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[shanus]

I've been trying to do my fair share of reevaluating characters who have over-centralized metagames or are fairly "autocombo" in nature and de-centralizing it through additoin of char-specific ATs to keep them at identical playing levels but require more skill.

Example: Fox JC Shine

In the works:
Ness DJC with other tradeoffs
Falco SHL w/ FF instead of SHDL
Yoshi DJC (maybe?)


Regarding ledgeteching. I don't have much time, but I have already referenced specific wall-collision functions I discovered in the past. Someone is more than free to try and make it and send me it, my free time is super limited.

 

[zxeon]

All I hear is nerf to Ness' Fair range. Tell me it ain't so.

 

[Dan_X]

I've been trying to do my fair share of reevaluating characters who have over-centralized metagames or are fairly "autocombo" in nature and de-centralizing it through additoin of char-specific ATs to keep them at identical playing levels but require more skill.

Example: Fox JC Shine

In the works:
Ness DJC with other tradeoffs
Falco SHL w/ FF instead of SHDL
Yoshi DJC (maybe?)


Regarding ledgeteching. I don't have much time, but I have already referenced specific wall-collision functions I discovered in the past. Someone is more than free to try and make it and send me it, my free time is super limited.

Would Falco's lasers be DIable when firing them? Also, if SHDL is removed, I'm willing to try it out, as I will have to relearn my character--- I'd have to tune my muscle memory to a different laser game. However, if the SHDL is removed buff the laser damage. It should atleast be back to 3damage a shot as it was before. The reason it was nerfed in the first place was because he had such a powerful projectile spamming game, able to wall most characters all day. It only made sense to nerf the lasers a tad at that point.

Removing the SHDL is a nerf no matter how you look at it. Falco could already do SHL if be wanted to. This would simply deduct from Falco's laser game. To compensate for this he'd need DIable lasers, damage buff on lasers as you are firing them at half the rate previously possible.

While we're at it, we ma as well look at his shine's lower hitboxes. Though the shine's animation appears to touch crouching or crawling enemies the hitboxes don't actually effect the enemy. The hitbox should be at least as large as the animation. It's really annoying that his shine works inconsistently in that sense. With more lag on his shine it's already more punishable as is, the least it can do is hit the enemy when the animation overlaps them. It's nonsensical.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm sorry but I don't follow. So each tech you puts your further from the stage? So like,

Tech
Warp 5 character lengths off the stage
Recover?

Somehow making teching arbitrarily bad or getting bad sounds bad. The only thing I could possibly see is give Wall techs momentum the same way ground techs do but I'm not sure. Also, the higher % goes, the harder it is to ledge tech and that just means that you need to mix up your edge guarding. Leaf summed this up nicely.

Also, increasing wall jump techs as % goes up also won't do much seeing how you can use an up/side b to cancel all momentum at any time. It seems like your trying to make something that isn't a problem a problem so you can fix it.

I was thinking along the lines of

Tech
Extra lag/wait time before you can do anything
Recover

So with every consecutive tech within x seconds (option 1), you'd simply fall further and further away with each tech. :x

And I didn't say increase wall jump techs with %s. I said your tech distance is based off percents, like KBG, the higher the percent, the further you fall away from. (option 2)

And all I was doing was trying to find a way to create a sort of compromise with ledgeteching, as people do have a point that with ledgeteching, there's never a reason not to tech because it puts you in a better position/scenario/spot/etc than if you hadn't ledgeteched, pretty much putting it in the same category as L-Canceling.

I was trying to shape it so that it's not always a good option. It'd still be the best at first but..

Option 1: As you continued to do it, your postion gradually worsens itself.
Option 2: It would only be the best option at 0-Mid percents, and at higher ones, its use would be iffy, and most ledge techs would natually occur around mid-high percent range as well.

I have no real issue with ledge teching, except the fact its like JC Grabs and L-Canceling. You have little reason, arguably none, not to use it and its pretty much the best option super majority of the time. Implimenting that would feel kinda...hypocritcal towards L-Canceling and odd since we can impliment JC+ but not Ledge Tech+ (if its possible)

:x

 

[kupo15]

rofl

Your forgetting the fact that only one person can occupy a ledge. If you are on the ledge and a tether grabs it and tries to zip up to the ledge, they won't auto sweet spot but instead they will do what you saw in melee which is do a little tether jump thingy which could leave them open. Another thing. I'm not sure how it works, but I remember that really close to the ledge, tethers get invincibility. Is this due to snapping to the ledge? If so, then a smaller ledge grab would also help this new proposal out because you hanging on the ledge and them below you on a rope isn't exactly a great position either. You could drop and do a sex kick which will hit them if they try to zip up. IIRC this wasn't very effective because they can get invincibility really quickly because of a large sweet spot range.

we got rid of that months ago

Good

Also another idea. Something I thought of. I am pretty sure that Brawl has an extra added animation over melee when dealing with the ledge. I think Brawl has a "pregrab" animation and an actual "ledge grabbing" animation. Seeing how the ledge will get smaller, there really is no need to keep this "pregrab" animation that occurs at the edge of the ledge range currently. And also with a shorter grab range, this won't look very odd as well seeing how melee and heck, even 64 didn't even have it. If you look at videos of both games, you basically see them in the air, and then on the ledge whereas brawl has an animation associated with it. This could be part of the problem of what gives Brawl ledges more range or seemingly more range.

This is just a theory so I am not sure if I'm right.

Shanus: Are you going to give FF and DI to all lasers, fireballs and thundershocks as well?

 

[stingers]

You could just make it so that every ledgetech is a walljump tech...

 

[Dan_X]

Shanus: Are you going to give FF and DI to all lasers, fireballs and thundershocks as well?

May aswell.

If Falco loses his SHDL he needs:
buffed laser damage (at least 3dmg like he originally had)
DIable lasers
FF lasers

and as I mentioned in my previous post, his shine's lower hitboxes should be evaluated.

 

[GHNeko]

Mmmmmmm.........

FF/DIable Fireballs.....

 

[kupo15]

I was thinking along the lines of

Tech
Extra lag/wait time before you can do anything
Recover

So with every consecutive tech within x seconds, you'd simply fall further and further away with each tech. :x

Eeek. That sounds terrible. You do realize that you will just cripple wall techs as a whole even on stages with walls? I don't think wall tech lag is a good idea at all.

And all I was doing was trying to find a way to create a sort of compromise with ledgeteching, as people do have a point that with ledgeteching, there's never a reason not to tech because it puts you in a better position/scenario/spot/etc than if you hadn't ledgeteched, pretty much putting it in the same category as L-Canceling.

Oh boy, here it goes again with the mind shutting off at techniques like this. Its not exactly in the same category. Its similar though. The main difference is that wall teching is somewhat more of a necessity to the game to keep things from being OP. L canceling is not so much one (I guess) seeing how you guys are getting away with murder ALR. You can't automate wall teching at all because that will do much more harm.

Also, you have an additional choice to wall tech jump instead giving more possible outcomes. You can also chose where on the wall you want to tech as long as you stay in tumble. You have much more options and freedom with wall teching so you can't really classify it as the "same as l canceling therefore it must have a punishment."

I was trying to shape it so that it's not always a good option. It'd still be the best at first but..

Option 1: As you continued to do it, your postion gradually worsens itself.
Option 2: It would only be the best option at 0-Mid percents, and at higher ones, its use would be iffy, and most ledge techs would natually occur around mid-high percent range as well.

The only problem with this is that there will be a point when ledge teching simply won't work anymore so that performing a wall tech or getting hit without a wall tech will yield the same result. This makes the system favor the edge guarder instead of how it worked in melee where the winner of the struggle was entirely based on the skills of the player. There is nothing wrong with being able to wall tech 50 marth dtilts because the edge guarder is being very predictable instead of mixing in some weak hits or different trajectories.

Wall teching is "the best option all the time" because that really is the only option you have when in that situation. There is no other edge AT to compete against ledge teching. This isn't entirely bad though because ledge teching does have a trade off system already built in. The more you ledge tech, the more damage you get and after 50 dtilt ledge techs, you really are not going to last that long on stage anyway. So are you really at an advantage by being a coward and ledge teching the same move forever or would it behoove of you to take as risk and try another way to get back?

 

[shanus]

Neko, stop calling it ledgetech+ because its a very awkward (and ugly) idea.

Kupo, applying it to every projectile is technically possibly, but also very very demanding. There is currently no known function to place a character in a fast fall state, so instead I need to add a function which turns a variable to on after they have reaches the peak of their jump (in frames) or are in the fall state to enable a momentum set if they press down during their aerial. This would mean I would need to fine tune by frames, momentum speed, and frame input for the FF projectile on a per character basis.

 

[Shell]

Would Falco's lasers be DIable when firing them? Also, if SHDL is removed, I'm willing to try it out, as I will have to relearn my character--- I'd have to tune my muscle memory to a different laser game. However, if the SHDL is removed buff the laser damage. It should atleast be back to 3damage a shot as it was before. The reason it was nerfed in the first place was because he had such a powerful projectile spamming game, able to wall most characters all day. It only made sense to nerf the lasers a tad at that point.

Removing the SHDL is a nerf no matter how you look at it. Falco could already do SHL if be wanted to. This would simply deduct from Falco's laser game. To compensate for this he'd need DIable lasers, damage buff on lasers as you are firing them at half the rate previously possible.

While we're at it, we ma as well look at his shine's lower hitboxes. Though the shine's animation appears to touch crouching or crawling enemies the hitboxes don't actually effect the enemy. The hitbox should be at least as large as the animation. It's really annoying that his shine works inconsistently in that sense. With more lag on his shine it's already more punishable as is, the least it can do is hit the enemy when the animation overlaps them. It's nonsensical.

It seems like you might be neglecting the implied SH FF and Cancel on landing Laser in "SHL" -- the speed and utility of this is, as you know, much different than the current vBrawl SH............(yawn)............ Laser. He can't really do the SHL that we're talking about already. For the purpose of clarity (and at the risk of raising almost certain stigma ) I'll refer to them as "Melee Lasers" if that helps.

With that said, we will certainly watch the overall balance of him -- the purpose is to polish and spice up without drastically affecting overall effectiveness, as Shanus said.

 

[GHNeko]

Eeek. That sounds terrible. You do realize that you will just cripple wall techs as a whole even on stages with walls? I don't think wall tech lag is a good idea at all.

Like I said. It was nothing more but an idea. I'm not actually trying to push for it.


Oh boy, here it goes again with the mind shutting off at techniques like this. Its not exactly in the same category. Its similar though. The main difference is that wall teching is somewhat more of a necessity to the game to keep things from being OP. L canceling is not so much one (I guess) seeing how you guys are getting away with murder ALR. You can't automate wall teching at all because that will do much more harm.

Well, I don't considering it a "mind shutt off at techs" or whatever. I looked at it in a more general fashion for that one post though. :x


Also, you have an additional choice to wall tech jump instead giving more possible outcomes. You can also chose where on the wall you want to tech as long as you stay in tumble. You have much more options and freedom with wall teching so you can't really classify it as the "same as l canceling therefore it must have a punishment."

I didn't call it exactly the same. I called it pretty similar. If I worded as such, then I apologize because I didn't mean to make it seem like I was calling them exactly the same, as once again, I was looking at it in a general fashion.


The only problem with this is that there will be a point when ledge teching simply won't work anymore so that performing a wall tech or getting hit without a wall tech will yield the same result. This makes the system favor the edge guarder instead of how it worked in melee where the winner of the struggle was entirely based on the skills of the player. There is nothing wrong with being able to wall tech 50 marth dtilts because the edge guarder is being very predictable instead of mixing in some weak hits or different trajectories.

I understand this and agree. Like I said, I have no real issue with ledgeteching, I was just trying to find middle ground for everyone.

Wall teching is "the best option all the time" because that really is the only option you have when in that situation. There is no other edge AT to compete against ledge teching. This isn't entirely bad though because ledge teching does have a trade off system already built in. The more you ledge tech, the more damage you get and after 50 dtilt ledge techs, you really are not going to last that long on stage anyway.

k.

Neko, stop calling it ledgetech+ because its a very awkward (and ugly) idea.

kk.


god **** you 10character limit

 

[kupo15]

Neko, stop calling it ledgetech+ because its a very awkward (and ugly) idea.

Kupo, applying it to every projectile is technically possibly, but also very very demanding. There is currently no known function to place a character in a fast fall state, so instead I need to add a function which turns a variable to on after they have reaches the peak of their jump (in frames) or are in the fall state to enable a momentum set if they press down during their aerial. This would mean I would need to fine tune by frames, momentum speed, and frame input for the FF projectile on a per character basis.

Sounds like a pain. But you really should only do it to fireballs/lasers and thundershocks...at least initially which only limits that to..what...6 chars?

 

[KOkingpin]

I've been trying to do my fair share of reevaluating characters who have over-centralized metagames or are fairly "autocombo" in nature and de-centralizing it through additoin of char-specific ATs to keep them at identical playing levels but require more skill.

Example: Fox JC Shine

In the works:
Ness DJC with other tradeoffs
Falco SHL w/ FF instead of SHDL
Yoshi DJC (maybe?)


Regarding ledgeteching. I don't have much time, but I have already referenced specific wall-collision functions I discovered in the past. Someone is more than free to try and make it and send me it, my free time is super limited.

Please dont make Yoshi with DCJ. he is a million times better without it. I play yoshi in Melee and Brawl. Please dont do this. The way he is built now is better without it. (atleast I feel like it would be better)

 

[shanus]

Well you can do rising aerials depending on if you hold the jump button down or not. Yoshi mains choice, not mine

 

[kupo15]

Please dont make Yoshi with DCJ. he is a million times better without it. I play yoshi in Melee and Brawl. Please dont do this. The way he is built now is better without it. (atleast I feel like it would be better)

Are you serious? Having a mechanic that will allow you to stop at any height and FF at the cost of a DJ is bad? Do you have any idea how much worse yoshi would have been in melee without this? I'm sure you can hook up a DJC+ so that way if you are holding jump during the initial DJ then you will cancel it otherwise no. This seriously is a great buff to Yoshi's combo game that you simply don't want? >_<



FYI: I added the mechanics discussed to my OP so you can reference and not forget

 

[shanus]

Camelot made the code for it where if you release the jump button and press A, it cancels momentum and goes into the aerial, but if you hold the jump button while pressing A it does the normal rising aerial.

 

[Stevo]

I guess I change my vote to lower hitstun slightly, as long as people are willing to go back and re-tweak many combos. (not that my vote counts really)

Optional DJC seems pretty cool actually.

does anyone play olimar?

 

[Dan_X]

It seems like you might be neglecting the implied SH FF and Cancel on landing Laser in "SHL" -- the speed and utility of this is, as you know, much different than the current vBrawl SH............(yawn)............ Laser. He can't really do the SHL that we're talking about already. For the purpose of clarity (and at the risk of raising almost certain stigma ) I'll refer to them as "Melee Lasers" if that helps.

With that said, we will certainly watch the overall balance of him -- the purpose is to polish and spice up without drastically affecting overall effectiveness, as Shanus said.

I'm not going to beat around the bush... I never played Melee competitively. I didn't even know of SWF at that point in time. I've seen plenty of melee tourney matches on YouTube, so from this I suppose I understand how Falcos lasers were in melee. The only thing is... I myself have never played Falco like that in melee because I was a scrub back then. I'm not opposed to Falco playing mor like his melee self, I'm actually excited. It's just I don't really know what playing in his melee form means to the fullest because I never have.

Either way, as I said. DIable lasers, FF, and 3dmg would make this worth while.

 

[camelot]

I'm sure you can hook up a DJC+ so that way if you are holding jump during the initial DJ then you will cancel it otherwise no.

I've already done it, with both Ness and Yoshi.

 

[kupo15]

If I were a WBR, I would steal it and put it in. You only have the cancel for the scoop part of the double jump?

Camelot, how are you so genius at PSA? I approve!

 

[shanus]

If I were a WBR, I would steal it and put it in. You only have the cancel for the scoop part of the double jump?

Camelot, how are you so genius at PSA? I approve!

Both will be in the next build.

 

[Alphatron]

With the way current ledges are, ledgeteching, from what I understand, would be pretty terrible. This is basically forcing the ledge size to be decreased regardless.

And it's probably just me, but I'm starting to question our creativity when it comes to adding techs...

Edit: Shanus, does DJC also work with the control stick?

 

[GHNeko]

With the way current ledges are, ledgeteching, from what I understand, would be pretty terrible. This is basically forcing the ledge size to be decreased regardless.

And it's probably just me, but I'm starting to question our creativity when it comes to adding techs...

H-Hey! I take offense to that!

 

[Alphatron]

H-Hey! I take offense to that!

lol. That doesn't apply to you Neko.

 

[camelot]

You only have the cancel for the scoop part of the double jump?

Huh?

101010

 

[SymphonicSage12]

My opinions on the last several posts:

1.Please don't add in manual l-cancelling. I really have no basis for this, I'm just biased for ALR. D:

2. I would really love ledgeteching ( or wallteching or whatever you call it), but only if the ledges are reduced as well.

3. DJC! yay! Please add this in the next build.

4. This doesn't matter (at all), but taunt cancelling so that the desired SFX still plays. I did this with my falcon by allowing an interrupt 1 frame after the "show me ya moves!" starts..... I just defeated my own point, didn't I?

 

[kupo15]

Huh?

101010

I'm pretty sure in melee and 64, you could only DJC during the dip part of the DJ as in, you can't DJC in the middle of the DJ, only at the beginning where the swoop happens

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yep, that's exactly right, Kupo.

 

[camelot]

Yeah, I can set it so it can only DJC during the "swoop".

What about Ness's? His canceled from anywhere in the jump, right?

 

[kupo15]

He also has a swoop and acts just like Yoshis

Shanus. Both what? DJC and....?

Also, what about the several other mechanics that have been discussed?

 

[Sails]

I'm for Manual L Canceling. It adds some kind of skill requirement to what is already a combo-fest/noob-friendly game that Brawl+ already is.

 

[shanus]

He also has a swoop and acts just like Yoshis

Shanus. Both what? DJC and....?

Also, what about the several other mechanics that have been discussed?

As in both get DJC in the next build.

In terms of making new ATs, I made a working Footstool Meteor Cancel code with punishment window, but haven't done much with it after I made it lol.

We have a working version of JC+ grabs, but aren't sure what to do with them. They have substantially more lag on missed grab, but they get a BIG slide when performing the grab to the point where I think it might enable new CGs for different chars.

From what I understand, leafgreen was unable to make a code which remapped the footstool jump input.


Haven't tested anything with my discovery of what I believe to be a wall collision function.

 

[MK26]

We have a working version of JC+ grabs, but aren't sure what to do with them. They have substantially more lag on missed grab, but they get a BIG slide when performing the grab to the point where I think it might enable new CGs for different chars.

From what I understand, leafgreen was unable to make a code which remapped the footstool jump input.

@ #1) decrease hitstun a bit to compensate?

@ #2) Awww, no double-tap footstool?

 

[CloneHat]

If you don't like tethers, you could just make part of their animation slower, or force them to move to the ledge once they grapple.

I don't really think hitstun needs to be reduced, but some characters having stupid "DIY" combos (uthrow>2 utilts>2 uairs, etc.) pisses me off.

 

[Stevo]

I'm for Manual L Canceling. It adds some kind of skill requirement to what is already a combo-fest/noob-friendly game that Brawl+ already is.

That is not the route Brawl+ will take.

I dont think you can convince anyone for that.

 

[Sails]

That is not the route Brawl+ will take.

I dont think you can convince anyone for that.

A single change like that doesn't mean the future will be an entirely different route. You act like it'd be the end of the world.

 

[bob-e]

While I'm really excited to see SHFF laser make Falco a little more interesting to play, I think it's going to be a small nerf no matter how you look at it. Falco can currently put out 2 lasers in 36 frames, plus 2 frames of landing lag. Assuming the SHFF laser mod won't change the timing of anything else, we're looking at 1 laser every 26 frames, with 4 frames of lag from the FF. That's not to say Falco won't be able to get by without SHDL, he'll probably still be able to wall out fatties just fine, his damage output just won't be as good.

Also, his shine hitbox could use a bit of a size increase, it currently doesn't even fill the inner hexagon. It shouldn't be so large that it completely scrapes the ground, but just big enough that the only characters who can get under it are the ones who actually look short enough to fit, like crouching Snake, Squirtle, Kirby, and Jiggs.

And why is manual L-canceling coming up again? It's a mindless AT that adds nothing to the game other than an extra button press on every aerial landing. And don't even try pulling the skill or depth card. There was never any reason not to do it, and it wasn't even hard; almost anyone could have it down perfect with a week of practice.

 

[Roxas215]

The fact that people are so against adding manual l canceling(something that would add technical skill that is vastly missing from the game) But are for some of the dumb quirky additions that are already added into the game(lucario attacking out of up b anyone) Is so dumb. This is what happens when you let the community have too much of a input.(Im not talking to anyone directly)

Fact is this game as of now is too easy. Yes i know the basic nature of the game is suppose to be pick up and play but the fact is we want this to be a tournament viable game.


Hitlag should be lowered(a little) But it should also be char specific as it would mess up alot of chars combos.

The whole ledgeteching thing i think is a little weird and i would need to test it out before i have a opinion on it. But if it adds more skill/options then it should at least be looked at.

Hopefully after hackfest the players will have a list on what they think needs to be done.

 

[kupo15]

And why is manual L-canceling coming up again? It's a mindless AT that adds nothing to the game other than an extra button press on every aerial landing. And don't even try pulling the skill or depth card. There was never any reason not to do it, and it wasn't even hard; almost anyone could have it down perfect with a week of practice.

I hear all the time in melee tourney vids "L canceling is super important" Don't miss any L cancels" "He is just missing his L cancels" ect Melee people realize how important it is to the game, Brawl people are just too stubborn to realize it I guess.

The fact that people are so against adding manual l canceling(something that would add technical skill that is vastly missing from the game) But are for some of the dumb quirky additions that are already added into the game(lucario attacking out of up b anyone) Is so dumb. This is what happens when you let the community have too much of a input.(Im not talking to anyone directly)

Fact is this game as of now is too easy. Yes i know the basic nature of the game is suppose to be pick up and play but the fact is we want this to be a tournament viable game.


Hitlag should be lowered(a little) But it should also be char specific as it would mess up alot of chars combos.

The whole ledgeteching thing i think is a little weird and i would need to test it out before i have a opinion on it. But if it adds more skill/options then it should at least be looked at.

Hopefully after hackfest the players will have a list on what they think needs to be done.

This.

It would be cool if a perfected l cancel code would come out for people to play with and possibly add to their tournies for trial. But that is just wishful thinking.


Shanus: What about the others like swimming, ADs, CC+, sliding techs, no auto jabs stuff?