Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[C.J.]

However, just because it's rational and competitive to you, doesn't mean what they're suggesting isn't rational and competitive to them as well. Just because you don't see the rationale behind it doesn't mean it's not there. You're saying, it needs to be harder on the person recovering. Everyone agrees, however, they also think that it should take more work to get a gimp than what you're trying to make. Still makes it more competitive, but, competitive towards the side opposite your own. It makes getting gimps harder. Harder means more skill. More skill promotes more competition. What they're saying still is rational, and still promotes competitive play, they've just not gearing it towards the same side you are.

 

[Shadic]

He's conveniently ignored about six posts prior saying that, C.J. I wouldn't put it past him to ignore yours.

 

[Deleted member]

I've already dismissed that silly argument with the fact that person recovering sucked enough to get hit off the stage. Them getting hit is NOT the punishment. What follows and the disadvantageous position they are put into is the position.

That allows better players to seamlessly edgeguard and finalize their kill. Making recovery easier just impedes them. We take out auto snap, we add in some better techs - it balances out. Earn your recovery. It's not guaranteed.

Yo Shadic, **** you. You wanna talk about civility?

 

[Alphatron]

I've already dismissed that silly argument with the fact that person recovering sucked enough to get hit off the stage. Them getting hit is NOT the punishment. What follows and the disadvantageous position they are put into is the position.

That allows better players to seamlessly edgeguard and finalize their kill. Making recovery easier just impedes them. We take out auto snap, we add in some better techs - it balances out. Earn your recovery. It's not guaranteed.

Yo Shadic, **** you. You wanna talk about civility? Don't call me out then. Sorry if I don't check Smashboards all the time. I just moved out of my house and haven't had time to do so.

Watching your Ness vs. Kirby vids, as long as you know that this also applies to you then I'm fine with what you're saying.

 

[Zelc]

Can we just remove ledges and be done with it?

 

[GHNeko]

;_;

No one likes my ledge tech idea?

 

[Deleted member]

Watching your Ness vs. Kirby vids, as long as you know that this also applies to you then I'm fine with what you're saying.

Yeah, I know that as a Ness main, Ness is / could be / will probably be / boned a little by what I'm presenting, but that's irrelevant. We're trying to make a great competitive game, not a game that caters to lesser players.

 

[Shadic]

I've already dismissed that silly argument with the fact that person recovering sucked enough to get hit off the stage. Them getting hit is NOT the punishment. What follows and the disadvantageous position they are put into is the position.

That allows better players to seamlessly edgeguard and finalize their kill. Making recovery easier just impedes them. We take out auto snap, we add in some better techs - it balances out. Earn your recovery. It's not guaranteed.

Yo Shadic, **** you. You wanna talk about civility?

I've already had a fairly detailed post showing how you are seemingly incapable of posting in a civil manner, so blow off.

Why give more advantage of the offense in the ledgeguard situation? You seem to want everybody to be boned the second they get off the stage. Others think that if you want a gimp, you should earn it.

 

[Plum]

Did anybody see that Will Ferrell movie, Semi Pro?
Wasn't anything special, but there was a great quote.

"Everybody love everybody!"

The Brawl+ community of my dreams ._.

 

[CloneHat]

Whatwhatwhat!? This is getting out of hand.

The ledge grab range is huge, and in general doesn't make sense.

If we made it smaller, it would take more skill to sweetspot, because it's pretty easy.

Since it's harder, we have ledge teching, to help out the recoverers (recoverees isn't a word lol), but not that much. It still puts them at a disadvantageous position (that's why I don't think you idea, while good, is necessary, Neko).

This is what's happening, so lets stop telling each other to **** off, polarizing arguments and have some sensical discussion!

 

[Deleted member]

Why give more advantage of the offense in the ledgeguard situation? You seem to want everybody to be boned the second they get off the stage. Others think that if you want a gimp, you should earn it.

Let's be realistic. Getting off the stage does not mean death 100% of the time. I'm not even sure it's 25% of the time. However. To even consider for one second that we should impede the offensive (which brings up another point - why would we impede them? It's not fair?! **** fair. Fair is foul. Foul is fair.) is scrubdom. We reward winners, not losers.

 

[Shadic]

So reward those who can actually follow all the way through with a KO and bring the offensive to the off-stage game. That's what the current system does.

To steal the terminology of those who want a change, making the ledge grab distance smaller makes it "EZ-Mode" for those stopping people from recovering.

 

[CloneHat]

Sweetspots are still possible, just HARDER TO DO. You can't hit people 100% of the time from on the ledge, so going off is more reliable.

 

[Deleted member]

That's not the way the system works. EZ-Mode ledges exist to cater to a less competitive, equal balanced system. That's Sakurai's philosophy which we fundamentally disagree with, which is why we created the project in the first place. We don't want an equally balanced system - equal benefits to the offensive / defensive - we want a system that allows the offensive to make their move with precise control and not be impeded by invisible magnets on the stage.

The reason it balances out is because the hunter can become the hunted. Just get better.

We want capitalism, not communism.

 

[Mattnumbers]

After watching that Melee recovery video I yearn deeply for this change to happen.
And the things Neko pointed out were why I said we should make the techs send you farther up; that way you don't have repetitive edgeguards since you get to reapproach from a different angle.

Also, even though I support this, I still think Delorted is being a ****, and it's making our side look bad.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

That's not the way the system works. EZ-Mode ledges exist to cater to a less competitive, equal balanced system. That's Sakurai's philosophy which we fundamentally disagree with, which is why we created the project in the first place. We don't want an equally balanced system - equal benefits to the offensive / defensive - we want a system that allows the offensive to make their move with precise control and not be impeded by invisible magnets on the stage.

The reason it balances out is because the hunter can become the hunted. Just get better.

We want capitalism, not communism.

<3 this post. We don't want it to be equal for edgeguarder and the edgeguarded. In all reality, it makes sense for the person recovering to be in a disadvantageous situation. I mean, if it's equal, that defeats the whole point of YOU MUST RECOVER!

 

[CloneHat]

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3218296

 

[SymphonicSage12]

So, what kind of objection do you have, kind sir? Hearsay? Relevance? Beyond the Scope? Please elaborate.


*cough*


All in all, I support ledgeteching. But if anyone has seen that video vs falco and dr mario, the dr. mario ledgeteches like 10 times before the falco LETS him onto the stage again. We don't want that, right?

 

[Deleted member]

Also, even though I support this, I still think Delorted is being a ****, and it's making our side look bad.

Meh I don't mind being a **** if it means we get a better game out of it. Growing pains. I'm not a bad guy, seriously. Sometimes I get carried away, sometimes I get frustrated, but most of the time it's just because I need to get the message through some relatively thick skulls.

 

[Roxas215]

Ok so i want to know everyone opinion on this. Snes gathered alot of hype for brawl+ And while people are admitting they had fun and the game was exciting to watch almost everyone is saying the game is too easy and i agree. The results prove it as well. Ksizzle got 3rd place never playing the game. Termina got 7th. Never playing the game(squirtle,mk). They all saying they just do what they think works and turns out that it does. This isn't a good look if we want this game to be tourney viable. I actually don't know what to change im just putting this out there.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

More techniques like ledge teching! :D

But seriously, more techniques is the only way I can think of making the game harder.

 

[CloneHat]

So, what kind of objection do you have, kind sir? Hearsay? Relevance? Beyond the Scope? Please elaborate.


*cough*


All in all, I support ledgeteching. But if anyone has seen that video vs falco and dr mario, the dr. mario ledgeteches like 10 times before the falco LETS him onto the stage again. We don't want that, right?

I just used the objection thing 'cause it was awesome.

But you get the message,

 

[SymphonicSage12]

So we want ledgeteching that increase in bouce distance each time, correct? So, in theory, you would have "limited" tech attempts?

 

[Mattnumbers]

I would rather the tech just send you at a different angle so that you have to recover differently after a successful tech. This keeps stuff like the Dtilt ->ledge tech, Dtilt ->ledge tech , repeat cycle from happening.

 

[Shell]

Ok so i want to know everyone opinion on this. Snes gathered alot of hype for brawl+ And while people are admitting they had fun and the game was exciting to watch almost everyone is saying the game is too easy and i agree. The results prove it as well. Ksizzle got 3rd place never playing the game. Termina got 7th. Never playing the game(squirtle,mk). They all saying they just do what they think works and turns out that it does. This isn't a good look if we want this game to be tourney viable. I actually don't know what to change im just putting this out there.

That's sort of the idea of Brawl+ -- all those things you thought should work finally do.

If it's easy for the people who won, shouldn't it have been equally easy for the people who lost? Why did they lose? Do you see what I'm getting at?

Being able to pick it up quickly isn't a problem, however, if you have suggestions for raising the ceiling of mastery without dramatically changing the easy to pick up nature of the game (AKA the ability to "do what you think should work" right off the bat), I'm all ears.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Also you gotta remember that skills in other smash games WILL transfer over, many skills are used in all of them (reflexes, mindgames, DI/SDI, ect.). Although a problem arises when these people can go even with people who actually play the game competitively already. Easy pick up is great, the only problem is that you need to have depth afterwords so there is room to improve

 

[Roxas215]

Also you gotta remember that skills in other smash games WILL transfer over, many skills are used in all of them (reflexes, mindgames, DI/SDI, ect.). Although a problem arises when these people can go even with people who actually play the game competitively already. Easy pick up is great, the only problem is that you need to have depth afterwords so there is room to improve

Exactly. Kszizzle going even with guru just off the strength he doing what he "thinks" works makes no sense.

 

[Mattnumbers]

off topic, but is it really spelled "afterwords" and not "afterwards", for some reason that spelling seems strange to me, but Firefox disagrees.

 

[Deleted member]

Afterwords are epilogues. "Afterwards" is only underlined in red because of the plural S. Really, you don't need the S. You can just say "afterward." But either spelling is correct.

 

[kupo15]

So sorry this is late due to moving in to college

I'm honestly getting sick of you people spending all your time attacking the intelligence of those who disagree with you.

I hope the bolded is being taken with a grain of salt.

Whining babies who don't know what they are talking about

Do you guys actually read what you are writing? Ok, I want to generalize here for a second. A lot of you seem to suck at the game and this fact proves itself to be true with most posts I am reading. Most of it has to do with people making such a big deal and blowing things out of proportion. It has to do with people saying how this mechanic change will destroy characters and say that its going to be too hard to recover. So to explain, I have to bring out badass melee and its evil twin, smash 64 because it is apparent that most of you don't know much about them competitively.

So one general thing I see a lot is that

"reducing ledge grabbing will make recovering too hard."

Do you even know what "too hard" actually means? You have a game where you can REVERSE GRAB and you have a game where recoveries are soo much better than before and you have a game where you can air dodge INFINITELY and you have a game that is slightly more floaty as well and you have a game where everything is a meteor and you have a game where you can meteor cancel and you have a game where you can wall tech moves and you have a game with a grab range that extends beyond the ledge pretty far and you have a game where you can ledge tech if you missed a sweet spot and a game where you can hack in to rebalance OP things. Lets look at these and see if the other games have these Brawl specific mechanics as well.

Reverse grabbing Brawl Melee 64
Air dodge Infinitely Brawl Melee 64
Floatier game Brawl+ Melee 64
All meteors Brawl Melee 64
Meteor Canceling Brawl Melee 64
Wall teching Brawl Melee 64
Decent grab range Brawl Melee 64
Hackable for Competition Brawl Melee 64

Ok lets look at the results. Wow. Brawl+ seems to have NO strike outs at alll! If reducing the grab range in Brawl+ will make edge guarding so pointless and easy to a point where recovering is impossible, then what does that say about Melee and 64? I guess you obviously couldn't recover at all in those games. Edge guarding obviously was a piece of cake in Melee (as easy as mashing dsmash) and 64 is just a terrible game because of how harsh the ledge was (not to mention that recovering is not possible.....oh wait...have you seen the last stock of this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiDU2boPVLU And that is Link who has the worst recovery in the game!).

Are you seeing all the help that Brawl has over Melee (and even more than 64) and yet you are also saying that a little reduction in grab range will make recovering "too hard?" In comparison to 64, there is NO way you can say that recovering would ever be "too hard" in Brawl+.

Another thing that people are doing is making it all about themselves and what will happen to "me" and "my skills" instead of whats better for a healthy competitive game. Everyone forgets the fact that this new mechanic change won't only affect you but the other player as well. So if you mess up and are off the stage, then you are at a big disadvantage and have to work really hard to get back on but if they mess up, then the tables turn. Somehow no one had a problem with this when they played the past two games but somewhere along the line, its going to be more of a problem then it ever was in the past. You really got me there because I don't understand that logic.

Especially marth gets absolutely ******** with these changes. It would be **** near impossible to recover against marth as, say, CF.

Ok, stop right there. It would be near "impossible" to recover you say? Let us look at melee.

Melee is no doubt a much more difficult game than B+. Technically its hard plus there are also a bunch of other mechanics that Brawl+ doesn't have such as CC, l canceling, NADT, shield drop lag, roll ledge occuancy...Marth is also stronger than in Brawl+ but look at the matchup in melee. Its 50:50 until Falcon is off the stage then Marth has soo many options. But does this mean he can't come back? No. You have ledge teching (which really saves his *** since he can not safetly sweet spot) and he also has the Down B jump reset. Does this mean that he can't compete against Marth? No. So seeing how Falcon still has a fighting chance and can still recover in Melee which is a much harder game to do anything, given the right tools, I see no reason why Brawl+ it would be "impossible" but not in Melee. Oh yea, and his side b is also a viable recovery move as well so there really is no excuse.



You guys seriously need to open your eyes and realize what you have. This game helps you out in so many ways than before that I laugh when I see people stating things that weren't a problem in the past two games suddenly become a problem in a HACKABLE game! Melee didn't hold your hand. Melee didn't get in the way of the players. It gave you the tools to survive if you were good enough but Brawl+ is the exact opposite. You guys really have it easy and should be the last to *****.


EDIT:

However, just because it's rational and competitive to you, doesn't mean what they're suggesting isn't rational and competitive to them as well. Just because you don't see the rationale behind it doesn't mean it's not there. You're saying, it needs to be harder on the person recovering. Everyone agrees, however, they also think that it should take more work to get a gimp than what you're trying to make. Still makes it more competitive, but, competitive towards the side opposite your own. It makes getting gimps harder. Harder means more skill. More skill promotes more competition. What they're saying still is rational, and still promotes competitive play, they've just not gearing it towards the same side you are.

But the truth is its not more competitive. Read this post to understand what Competitive really means. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153322

In smash, you have to realize that there really is two games going on instead of one. You have the onstage game and the offstage game. The goal of the onstage game is to knock the other person off and the goal of the offstage game is to keep them off. You can really view this as two separate games combined into one great game and thus, your mechanics for both games must be solid if you want the whole game combined to be solid. Where one game lacks, the whole game suffers.

The smaller ledge range is more competitive because if you have two players where one is clearly more skilled than the other, then the ledge mechanics will support this fact because the better player will know how to recover and the worse player get gimped more often. With a bigger ledge range, the mechanic won't reflect this because its giving more help to the lesser skilled player. The smaller ledge mechanic is more competitive because the better player will come out on top more often as opposed to the more forgiving mechanic.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wow, 64 was brutal when it came to recovering.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Dammit kupo I want to be mad at you for saying anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a scrub but I liked the rest of your post too much

 

[proteininja]

I have been wall o texted into scrubdom

 

[Mattnumbers]

Also that 64 match you posted was great, it was really recent too. You could do some cool **** in 64.

 

[PKNintendo]

His posts are really sexy aren't they?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Kupo wins. lol

 

[kupo15]

I missed CJs post at the top so I added a small edit in

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Kupo wins. even if we made the ledge range 1/50 of the size it is now, it would be easier to recover than it was in melee. /sarcasm

But his post really was good. But what is roll ledge occuancy, exactly?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Kupo wins. even if we made the ledge range 1/50 of the size it is now, it would be easier to recover than it was in melee. /sarcasm

But his post really was good. But what is roll ledge occuancy, exactly?

That was a typo for occupancy, and it means you can't grab the ledge until they finish their roll.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Kupo wins. even if we made the ledge range 1/50 of the size it is now, it would be easier to recover than it was in melee. /sarcasm

But his post really was good. But what is roll ledge occuancy, exactly?

i think its how when you roll from a ledge ppl cant grab it.....at least, thats what it sounds like to me
Edit: Ninja'd

and.... sheild drop lag? i forgot about that xD
we need moar melee stuff(but edited for Brawl+)

just because its from Melee doesnt make it bad xD
the best argument ive ever heard is "this isnt Melee 2.0"
wich it pretty **** ******** if you ask me