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[Dantarion]

I think its one of those things thats only really apparent once the autosnapping is turned off. Its almost like the move hits where ganon would be if the stage wasn't there

 

[Valuno]

Yeah, it's hitbox is really not that big, it's a little bigger than what it looks like, but it still shouldn't be able to outrange a properly spaced fsmash from marth.

 

[PWNZ3r0]

Yeah, it's hitbox is really not that big, it's a little bigger than what it looks like, but it still shouldn't be able to outrange a properly spaced fsmash from marth.

How did you make your sig?

 

[Deleted member]

I like ledge teching. It makes it so recoveries aren't so monotonous, like there's a set thing you have to do.

Kind of like l-canceling???

Not that I don't want l-canceling in B+. I just seem to remember you were against it, you hypocrite.

 

[MK26]

What no ASL accomplishes is that both the edgeguarder and the edgeguarded must think in order to come out on top...you cant spam an attack onstage and expect to edgeguard someone who sweetspots right (so dont touch the sweetspot range), yet going offstage to attack puts the opponent in a precarious position...do you go for the stage, expecting an edgeguard, or do you go for the ledge, expecting an attack and hoping for a counterattack? SDI ledgetech (AT that made no sense) isnt needed because you dont deserve to survive if you fail to sweetspot and/or the opponent predicts you'll land on the stage.

Autosweetspot on hit is probably a throwback to a correction of Melee's problem where you could lightshield edgehog a Marth that otherwise sweetspotted the ledge correctly. Of course, this implies the ability to lightshield, but we've figured out that Brawl does read the shoulder buttons' analog functions, haven't we? Being able to grab the ledge backward prevents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iby0D5PkMDo#t=4m38s from happening, even if we do add in ledgeteching. Tethers grabbing ledges and not walls suddenly becomes a positive once normal edgegrabs arent as quick and safe.

My point is that there are no inconsistencies in Brawl's ledge game once you factor in NASL. Everything makes sense in the larger scheme of things. Because of these things, and my reading somewhere (i think it was from that first Brawl demo at E3) that Brawl was originally much closer to Melee, with CC'ing etc., that I think Brawl was originally coded without autosweetspotting ledges. ASL was added in later, and now the NASL code doesnt abolish the entire autosweetspot system, but rather it peels back the layer of programming added on to reveal the original, sweetspot-less edge game.

It all makes sense: why would this code only affect aimable up-bs going up, and not sideways or down? Why do side-bs still autosweetspot? This fits into the 'no inconsistencies' NASL creates. An edgegrab is beaten by an edgehog, which is gotten around by going onto the stage, which is beaten by smashing them away again, which is gotten around by...an edgegrab. NASL creates a balance between the guarder and the guarded (barring an offensive gimp that knocks a player out of range of the ledge), and messing with it in any way will mutilate this balance.

Jigglypuff, Wolf, and TL sorta go against the grain here, but that may be because they were added late in development (which everything we've seen points to - having no part in the SSE, being last in Character ID order, TL's Dsmash and Wolf's side-b), perhaps after ASL was added in.

The conspiracy theory thing (which, I admit, was stupid to bring up) might not be true, but the fact is that if we want to change the sweetspot range, or allow ledgeteching, or alter Brawl's edge game in any other way, we might as well change it completely. It isnt the same as Melee's, and it may not be as tech-skill-intensive as Melee's, but it works perfectly for Brawl+ the way it is.

EDIT: wooo. did not expect it to get that long. congrats on reading all the way down here.

 

[CloneHat]

Woops, unclear sentence structure by me. I'm saying I don't like seeing the same recovery approach risk-free over and over again. I didn't mean that ledge teching was what you had to do every time, over and over again. (pointless, my l-cancel argument).

I guess I might sound kind of like a hypocrite, but I think l cancel is vastly different from ledge teching, it's uhhhh... hmmmm... well, it's hard to say. L cancel is basically just extra button presses, while edge teching is more like a technique. My argument's not very strong, but the bottom line is...

Edge teching is awesome.


EDIT: Sweetspotting should still be possible, but a lot harder. That way people can mix things up/edge game is deeper in general.

 

[iLink]

Edge teching is awesome.

You won me over

 

[Valuno]

Edge teching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZDykY4eoC8

What do you call this at 0:39? Looks like edge teching to me...

 

[Deleted member]

Woops, unclear sentence structure by me. I'm saying I don't like seeing the same recovery approach risk-free over and over again. I didn't mean that ledge teching was what you had to do every time, over and over again. (pointless, my l-cancel argument).

I guess I might sound kind of like a hypocrite, but I think l cancel is vastly different from ledge teching, it's uhhhh... hmmmm... well, it's hard to say. L cancel is basically just extra button presses, while edge teching is more like a technique. My argument's not very strong, but the bottom line is...

Edge teching is awesome.


EDIT: Sweetspotting should still be possible, but a lot harder. That way people can mix things up/edge game is deeper in general.

i don't wanna derail this thread with l-cancel stuff (some most people are stubborn) but just know your argument holds about as much water as a pasta strainer

 

[CloneHat]

Edge teching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZDykY4eoC8

What do you call this at 0:39? Looks like edge teching to me...

That is some sexy teching off a ledge! But as I understand, the technique "ledge teching" is when you DI into the ledge and tech the KB of the blow. It worked better in Melee, due to increased *something* DI, which moved your character a small amount in the direction you were holding if you were hit.

In Brawl, there's less of it, and it's also been impossible to make a collision with the wall unless you're hit into it (doesn't work if you're hit away).

and @DLRE1: Don't worry. I know it sucks, I'm not up to arguing right now.

 

[VietGeek]

Yeah you can do ledgeteching now that soft-wall collisions (directly where ledge grab would be) are CAM'd to be hard-wall collisions (those you can naturally tech).

However it seems to not be a true recreation of SDI'd ledgetechs (SDI-ing a Marth fsmash into a wall even though it sends out; although you CAN already do this on slanted stages since it hits kinda up and away due to the special angle 20).

TL;DR: *shrug* I don't fully understand the concept myself, but true ledgeteching has not yet been instated. =V

 

[Revven]

The thing I'm worried about when you remove Side B autosnaps for some characters (not all, most I reckon would be fine) they may act a little strange, as is some Up Bs acted strange when we removed AS from them. What Side Bs am I thinking about? Meta Knight's... Falcon's... Ganondorf's.... I'm afraid that if we removed AS, Falcon and Ganon would lose a viable horizontal recovery and when MK loses it, his Drill Rush is just going to keep drilling into the edge for ages... as it is it's already impossible to hit him out of it. I can't imagine what it would be like for the edgeguarder. At the same time, MK may no longer be able to Side B safely to the ledge as if Drill Rush ends, he would hop backwards and not grab the ledge...

Who knows what would happen really, I'm up for trying it if we can.

 

[kupo15]

HOLY **** THIS POST IS MUCH BIGGER THAN I THOUGHT!

What no ASL accomplishes is that both the edgeguarder and the edgeguarded must think in order to come out on top...you cant spam an attack onstage and expect to edgeguard someone who sweetspots right (so dont touch the sweetspot range),

So how does this prove that the range doesn't need to be touched? You basically just defined what NASL does and somehow that connects to why the ledge grab range is ok. What if the grab range was 4x bigger than it is now? What you just described would also be true as well if the grab range was 4x bigger.

SDI ledgetech (AT that made no sense) isnt needed because you dont deserve to survive if you fail to sweetspot and/or the opponent predicts you'll land on the stage

So its either you get it right or you die? No in between? With a reduced ledge range, more edge guarding tactics work. Also, some edge guarding tactics are so much better than others that without this AT, it would be on the verge of being broken. An example in melee is how Marth could down tilt through the stage which makes sweet spotting impossible.

Captain falcon is a character that has to swing around before he can grab the ledge which means that its impossible for him to safely sweet spot like Doc can. Ledgeteching makes it so that edge guarding tactics are not as OP and so that it requires more skill via the edge guarder to successfully edge guard.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your hate for such a great AT.

Autosweetspot on hit is probably a throwback to a correction of Melee's problem where you could lightshield edgehog a Marth that otherwise sweetspotted the ledge correctly.

This was of course a broken tactic that is unfair and can't be countered at all not to mention the fact that AS on hit is a side effect of a glitchy NASL code. So you are completely wrong and once again showing us you don't know diddly-squat.

Being able to grab the ledge backward prevents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iby0D5PkMDo#t=4m38s from happening, even if we do add in ledgeteching.

Are you referring to the multiple ledge techs from doc? This is actually rather valid point I think how a ledge tech=a ledge grab due to reverse grabbing, however, this would never happen. As it stands, I am 99% positive that if you do a normal Vbrawl tech at the ledge, you will NOT grab the ledge after the "normal tech." So this point is moot

Tethers grabbing ledges and not walls suddenly becomes a positive once normal edgegrabs arent as quick and safe.

Well good for them. So what. You could Auto sweet spot in Melee as well and this didn't prove to be broken in the least. I do feel that the tether recovery mechanic could use a slight tweak but I won't go into that.

My point is that there are no inconsistencies in Brawl's ledge game once you factor in NASL. Everything makes sense in the larger scheme of things.

Uhhh, you lost me

Because of these things, and my reading somewhere (i think it was from that first Brawl demo at E3) that Brawl was originally much closer to Melee, with CC'ing etc., that I think Brawl was originally coded without autosweetspotting ledges. ASL was added in later, and now the NASL code doesnt abolish the entire autosweetspot system, but rather it peels back the layer of programming added on to reveal the original, sweetspot-less edge game.

Ok, so?

It all makes sense: why would this code only affect aimable up-bs going up, and not sideways or down? Why do side-bs still autosweetspot? This fits into the 'no inconsistencies' NASL creates.

It all makes sense: HAVE YOU COMPELTELY LOST YOUR MIND? Who ever said that this particular code reveals any truths at all? This code is merely a glitched code that doesn't work quite right. This code does NOT reveal anything about how the ledge programming was closer to E3 at all. It is nothing more than an attempt to give us what we asked for but it turns out pw couldn't quite figure out how to do it. There have been plenty of codes made in the past that had bugs in it that needed to be fixed unless you are telling me that is how it was originally coded to be or something.

An edgegrab is beaten by an edgehog, which is gotten around by going onto the stage or waiting for invincibility to wear off and attacking them, which is beaten by smashing them away again, which is gotten around by...an edgegrab.

Fixed. So are you saying this is the only way to edge guard?

NASL creates a balance between the guarder and the guarded (barring an offensive gimp that knocks a player out of range of the ledge), and messing with it in any way will mutilate this balance.

Are you serious? You make things too black and white.

Jigglypuff, Wolf, and TL sorta go against the grain here, but that may be because they were added late in development (which everything we've seen points to - having no part in the SSE, being last in Character ID order, TL's Dsmash and Wolf's side-b), perhaps after ASL was added in.

I am really confused here. What are you trying to prove other than the fact that these 3 characters might have been added late? (I find jiggs to be added late improbable but I'll go with it)

The conspiracy theory thing (which, I admit, was stupid to bring up) might not be true, but the fact is that if we want to change the sweetspot range, or allow ledgeteching, or alter Brawl's edge game in any other way, we might as well change it completely.

Well, we are completely changing the game so....

It isnt the same as Melee's, and it may not be as tech-skill-intensive as Melee's, but it works perfectly for Brawl+ the way it is.

But who says it couldn't be better? There is a profound difference in gameplay when your solution to the ledge game is a huge ledge range that takes not so much skill to grab, and a small ledge grab range with added ATs to make certain edge guarding tactis not broken due to the smaller ledge range.

I also fail to see how the ledge game can't work like it did in melee

I didn't mean that ledge teching was what you had to do every time, over and over again. (pointless, my l-cancel argument).

I guess I might sound kind of like a hypocrite, but I think l cancel is vastly different from ledge teching, it's uhhhh... hmmmm... well, it's hard to say. L cancel is basically just extra button presses, while edge teching is more like a technique. My argument's not very strong, but the bottom line is...

I too do not want to derail the thread with another l cancel argument, but its very similar because just like l canceling, there is no reason to not go for a ledge tech just in case you manage to get hit in the finger tips.

EDIT: Sweetspotting should still be possible, but a lot harder. That way people can mix things up/edge game is deeper in general.

I agree. This is how melee was.

Edge teching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZDykY4eoC8

What do you call this at 0:39? Looks like edge teching to me...

Sorry, that isn't ledge teching. Ledge teching is when you SDI into the ledge to force a collision with the wall to tech during hitlag. Ledge teching basically is being able to tech the ledge from moves that send you away from the stage.

What you just did was, you were able to DI towards the stage a tech during hitstun because that move kept you close to the stage. If you can ledge tech Marth's Fsmash or anything that sends you out, that is a ledge tech and its something that is impossible to do.


EDIT:
SMK, MK would still be able to drill rush AS if he angles it down before its too late. Falcon/ganon should still be able to grab the ledge after the arm swing.

 

[MK26]

So how does this prove that the range doesn't need to be touched? You basically just defined what NASL does and somehow that connects to why the ledge grab range is ok. What if the grab range was 4x bigger than it is now? What you just described would also be true as well if the grab range was 4x bigger.

We could have an argument on the correct size of the sweetspot range forever. And anyway, if it was 4x bigger, you could be within range of grabbing the edge but unable to knock an edgehogging opponent off the edge. Increasing it past a certain point changes nothing.

So its either you get it right or you die? No in between? With a reduced ledge range, more edge guarding tactics work. Also, some edge guarding tactics are so much better than others that without this AT, it would be on the verge of being broken. An example in melee is how Marth could down tilt through the stage which makes sweet spotting impossible.

Captain falcon is a character that has to swing around before he can grab the ledge which means that its impossible for him to safely sweet spot like Doc can. Ledgeteching makes it so that edge guarding tactics are not as OP and so that it requires more skill via the edge guarder to successfully edge guard.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your hate for such a great AT.

Does there need to be an in-between? DI up and in. There's your in-between. Try again next time.

Every Melee example you gave can be solved through either small range+ledgetech, or large range. I personally don't think Brawl needs option 1 to work.

This was of course a broken tactic that is unfair and can't be countered at all not to mention the fact that AS on hit is a side effect of a glitchy NASL code. So you are completely wrong and once again showing us you don't know diddly-squat.

-__-

Ok, so?

It's a theory. Peeling back the layers. Might not be a glitch...ugh, there's no point in saying it again.

Are you referring to the multiple ledge techs from doc? This is actually rather valid point I think how a ledge tech=a ledge grab due to reverse grabbing, however, this would never happen. As it stands, I am 99% positive that if you do a normal Vbrawl tech at the ledge, you will NOT grab the ledge after the "normal tech." So this point is moot

Except it isn't, because you can do a normal tech and grab the ledge.

Uhhh, you lost me

again, it's a theory.

It all makes sense: HAVE YOU COMPELTELY LOST YOUR MIND?

I must admit, i lol'd

Who ever said that this particular code reveals any truths at all? This code is merely a glitched code that doesn't work quite right. This code does NOT reveal anything about how the ledge programming was closer to E3 at all. It is nothing more than an attempt to give us what we asked for but it turns out pw couldn't quite figure out how to do it. There have been plenty of codes made in the past that had bugs in it that needed to be fixed unless you are telling me that is how it was originally coded to be or something.

So...Firefox shouldn't sweetspot going down? Sheik's up-b shouldn't sweetspot at the end of the first segment? Cape shouldn't sweetspot halfway through the move? It seems like all the right moves didn't get affected by NASL. Pretty good for a code that he 'couldn't figure out'.

Fixed. So are you saying this is the only way to edge guard?
Are you serious? You make things too black and white.

Yes, it's an oversimplification. No, neither character can abuse anything to make the edge game inordinately in their favour. So, it works. Don't fix what ain't broken, right?

I am really confused here. What are you trying to prove other than the fact that these 3 characters might have been added late? (I find jiggs to be added late improbable but I'll go with it)

It's a theory that rests on a theory. Not gonna go there. But why would jiggs be after most of the new Brawl entrants on the character ID list, when every other character there is ordered by original appearance on CSS from original game? Puff would logically be character 0B, not 23 (after both the Pokemon series' new entrants). Wolf and TL are directly after her as well...

Well, we are completely changing the game so....But who says it couldn't be better? There is a profound difference in gameplay when your solution to the ledge game is a huge ledge range that takes not so much skill to grab, and a small ledge grab range with added ATs to make certain edge guarding tactis not broken due to the smaller ledge range.

The thing with your system is that the guarder is too safe. Spacing for a tipper fsmash requires no thought. On the other hand, having to jump out and attack forces you to fear a counter and attack wisely. It's also more rewarding than a system where you could get a hit off because your opponent messed up, but he can press a button to negate all knockback and grab the ledge that he failed to get in the first place.

I also fail to see how the ledge game can't work like it did in melee

Make it work like it did in 64 too.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I agree w/MK that the no sweetspots code works rather well for how quickly it was put together. It must have been in the game at one point as it is right now. I believe that spunit (was it spunit?) just happened upon the switch which turned it on (or off, in this case).

 

[leafgreen386]

So...Firefox shouldn't sweetspot going down? Sheik's up-b shouldn't sweetspot at the end of the first segment? Cape shouldn't sweetspot halfway through the move? It seems like all the right moves didn't get affected by NASL. Pretty good for a code that he 'couldn't figure out'.

Here's what you fail to understand: We wanted a code to do something. We asked a coder to make it. He made it to the best of his ability. The end. There is no hidden meaning. It's not peeling back new code that was added after E4A. No. It was designed specifically to stop a character from sweetspotting if their vertical position increased from one frame to the next. Otherwise, the move would be allowed to sweetspot. This is why sideBs can still autosweetspot, and why moves still autosweetspot on hit. It has nothing to do with how the game was earlier in development, and even if it does, it's by coincidence, and not because the code was targeting some specific new implementation.

 

[MK26]

Here's what you fail to understand: We wanted a code to do something. We asked a coder to make it. He made it to the best of his ability. The end. There is no hidden meaning. It's not peeling back new code that was added after E4A. No. It was designed specifically to stop a character from sweetspotting if their vertical position increased from one frame to the next. Otherwise, the move would be allowed to sweetspot. This is why sideBs can still autosweetspot, and why moves still autosweetspot on hit. It has nothing to do with how the game was earlier in development, and even if it does, it's by coincidence, and not because the code was targeting some specific new implementation.

:/ My whole point is that it's by coincidence :/

And it failed for Jiggs' and Wolf's side-b, as well as Ness', Lucas', and Lucario's up-b? Is that just a code deficiency?

Wait...if we set hitlag to 0, would up-bs stop autosweetspotting on hit?

 

[kupo15]

Every Melee example you gave can be solved through either small range+ledgetech, or large range. I personally don't think Brawl needs option 1 to work.

This is the debate in its simplest form. Yes, I agree that both options are valid ways to solve the problem, however most feel that option 1 is what will enhance the game more than option 2.

Except it isn't, because you can do a normal tech and grab the ledge.

Maybe that is true but with PSA, I see no reason why we can't add a small timer after wall techs that disables ledge grabbing. The game already does this when you let go from the ledge anyway.

Yes, it's an oversimplification. No, neither character can abuse anything to make the edge game inordinately in their favour. So, it works. Don't fix what ain't broken, right?

There is a lot of fixes made to the game that technically can be considered "don't fix what ain't broken" but the fact is that most if not all Vbrawl mechanics could be improved and if something can be improved, why not?

It's a theory that rests on a theory. Not gonna go there. But why would jiggs be after most of the new Brawl entrants on the character ID list, when every other character there is ordered by original appearance on CSS from original game? Puff would logically be character 0B, not 23 (after both the Pokemon series' new entrants). Wolf and TL are directly after her as well...

Dunno but who cares? I don't

The thing with your system is that the guarder is too safe. Spacing for a tipper fsmash requires no thought. On the other hand, having to jump out and attack forces you to fear a counter and attack wisely. It's also more rewarding than a system where you could get a hit off because your opponent messed up, but he can press a button to negate all knockback and grab the ledge that he failed to get in the first place.

You make it seem as if you can edge guard 100% by camping on the ledge the entire time. Well, the truth is, you can't, not even in melee. In melee, depending on the situation, if you didn't go out there, you missed the edge guard. It was entirely dependent on how your opponent recovered and you could never camp the ledge with a well spaced tipped Fsmash and expect to edge guard all the time.

Also, did you know that you can't ledge tech everything? You can't SDI ledge tech weak hits that didn't put you in tumble so you can't always rely on ledge teching to make it back. Some tactics included mindgaming a weak hit so that you couldn't ledge tech.

Make it work like it did in 64 too.

Funny you mention 64. Did you know that 64 also had a mechanic to try and save you from a missed sweet spot?

:/ My whole point is that it's by coincidence :/

coincidences prove nothing

And it failed for Jiggs' and Wolf's side-b, as well as Ness', Lucas', and Lucario's up-b? Is that just a code deficiency?

Yes it is. I was telling Pw of the problem and he was having some trouble fixing it. I would have the PM if GSC allowed me too keep more than 50 PMs.

I believe that spunit (was it spunit?) just happened upon the switch which turned it on (or off, in this case).

Wait...if we set hitlag to 0, would up-bs stop autosweetspotting on hit?

No jiang and probably Mk26. Pw made his own method by utilizing the coordinate system in the game. The code essentially compares the Y coordinate of the character and if the change in Y is negative, then you grab the ledge. He may not have taken hitlag into effect where you Y difference is 0.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

TNo jiang and probably Mk26. Pw made his own method by utilizing the coordinate system in the game. The code essentially compares the Y coordinate of the character and if the change in Y is negative, then you grab the ledge. He may not have taken hitlag into effect where you Y difference is 0.

and he manually assigned this y coordinate for each character? because god knows every character snaps at different distances. and if so, he did this all in.. 7 lines?

No Auto Sweetspotting [Phantom Wings, spunit262] (7 lines)
C27812B0 00000006
2C04000A 40A20020
8181003C 816C0018
C00B0010 C02B001C
FC000840 40A10008
38000000 5400CFFF
60000000 00000000

 

[timothyung]

I believe that the code should be fixed that you cannot sweetspot the ledge after hitlag, and side Bs which cannot go upwards should have their AS-able frame window reworked.

 

[Shadic]

Hitlag is the reason why moves like Link's UpB autosnap if you hit somebody in the middle of them, right?

If so, I actually like that. It rewards you for hitting somebody while recovering.

 

[timothyung]

Hitlag is the reason why moves like Link's UpB autosnap if you hit somebody in the middle of them, right?

If so, I actually like that. It rewards you for hitting somebody while recovering.

Hmm no. It's bad. You can AS even if you hit a shield, which shouldn't happen. When you hit somebody, your reward is that you deal damage and KB, but not being able to AS.

And I think Ganon's utilt needs to be looked over again. It was already a decent move before being cancel-able.
Only being able to cancel into a shield might be OK, or simply remove the change.

 

[Nybb]

and he manually assigned this y coordinate for each character? because god knows every character snaps at different distances. and if so, he did this all in.. 7 lines?

No Auto Sweetspotting [Phantom Wings, spunit262] (7 lines)
C27812B0 00000006
2C04000A 40A20020
8181003C 816C0018
C00B0010 C02B001C
FC000840 40A10008
38000000 5400CFFF
60000000 00000000

Individual snap distances don't necessarily have anything to do with this code. All this probably does is, whenever the game would normally try to snap you to a ledge, it instead goes to this code and does a branch...if the character is moving upwards from a B move, the snap fails; otherwise it returns to the normal procedure of snapping to the edge.

Although for the record, it's feasible to code snap distances in 7 lines. If there were, say, 4 possible ranges of ledge snap (i.e. longest, long, short, shortest), it would only take 2 bits to encode this data for each character. Each hex digit represents 4 bits. 40 characters = 80 bits of data = 20 hex digits = less than a line and a half of hex code. If there were 8 possible ranges, that would be 40 * 3 bits = 120 bits of data = 30 hex digits which is still less than 2 lines out of 7.

Sorry, CSC geek coming out. The point is that whether each character's snap distance is involved in this code or not is irrelevant. There is absolutely no reason to assume that this code somehow magically reverts the game to a prior version as far as the ledge mechanics are concerned. And therefore, using said assumption to defend the current ledge stuff is not valid.


Personally, I think that ledgeteching is a little superfluous, although the current ledge snap range is pretty stupid. Would there be any problem with just decreasing the snap range to something like half of the current range to fix that annoyance without adding unnecessary Melee ATs?

 

[Shadic]

I think 1/2 is too much of a game changer. If you have to touch it, make it 3/4ths.

 

[MK26]

This is the debate in its simplest form. Yes, I agree that both options are valid ways to solve the problem, however most feel that option 1 is what will enhance the game more than option 2.

Maybe that is true but with PSA, I see no reason why we can't add a small timer after wall techs that disables ledge grabbing. The game already does this when you let go from the ledge anyway.

What can I say to this? It's a difference of opinion. I can see the positives of a system like this. Didn't I say that if we should change part of the ledge game, we should go all out?

There is a lot of fixes made to the game that technically can be considered "don't fix what ain't broken" but the fact is that most if not all Vbrawl mechanics could be improved and if something can be improved, why not?

Examples?

You make it seem as if you can edge guard 100% by camping on the ledge the entire time. Well, the truth is, you can't, not even in melee. In melee, depending on the situation, if you didn't go out there, you missed the edge guard. It was entirely dependent on how your opponent recovered and you could never camp the ledge with a well spaced tipped Fsmash and expect to edge guard all the time.

My point is that you shouldn't be able to camp the ledge at all, unless your opponent misses the sweetspot. That's my rationale for not touching the sweetspot range - I think that "a perfect sweetspot should force the guarder to attack actively, even if he had a perfect on-stage defense", not "a perfect on-stage defense should force the returning character to try again, even if he had a perfect sweetspot". In other words, the tie goes to the runner.

Also, did you know that you can't ledge tech everything? You can't SDI ledge tech weak hits that didn't put you in tumble so you can't always rely on ledge teching to make it back. Some tactics included mindgaming a weak hit so that you couldn't ledge tech.

No I did not. Doesn't really have much to do with everything, but I suppose it shows the niceties of the system...

Funny you mention 64. Did you know that 64 also had a mechanic to try and save you from a missed sweet spot?

And why were there missed sweetspots? Because the ledge range was so **** small! Come to think about it, making something like "SDI ledgetech in hitlag forces a hard hit off the wall", the same way simply SDI'ing into the wall in 64 works, would be really cool.

I think 1/2 is too much of a game changer. If you have to touch it, make it 3/4ths.

We probably should get a working ledge grab range code before we start discussing what should or shouldn't work...try it before you say no (yes, that also applies to any and all edge game tweaks, but not to NAT )

 

[Alphatron]

Wow, its that big? That could use some adjusting.

Kinda like Snake's invisible knee. No thanks man, Ganon is already edgeguarded easily enough. I've traded hits with that UpB with an onstage Ness meteor smash. It's no big deal.

 

[timothyung]

___Marf_____________
\O<-GANON HAND
\__________________ <-the stage

That's why it can hit Marth

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Wow, some big*** posts here after I fell asleep....


I'll just say that I generally with kupo.

and I'd like the smaller ledgegrab range as well. It would make recoveries not so EZ mode with jigglypuff. Jigglypuff would actually have to use to her jumps wisely, and she couldn't just RP back to the stage (most of the time)

 

[CloneHat]

Oh great. We're back in one of these arguments. Half the people want something new, the other half is in anti-Melee/anti-AT mode.

Let's just try it out! Nightly Builds are being slightly over-thought in my opinion, so only unanimous ideas are tested, and the builds usually turn out to just be changed into the Official Plussery.

Lets try out ledge teching and get some feedback.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

yeah, and smaller ledge grab range and stuff. I mean, if we like it, we keep it. If we don't like it, we either remove it or tweak it so that we DO like it. I mean, I thought the nightly builds was supposed to be a build that tests changes, but a lot of times it takes like 20 hardcore mains of a character just to convince the WBR to test something out.

 

[kupo15]

Hitlag is the reason why moves like Link's UpB autosnap if you hit somebody in the middle of them, right?

If so, I actually like that. It rewards you for hitting somebody while recovering.

Wrong. That shouldn't happen at all. There is no valid reason why your reward should be an AS if you hit a shield. If you think it is, then you are flat out denying another edge guarding tactic. If I notice that you are going to miss your sweetspot, I can purposely shield your attack so that way I can punish (melee had the addition of choosing to CC the attack and counter attack)

What you like is the game arbitrarily limiting the edge guarders options for no reason whatsoever.

I think 1/2 is too much of a game changer. If you have to touch it, make it 3/4ths.

Maybe, we have to test it out

My point is that you shouldn't be able to camp the ledge at all, unless your opponent misses the sweetspot.

That is what sweet spotting is and what you fail to realize, despite the fact that I just mentioned this last post, is that this is how Melee's ledges were designed to be, except they messed up with giving characters moves that attack below sweet spot like Marths dtilt.

That's my rationale for not touching the sweetspot range - I think that "a perfect sweetspot should force the guarder to attack actively, even if he had a perfect on-stage defense", not "a perfect on-stage defense should force the returning character to try again, even if he had a perfect sweetspot". In other words, the tie goes to the runner.

Facepalm. Reducing the ledge grab range does not mean that it will be impossible to sweet spot or that what you described won't happen. You can have what you just described with a smaller ledge grab range unless you reduce it too much. The trick is to test the ranges so that the range is small without sweet spotting be impossible.

And why were there missed sweetspots? Because the ledge range was so **** small! Come to think about it, making something like "SDI ledgetech in hitlag forces a hard hit off the wall", the same way simply SDI'ing into the wall in 64 works, would be really cool.

Yes, the ranges on 64 ledges were way too small and just about everyone agrees. 64s were too small, Brawl's are too large, and melee has the perfect balance.

We probably should get a working ledge grab range code before we start discussing what should or shouldn't work...try it before you say no (yes, that also applies to any and all edge game tweaks,

Yea

but not to NAT )

HEY!

 

[WheelOfFish]

The only reason I'm against decreasing the ledge grab range is because a lot of the edges in Brawl are not nearly as forgiving (ie: FD and Smashville). This would SUCK for Diddy Kong and spacies.

 

[kupo15]

The only reason I'm against decreasing the ledge grab range is because a lot of the edges in Brawl are not nearly as forgiving (ie: FD and Smashville). This would SUCK for Diddy Kong and spacies.

Not as forgiving as what? How is Smashville one of them and how is FD any different than Melee BF? (its actually better) I'm confused by what the problem is.

Also, I am almost positive that ledge range is doable through PSA, someone just needs to find it.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I guess you're right, Melee BF had screwed up ledges too. I'm just too used to Brawl's easy ledges lol. Strangely I have no trouble with Melee's edges... though Falco and Marth have big sweetspots and I don't really play as anyone else. If the edge sweetspots in Brawl+ were as big as theirs, I'd have no problem. I think it's a change worth testing either way.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

the worst ledge to me is lylat+ps2. i agree for if you hit someone while recovering you should get the auto snap, but none if you hit a shield.

 

[timothyung]

You shouldn't auto snap in any situation >.>
You can deal the damage, but not AS. It's just stupid

 

[CloneHat]

the worst ledge to me is lylat+ps2. i agree for if you hit someone while recovering you should get the auto snap, but none if you hit a shield.

I think PS1 ledges are DESIGNED to kill you.

I don't agree with the auto snap. Hitting someone is just poor sweetspotting, and it ruins the technique of sacrificing damage/KB to get a hit.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

You shouldn't auto snap in any situation >.>
You can deal the damage, but not AS. It's just stupid

i feel ya, when i first found out about it, it was pretty cool. i mean more options is a good thing but if it went i wouldnt really be depressed lol

 

[kupo15]

the worst ledge to me is lylat+ps2. i agree for if you hit someone while recovering you should get the auto snap, but none if you hit a shield.

I don't agree with Auto snapping at all except from above. There is no reason why the edge guarder must walk on eggshells that much when trying to edge guard. There is no reason for why the game must help the player returning so much. The punishment on getting hit while trying to edge guard should be equal to the move he is getting hit with and that's it. If you manage to still be able to effectively edge guard after getting hit by the move, then that was a poor choice/execution on the returning player and its not unfair in any way.

And FYI, this auto snapping doesn't just happen when your trying to edge guard on stage. If both players are trying to recover from below and one uses their up b, they will auto snap which interrupts the move awkwardly. Samus is the biggest pain because you get hit and expect to get hit with all the hitboxes before you can try to recover but it stops after one and you fall because you were caught off guard by the glitchy code. Its really ********.

 

[timothyung]

You know, in Brawl+, you can actually auto sweetspot PS1's ledge with Marth, by aiming at a little bit behind the ledge. I believe it can be done by several other characters, too. You will be stopped by the platform, but ends up grabbing the ledge.