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[Sails]

Click for my stance on removing sideB snapping.

Spoiler

Absolutely not.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

Edit: Nevermind, it would hardly effect marth, so he would benefit a lot more then he lost from it. I had a misunderstanding about what this was about.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think you missed my point.

My point is that it wouldn't just be a straight benefit for marth. Since his recovery is somewhat predictable and not that great, he would suffer from it as well. (Although not as much as he would benefit.)

Point taken.

EDIT: MAKE UP YOUR MIND DAMMIT :V

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I'm going to put this as kindly as I possibly can: screw you.

is this attitude necessary?

 

[GHNeko]

...Couldn't we buff the bottom/low/mid tier (and maybe even low high to mid high tier) characters with par to sub par recoveries if the ledge snap range is reduced?

Once we figure out how to individualize snap sizes, we could cater to special characters who suffer and already have poor recoveries ie Mario, Boozer, maybe Falcon, Link, etc etc.

You get my point.

And even if we cant change individual snap sizes, surely we can find a way to compensate the nerfs to said characters. Right?

Or am I just speaking in the language of pipe dreams?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Couldn't we buff the bottom/low/mid tier (and maybe even low high to mid high tier) characters with par to sub par recoveries if the ledge snap range is reduced?

Once we figure out how to individualize snap sizes, we could cater to special characters who suffer and already have poor recoveries ie Mario, Boozer, maybe Falcon, Link, etc etc.

You get my point.

And even if we cant change individual snap sizes, surely we can find a way to compensate the nerfs to said characters. Right?

Or am I just speaking in the language of pipe dreams?

It makes sense. However, I don't really see why this is such a big deal (with the exception of characters that have ridiculous recoveries, but most of them don't care anyways). And besides, tether recoveries completely screw that whole thing over.

 

[Shadic]

is this attitude necessary?

I liked your original version better.

And GHNeko, the issue isn't completely about balance of characters, but more along the lines of the balance of risk vs. reward for recovering and ledgeguarding.

 

[GHNeko]

Then let tether recoveries screw it over. <_>

We'll deal with it because I know we're not removing tether recoveries any time soon, and generally most of the tether characters COULD use this advantage (except Sheik. **** this *****. Zelda needs a tether. Let's give her a Zair!!!!! </joke> )

As for balance of risk vs reward on recovering and ledgeguarding. The way I see it. You get hit. You pay the consequences, and in a game where recovery is naturally easier given practically 3x the amount of characters with good recoveries compared to previous versions of Smash. It's really not like it's a completely bad thing. There is a pro and a con to something like this and what the overall net effect will have on the game in the long run is what matters.

Personally, the net effect of a change like this in addition to catering to specific character's helps with this risk v reward issue we're having. <_>

 

[Dan_X]

I'm going to put this as kindly as I possibly can: screw you.

Brawl+ started out with limited coders and a userbase that was just happy to get a new code to expand upon the mechanics. In those days, all changes were mechanics changes. There was nothing implemented that wasn't universal. People kept playing even though they would constantly have to relearn mechanics, because these mechanics changes kept making the game better and better. Yeah, it took some adjusting, but overall, we were happy about it. We were glad that we had to adapt to this new style of play.

Then... after we realized that we were making a lot of frame speed modifications for things such as landing lag, throw speed (since has been thrown out), ledges, and jump start, we got the frame speed mod, and specific character changes started getting implemented (one of the first was MK's dsmash slowdown, if you remember). But not many were made, since we were still operating under a 256 line limit. As a result, when things started getting tight, we had to cut frame speed mods in order to fit under the limit. Then we freed ourselves from the line limit and we got the hitbox mod, and we realized that we actually were going to be able to balance this game and do a good job of it.

Unfortunately, somewhere in there, the awesome coders we had started dropping away (PW took a long break, spunit's computer died, and igglyboo never really liked brawl+ anyway), leaving us with only PK and almas to make codes. Well, they have lives, too, you know, so we had to drastically cut back on our code requests. But we had the frame speed mod. We had the hitbox mod. We could do a ton of stuff on our own, without coder's help. Well... sorta. The hitbox mod required us to ask someone with a gecko to find the hitbox data (usually ended up being either PK or giza who we would ask), but that doesn't take anywhere near as much time or effort to do compared to actually making codes. So we sorta fell into a loop where we would focus mainly on character changes, since most of the mechanics in the game had already been ironed out, and the stuff we still wanted would require a highly complicated code to do. That snowballed all the way to the release of PSA, constantly working on almost nothing but character changes. This means that for several months, the public grew used to the general mechanics put in place, and instead were adapting to their specific character changes.

Yet, still, look at this forum today. With the release of PSA, we've completed most of the character changes. The large majority of it is done at this point. But PSA also made us realize something: it reminded us that there are mechanics we wanted to add but have never been able to - mechanics that we now have the power to change. Almost anything about a character can be edited with PSA... which includes the way the game mechanics affect them. Of course, we also have kupo to thank for coming back and fighting for mechanics changes, which certainly had an impact on where we're going with this now.

Yes, we should have put in mechanics changes before we started balancing the game. Yes, we screwed up. Yes, it's very late to be doing this. But no, we should not give up on getting the mechanics for this game that we always wanted - the mechanics that we forgot about for months at a time. We should be seeking to correct this now that we have the ability to. We should be trying to make this a better game in every way we know possible. Yes, there was a long time where we only focused on character changes, but it was largely because that's what we were able to do. Now we can do more, and that shouldn't be ignored. It would be a horrible thing to pass up this opportunity to make the game better. It will delay us more, yeah. But so what? We're all plenty familiar with this taking a long time. We're all plenty familiar with constant change. There are many people complacent with vbrawl. Why do we have to grow complacent with this version of brawl+ when it can be made better than that?

The mechanics changes being discussed will require rebalancing the cast, and looking at each of their changes again. A pain? Yeah. But it'll be worth it. It'll be worth every last ounce of effort required to make this game as good as it possibly can be. I actually think a large majority of the current character changes will end up getting kept even after these mechanics changes, meaning that the time spent making them will not have been wasted. We already were planning on going through the character changes again now that PSA might be able to do something better than what we were able to do with just codes. The only difference now is that we'll also have to take into consideration the new mechanics tweaks. So I say... let's take a break from character changes for a bit and focus on the mechanics again like we should have long ago. Then, when we finally have polished the mechanics, look at character changes again, and begin the release candidate cycle.

Just because some members are impatient or reluctant to change does not mean that we shouldn't strive to make this game the best it can be. It shouldn't stop us from going back over the mechanics, and implementing what should have been done from the start. We need to do this. We could get along without it, and the game would still turn out "ok." But why settle for that? Why not reach beyond and make brawl+ "great?" There's no reason not to. We're not a company. We don't have a strict release schedule where we start losing money if we don't release this game on time. We shouldn't let sloppy game mechanics slide, and that's all there is to it.

Bravo Leaf! I found reading this to be interesting, enjoyable even. It was fun reflecting back on the early stages of Brawl+, when we were so restricted. It's amazing where this projects has gone, how the community has come together to make "magic" happen.

Someone should write the history of Brawl+ on the Brawl+ website, if it hasn't been done already. I honestly find it to be a very interesting progression.

Namely, some things I find interesting in the past are:

•The fact that the 'no tripping' code was one of the first 'big' codes we got... in time PW made the MAD code, which stirred a huge movement. Many figured 'wow, if the entire AD system can be changed... what can't we do?' It's funny how little we had in the beginning (as far as codes go), yet how excited we all were to have each one. Seriously.. I remember creating a GCT with JUST 'no tripping' and being really excited--- and skeptical as to whether or not it'd actually work!

•The limit we had to deal with was astounding! 256 lines of code, we were at a point where we were dropping codes because we didn't have room... and now we have at least 1600 lines in our current set (and plenty of more room to go)... holy crap!

•Nothing was regulated in the beginning. Everyone made their own GCTs, had their own sets, and tested their own values. Remember when we were trying to settle on the perfect hitstun value and decided that 12.5% was it? ROFL. Eventually Kupo, and a few others posted their sets for everyone to use.

•It's also interesting all of the methods that were developed to bypass 256 lines. Snapshots, 2x GCTs, etc. It's like evolution, lol.

•Then of course the formation of the WBR, and soon the plusseries, which brought a TON of order to the project, as now everyone was on the same page, using the same set of codes.

•Numerous programs were written by members of the community to carry out many different things pertaining to hacking. For example, the BRSTM converters, texture viewers, blah blah. not to mention the fact that texture hacking, and music hacking become possible.

I could go on and on...

 

[timothyung]

But being able to ledge tech helps the one who's recovering. And we shouldn't help them >.>

 

[GHNeko]

I think ledge teching should increase in distance teched with each successful and consecutive tech in a row.

That way, you cant simply tech forever, it puts a sort of pressure on the recover..er...to get back onto stage sooner, and eventually, you'd want NOT to tech.

That or you can have the distance traveled from ledge teching scale with damage so at higher percents, it might not always be a good choice to tech, and teching constantly at low percents not only increases your damage, but makes you travel farther with each tech.

Adds more "intensity" to the recovery spectrum imo.

</nekocreativity>

 

[Shadic]

But being able to ledge tech helps the one who's recovering. And we shouldn't help them >.>

Screw that, if you're changing the ledge game, we need Ledge Teching.

(I may have just watched this.)

 

[Hyrus]

As for balance of risk vs reward on recovering and ledgeguarding. The way I see it. You get hit. You pay the consequences, and in a game where recovery is naturally easier given practically 3x the amount of characters with good recoveries compared to previous versions of Smash. It's really not like it's a completely bad thing. There is a pro and a con to something like this and what the overall net effect will have on the game in the long run is what matters.

Personally, the net effect of a change like this in addition to catering to specific character's helps with this risk v reward issue we're having. <_>

Just how severe should the consequences for one hit be???

Match momentum. One of the very few philosophies that I enjoyed about vBrawl was that, without combos, the aggressive player had to constantly earn their position as the leading player. The victim player had many opportunities to escape and even reverse the momentum. The higher frequencey of exchanges would, theoretically, more easily assess the higher skilled player by their ability to repeatidly land good hits on a foe who is in an equal position to do the same to them. The sport of Tennis goes the extra mile to allow the game to stall until one player scores significantly over the other.

I'm not advocating the removal of combos, but I am stating that there are many penalties associated with a single hit already. One hit can lead to combos, severe damage and an off stage gimp. Even if you reach the ledge successfully, you only have a number of readable means to get back on the stage. And if the player does get back on the stage? The advantage is even, except the guy who just got back on the stage is at much higher damage and more likely to lose as a result.

A single outcome is streaky and unreliable compared to 100 results.

 

[kr3wman]

One hit = One stock.

That's how it should be.

 

[shanus]

Wow, I dont know what happened in this thread. Whats with all the hostility?

 

[Alphatron]

It could also be implied that larger ledges merely put more skill on trying to edgeguard.

Think about it. Taking away the SideB while rising snap(and SideB snap overall) is fine by me but consider what ledge reduction will do.

It would globally nerf the skill needed to edgeguard as characters can simply stand near the edge and spam silly attacks. Like Bowser/Charizard and firebreath. You may not even half to think of your opponent's recovery anymore.

 

[CountKaiser]

Wow, I dont know what happened in this thread. Whats with all the hostility?

People are talking about modifying the ledge snap ranges, bringing in ledgeteching, and fixing the NASL code so that hitting someone while upBing and side b's don't autosnap.

 

[Alphatron]

Wow, I dont know what happened in this thread. Whats with all the hostility?

The hostility is here so that others can view this thread and make fun of the competitive smash community even more. I wonder if the balanced brawl thread had this problem.

If you can't do indiviual ledge snap changes, then tinker with things and see what you get. DK Stage spike will probably be lost(it was in melee, but wasn't viable to use) as well as a few other things. I'm not interested in seeing recoveries be rebalanced in order to compsnsate for making the edgegaurding game easier, but I guess I'll have to see how things play out once these changes are made. Maybe there will still be a reason to edgehog(which is what you usually do when someone aims for the ledge) instead of always guarding the ledge from the stage all the time when someone tries to recover.

However, I do wish to see how a SideB snap removal could work.

Edit: Watching that 64 video just made me want taunt cancelling. I'd add it to all the pac. files myself if I knew how.

 

[Revven]

If you can't do indiviual ledge snap changes, then tinker with things and see what you get. DK Stage spike will probably be lost(it was in melee, but wasn't viable to use)

I think you misunderstand ledge teching here given the example you gave. Ledge teching is when you SDI into the ledge from a move like Marth's tipper'd Fsmash and tech it against the ledge. DK's cargo stage spike isn't part of that, you can tech it normally, it's just SO strong and fast that it's actually quite hard to tech. The actual reason why nobody really performed it in Melee is because of the higher gravity, which meant it was possible that you'd be killing yourself trying to do it, and because it wasn't nearly that hard to tech as it is in Brawl/Brawl+.

I bring up this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc to show you what ledge teching is.

 

[timothyung]

Rising sideBs already cannot auto sweetspot...

 

[JCaesar]

To whoever was asking for a video of footstools being used offensively on purpose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WvRKyOE0Uo (ignore my mad garb Falcon )

Lol. Im guessing you have been watching the latest chu+skyheart matches?

Anyways, there's not much you can do about that if the team was broken. You cant really balance out doubles (aside from getting rid of key double tactics aka omnigay) without hurting the competitive standpoint of singles. And as all we all know, singles should come first

It's pretty sad when Chu does better teaming with Random MK #496 (he's actually just a random Melee player, he hates Brawl and this was his first time playing Brawl+) than he did teaming with Meep, one of the top players in the region (who won the Brawl tourney this past weekend btw and is very good at B+ too).

I guess you could say Chu was playing better or we were playing worse or whatever, but note how badly we ***** them when Skyheart played Falcon, who is his Melee main.

Metaknight
is
still
borked

 

[Alphatron]

After manually finding your videos(Wii hates the new youtube channel format JCeasar! ;_ his Meta honestly wasn't that good. Chu had to fend for himself in the matches I saw.

 

[shanus]

I think those videos serve as zero proof of MK being broken and you guys mostly just being outplayed. Making a comparison to a player getting thrashed as B+ Falcon (when he mains melee falcon) is a null argument especially in that the characters you played as make it super hard for falcon to approach/perform well. Its just easier to space and zone as MK due to his priority than falcon, and thereby he had an easier time for that sole reason.

The MK in that video was far from broken. I'd like to see videos of an excellent MK, and you already know of the changes planned for MK in the BR set anyway.

So, yeah, flawed argument is flawed.

 

[Shadic]

It could also be implied that larger ledges merely put more skill on trying to edgeguard.

That's what I've been saying for a while now.

The CURRENT system is the hardest to ledge-guard.

However, I think that if you want a gimp/ledgeguard, you're going to have to earn it.

More skill in edgeguarding.

And the negative tone here has been caused by those who want a change acting like those who disagree are skillless scrubs. Some quotes below:

Were you also against the other removals of auto-snap before the missed ones too? I'm hoping you weren't, though I wouldn't put it past you.

What are you, some sort of communist? Explain to me how people DESERVE to recover. This is a fighting game, this isn't Candyland. No mercy.

If I made the WBR (which I won't, I'm much too inflammatory) the only thing that would change is the colour of my name. My points would remain the same, as would my position on your scrubbery.

Why people don't want something close to that excitement is beyond me.

I'm going to put this as kindly as I possibly can: screw you.

OH nooo!!!!11 you mean to say there are characters with lackluster recoveries?! this simply cannot be! characters can't have weaknesses!!!111!! !!!

And who the **** are you to tell them what to do? You won't make the final decision, so shut up about it. Get your bias out of here. Just because we might want to add a lot of Melee AT's in doesn't mean that we're biased for Melee. It just means that Melee was a superior game in general.

because it makes the ledge game have more quote unquote depth and makes recoveries less EZ mode. Stop it with your *****iness. Seriously. THAT's not warranted...at all

Snap ledges impedes competitive edgeguarding. You impede competitive edgeguarding. You also seemingly suck at this game

What in the world does it preserve other than uncompetitive vBrawl silliness that no one wants except you for some unjustified reason?

How bad are you at this game...

You guys REALLY promote civilized, polite discussion!

Quote overload, but I don't care.

 

[CloneHat]

DeLoRtEd1 seems to like saying people who he disagrees with suck at Brawl, and sage seems to have a pretty short fuse.

However, the ledge argument still goes on...

 

[Alphatron]

That video would count JCaes, if Bandit actually knew how to play Dedede.

As for the suck at the game arguement, please cut it out. That's about as dumb as ignorant brawl fanboys saying that melee players refuse to play brawl because they suck at it. It's not a counter to anything at all.

 

[JCaesar]

After manually finding your videos(Wii hates the new youtube channel format JCeasar! ;_ his Meta honestly wasn't that good. Chu had to fend for himself in the matches I saw.

I think those videos serve as zero proof of MK being broken and you guys mostly just being outplayed. Making a comparison to a player getting thrashed as B+ Falcon (when he mains melee falcon) is a null argument especially in that the characters you played as make it super hard for falcon to approach/perform well. Its just easier to space and zone as MK due to his priority than falcon, and thereby he had an easier time for that sole reason.

The MK in that video was far from broken. I'd like to see videos of an excellent MK, and you already know of the changes planned for MK in the BR set anyway.

So, yeah, flawed argument is flawed.

I know his MK sucked, that's my whole point. Chu did better teaming with a mediocre MK than he did teaming with a very smart and solid ICs/Marth player. Does that not seem wrong to you?

I know we're making some changes to MK, I just wanted to put it out there.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

im starting to think it would be a good idea for the wbr to discuss this type of thing, and then put it in a nightly wihtout talking about it here

if half the things that were discussed since last nightly, make it in the next. its gonna be huge. lol

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yes. They should put things in for us to test without us knowing about it beforehand. This would, in all honesty, create less backfire than discussing it publicly here.


although it is sad that a mediocre MK player can do better than a top-notch IC/Marth player. That is just ****ing wrong.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

make the first 2 swipes of his fair and bair do 1% and have the no flinch flag, lol
jk
....then again

 

[iLink]

although it is sad that a mediocre MK player can do better than a top-notch IC/Marth player. That is just ****ing wrong.

It is also doubles... I don't think you can really judge if a character is broken because he preforms differently in doubles.

EDIT: After watching the videos... the MK wasn't really doing much of anything except rack up damage. What aspect of his fight style was OP?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I didn't watch the video... I was just going by what other people said.

 

[cAm8ooo]

To whoever was asking for a video of footstools being used offensively on purpose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WvRKyOE0Uo (ignore my mad garb Falcon )



It's pretty sad when Chu does better teaming with Random MK #496 (he's actually just a random Melee player, he hates Brawl and this was his first time playing Brawl+) than he did teaming with Meep, one of the top players in the region (who won the Brawl tourney this past weekend btw and is very good at B+ too).

I guess you could say Chu was playing better or we were playing worse or whatever, but note how badly we ***** them when Skyheart played Falcon, who is his Melee main.

Metaknight
is
still
borked

I didnt mean that the characters shouldn't be looked at as individuals. I'm still welcome to metaknight nerfs if we need them as well as some kirby changes. I'm just stating you cant "nerf" characters based on their performance in team games alone.

 

[JCaesar]

It's not supposed to be instant "we must nerf MK" evidence. It's just one small part in a long buildup. MK is just way too easy to do well with, and even mediocre MK players can keep up with other players who have put a lot more time and effort into their characters and the game.

Obviously tiers will always exist and some characters will always be easier to use than others (I second Squirtle FFS, he's super easy) but imo the gap between MK and the rest is still quite a bit larger than it should be. That is all.

 

[Plum]

That's like saying we need to nerf G&W because he was clearly the best doubles character in vBrawl, and still among the best (can't judge if he is the best still with a lack of B+ doubles experience) in B+.
Doubles is a whole different ball bark.

Not saying I don't agree that MK is still well ahead or not (honestly with how many safe options he has he probably still is) but doubles isn't where to show it.

 

[zxeon]

I'm going to put this as kindly as I possibly can: screw you.

Brawl+ started out with limited coders and a userbase that was just happy to get a new code to expand upon the mechanics. In those days, all changes were mechanics changes. There was nothing implemented that wasn't universal. People kept playing even though they would constantly have to relearn mechanics, because these mechanics changes kept making the game better and better. Yeah, it took some adjusting, but overall, we were happy about it. We were glad that we had to adapt to this new style of play.

That's funny, I don't remember seeing you there when "Brawl+ started out"

 

[VietGeek]

Oh, oh! I was there! Just replace leaf's name with mine and it finally fits together.

...except the part where it took me nearly a year to really be a "part" of anything. =V

EDIT: Hmm, does anyone know of an airborne move that ISN'T a special that DOESN'T let you fastfall?

Working backwards yay? =V

 

[weinzey]

dont know if that's what ur looking fo, but u can't fastfall stall-then-fall moves. maybe it helps, since u can somehow ff g&w dair, it's just that it slows down instead. maybe u can start from there...

 

[thesage]

All the stall then falls technically don't let you ff while doing them... Ivysaur's dair and uair are weird too.

 

[Deleted member]

DeLoRtEd1 seems to like saying people who he disagrees with suck at Brawl, and sage seems to have a pretty short fuse.

However, the ledge argument still goes on...

Nah. People who are against rational, competitive changes to the game, in my mind, are just scrubs. That's not an insult.