Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[SymphonicSage12]

just do an upwards pound somewhere within 100m under the ledge, and you'll be sucked right up to it as soon as the animation ends.

This is exactly the kind of thing that would be fixed, so Jigglypuff's recovery isn't so EZ mode.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Hmmm.

I'm trying to think of an AT that could be used instead of ledge teching, but fulfill the same basic purpose, in that it keeps some moves from being too good at edgeguarding.

I don't know, ledge teching just feels glitchy and wrong, you're teching something in the opposite direction of the way you were hit......but that's not to say that's enough to not put something in the game, I also just don't like how if you can ledge tech properly you will never get edgeguarded by certain moves, which in turn nerfs the move.

Although, what if we made it so ledge techs actually sent you farther away than usual, but also higher so you could just reattempt to recover and the opponent would have a second chance but above the stage instead of near the ledge. I think that would be good.

 

[stingers]

why do we need all these new ats -.-

recovery is fine as is tbqh

ledge teching is just making the game more and more like melee 2.0. leave it how it is.

 

[Shell]

Regardless of whether or not it should be in, it's a perfectly reasonable progression of logic from SDIing and Teching -- Matt, it sounds like your real problem lies in the fact that you can SDI an attack in any direction.

Personally, I think it's a good example of something that can discourage "dumb" edge-guards ala sitting at the the edge and waiting for a d-tilt/smash instead of taking a risk and going out for the spike. I do acknowledge, though, that some characters must rely on this more than others (Link, for example), and it wouldn't be perfectly fair to everyone.

 

[CloneHat]

@Matt2358:

Do a techjump instead of a normal tech if you want to go higher.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

why do we need all these new ats -.-

recovery is fine as is tbqh

ledge teching is just making the game more and more like melee 2.0. leave it how it is.

They would make the game better

Lolz Melee 2.0 argument. Kupo summed this up pretty well.


Just because Melee had a lot of good AT's doesn't mean I, or Kupo, is biased for it.

And who the **** are you to tell them what to do? You won't make the final decision, so shut up about it.

Get your bias out of here. Just because we might want to add a lot of Melee AT's in doesn't mean that we're biased for Melee. It just means that Melee was a superior game in general.


QFT

 

[Mattnumbers]

@Matt2358:

Do a techjump instead of a normal tech if you want to go higher.

The whole point is I think the person on the stage should still have another go at edgeguarding, just from higher up off the stage. In other words the person should still be at an advantage since they did manage to hit the other person while they were recovering.

@Shell, yeah I guess the main thing is that you can SDI backwards enough to tech something sending you the opposite direction. Not that it's BAD, it's just weird.

@sage shut up please you make us look bad

 

[SymphonicSage12]

if you wall tech and are trying to recover again, the opponent does have an advantage in the sense that they have another chance to gimp you.

 

[MK26]

except for the part where you wall tech and grab the ledge backward...

Although, what if we made it so ledge techs actually sent you farther away than usual, but also higher so you could just reattempt to recover and the opponent would have a second chance but above the stage instead of near the ledge. I think that would be good.

so...like regular DI upwards?

 

[Mattnumbers]

if you wall tech and are trying to recover again, the opponent does have an advantage in the sense that they have another chance to gimp you.

I know, I'm saying make the ledgetech send you at a more favorable angle for the edgeguarder.

Although since this hasn't even HAPPENED yet, it's kind of hard to tell what the angle would be in the first place.

I guess I'm just trying to say that we shouldn't give the person recovering an EZ-mode way back if they ledge tech.

 

[shanus]

I know, I'm saying make the ledgetech send you at a more favorable angle for the edgeguarder.

Although since this hasn't even HAPPENED yet, it's kind of hard to tell what the angle would be in the first place.

I guess I'm just trying to say that we shouldn't give the person recovering an EZ-mode way back if they ledge tech.

Ledgeteching isn't trivial and requires practice.You would need to SDI wall-collide and tech during something which is typically 3-4 frames or less.

Saying its the EZ-mode way back to the ledge is the understatement of the year.

 

[stingers]

once again:

why is this necessary

how is this change warranted...at all

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ledgeteching isn't trivial and requires practice.You would need to SDI wall-collide and tech during something which is typically 3-4 frames or less.

Saying its the EZ-mode way back to the ledge is the understatement of the year.

Well, again, It hasn't even been implemented yet, and I haven't played melee in like 2 years, so I'm just saying this as what I don't want it to be when it IS implemented (if it's implemented that is).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

once again:

why is this necessary

how is this change warranted...at all

because it makes the ledge game have more quote unquote depth and makes recoveries less EZ mode.

Stop it with your *****iness. Seriously. THAT's not warranted...at all

 

[zxeon]

I'm for reducing ledge grab range. If some edge guards get a little too much of a boost then we will cross that bridge when we get there.

We can't just leave it this way without giving smaller ledge grab windows a chance Because right now going off stage is a gamble when characters like Captain Falcon can snap on from what seems like a character length away warping right past the edge guarder. If a certain character is having too of trouble recovering he can have a larger grab window no big deal.

 

[CloneHat]

COMPROMISE APPROACHING!

Make edge teching put you far enough away from the ledge so you won't grab it.

 

[stingers]

or just not put in ledge teching...and leave the game how it is...

i mean...has anyone really had a problem with jigglypuff catching the ledge with her side B? does it really matter? x.x

 

[SymphonicSage12]

COMPROMISE APPROACHING!

Make edge teching put you far enough away from the ledge so you won't grab it.

</YUS.>


and what emoticon is that? It's sexy.


EDIT: nvm about the emoticon

stingers, why are you so against changes? it would make ledge game more interesting and fun. We do this stuff for fun, you know.

 

[Dantarion]

Ledgeteching will not make the edge game more fun, because as it is right now, 90% of edgeguards happen outside of the ledgegrab range, and therefore outside of SDI range.

I think decreasing the edge-grab range should be done before we start thinking about ledge teching.

 

[CloneHat]

Ledgeteching will not make the edge game more fun, because as it is right now, 90% of edgeguards happen outside of the ledgegrab range, and therefore outside of SDI range.

I think decreasing the edge-grab range should be done before we start thinking about ledge teching.

Leaf's post a while back. Lemme get it...

EDIT:

K. You better start brainstorming, then. Because the chances of us lowering the ledgegrab range without fixing ledgeteching... is almost zero. The smaller ledgegrab range would mean that characters need to get closer to the stage in order to sweetspot. But in doing so, they become more vulnerable to being hit away at the last moment. While a smaller ledgegrab range boasts positives to the ledgegame (giving more varied edgeguarding options and forcing the character being edgeguarded to recovery smarter), it also comes with negatives, the primary one being making certain edgeguards too potent. Ledgeteching fixes that problem in probably the simplest way possible, by taking an already existing mechanic and giving it more use.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Leaf's post a while back. Lemme get it...

EDIT:

I really don't care if we make the range short or not, I just don't want the ridiculous range some characters (IE CF) have currently.

 

[leafgreen386]

So, CF's and Peach's fairs are going to be reversible...are any of the other ones being changed? Like, Sheik's bair, Peach's utilt, etc?

Well, as a sheik player, I actually wouldn't want to see her bair have reversible knockback. It's actually very useful the way it is.

I still say ledge grab range is fine. It has too many uses in recovery. I think Snake would probably be hurt the most without suction ledges to use for airdodge/hugging the ledge. I argued against it for more reasons long ago and I'm against it for the same reasons now.

We can give different characters different ledgegrab ranges. There are already differences in ledgegrab ranges in the characters, so it's just a matter of finding the right value in PSA and editing it. The characters that need a bigger ledgegrab range can retain some of their ledge magnetism. As it is now, though, everyone has a mario bros teleport, and there is no reason they all need it.

Hmmm.

I'm trying to think of an AT that could be used instead of ledge teching, but fulfill the same basic purpose, in that it keeps some moves from being too good at edgeguarding.

I don't know, ledge teching just feels glitchy and wrong, you're teching something in the opposite direction of the way you were hit......but that's not to say that's enough to not put something in the game, I also just don't like how if you can ledge tech properly you will never get edgeguarded by certain moves, which in turn nerfs the move.

Although, what if we made it so ledge techs actually sent you farther away than usual, but also higher so you could just reattempt to recover and the opponent would have a second chance but above the stage instead of near the ledge. I think that would be good.

Like shell said, it's a perfectly logical progression of SDI and teching. When you're hit, you're put in hitlag before you're sent flying, allowing you to SDI toward the ledge and then tech it. You could probably argue that it was an exploit or an oversight in melee (since sakurai put in a way to stop it from happening in brawl), but not a glitch. This happens to be an exploit that added to the game and the smash community likes, so I don't see why we shouldn't bring it back.

The whole point is I think the person on the stage should still have another go at edgeguarding, just from higher up off the stage. In other words the person should still be at an advantage since they did manage to hit the other person while they were recovering.

Uh... what? If you ledgetech, you fall past the ledge (or at least you should when we're done with this). Being below the ledge means you have less options to recover, and even though you did successfully ledgetech, the foe still has a positional advantage. If you walljumptech, you're now above the level and have more options to recover (this is most notable with fox/falco sideBs), but since you're being launched away from the stage when you do this, the edgeguarder still has the positional advantage. We don't need to change anything about techs or walljumptechs. We just need to make them possible to do by SDIing into a wall when being hit away.

COMPROMISE APPROACHING!

Make edge teching put you far enough away from the ledge so you won't grab it.

As long as that involves shortening the ledgegrab range, it sounds like a good goal to aim for.

Ledgeteching will not make the edge game more fun, because as it is right now, 90% of edgeguards happen outside of the ledgegrab range, and therefore outside of SDI range.

I think decreasing the edge-grab range should be done before we start thinking about ledge teching.

Ledgeteching and a smaller ledgegrab range are not mutually exclusive. The whole purpose of implementing either one rests on the other.

 

[kupo15]

except for the part where you wall tech and grab the ledge backward...

Do you even read anything anyone says or even think that, I don't know, we can HACK this game? Your post changes nothing when we can make it so that this doesn't happen

COMPROMISE APPROACHING!

Make edge teching put you far enough away from the ledge so you won't grab it.

See above (anger not towards you)

I still say ledge grab range is fine. It has too many uses in recovery. I think Snake would probably be hurt the most without suction ledges to use for airdodge/hugging the ledge. I argued against it for more reasons long ago and I'm against it for the same reasons now.

Errrr....right.....


___________________
______________________

Man, aren't there a lot of pansies running wild?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, as a sheik player, I actually wouldn't want to see her bair have reversible knockback. It's actually very useful the way it is.

I see... but it would be useful for Peach's fair. It would make reverse dair combos actually have a use without really "buffing" anything. Are any other moves like this being looked at?

 

[Blank Mauser]

In my opinion, ledge games that happen with people sitting on the edge doing a move like Dsmash etc. shouldn't even be happening in high level play.

I think the ledge game is fine right now, suction ledges in all. There are plenty of things suction ledges play a role in preserving, and its not worth changing for ledgeteching which would hardly be seen much. Teching meteors, stage spikes etc. are all already possible.

Edit: Unless this ledgeteching is like, crazy lenient and people are going to be stage teching Fsmashes with proper timing. Then maybe I'd open up more.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I agree with Mauser. And I think recovering well his hard enough as is.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Except the fact that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" doesn't apply here. All we do is test changes. You need to not be so adamant at TRYING THINGS OUT. That is the WHOLE PURPOSE of this BUILD. If the majority likes it, it stays. If not, we tweak it or remove it. It's that simple, really.

 

[CloneHat]

That raises a question.

Do we want to keep moves that hit below (most, if not all) grab ranges? Ones that REQUIRE ledge teching? I don't think so.

 

[thesage]

Can get up attack not **** shields so much?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

That raises a question.

Do we want to keep moves that hit below (most, if not all) grab ranges? Ones that REQUIRE ledge teching? I don't think so.

If you removed those, wouldn't **** over, like, ninety percent of all down smashes in the game? Sorry if I misinterpreted this, but did I hear that you wanted to edit moves that hit inside the ledgegrab range so that they don't?

 

[Blank Mauser]

There really aren't many, if any at all, that reach past suction ledges. You're better off dropping down with a quick aerial if you want to make them tech so bad.

 

[CloneHat]

I've no intention of ****ing over anything, but if there are moves that hit inside the ledge grab range, then people will be ALWAYS be able to hit someone before they grab the ledge, instead of punishing missed sweetspots.

I'm asking people they're opinion on what should be done.

 

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, ledge games that happen with people sitting on the edge doing a move like Dsmash etc. shouldn't even be happening in high level play.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm why? Down smash should be a perfectly legitimate form of edgeguarding. Snap ledges impedes competitive edgeguarding. You impede competitive edgeguarding. You also seemingly suck at this game

I think the ledge game is fine right now, suction ledges in all. There are plenty of things suction ledges play a role in preserving

What in the world does it preserve other than uncompetitive vBrawl silliness that no one wants except you for some unjustified reason?

its not worth changing for ledgeteching which would hardly be seen much.

How bad are you at this game...? ledge teching was everywhere in melee. OMG IM COMPARING BRAWL+ TO MELEE :O :O :O :O

Edit: Unless this ledgeteching is like, crazy lenient and people are going to be stage teching Fsmashes with proper timing. Then maybe I'd open up more.

Why would it be crazy lenient? That is backwards thinking, vBrawl thinking. We're trying to make things more conducive to (l)edgeguard. If we remove auto snaps, it's easier to edgeguard. However, if the player adapts, they can tech, and it becomes a better rock-paper-scissors.

 

[thesage]

Ledgeteching in melee is pretty easy once you practice it. Just hold towards the stage and press R a little before you get hit.

 

[leafgreen386]

There being attacks that can hit below the ledgegrab range isn't really an issue. In fact, it's the whole purpose of ledgeteching. It prevents such moves from being OP. Now, when there are moves can hit below the ledge so far that you can't ledgetech them without multiple SDIs, then that's something that needs to be looked at. Or if the move is easy to repeat over and over again against a foe and not give them a chance to make it back, lasting until you or (more likely) them simply screw up. Those are the moves that would need to be looked at.

edit: thesage, that only works until medium-high percents. After that, your ASDI isn't enough to overcome the first frame of knockback, and you have to use SDI.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

There being attacks that can hit below the ledgegrab range isn't really an issue. In fact, it's the whole purpose of ledgeteching. It prevents such moves from being OP. Now, when there are moves can hit below the ledge so far that you can't ledgetech them without multiple SDIs, then that's something that needs to be looked at. Or if the move is easy to repeat over and over again against a foe and not give them a chance to make it back, lasting until you or (more likely) them simply screw up. Those are the moves that would need to be looked at.

edit: thesage, that only works until medium-high percents. After that, your ASDI isn't enough to overcome the first frame of knockback, and you have to use SDI.

Peach's down smash was like that in melee (a.k.a way OP on ledges). But it's not like that in Brawl+, and it's the only move that I can think of that would be like that, so.... yeah.....

 

[CloneHat]

There being attacks that can hit below the ledgegrab range isn't really an issue. In fact, it's the whole purpose of ledgeteching. It prevents such moves from being OP. Now, when there are moves can hit below the ledge so far that you can't ledgetech them without multiple SDIs, then that's something that needs to be looked at. Or if the move is easy to repeat over and over again against a foe and not give them a chance to make it back, lasting until you or (more likely) them simply screw up. Those are the moves that would need to be looked at.

Nicely put!

Does Marth's dtilt still work as good as in Melee? Cause if so... that's an issue.

I'm going to bed, good night.

 

[leafgreen386]

Peach's down smash was like that in melee (a.k.a way OP on ledges). But it's not like that in Brawl+, and it's the only move that I can think of that would be like that, so.... yeah.....

Uh... peach's dsmash was horribly easy to deal with lol. Marth's sword beats it before he even gets into range to be hit and the spacies could just walljumptech -> sideB through her. The move was probably one of the easiest moves in the game to ledgetech.

Nicely put!

Does Marth's dtilt still work as good as in Melee? Cause if so... that's an issue.

I'm going to bed, good night.

I don't think his dtilt hits as far below the stage in brawl as it did in melee, but it might still be fast enough to be a problem move if you can't sweetspot through it.

 

[Magus420]

Uh... peach's dsmash was horribly easy to deal with lol. Marth's sword beats it before he even gets into range to be hit and the spacies could just walljumptech -> sideB through her. The move was probably one of the easiest moves in the game to ledgetech.

If you hit with the 1st hit the last hit of the d-smash will usually hit them after the invincibility ends from the tech (need to be close to the edge to catch a walljump tech). You can do the same with Sheik's d-smash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twqSNmMYjRc#t=6m04s

...Also xD at the clip directly after it of me walltechjump d-airing with Ganon

 

[cubaisdeath]

anyone else realize how broken MK/Kirby team is?