Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[cAm8ooo]

anyone else realize how broken MK/Kirby team is?

Lol. Im guessing you have been watching the latest chu+skyheart matches?

Anyways, there's not much you can do about that if the team was broken. You cant really balance out doubles (aside from getting rid of key double tactics aka omnigay) without hurting the competitive standpoint of singles. And as all we all know, singles should come first

 

[Blank Mauser]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm why? Down smash should be a perfectly legitimate form of edgeguarding. Snap ledges impedes competitive edgeguarding. You impede competitive edgeguarding. You also seemingly suck at this game



What in the world does it preserve other than uncompetitive vBrawl silliness that no one wants except you for some unjustified reason?



How bad are you at this game...? ledge teching was everywhere in melee. OMG IM COMPARING BRAWL+ TO MELEE :O :O :O :O



Why would it be crazy lenient? That is backwards thinking, vBrawl thinking. We're trying to make things more conducive to (l)edgeguard. If we remove auto snaps, it's easier to edgeguard. However, if the player adapts, they can tech, and it becomes a better rock-paper-scissors.

Get over yourself.

For one, its called sweetspotting. However, if someone really can just stand at the ledge and legitly edgeguard someone with Dsmash then thats called a bad recovery. Not to mention if you can punish someone with Dsmash theres not much reason you can't punish with a better move besides the fact that you were too lazy to edgehog in the first place and Dsmash just happens to be your only option to punish said bad recovery.

Yes, people recovering is such a silly concept. Airdodge hugging, being safe from certain attacks, and being able to go off the edge almost a character's length farther should be taken away for a technique that would barely add any real value to the edge game besides an oh snap moment that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

When did I ever mention Melee? Ledgeteching was everywhere in Melee because you could tech some ridiculous moves. Brawl+ ledgeteching I'm not even sure how lenient it would be.

By lenient I meant flexible. If something like what I mentioned happened ledgeteching would be an almost crucial part to recovery.

 

[Deleted member]

Recovering is not a right. It's an earned opportunity.

When I knock you off the stage and spike you, it is totally an "oh snap" moment that shouldn't have happened. And you know why it shouldn't have happened? Because you shouldn't have gotten knocked off the stage. This isn't going to be game changing, just game-enhancing. Mindless recoveries are stupid. Were you also against the other removals of auto-snap before the missed ones too? I'm hoping you weren't, though I wouldn't put it past you.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Recovering is not a right. It's an earned opportunity.

When I knock you off the stage and spike you, it is totally an "oh snap" moment that shouldn't have happened. And you know why it shouldn't have happened? Because you shouldn't have gotten knocked off the stage. This isn't going to be game changing, just game-enhancing. Mindless recoveries are stupid. Were you also against the other removals of auto-snap before the missed ones too? I'm hoping you weren't, though I wouldn't put it past you.

Thats such a narrow-minded way to view the ledge game. I don't see why people are so against the idea of actually recovering in this game.

Anyways, you obviously missed my point and are just trying my nerves so I'll wait until you say something worth listening to.

The issue at hand here is not recovering so much as it is the addition of a mediocre game mechanic while removing strategies that don't need to be touched.

 

[Deleted member]

What are you, some sort of communist? Explain to me how people DESERVE to recover. This is a fighting game, this isn't Candyland. No mercy.

There's a difference between making recoveries harder and having bad recoveries. Someone could have a good recovery (Meta Knight) but if we make it more difficult to recover, ie remove auto-snap and thus make sweetspotting more tricky, that doesn't make his recovery any worse. That just means you have to be smarter to do it. PLUS, you're then given the opportunity to ledge-tech or whatever suits your fancy and you have a 2nd chance. Which is pushing it, if you ask me, but it's an integral, fun part of the game. You just suck, sir. And by the way, how you ever made the WBR astounds me. But whatever.

 

[Blank Mauser]

What are you, some sort of communist? Explain to me how people DESERVE to recover. This is a fighting game, this isn't Candyland. No mercy.

There's a difference between making recoveries harder and having bad recoveries. Someone could have a good recovery (Meta Knight) but if we make it more difficult to recover, ie remove auto-snap and thus make sweetspotting more tricky, that doesn't make his recovery any worse. That just means you have to be smarter to do it. PLUS, you're then given the opportunity to ledge-tech or whatever suits your fancy and you have a 2nd chance. Which is pushing it, if you ask me, but it's an integral, fun part of the game. You just suck, sir. And by the way, how you ever made the WBR astounds me. But whatever.

Its not integral in any way, just like Manual L-canceling wasn't integral. Another issue I couldn't stand your lack of logic on.

Whats astounding is how you can be so dense and yet try to put others skill level down. If you ever made the WBR I'd lose all faith in this project.

 

[Shell]

Please, no more personal attacks. Let's keep this civil+.

 

[Deleted member]

You continue to outright ignore my fundamental point on recovery. It isn't a right, it's an opportunity.

My lack of logic is nonexistent. I have presented the silver-bullet point over and over again but none of you wanted to listen. There is always a tech skill barrier - the game is played physically, not mentally, not electronically, not vicariously.

If I made the WBR (which I won't, I'm much too inflammatory) the only thing that would change is the colour of my name. My points would remain the same, as would my position on your scrubbery.

Also, awesome. My 4000th post was basically dedicated to flaming you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Shell: I thought this was a brawl+?

 

[Alphatron]

because it makes the ledge game have more quote unquote depth and makes recoveries less EZ mode.

Stop it with your *****iness. Seriously. THAT's not warranted...at all

Even if you mean well, why do you sport this attitude?

 

[thesage]

Thats such a narrow-minded way to view the ledge game. I don't see why people are so against the idea of actually recovering in this game.

People are against the fact that it's so easy to recovery in this game. It's really easy to sweetspot and the sweetspot range is wtfhuge.

The issue at hand here is not recovering so much as it is the addition of a mediocre game mechanic while removing strategies that don't need to be touched.

It's not only removing something (I wouldn't call making it harder to recover removing a strategy) but it's also adding in some stuff, such as difficulty (which a lot of people at tournaments complain about), more strategies (edgeguarding missed sweetspots is viable and more recoveries are easier to edgeguard).

Why don't we look at a character's recovery and tweak how far they can grab they edge from specifically. Some characters really need the range to grab (one way to sweetspot Ness/Lucas' pkt2 recoveries wouldn't work) while others (MK, Kirby, Jiggs) don't.

 

[Shadic]

Even if you mean well, why do you sport this attitude?

It's not the first time. Guy has some serious anger management issues, and it's getting old.

Sorry for being a ***** to you. I figured it out.

 

[Hyrus]

Brawl+ nerfed Mario's recovery more than it helped (heavily engrossed opinion). Mario could plank like a madman, but no snapping the ledge and higher gravity has put a heavy toll on his ability to make it back, especially since he has to wait much longer before he can start an UpB. A lot of characters are similar - there is a period in a low recovery where the player can't do any action and has to wait for the right window to UpB or they won't make it back. So making sweetspotting more tricky... does in fact make recovering more tricky. And because there are different kinds of recoveries, some which use momtentum and have different trajectories, that gets affected too.

Here's a fun factoid on Bowser - he snaps the ledge closer facing the ledge than away. Theoretically, if the ledge were shrunk, it may become impossible for him to grab the ledge facing away from it.

=== Project Overview ===

Brawl+ is a project pioneered by the smash community with the intent to make Brawl a deeper, more competitive game. With codes compiled by the hard working hackers that created them, the player has access to codes which can do anything from disabling tripping to bringing back combos. This does not mean, however, that we are trying to copy Melee, the game will still feel like Brawl, but your options will greatly expand.

You can read that paragraph, and other statements from the team, in a variety of interpretations. But I think the goal has been met, and then some. There are infinite things you can change in a game and you can develop it forever if you don't adhere to goals. Every suggestion I hear ends with "...more like melee" in a project that continues to claim that it will still be Brawl, only deeper.

The game is deeper! Chaingrabs are out! Shieldstun is in! Aerial landing lag is reduced, gravities are changed! Characters that weren't viable are viable, and top tier characters are still top tier! (I guess that's called balance.)

Brawl has larger ledges. I suppose, to promote more skill with approaches and less whimsical, low % gimps. That's a part of what makes Brawl not Melee.

As a player, you will get bored. Period. I love video games, but no matter how much I play a game, I will eventually need a break from it. As a player/developer, you will want to FIX boredom with more features. You will overcomplicate, imbalance and wreck the game that way.

I think Brawl+ shouldn't be anything more than character/stage tweaks from here on out. If the community wants to make a Brawl++ or Brawl~ or something with crazy techs and features, that should be it's own project. But I don't want to have to be relearning new physics and techniques every couple of months.

Tweak and ship this beast. The sooner a gold release, the sooner real competitive analysis can be made about characters, the sooner the project gets mass exposure, the sooner this thread is locked, the better.

 

[Deleted member]

Dota, Counter-Strike, Soldat.. many community driven games and modifications never lock their "threads". Always room to improve, and patch when need be.

 

[kupo15]

I think the ledge game is fine right now, suction ledges in all. There are plenty of things suction ledges play a role in preserving, and its not worth changing for ledgeteching which would hardly be seen much. Teching meteors, stage spikes etc. are all already possible.

I fail to fathom what crucial roles suction ledges are preserving.

Edit: Unless this ledgeteching is like, crazy lenient and people are going to be stage teching Fsmashes with proper timing. Then maybe I'd open up more.

Ah, right. Just like MK26, you'd be more open to it because it would keep things easy.

posts

I approve

The move was probably one of the easiest moves in the game to ledgetech.

.

I don't even think it was a ledge tech because the hitoxes pull you in towards the stage so it would just be a normal tech.

. Were you also against the other removals of auto-snap before the missed ones too? I'm hoping you weren't, though I wouldn't put it past you.

I believe he was.

Dam*, I was going to bring it up from the B+ brigade boards but they are offline. Pretty sure I could have found something

Its not integral in any way, just like Manual L-canceling wasn't integral. Another issue I couldn't stand your lack of logic on.

I chuckled. We talking about Melee now?

Whats astounding is how you can be so dense and yet try to put others skill level down. If you ever made the WBR I'd lose all faith in this project

I already have because there are people like you back there and your not the only one. We need more people like him who actually know what they are talking about.

Brawl has larger ledges. I suppose, to promote more skill with approaches and less whimsical, low % gimps. That's a part of what makes Brawl not Melee.

Come again? More skill with, what approaches? Larger ledges means less skill in recovering which as DeLoRtEd1 has stated, must be earned. At the moment, its still given away for free like a 2 week vacation to the Bahamas

 

[DarkDragoon]

At the moment, its still given away for free like a 2 week vacation to the Bahamas

>_> I agree with you about the ledges, they should be a little tougher...but I don't think the 2 week vacation to the Bahamas was a good example, since I never get those for free T-T!
-DD

 

[Revven]

When you get knocked offstage, it is your fault for getting knocked offstage and not trying hard enough to stay onstage. Recovering back on shouldn't be easy, it should take some amount, nay a good amount of skill and work to get back to that stage otherwise the quote "You must recover!" is meaningless.

This is the kind of ledge action that should be seen or at least CLOSE enough to that amount of work to get back to the stage. It couldn't be EXACTLY like that in the video, due to how the Brawl engine is, it would be pretty darn close but certainly not far from an exciting ledge game.

 

[Shadic]

Come again? More skill with, what approaches? Larger ledges means less skill in recovering which as DeLoRtEd1 has stated, must be earned. At the moment, its still given away for free like a 2 week vacation to the Bahamas

More skill in edgeguarding.

 

[kupo15]

but I don't think the 2 week vacation to the Bahamas was a good example, since I never get those for free T-T!
-DD

LOL. Oh well. You got me on that one. =)


SMK
Why people don't want something close to that excitement is beyond me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Brawl+ nerfed Mario's recovery more than it helped (heavily engrossed opinion). Mario could plank like a madman, but no snapping the ledge and higher gravity has put a heavy toll on his ability to make it back, especially since he has to wait much longer before he can start an UpB. A lot of characters are similar - there is a period in a low recovery where the player can't do any action and has to wait for the right window to UpB or they won't make it back. So making sweetspotting more tricky... does in fact make recovering more tricky. And because there are different kinds of recoveries, some which use momtentum and have different trajectories, that gets affected too.

Here's a fun factoid on Bowser - he snaps the ledge closer facing the ledge than away. Theoretically, if the ledge were shrunk, it may become impossible for him to grab the ledge facing away from it.

=== Project Overview ===


You can read that paragraph, and other statements from the team, in a variety of interpretations. But I think the goal has been met, and then some. There are infinite things you can change in a game and you can develop it forever if you don't adhere to goals. Every suggestion I hear ends with "...more like melee" in a project that continues to claim that it will still be Brawl, only deeper.

The game is deeper! Chaingrabs are out! Shieldstun is in! Aerial landing lag is reduced, gravities are changed! Characters that weren't viable are viable, and top tier characters are still top tier! (I guess that's called balance.)

Brawl has larger ledges. I suppose, to promote more skill with approaches and less whimsical, low % gimps. That's a part of what makes Brawl not Melee.

As a player, you will get bored. Period. I love video games, but no matter how much I play a game, I will eventually need a break from it. As a player/developer, you will want to FIX boredom with more features. You will overcomplicate, imbalance and wreck the game that way.

I think Brawl+ shouldn't be anything more than character/stage tweaks from here on out. If the community wants to make a Brawl++ or Brawl~ or something with crazy techs and features, that should be it's own project. But I don't want to have to be relearning new physics and techniques every couple of months.

Tweak and ship this beast. The sooner a gold release, the sooner real competitive analysis can be made about characters, the sooner the project gets mass exposure, the sooner this thread is locked, the better.

Mostly agree with all but the last part. A game-changer like changing ledge-grabbing severly, again, seems like a very poor idea. Making the game harder to play isn't always a good thing, you know. And and skill lost with recovering will be made up by skill in comboing, surviving with DI, and, oh, I dunno, edgeguarding? I really don't understand the mindset of you... melee people who have issues with making it harder for the person already in an advantageous situation while not making it downright impossible for the disadvantaged. A lot of characters have a hard enough time recovering as is.
Let's count the ways we make it harder for recovering characters.
-NASL
-Gravity changes
-Hitstun
Yes, hitstun. If you, as a character with a poor recovery, get hit by an attack like DK's bair or another attack that has a relatively low angle at high percentages-even if you don't outright die, you will be in hitstun long enough that it could really make a very large difference in your recovery. If we could do this on a character by character basis (Make it really hard for the guys with many jumps and good upBs, make it easier for guys who have problems with it), more realistic...

Come again? More skill with, what approaches? Larger ledges means less skill in recovering which as DeLoRtEd1 has stated, must be earned. At the moment, its still given away for free like a 2 week vacation to the Bahamas

Read again. He's not contesting skill on recovery.

 

[leafgreen386]

I think Brawl+ shouldn't be anything more than character/stage tweaks from here on out. If the community wants to make a Brawl++ or Brawl~ or something with crazy techs and features, that should be it's own project. But I don't want to have to be relearning new physics and techniques every couple of months.

Tweak and ship this beast. The sooner a gold release, the sooner real competitive analysis can be made about characters, the sooner the project gets mass exposure, the sooner this thread is locked, the better.

I'm going to put this as kindly as I possibly can: screw you.

Brawl+ started out with limited coders and a userbase that was just happy to get a new code to expand upon the mechanics. In those days, all changes were mechanics changes. There was nothing implemented that wasn't universal. People kept playing even though they would constantly have to relearn mechanics, because these mechanics changes kept making the game better and better. Yeah, it took some adjusting, but overall, we were happy about it. We were glad that we had to adapt to this new style of play.

Then... after we realized that we were making a lot of frame speed modifications for things such as landing lag, throw speed (since has been thrown out), ledges, and jump start, we got the frame speed mod, and specific character changes started getting implemented (one of the first was MK's dsmash slowdown, if you remember). But not many were made, since we were still operating under a 256 line limit. As a result, when things started getting tight, we had to cut frame speed mods in order to fit under the limit. Then we freed ourselves from the line limit and we got the hitbox mod, and we realized that we actually were going to be able to balance this game and do a good job of it.

Unfortunately, somewhere in there, the awesome coders we had started dropping away (PW took a long break, spunit's computer died, and igglyboo never really liked brawl+ anyway), leaving us with only PK and almas to make codes. Well, they have lives, too, you know, so we had to drastically cut back on our code requests. But we had the frame speed mod. We had the hitbox mod. We could do a ton of stuff on our own, without coder's help. Well... sorta. The hitbox mod required us to ask someone with a gecko to find the hitbox data (usually ended up being either PK or giza who we would ask), but that doesn't take anywhere near as much time or effort to do compared to actually making codes. So we sorta fell into a loop where we would focus mainly on character changes, since most of the mechanics in the game had already been ironed out, and the stuff we still wanted would require a highly complicated code to do. That snowballed all the way to the release of PSA, constantly working on almost nothing but character changes. This means that for several months, the public grew used to the general mechanics put in place, and instead were adapting to their specific character changes.

Yet, still, look at this forum today. With the release of PSA, we've completed most of the character changes. The large majority of it is done at this point. But PSA also made us realize something: it reminded us that there are mechanics we wanted to add but have never been able to - mechanics that we now have the power to change. Almost anything about a character can be edited with PSA... which includes the way the game mechanics affect them. Of course, we also have kupo to thank for coming back and fighting for mechanics changes, which certainly had an impact on where we're going with this now.

Yes, we should have put in mechanics changes before we started balancing the game. Yes, we screwed up. Yes, it's very late to be doing this. But no, we should not give up on getting the mechanics for this game that we always wanted - the mechanics that we forgot about for months at a time. We should be seeking to correct this now that we have the ability to. We should be trying to make this a better game in every way we know possible. Yes, there was a long time where we only focused on character changes, but it was largely because that's what we were able to do. Now we can do more, and that shouldn't be ignored. It would be a horrible thing to pass up this opportunity to make the game better. It will delay us more, yeah. But so what? We're all plenty familiar with this taking a long time. We're all plenty familiar with constant change. There are many people complacent with vbrawl. Why do we have to grow complacent with this version of brawl+ when it can be made better than that?

The mechanics changes being discussed will require rebalancing the cast, and looking at each of their changes again. A pain? Yeah. But it'll be worth it. It'll be worth every last ounce of effort required to make this game as good as it possibly can be. I actually think a large majority of the current character changes will end up getting kept even after these mechanics changes, meaning that the time spent making them will not have been wasted. We already were planning on going through the character changes again now that PSA might be able to do something better than what we were able to do with just codes. The only difference now is that we'll also have to take into consideration the new mechanics tweaks. So I say... let's take a break from character changes for a bit and focus on the mechanics again like we should have long ago. Then, when we finally have polished the mechanics, look at character changes again, and begin the release candidate cycle.

Just because some members are impatient or reluctant to change does not mean that we shouldn't strive to make this game the best it can be. It shouldn't stop us from going back over the mechanics, and implementing what should have been done from the start. We need to do this. We could get along without it, and the game would still turn out "ok." But why settle for that? Why not reach beyond and make brawl+ "great?" There's no reason not to. We're not a company. We don't have a strict release schedule where we start losing money if we don't release this game on time. We shouldn't let sloppy game mechanics slide, and that's all there is to it.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's count the ways we make it harder for recovering characters.
-NASL
-Gravity changes
-Hitstun
Yes, hitstun. If you, as a character with a poor recovery, get hit by an attack like DK's bair or another attack that has a relatively low angle at high percentages-even if you don't outright die, you will be in hitstun long enough that it could really make a very large difference in your recovery. If we could do this on a character by character basis (Make it really hard for the guys with many jumps and good upBs, make it easier for guys who have problems with it), more realistic...

OH nooo!!!!11 you mean to say there are characters with lackluster recoveries?! this simply cannot be! characters can't have weaknesses!!!111!! !!!

 

[Shadic]

OH nooo!!!!11 you mean to say there are characters with lackluster recoveries?! this simply cannot be! characters can't have weaknesses!!!111!! !!!

Stop acting like a child and actually come up with a response.

I'm honestly getting sick of you people spending all your time attacking the intelligence of those who disagree with you. People have differing ideas of what Brawl+ should be, people have difference preferences in how mechanics should work. Calling those who are fine with a mechanic as-is complacent and unskilled is getting really tiring.

I (Among others, it seems) think that the edge game should be a challenge for both sides. And I currently think that it is. There's a lot of characters with poor recoveries that get heavily gimped even with this "lolEZ" edges that you people keep bickering back and forth about. People want the person recovering to be put in an even more difficult position. However, I think that if you want a gimp/ledgeguard, you're going to have to earn it.

You may think that making the ledge harder to get to gives more in terms of gameplay than the current system. I disagree.

Now everybody put your god****ed big-boy pants on and have a civilized discussion, for Christ's sake.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because I mocked him doesn't mean my point is any weaker. Characters have weaknesses. That means auto-snap or not, you will have to deal with that. Removing auto-snap makes ledge-guarding both easier and harder. It will be more accessible, as there won't be invisible game-ruining mechanics preventing you from ledge-guarding, but it will also be difficult to edgeguard efficiently. It took me years of playing Melee to get down my edge-guarding to a respectable degree.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Awesome.

*starts slow clap*
:3 I can't wait to see how this turns out.
-DD

 

[Hyrus]

I really don't understand the mindset of you... melee people who have issues with making it harder for the person already in an advantageous situation while not making it downright impossible for the disadvantaged. A lot of characters have a hard enough time recovering as is.

This + grammer.

massive text

That's a wonderful post and I thank you for the time you put into expressing your thoughts. I read it in full. I don't think there's really anything to argue; we just have different views of what we want the project to be. Either way, it was never my intent to insult anybody and am deeply apologetic that I did so. My bad.

 

[Shadic]

Just because I mocked him doesn't mean my point is any weaker. Characters have weaknesses. That means auto-snap or not, you will have to deal with that. Removing auto-snap makes ledge-guarding both easier and harder. It will be more accessible, as there won't be invisible game-ruining mechanics preventing you from ledge-guarding, but it will also be difficult to edgeguard efficiently. It took me years of playing Melee to get down my edge-guarding to a respectable degree.

How does it make ledge-guarding harder? From all I've heard, all this does is say "Screw you" to people trying to recover, and make weak characters weaker.

 

[Deleted member]

Supposing the edge-guarding world has more freedom, it'll require mastery.

 

[Shadic]

Uh, what? That's just giving it more options, not making it harder at all.

 

[Deleted member]

You're just taking the word "harder" the wrong way. It will be more fleshed out, making it difficult to be really good at it. That's how it should be, anyway.

 

[Shadic]

You're using the word wrong. What you want is "Easier, with more options."

Using "harder" as I am (More difficult), would mean that the CURRENT system is the hardest to ledge-guard.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

OH nooo!!!!11 you mean to say there are characters with lackluster recoveries?! this simply cannot be! characters can't have weaknesses!!!111!! !!!

Um... yeaaaaah... Strawman much?

You're just taking the word "harder" the wrong way. It will be more fleshed out, making it difficult to be really good at it. That's how it should be, anyway.

OH nooo!!!!11 you mean to say there are characters with lackluster edgeguard games?! this simply cannot be! characters can't have weaknesses!!!111!! !!!


That did not work as well as I had hoped.

Quite simply, you're saying "more options=harder because I have to think". What?


Maybe you're missing something, but the people here who are advocating not shrinking the grab range on some chars are not trying to make the game easier for the recovering character without any trade-off at all. They're trying to make it easier for him and harder for the edgeguarder. So you need more skills to get your kills; it isn't as simple as getting your opponent offstage and a little below the stage, then timing your dtilt (or, in some cases, just pressing down+a as much as possible) anywhere near correctly (unless your opponent is playing a character with an incredible recovery like Metaknight who doesn't give a **** about the edgeguarding opponent either way).

 

[Deleted member]

Whatever. Anyway the point is the auto-snap is an obstacle. Once removed, people can start getting serious about edge-guarding. Not that they weren't before, but still.

edit:

Budget, I'm not missing anything. The brunt of this argument can come down to one point - who should get the disadvantage, the edge-guarder, or the victim?

The fact is, if you're off the stage, there needs to be a sufficient penalty. We shouldn't cater to people who suck at staying on the stage. We need to reward good play by allowing edge-guarding the way it should be.

 

[stingers]

It seems to me like everyone who's for the removal of this just wants to make it easier on themselves...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Whatever. Anyway the point is the auto-snap is an obstacle. Once removed, people can start getting serious about edge-guarding. Not that they weren't before, but still.

edit:

Budget, I'm not missing anything. The brunt of this argument can come down to one point - who should get the disadvantage, the edge-guarder, or the victim?

The fact is, if you're off the stage, there needs to be a sufficient penalty. We shouldn't cater to people who suck at staying on the stage. We need to reward good play by allowing edge-guarding the way it should be.

You are missing part of it. The "disadvantage"? You die if you don't make it back to the ledge. If you whiff your snap, then you eat **** for it either way. Making it a lot harder will, IMO, only polarize matchups to the point where characters that can combo across the stage then edgeguard become king. Wait a sec... Marth, Wario, Metaknight, Squirtle.... I'm noticing a pattern here... Especially marth gets absolutely ******** with these changes. It would be **** near impossible to recover against marth as, say, CF.

 

[Shadic]

The fact is, if you're off the stage, there needs to be a sufficient penalty. We shouldn't cater to people who suck at staying on the stage. We need to reward good play by allowing edge-guarding the way it should be.

Hrm.. Such as.. "On no, I have a crappy jump and a predictable UpB! I have to make it past the Ninja with spammy projectiles, faster moves, and better aerial mobility without her hitting me!"

If you're off the ledge, you're already at a significant disadvantage. All (Most) characters can do is try and mindgame/sweetspot their way back to the ledge, without getting hit or ledge-grabbed in the middle of it. And if you fail to recover, you're dead.

What's the penalty for a whiffed ledgeguard? You have to try and kill them again?

 

[BeepBopRobot]

I haven't really been following this discussion closely, but ive gathered its about whether or not making recovery more difficult.

Marth was probably not a good example to use cadet, seeing how his recovery isn't all that great either. However wario, mk, and squirtle are good points.

But if this mechanic was put in, Wario, mk, and squirtle could always be nerfed.

What's the penalty for a whiffed ledgeguard? You have to try and kill them again?

Edit, if you wiff an off stage edgeguard (aka a gimp) your opponent can sometimes get back on the stage while you're still offstage and then your in danger. Thats the penatly.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

Edit: meant to make this an edit of my previous but I accidentally quoted myself instead... so accidental double post..

delete this.

 

[Shadic]

So you're penalty is possible incompetence? Not really seeing the issue. If you fail to intercept a recovery, you may as well be gimped for it, especially if you're a fatter character (Link)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hrm.. Such as.. "On no, I have a crappy jump and a predictable UpB! I have to make it past the Ninja with spammy projectiles, faster moves, and better aerial mobility without her hitting me!"

If you're off the ledge, you're already at a significant disadvantage. All (Most) characters can do is try and mindgame/sweetspot their way back to the ledge, without getting hit or ledge-grabbed in the middle of it. And if you fail to recover, you're dead.

What's the penalty for a whiffed ledgeguard? You have to try and kill them again?

This.

I haven't really been following this discussion closely, but ive gathered its about whether or not making recovery more difficult.

Marth was probably not a good example to use cadet, seeing how his recovery isn't all that great either. However wario, mk, and squirtle are good points.

But if this mechanic was put in, Wario, mk, and squirtle could always be nerfed.

Edit, if you wiff an off stage edgeguard (aka a gimp) your opponent can sometimes get back on the stage while you're still offstage and then your in danger. Thats the penatly.

Marth is the PERFECT example. Marth's dtilt is absolutely ******** for edgeguarding against people who aren't really good at sweetspotting. And marth not only can combo across the entire stage, but has the ken combo spike setup.