current hitstun, many combos are just BARELY do-able for many characters. If some characters combos are too easy, nerf their hitstun, but I would suggest not changing it globally.

Increase hitlag a bit would be good.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

But what moves? We didn't have a conclusion. And does it really need to be interruptible?

we had a rough list, but i'd rather not find it again through the hundreds of pages
i dont think it needs to be interruptable really
a speed up would be fine

We arent reducing hitstun so theres no reason to worry

EDIT:

Speaking of Sonic... Can we please get his aerial momentum up to where it should be, now? In all/most Sonic games, he had great momentum from a jump and if I recall, the only reason it was kept low in Brawl+ was because of his Fair not linking together. That's easily fixed now.

would we fix it by giving it a 365 degree angle? or hitlag, or...idk, what's the plan?

 

[cAm8ooo]

Now if hitstun were only lowered a couple of frames (I'm hoping that's what you're asking for), then his combos would just become frame traps (where his attack will still come out before other characters' attacks), which I guess would be okay.

What exactly is the difference between frame traps and combos if in both your attacks come out before your opponents?

Also, Not to fond of the idea of lowering hitstun due to falco400 hammering in my head about how it would effect the cookie cutter combos.

I do support (and have for like 4 months) the idea of adding ledge teching and shortening the ledge grab range. It's a combo deal for me though. We either have both or neither.

edit: Also Silence, Your post made me laugh abunch. I dont know why. I just got a good picture in my head.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Speaking of Sonic... Can we please get his aerial momentum up to where it should be, now? In all/most Sonic games, he had great momentum from a jump and if I recall, the only reason it was kept low in Brawl+ was because of his Fair not linking together. That's easily fixed now.

It was kept low in brawl+ because high aerial momentum damages his game. Uair stops linking, crossing up with bair now has a lot more commitment and overall less utility (as you have to start further away from them and thus can't use it in as many situations. Sonic really like staying close to the opponent once he's actually gotten in), ASC loses some utility, ect, ect. A large part of Sonic's approach game is really just weaving through the opponent's known blindspots to attack and raising his momentum too high really hurts this.

We tried high momentum and it was terrible for his entire game. Fair wasn't the only problem <_<

What exactly is the difference between frame traps and combos if in both your attacks come out before your opponents?

Just because my attacks are coming out before theirs, doesn't mean that they can't get out of the combo. It just means that they can't hit me back for attempting it (unless they have a 1 frame attack or something that's invincible from startup). They'll still be able to airdodge out though (with revamped airdodges this could be interesting, though I still think Sonic would fall a little in terms of overall strength).

 

[Shadic]

would we fix it by giving it a 365 degree angle? or hitlag, or...idk, what's the plan?

Make the hits at the beginning send people more forward, or something.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Problem is...that wasn't the reason Sonic's momentum was toned down <_<

 

[Sails]

Wait, am I late?