Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Shadic]

Problem is...that wasn't the reason Sonic's momentum was toned down <_<

What was it?

 

[Dark Sonic]

It was kept low in brawl+ because high aerial momentum damages his game. Uair stops linking, crossing up with bair now has a lot more commitment and overall less utility (as you have to start further away from them and thus can't use it in as many situations. Sonic really like staying close to the opponent once he's actually gotten in), ASC loses some utility, ect, ect. A large part of Sonic's approach game is really just weaving through the opponent's known blindspots to attack and raising his momentum too high really hurts this.

We tried high momentum and it was terrible for his entire game. Fair wasn't the only problem <_<

Yeah <_<

Spoiler

10sonicmains

 

[Shadic]

Alright, I'll leave it to the Sonic mains. >_> Seems like most of those could be fixed with some move speedups (Bair), or hitbox changes (Uair.), though.

*Hopes for an uber-fast Sonic have died*

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

out of all the arguments and discussion since last build, alot of changes have came up
how many of these are actually going into the next one?
i cant even remember them all.
dodge reworking
mk stuff
footstool stuff
ledge size shrinking
slight hitlag addition
sheik fmash and multi hit move DI power
powersheilding(i think)
CC
EDIT: JC+ Grab
how could i forget

and much much more...

 

[Shadic]

Maybe putting frame-speed changes in PSA, we'll see if they're up to that task.

 

[DarkDragoon]

>_> I was going to put power shielding on my next Mewtwo build, I wasn't sure if WBR had the codes for that or not.
-DD

 

[kupo15]

If the game is too easy, simply play better opponents. Why does the game have to artificially make things challenging when the real fight should be against the other player?

Wow. Aren't you just a clown. You can have a really simple game with good opponents and the game still be very easy. Your just grabbing at anything you can get

You mean like, 1/2 staling? Or maybe even 3/4?.

Possibly less, like 1/8? Something small but that little bit does make the game more exciting for some reason. There must be a reason why just about every Fighting game has a stale moves system of some sort.

But what about the issues move staling had before? Like, Mario/Fox's u-tilt comboing into itself 4 or 5 times in a row, because of decreasing knockback due to staling. I guess individual moves could be modified to prevent this from happening, though

You also have to keep in mind that we played around with stale moves a long time ago. A long time ago means 12.75% hitstun! Also, stale moves also have stale hitstun. It isn't like the knockback is lowered and the hitstun remains the same.

I'm kinda hesitant about saying lowering hitstun would be a good idea because I don't know if it would screw over slow characters... maybe it wouldn't though? DK did okay-ish in Melee but he's obviously not all that slow.

Well, slow characters aren't really hitstun oriented characters generally because of how slow and strong they are. Some have good combos like ganon though. But Bowser really has poor combo skills (not sure how he is now) so lowering hitstun won't hurt them as much as adding some sort of Zoning mechanic will help them.

I also forgot to mention that lowering hitstun and adding Zoning mechanics don't just help balance the two types of characters (hitstun and string oriented), it also helps with match ups as well. You can have a character that can abuse hitstun well like Captain falcon but hitstun won't help him that much against characters like Jiggs and Samus because both are very hard to combo. They fly away further quicker and get out of hitstun earlier before he can catch up compared to say Fox or another Falcon. So there are some match ups that force you to play a very string based zoning game and what could be worse is playing an already stringed based character like Bowser and being forced into zoning much more than what he already has to do. Can you imagine how much more hell they would go through if you didn't have mechanics in place to help out the string based characters?

About hitstun being lowered...does that mean I lose my Sonic combos? Q_Q A lot of his combos are pretty borderline already and right now he plays very much like a combo oriented character, but because his bair is slow and his uair is inconsistent in linking (yet they're both his best aerials, go figure) he's really not all that good at continuing to pressure the opponent.

I have no idea. Adding some gravity would definitely help though. I also think that a better offstage game (ledges revamp) would help sonic out more.

Poor sonic just can't seem to be good at anything in any game he is in anymore.

Now if hitstun were only lowered a couple of frames (I'm hoping that's what you're asking for), then his combos would just become frame traps (where his attack will still come out before other characters' attacks), which I guess would be okay.

Yea, I guess just a few frames. Didn't leaf say that the difference between my old set and yours is one 1 maybe 2 frames despite being like 5% different?

I'm just afraid that similar borderline combo characters will suffer (we can rebalance them though <_<)

If you add in some zoning mechanics (aka NADT) that would help things out. Oh no. Here comes the "clack" argument. Its hard to add depth to a game without adding buttons. You don't see people complaining about Illusion canceling which requires more "clack" to perform. Oh well....

I think Magus was making them overall shorter, but also have less invincibility to vulnerability (ratio-wise) So they still dodge the move, but they're not getting around things like sex kicks/Ike's uair (I've actually seen someone dodge his entire uair once. Maybe I just spaced it wrong and the back of it wasn't on them as they got out the airdodge <_<)

So....no gravity trials?


EDIT:

Mch12: You forgot swimming changes and ledge teching and sliding techs

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Mch12: You forgot swimming changes and ledge teching and sliding techs

dang XD i bet theres still plenty of things that i (and you) didnt mention

are all these actually getting in the next nightly?(if not then what are)? or are we just hoping to put them in sometime.

 

[Shell]

I'd like to request that ganondorf be less...ridiculous, for lack of a better word. Who decided to let his aerial wizard kick be safe on block and comboable on hit? How could this possibly get past beta testing, much less several nightlies? Tone down the speed-up please.

4-frame startup on jab, bbrawl-style angle on up-b, untechable side-b, and FIX THE GOD**** UTILT. Right now it seems like ganon is a 2-trick pony. He has a bunch of abusable, stupid crap, and a bunch of worthless, stupid crap. Very little middle ground.

I'm working getting time to re-work the U-tilt, as much as many like it, it's hard to ignore it's flaws.

We're polishing up a nightly which has 7 frames of hitlag from 4 on the jab (this might even be too much) -- this should give you a bit more time to properly DI the move, and I'll be looking into subtle tweaks to it's animation and endlag.

The Quake has 28 frames of lag currently, certainly not safe on block. The thing about Ganondorf, is that if he starts getting predictable, you can punish him harder than most characters. If you suspect he'll throw out a WizKick, you can intercept it out of the air with virtually any attack, or just shield it. It's fast, yes, but if you try to spam it against a competent foe you won't get very far.

Other than adding a single frame of startup to jab, you don't seem to be really suggesting anything significant, let alone significant enough to truly take him from "2-trick pony" to deep character (not that I agree with this assessment) -- would you care to elaborate a bit more on what these problem moves are and what you'd do to them, then?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

There has NEVER been a nightly where Ganondorf's side-special has been untechable, even for those that said that it was untechable. I think another WBR confirmed that they never got that to work properly, but forgot to take it out of the change list that one time.

 

[Shell]

Well, technically, way back before we added in the new teching-system it wasn't techable in a WBR set.

 

[stingers]

i was at a tournament that Yeroc was at...and he had the WBR set on his Wii...and we ended up using it for the tournament...

so like every wii had the normal nightly except yeroc's...which had ganon's side b untechable lol. but nobody played ganon iirc so it didn't really matter

 

[timothyung]

I think teching in place might need to be buffed... you almost never tech in place. Tech rolling is almost always a better option.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

less momentum for C.Falcon. There too many times where i tried to do a neutral air, but I keep flying across the screen.

 

[Shadic]

No. Falcon's momentum is perfect.

 

[Revven]

I'm working getting time to re-work the U-tilt, as much as many like it, it's hard to ignore it's flaws.

I thought everybody agreed that we're gonna remove the Utilt IASA altogether because it's foreign to cancel such a weird *** move.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Well, slow characters aren't really hitstun oriented characters generally because of how slow and strong they are. Some have good combos like ganon though. But Bowser really has poor combo skills (not sure how he is now) so lowering hitstun won't hurt them as much as adding some sort of Zoning mechanic will help them.

I also forgot to mention that lowering hitstun and adding Zoning mechanics don't just help balance the two types of characters (hitstun and string oriented), it also helps with match ups as well. You can have a character that can abuse hitstun well like Captain falcon but hitstun won't help him that much against characters like Jiggs and Samus because both are very hard to combo. They fly away further quicker and get out of hitstun earlier before he can catch up compared to say Fox or another Falcon. So there are some match ups that force you to play a very string based zoning game and what could be worse is playing an already stringed based character like Bowser and being forced into zoning much more than what he already has to do. Can you imagine how much more hell they would go through if you didn't have mechanics in place to help out the string based characters?

It's true about characters like Jiggly and Samus, but Bowser and DDD do have some pretty decent combos in their current state. I do agree that they would be benefitted most by zoning mechanics though. How drastic of a change are we talking about for reducing hitstun? Like what is Brawl+ hitstun compared to Melee hitstun and where do you want to see Brawl+ hitstun?

 

[JCaesar]

The side-B is untechable

You aren't talking about the latest nightly are you? Because it is definitely techable right now.



But yeah, I agree that hitstun should be lowered a bit. I'm sure we can find some way to maintain the staple combos, IASA or whatever. I personally think ugrav (but not dgrav) should be increased a bit, so characters reach the apex of their jumps faster but not fall faster.

 

[Shell]

Oops, I meant techable. Late night reading iz not so gud ackshully.

Rework U-tilt = something different than the IASA, Falco400.

 

[kupo15]

dang XD i bet theres still plenty of things that i (and you) didnt mention
.

Your right there are:
No auto Jabs
No side b auto snaps

No. Falcon's momentum is perfect.

He could be bumped up to 100%

How drastic of a change are we talking about for reducing hitstun? Like what is Brawl+ hitstun compared to Melee hitstun and where do you want to see Brawl+ hitstun?

Well actually, I "think" that Melee's hitstun is Brawl's default of .4. This doesn't mean it would act like vbrawl because you would have .4 hitstun that is not cancelable instead of .4 hitstun that is cancelable

 

[MK26]

I'm working getting time to re-work the U-tilt, as much as many like it, it's hard to ignore it's flaws.

We're polishing up a nightly which has 7 frames of hitlag from 4 on the jab (this might even be too much) -- this should give you a bit more time to properly DI the move, and I'll be looking into subtle tweaks to it's animation and endlag.

The Quake has 28 frames of lag currently, certainly not safe on block. The thing about Ganondorf, is that if he starts getting predictable, you can punish him harder than most characters. If you suspect he'll throw out a WizKick, you can intercept it out of the air with virtually any attack, or just shield it. It's fast, yes, but if you try to spam it against a competent foe you won't get very far.

Other than adding a single frame of startup to jab, you don't seem to be really suggesting anything significant, let alone significant enough to truly take him from "2-trick pony" to deep character (not that I agree with this assessment) -- would you care to elaborate a bit more on what these problem moves are and what you'd do to them, then?

Hmmm...looking back at what i wrote, i worded that wrong...late-night writing johns?

What i meant was that, disregarding his utilt, jab and wizard kick, Ganon is a very decent fighter. Very momentum based, and the reward might be a bit much for being able to get in (with his good aerials doing anywhere from 13 to 22 damage, and several being able to combo from ground attacks). However, the risk-reward of Ganon gets completely skewed when you add an attack that is, for all intents and purposes, a punishment canceler. Not only is it safe (ridiculous amount of shieldstun), but also it makes other moves, moves that would otherwise put him in a bad position, unpunishable. Thus, roll --> jab being a true combo. His game essentially centres around covering every risk you take with a jab, which definitely shouldnt happen.

As for the wizard kick, the aerial version is the only one i have a problem with. I wasnt realy aware that the grounding hitbox could combo, and i just found it kinda weird...it's like saying you should be able to combo out of Kirby's rock at 0 :/

My point is that the jab far and away overshadows the rest of his game. It can reset situations that otherwise would have put ganon under pressure. It provides for him a great tool in a situation where he shouldnt really have any tools: directly after he screws up. Get rid of it and you can focus on the rest of his game.

 

[Roxas215]

If the game is too easy, simply play better opponents. Why does the game have to artificially make things challenging when the real fight should be against the other player?

You act like were discussing noobs. Pro players are saying the game is too easy. Nl,Kizzle,Termina, Just to name a few.

 

[Stevo]

Donkey Kong would be hurt if hitstun was lowered. cargo to up air would not work anymore (its much harder to pull off then in melee as it is now) and a couple of his other combos would not work as well.

may I ask the reasoning behind less hitstun? just cause the game is "too easy"?

 

[kupo15]

^^^^Have you not been reading everything fully? If hitstun is lowered and certain important combos like what you said don't work anymore, you can do something to fix it. Granted, that is if the said combo that used to work before was supposed to work on the character it should. If that combo works on Jiggs and people cry about it because it doesn't anymore, than wow.

 

[jalued]

^^^^Have you not been reading everything fully? If hitstun is lowered and certain important combos like what you said don't work anymore, you can do something to fix it. Granted, that is if the said combo that used to work before was supposed to work on the character it should. If that combo works on Jiggs and people cry about it because it doesn't anymore, than wow.

why not just alter the hitstun of moves that are causing probs for people? some moves seem to hae almost no hitstun at all sometimes.

 

[Swordplay]

this is probably the one and only instance I agree with kupo. (Still against NADT)

when you think about it......Who dominates the game? Small characters who are hard to combo or combo machines.

Any other type of character such as spacing characters (basically big characters and sword characters to some extend) are completely overshadowed. What we've been focusing on is trying to just buff those types of characters a tremendous amount so they can survive i a game that doesn't really fit them well.

Its a Fundamental mechanic debate and while I do agree that hit stun should be lowered a tiny bit to allow these characters to work properly instead of insanely buffing them, I also am in the party that the game is already so far developed that it would be a huge step back to change a fundamental mechanic.

When you get down to it though, individual hitstun could help partially solve this problem

 

[Mattnumbers]

Brawl+ is not "way too far in" to be changed, it's existed for less than a year. And it's only existed with its current mechanics for like 6 months.

 

[jalued]

but surely there are 2 ways to go with making the game more fun and challenging? reducing hitstun, or making the gameplay more challenging... melee did it with difficulty level (wavedashing, speed, highish hitstun etc), and brawl went for the completley opposite route, slow gameplay, low hitstun, lack of AT.

now which game do people prefere??

surely we should make the game have a harder learning curve, bring in more mechanics, or just alter certain moves hitstun rather than just make it an "airdodge out of everything" type game

for example, fox used to be incredibly easy to play, so he was given JCS, and his dair (main move) was nerfed so that it requires more skill to use... and hey presto, a fox that is still good, but has a higher learning curve, more depth and is overall fun!

 

[Magus420]

Moves don't have a special hitstun value to adjust. It's based on launch speed.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I'm just sad that people say "Melee 2.0" as an insult. If brawl had been Melee 2.0 it would have been way better. Although if it had been a new smash game BETTER than Melee and still fairly different that of course would be the best.

I didn't even dislike vBrawl all that much till I got into brawl+, and I'm still not sure if it's just group psychology or finally realizing just how slow vBrawl really is, but I can't even really play it now.

 

[kupo15]

why not just alter the hitstun of moves that are causing probs for people? some moves seem to hae almost no hitstun at all sometimes.

I think that is unnecessary not to mention it will be highly debated and opinionated as to which moves should be changed. I also don't think it works that way either. The best thing to do is too lower everything as a whole then tweak moves or add mechanics or w/e to fix it.

Its a Fundamental mechanic debate and while I do agree that hit stun should be lowered a tiny bit to allow these characters to work properly instead of insanely buffing them, I also am in the party that the game is already so far developed that it would be a huge step back to change a fundamental mechanic.

It really isn't too late at all. I'm not sure if you read Leaf's post but these mechanics were thought about long ago but we simply did not have the tools to implement them. Revamping and adding in solid mechanics is never a step back for any game but rather will really launch the game ahead.

When you get down to it though, individual hitstun could help partially solve this problem

Oh yea, I completely forgot how ****ed up the gravity is and how its inconsistent throughout instead of universal dgrav which causes hitstun to act really wack and not the way its supposed too. So making another code because of this decision to have a nonuniform gravity change would definitely help things out. It may need more lowering though but who knows

but surely there are 2 ways to go with making the game more fun and challenging? reducing hitstun, or making the gameplay more challenging... melee did it with difficulty level (wavedashing, speed, highish hitstun etc), and brawl went for the completley opposite route, slow gameplay, low hitstun, lack of AT.

I'm going to take a wild stab at this but I don't think Melee's combos was based around wavedashing when the game was made. And you really think Melee had high hitstun? Then what is Brawl+? Super high hitstun? Melee definitely has less hitstun than B+

I'm just sad that people say "Melee 2.0" as an insult. If brawl had been Melee 2.0 it would have been way better.

I wish we realized this back when the project started. We all felt that B+ didn't need to be Melee 2.0 but some, like myself, have changed our minds and some still disagree. (Even though Melee 2.0 in brawl wouldn't be Melee 2.0 anyway like I said a while back)

 

[jalued]

Moves don't have a special hitstun value to adjust. It's based on launch speed.

well why not do it in a intellectual way? i shudder to think that B+ will play anything like brawl, god that game is so boring casue u cant combo. surely there is another way, there are so many combos atm that i am annoyed u cant follow up with. dont see how this would make the game any funner... just more fustrating and bitty as before.

 

[Magus420]

In addition to changing the hitstun itself, you can increase/decrease comboability by adjusting the cooldown of the lead in move (IASA, or landing lag), the character's physics to be able to reach their location sooner/later, or startup of the followup move. You can lower hitstun without removing combos.

 

[kupo15]

In addition to changing the hitstun itself, you can increase/decrease comboability by adjusting the cooldown of the lead in move (IASA, or landing lag), the character's physics to be able to reach their location sooner/later, or startup of the followup move. You can lower hitstun without removing combos.

Listen to this man. He knows what he is talking about.

Holy shi*.

I want people to look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hUh3FyFWvM&feature=channel_page (1:10) look at the green fox and tell me its easy to edge guard in melee. Who came out on top?

 

[jalued]

Listen to this man. He knows what he is talking about.

Holy shi*.

I want people to look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hUh3FyFWvM&feature=channel_page (1:10) look at the green fox and tell me its easy to edge guard in melee. Who came out on top?

what about reducing hitstun, but increasing gameplay speed slightly?

 

[kupo15]

what about reducing hitstun, but increasing gameplay speed slightly?

Well, reducing hitstun will automatically increase game speed slightly, but how would you increase game speed in addition to that? There are several options

 

[GHNeko]

I think ledge teching should increase in distance teched with each successful and consecutive tech in a row.

That way, you cant simply tech forever, it puts a sort of pressure on the recover..er...to get back onto stage sooner, and eventually, you'd want NOT to tech.

That or you can have the distance traveled from ledge teching scale with damage so at higher percents, it might not always be a good choice to tech, and teching constantly at low percents not only increases your damage, but makes you travel farther with each tech.

Adds more "intensity" to the recovery spectrum imo.

</nekocreativity>

Okay. 3rd time is teh charm. :V

EDIT: Also, what I think would be a good idea to do, is if we port over ATs/Techs from 64 (lolwut) or Melee, plussing said AT/Tech up would probably help in terms of compromise.

EX: JC+ Grabs which is a plussed version of JC Grab, and Ledge-Teching+ which is a plussed version of the Melee varient. In a fashion like that, we can add ATs with some semblance of the original intent and a less dominent tactic or without changing something of Brawl/Brawl+ too much that it has to be fought against.

Taking techs and mechanics from either game and gearing it slightly towards the other. :V

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

The thing about Brawl+ is that unlike the ground-based game that is melee, Brawl+ often leads to edge guarding scenarios much more quickly. Melee stages were bigger, characters were smaller, and hitstun was, i guess, a bit lower. This means that gameplay was mostly confined to the stage and when you finally did get someone to the ledge, it normally meant death.

Brawl+ is different in that respect in that stages are smaller, moves generally send much farther, there's more hitstun, recoveries are much more forgiving/safer and characters are floatier. This means that the players experience off stage exchanges much more frequently than in Melee, and unlike Melee, an 'exchange' can take place off stage as well, and a character that does get knocked off can usually get back to the ledge safely. If we were to suddenly change the ledge game to be as punishable as Melee's, you would break the balance that we've worked towards these past few months using Brawl+'s existing mechanics. Brawl+'s combos/strings are frequently getting you off stage, if we were to suddenly shift it so that off edge = death, the game would change drastically.

I'm not saying this is bad direction to go, but it's not just a simple matter of making edges more punishable. You have to take a look at the core of the game, and in Brawl+'s current state, there's muuuch more you'd have to change; a complete overhaul of not just the metagame, but a change of stage size, character speeds, knockback adjustments would be required. Not to mention a lot of work put into balancing the game around the EXISTING changes we've made over the past few months would need an overhaul as well. So yes, this means, back to square one.

 

[kupo15]

Okay. 3rd time is teh charm. :V

EDIT: Also, what I think would be a good idea to do, is if we port over ATs/Techs from 64 (lolwut) or Melee, plussing said AT/Tech up would probably help in terms of compromise.

EX: JC+ Grabs which is a plussed version of JC Grab, and Ledge-Teching+ which is a plussed version of the Melee varient. In a fashion like that, we can add ATs with some semblance of the original intent and a less dominent tactic or without changing something of Brawl/Brawl+ too much that it has to be fought against.

Taking techs and mechanics from either game and gearing it slightly towards the other. :V

I'm sorry but I don't follow. So each tech you puts your further from the stage? So like,

Tech
Warp 5 character lengths off the stage
Recover?

Somehow making teching arbitrarily bad or getting bad sounds bad. The only thing I could possibly see is give Wall techs momentum the same way ground techs do but I'm not sure. Also, the higher % goes, the harder it is to ledge tech and that just means that you need to mix up your edge guarding. Leaf summed this up nicely.

Also, increasing wall jump techs as % goes up also won't do much seeing how you can use an up/side b to cancel all momentum at any time. It seems like your trying to make something that isn't a problem a problem so you can fix it.

What 64 ATs are there? The only ones left I can find is

Z/L canceling (L canceling+ would be giving a punishment window so it can't be spammed)
You can dash off ledges backwards (not like it matters with reverse grabbing)
Taunt canceling (yea...whatever)
SDI into the ledge for recovery

I also think that removing tether hogging would be good also. Then you can also remove Ivy's infinite Up b thing if he still has it


EDIT:

I disagree Jiang. I don't feel that the off stage and ledge game will ever reach the intensity of melee's. Recoveries are better and you have infinite air dodges and reverse grabbing, no roll occupancy either. I also don't quite see how a change to the off stage game will have a drastic effect on the onstage game either. What I feel you mentioned in your last paragraph is if you wanted to overhaul the onstage game, not the off stage game because changing the ledges to be harder will only demand smarter recovering.

 

[MK26]

I also think that removing tether hogging would be good also. Then you can also remove Ivy's infinite Up b thing if he still has it.

rofl

we got rid of that months ago

And honestly, once we get these new mechanics in place, taking a step back could be just what this project needs, starting with slightly lower hitstun, 5 dead frames after an air/side/spot dodge in which you cannot airdodge again/shield, and a revamp to the ledge game, including Ledgetech+ (whatever that turns out to be), and a smaller ledgegrab range (but still large enough that a perfect sweetspot is safe from most moves).

Point is, if we change something, change alot. Not just one small thing. Everything works fine now, and changing just a little will be more of a hindrance than a help.