Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[kupo15]

Oh wow. I was looking through my vids trying to find an example and this includes both reasons why Footstooling and the auto snap code as is is ******** at the same exact time! I did not attempt a footstool.

Yea, the beginning of the match is ****ty but pay no attention to that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01Yx0Rnswco (1:03)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

lol that's an old codeset...

anyways, I like footstooling.

although Auto Snap is stupid.

+1 for improving footstooling, not removing it

-1 for keeping auto snaps on upward angled side bs and stuff

 

[leafgreen386]

You know, in Brawl+, you can actually auto sweetspot PS1's ledge with Marth, by aiming at a little bit behind the ledge. I believe it can be done by several other characters, too. You will be stopped by the platform, but ends up grabbing the ledge.

I'm not too surprised. Simply due to the way the code works... the bottom is flat, and the ledges are right there, so your upward momentum gets killed by the stage, and since you don't rise from one frame to the next, you autosweetspot.

Now do people believe me when I say the code is glitchy and didn't act exactly as we intended when it was implemented?

 

[timothyung]

We can't do much to the code itself, except for removing the ability to snap the ledge after hitlag. Then we should edit the AS-able window itself.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think ledge grab range should be decreased, but I don't think there should be ledge teching. I'm sure we could come up with a new, original AT instead of using a Melee one.
But really, I've seen captain falcon grab the edge from so far away, it's ridiculous. Even if we don't add a new technique, it needs to at least be decreased a bit.

 

[Shadic]

Hitlag is the reason why moves like Link's UpB autosnap if you hit somebody in the middle of them, right?
If so, I actually like that. It rewards you for hitting somebody while recovering.

Wrong. That shouldn't happen at all

Excuse me? I wasn't aware my opinion on something was incorrect.

 

[timothyung]

Or you can see the response as "I don't like that"

 

[CloneHat]

FFF ignore post

 

[Alphatron]

The jesus fingers are a bit ridiculous on most of the cast. Rising pound sweetspot looks silly even in vbrawl.

That being said, should you guys go ahead and change things, the characters who have crap recovery may encounter some problems. Especially on stages like Halberd or Delfino.

 

[kupo15]

That being said, should you guys go ahead and change things, the characters who have crap recovery may encounter some problems. Especially on stages like Halberd or Delfino.

No problems, just more skill required from them. Even if you were to remove side b AS and keep the range the same, you would still run into the same "problem" by going past the ledge if you space your recovery wrong. There was no problems before in melee, and there won't be any problems now.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

No problems, just more skill required from them.

^^^^ **** yes. This. The perfect example is the Melee illusions. They were still viable horizontal recovery techniques; you just had to be more careful when using them, due to the hitbox being behind the hurtbox.

 

[timothyung]

Then Halberd and Delfino will be perfect CPs against spacies.
Just like Mute City in Melee, but with ledges

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, what's wrong with characters having bad stages? As long as they don't have a plethora of stages that **** them over, it's fine, right?

 

[CloneHat]

Can't we make the sides of one of them solid or something?

Those are two dangerous counterpicks right out of the blue. You can only ban ONE stage, and both of these would be pretty vicious.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What mechanic are we adding/removing here?

 

[CloneHat]

What mechanic are we adding/removing here?

Side B's auto sweetspotting.

People are also discussing shortening the ledge grab range and ledge teching.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Side B's auto sweetspotting.

People are also discussing shortening the ledge grab range and ledge teching.

Disagree with the latter two, agree on the first. Why make it that much harder to grab the ledge? We're already making it a lot harder for the person recovering.

 

[CloneHat]

That's not saying much, seeing as recovery was almost risk-free before.

 

[Glick]

That might be interesting to try in a build. Isn't that what builds are for? to beta test things? maybe if people want new content without the game engine changes two builds can be made. I say make one because people have to stop thinking these builds are final. if the new build is ******** then we can change it back.

As far as my opinion goes on it. I'd like to try out the new side b auto sweet spot shenanigans. It's a significant nerf to a lot of peoples recoveries. like Jiggz, Wolf, MK, Fox, Falco, etc.

How the hell will MK recover now? He can only snap if he points his side B/up b down right? Which really isn't that big of a deal.

Oh wait. of course the downwards angle of snapping is staying, correct?


And isn't the ledge grab range different for everybody? I'm pretty sure jiggz has like the biggest one. she can grab the ledge from like 10 feet away. which is fine considering she doesn't have an Up B and she isn't the only character that has like 9034892 jumps or a crazy good recovery. (DDD,ROB,Pit,MK,Kirby,Charizard) instead of melee which was just Jiggz and kirby.

 

[timothyung]

Downwards angle of snapping is staying.

And I said nothing about characters having bad stages is bad

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Just a small suggestion: what are your guy's opinions on making peach's fair have reversible KB? by that I mean like going from a special offensive collision to a regular one. It was reversible in Melee, and I'm not sure why Sakurai did this in vbrawl. Although it's a buff if I think about it...

just a suggestion. Flame as you wish


@ timothy, ok.


only the upwards angle is being removed right? normal and down will still snap?

 

[CloneHat]

No reversable KB? Sounds like the KNEE (which was fixed)!

I don't know what you mean by the "normal" angle, but here's an example:

A phantasm will not sweetspot, it will play through the full animation, then Fox will be able to grab the ledge.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think ledge grab range should be decreased, but I don't think there should be ledge teching. I'm sure we could come up with a new, original AT instead of using a Melee one.

K. You better start brainstorming, then. Because the chances of us lowering the ledgegrab range without fixing ledgeteching... is almost zero. The smaller ledgegrab range would mean that characters need to get closer to the stage in order to sweetspot. But in doing so, they become more vulnerable to being hit away at the last moment. While a smaller ledgegrab range boasts positives to the ledgegame (giving more varied edgeguarding options and forcing the character being edgeguarded to recovery smarter), it also comes with negatives, the primary one being making certain edgeguards too potent. Ledgeteching fixes that problem in probably the simplest way possible, by taking an already existing mechanic and giving it more use.

Excuse me? I wasn't aware my opinion on something was incorrect.

I believe he was responding with the "rewards you for hitting a foe" part. The reward of hitting a foe while recovering... is hitting a foe while recovering. If you recover correctly, hitting a foe will already be helping you get back to the stage/ledge. Why should you get extra help in that regard when you're already gaining an advantage by simply hitting the foe?

^^^^ **** yes. This. The perfect example is the Melee illusions. They were still viable horizontal recovery techniques; you just had to be more careful when using them, due to the hitbox being behind the hurtbox.

Actually, the hitboxes in brawl are still behind the hurtbox... it's just that they move so fast in the first couple frames of the attack that their hurtbox frequently passes your hitbox before it comes out, which then clashes with their own hitbox.

Then Halberd and Delfino will be perfect CPs against spacies.
Just like Mute City in Melee, but with ledges

Uh... do you have any idea what you just said? The fact that these stages actually have ledges makes a huge difference. Battlefield had atrocious ledges in melee (still not as bad as kongo jungle 64, though), and it didn't stop fox and falco from doing great on that stage.

I also didn't think that mute city was such a bad level for fox. He can get gimped on that level harder than usual, yeah, but his shinespikes are all the more potent here, meaning he also gimps people harder (the exception is like... jiggs, who fricking ***** on this level). There's also the advantage that his upB recovery has no landing lag... sheik's and marth's upBs have a ton, making them extremely vulnerable if they're ever hit off the level. Also, if you recover just above stage level with sideB you can tech stuff by SDIing down, forcing your opponent to take a more active approach to "stage guarding," where most players simply try to hit you where you're going to be instead of going out there to hit you before you move.

...

And yet, since the stages you listed do have ledges, a lot of what I just said about mute city doesn't apply. Now if we were talking about port town...

Can't we make the sides of one of them solid or something?

Those are two dangerous counterpicks right out of the blue. You can only ban ONE stage, and both of these would be pretty vicious.

...

You're blowing this horribly out of proportion. Players will just have to be a little more careful recovering. The stages won't be much worse than they are already.

Disagree with the latter two, agree on the first. Why make it that much harder to grab the ledge? We're already making it a lot harder for the person recovering.

Because before brawl+ getting back to the stage was basically considered a given? And it's still really easy? We're also talking about getting rid of the autosweetspot on hit.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

by normal I mean not angled. as in just pressing side b to do pound, and not rising or falling the pound.

so I'm asking which variations will still snap. up angled, normal, down angled.

so if I'm right, normal and falling pound will still snap?

and By the peach thing I meant that I Want the KB to be reversible. although don't fix it like you did the knee; just make the hitbox a normal offensive collision. that will make it reversible.

@leafgreen: I didn't know about the illusion hurtbox was still in front in brawl....well the point was that it's a lot more punishable in Melee.

 

[CloneHat]

Does pound snap at all?

I don't think so, I recall it goes through the animation first.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

..oh, wait, you're right. Well it's still different than pound was in melee.

pound goes through the animation, but then it does auto snap. like if you pound right at the edge, you can't get out of snapping on to the ledge.

pound in melee didn't do that at all; it just had you right next to the ledge again.

 

[CloneHat]

..oh, wait, you're right. Well it's still different than pound was in melee.

pound goes through the animation, but then it does auto snap. like if you pound right at the edge, you can't get out of snapping on to the ledge.

pound in melee didn't do that at all; it just had you right next to the ledge again.

I guess it'll probably work like in Melee, then.

As I understand, you can snap onto the ledge with any pound, as long as you come out of it close enough to the ledge.

 

[Magus420]

The f-air is already likely going to have a normal offensive collision to test in the next set. And yes, it won't need adjustment to the hitbox to be reversible since it already starts overhead, and is able to hit people positioned with the middle of their character behind yours because of it (this is what causes 'reverse' hits).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh, I see. So captain falcon's fair needs a second hitbox to hit people behind you, because the first one can't hit that far back? I see.

 

[Magus420]

Yes, the melee knee had a sweetspot hitbox on his thigh which is generally what hit them when going for the reverse hit. The brawl knee, even with the non-reversible KB offensive collision on the sweetspot made into a normal one, would only really allow the positioning for it against... Bowser pretty much.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

So, CF's and Peach's fairs are going to be reversible...are any of the other ones being changed? Like, Sheik's bair, Peach's utilt, etc?

 

[GHNeko]

...Wait. Who said peach's fair was going to be reversable?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Magus did D:

and I don't mean reversible as in you can turn around during it (that would be lolz), I mean like if the opponent is right behind and you hit them, they go the opposite direction than fair when they're in front of you.

 

[Glick]

Pound auto snaps like half way through the animation if you do it declining or straight pound into the ledge. With raising the animation plays through but as soon as its over you can snap pretty quickly. That's mainly because the ledge grab length for jiggz is pretty crazy.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I read that as" ledge grab length for jiggz is pretty jiggzzy" (remove the g's)

anyways, really? I thought you just snapped as soon as the animation is over.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I still say ledge grab range is fine. It has too many uses in recovery. I think Snake would probably be hurt the most without suction ledges to use for airdodge/hugging the ledge. I argued against it for more reasons long ago and I'm against it for the same reasons now.

 

[shanus]

So, can anyone think of a special move which allows you to FF during the move?

 

[stingers]

there aren't any

 

[SymphonicSage12]

peach's up b? well that's special fall....

no, I don't think so.

EDIT: ffffffffffffffffffffffffff ninja'd

 

[CloneHat]

We need some SH single Falco lasers here please.

And oh yah, speaking of Jigglypuff, if you want to recover, just do an upwards pound somewhere within 100m under the ledge, and you'll be sucked right up to it as soon as the animation ends.