Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[stingers]

This IASA thing is stupid. Why? It accomplishes the same goal as ALR but makes Brawl+ look really choppy. Imagine what a match would look like with this IASA ****.

 

[timothyung]

This is a great idea. Here is what I think should be your starting trial version of a cleaner AD system:

-Remove the frame changes making all ADes back to default
-Give IASA for all moves except another AD (This is what melee did to spot dodges and is what leaf just suggested)
-Make DGRAV much less to minimize the downward travel to approx Melee length
-Loss of FF momentum
-Still unlimited numb of ADes

Would this be too extreme? You would be able to float back to the stage with this. To prevent it being used to extend recovery length, I think we should

-Remove the frame changes making all ADes back to default cause of Brawl+ gravity
-Give IASA for all moves except another AD (This is what melee did to spot dodges and is what leaf just suggested)
-Make DGRAV much less to minimize the downward travel to approx Melee length
-Loss of FF momentum
-Still unlimited numb of ADes

 

[thesage]

We're not playing this game with psychic powers.

You're not a true Ness main then.

But srsly, I also think the IASA landing lag for aerials is dumb. It just makes the animations look choppier while accomplishing what we already have.

I could care less what happens though since I don't usually look at my character except when I'm recovering.

I also don't like the direction the WBR is taking with moves like airdodging and sidestepping. Giving everybody the same sidestep/airdodge makes the characters more generalized. Compare the airdodges/sidestep frame data between characters in melee and you'll see there's way more diversity than what brawl has. Having a bad/good sidestep/airdodge is part of a character's moveset.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

^^^^ I agree. For example, falco had a ridiculous side step in melee, but a crappy-*** airdodge. Mewtwo had a terrible side step, but a much better airdodge compared to falco.

 

[kupo15]

Would this be too extreme? You would be able to float back to the stage with this. To prevent it being used to extend recovery length, I think we should

-Remove the frame changes making all ADes back to default cause of Brawl+ gravity
-Give IASA for all moves except another AD (This is what melee did to spot dodges and is what leaf just suggested)
-Make DGRAV much less to minimize the downward travel to approx Melee length
-Loss of FF momentum
-Still unlimited numb of ADes

Well, I'm not sure about the frame changes, you'll just have to experiment, but the DGRAG change is key to the whole thing. Its solving the problem so you can't AD the entire length of the stage. The point of removing the frame changes and minimizing distance traveled downwards was so that if you try to use it as a recovery tool, its easily punishable because the air dodges lasts long. I think this is what should be experimented with as a Beta 1. You need to try it out to see if it really causes a problem.

EDIT: Seriously, shut up about the IASA landing lag thing. Its perfectly clear that it won't work.

 

[timothyung]

You're not a true Ness main then.

But srsly, I also think the IASA landing lag for aerials is dumb. It just makes the animations look choppier while accomplishing what we already have.

I could care less what happens though since I don't usually look at my character except when I'm recovering.

I also don't like the direction the WBR is taking with moves like airdodging and sidestepping. Giving everybody the same sidestep/airdodge makes the characters more generalized. Compare the airdodges/sidestep frame data between characters in melee and you'll see there's way more diversity than what brawl has. Having a bad/good sidestep/airdodge is part of a character's moveset.

IASA landing lag:
I don't think we'll do this

AD/spotdodge
We aren't making so that everybody have the same sidestep/airdodge. We just globally decrease the invincible time.

Well, I'm not sure about the frame changes, you'll just have to experiment, but the DGRAG change is key to the whole thing. Its solving the problem so you can't AD the entire length of the stage. The point of removing the frame changes and minimizing distance traveled downwards was so that if you try to use it as a recovery tool, its easily punishable. I think this is what should be experimented with as a Beta 1. You need to try it out to see if it really causes a problem.

EDIT: Seriously, shut up about the IASA landing lag thing. Its perfectly clear that it won't work.

k. Try it first. But don't put it into a nightly; release a test build for the AD change.

 

[GHNeko]

I also don't like the direction the WBR is taking with moves like airdodging and sidestepping. Giving everybody the same sidestep/airdodge makes the characters more generalized. Compare the airdodges/sidestep frame data between characters in melee and you'll see there's way more diversity than what brawl has. Having a bad/good sidestep/airdodge is part of a character's moveset.

Who said WBR is following this direction? Only a few WBRs have posted their opinions on it. I've yet to say anything, same with Magus, Viet, Blank, and others. Not everyone in WBR is vocal with certain issues.

Not calling you out, but I'm just making sure people arent thinking that WBR as a whole is following this direction.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I am really against adding tech barriers that do nothing but add more button presses to our gameplay to simulate depth and to purposefully separate us from less serious players. that is just ludicrous. Brawl+ is basically a new game, and one good rule to follow when it comes to good game design is if you can accomplish a task with one button instead 3... then go with the one. This whole argument is a ploy to increase the decibel level of clackiness during our gameplay to emulate the "omg high level play" effect that melee's ridiculous amount of button presses required. And I for one enjoy the low level of clackiness B+ has.

 

[Magus420]

I also don't like the direction the WBR is taking with moves like airdodging and sidestepping. Giving everybody the same sidestep/airdodge makes the characters more generalized. Compare the airdodges/sidestep frame data between characters in melee and you'll see there's way more diversity than what brawl has. Having a bad/good sidestep/airdodge is part of a character's moveset.

I actually made some tweaks to the existing invincibility/total duration changes on airdodges while porting them into PSA shortly after the latest nightly. I gave the shorter total duration ADs less invincibility compared to the longer duration ones, as opposed to all but 3 characters having inv on 4-29 and a duration of either 39 or 48/49 being the only difference between them. We could always further differentiate them a bit from there if need be.

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey Kupo, will you join the B+ community again after these changes make way?

The more the merrier I say.

 

[goodoldganon]

Though I won't be posting my opinion on the air dodges I will say that Kupo is right. If we were ever going to do the tweak to the air dodge game it should have been a while back instead of waiting till now when we consider most characters balanced and complete.

 

[timothyung]

Talking about game mechanics, I believe we should also do something on swimming. This thing just doesn't fit Smash, or at least it is poorly implemented. We could probably make it better. Some time before we had a discussion about this in the IRC, and the ideas are basically lower gravity/slow down in water. Thoughts?

 

[kupo15]

Hey Kupo, will you join the B+ community again after these changes make way?

The more the merrier I say.

Its really hard to say. I'm at the point where I am about to sell my copy of Brawl but I might hold off. I don't really think anything good competitively can come from the Brawl engine but the way I see my ideal Brawl+, I can see myself having a lot of good fun with it while it having good competitive spirit. I really can't answer that question now. I'm going to have to wait and see what happens down the road.

Talking about game mechanics, I believe we should also do something on swimming. This thing just doesn't fit Smash, or at least it is poorly implemented. We could probably make it better. Some time before we had a discussion about this in the IRC, and the ideas are basically lower gravity/slow down in water. Thoughts?

Yea, that was my idea for it. Remove swimming completely and replace it with moon gravity area

Though I won't be posting my opinion on the air dodges I will say that Kupo is right. If we were ever going to do the tweak to the air dodge game it should have been a while back instead of waiting till now when we consider most characters balanced and complete.

that's what I trying to push for back then, but no one wanted to hear it Thanks for the post though...gog

 

[goodoldganon]

Yea, that was my idea for it. Remove swimming completely and replace it with moon gravity area

The problem with that is that it BONES the tether characters. All swimming stages would have to be banned for competitive play because it wouldn't be a counterpick, it would just be straight domination. I don't mind swimming cause honestly the only level that is counterpick quality is Delfino and even that is debatable because of how safe it is to just come up from under the floor for most characters.

that's what I trying to push for back then, but no one wanted to hear it Thanks for the post though...gog

Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

 

[MK26]

+1 to iasa for airdodges that allows you to cancel it to any action at the regular time except puts a small (maybe 5-frame) window after the regular end of the airdodge where you cannot initiate an air dodge again.

Same for spot-dodging/rolling and dead frames before you can shield again.

 

[kupo15]

The problem with that is that it BONES the tether characters. All swimming stages would have to be banned for competitive play because it wouldn't be a counterpick, it would just be straight domination. I don't mind swimming cause honestly the only level that is counterpick quality is Delfino and even that is debatable because of how safe it is to just come up from under the floor for most characters.

Or you could try and make the tethers grapple onto the stage instead of the ledge unless the WBR doesn't want to because its from melee. But that didn't stop you guys from adding in a JC shine, though. Or better yet, remove the ability to tether hog. Tethers can grapple an occupied ledge, but when they press A, they can't grab the ledge. Some sort of change to the tether system in this direction would add to the game and then you can do the water suggestion.

But if you think about it, with the [hopefully] AD gravity change and the gravity change from the water, I don't see how it would completely crush them. As it stands right now according to your logic, non swim stages should prove to DESTROY tether characters because there is no water to save them. Nerfing the water with my suggestion is still more help to the tether characters than the non water stages.

Is that one transformation on Delfino the only stage without ledges to grab onto? I forget. Can PSA add ledges?

Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Better late than never.

 

[VietGeek]

Yeah, no ledges, that place is too good for easy edgeguards.

PSA can only edit character files so no. =<

 

[JCaesar]

Frigate has a missing ledge but tether characters do fine there for the most part. I know an Olimar player who actively counterpicks there.

But I think swimming is fine. Even if we fixed it, what would that do? Change Delfino and Japes a little bit (which are fine as they are now) and *possibly* make Pirate Ship CP-worthy, though that's debatable. Not worth the effort imo.

 

[kupo15]

Yeah, no ledges, that place is too good for easy edgeguards.

PSA can only edit character files so no. =<

Basically what JC said and if tethers are fine on Frigate, they should be better off when there is a moon gravity patch to help them out also.

Frigate has a missing ledge but tether characters do fine there for the most part.

But I think swimming is fine. Even if we fixed it, what would that do? Change Delfino and Japes a little bit (which are fine as they are now) and *possibly* make Pirate Ship CP-worthy, though that's debatable. Not worth the effort imo.

I think it would make the matches and recovery aspect to those levels much more interesting. You can have some interesting water tactics. Go in the water to recover better and risk moving slower, essentially being like a sitting duck that can still do all their aerials and specials and air dodges, but if the attacker goes after you and fails, then the table turns on them.

It does sound the same as what currently the water acts like except:
-Its much more free
-You have more defensive/offensive options
-You can't water camp because you have a limited number of jumps
-It keeps the traditional smash aspect of recovering by adding a twist so it won't make recovering so easy as it is now
-It won't make water levels essential another variation of walk off levels
-No more ridiculous splash fests
-Add a whole new aspect and tactics to the game

Spunit has a "No water in Pirate ship" code out there that I couldn't figure out how to work. If you can add in the gravity changes, you can easily test it out. I don't see how this idea isn't cool and better for the game competitively.

There is no possible way to make Brawl Melee 2.0 but that doesn't mean you can't build and improve upon the unique features and new game mechanics brawl has to offer. Heck, I'd probably play brawl+ again just because of these interesting new mechanics if they are improved upon from a competitive POV regardless of the fact that it isn't "Melee 2.0". I can already picture how cool the game can be if you guys take advantage of the opportunities instead of saying things are "just fine" when they can be improved to be something really special.


EDIT: When I say moon grav for water, I mean it should be less than the current. It doesn't have to be super floaty. Experiment and find what feels the best.

 

[Alphatron]

kupo, I remember asking about changing the mechanics of the tethers a while back. I was told that it was impossible to have the tether NOT grab anything but the ledge.

Which sucks, because brawl's tether mechanics are a nerf to tethers altogether.

Edit: Hey, let's all lol @ Olimar's recovery in the water some more.

 

[kupo15]

kupo, I remember asking about changing the mechanics of the tethers a while back. I was told that it was impossible to have the tether NOT grab anything but the ledge.

Which sucks, because brawl's tether mechanics are a nerf to tethers altogether.

That was before PSA. Who knows if PSA can do it and who knows if it will look and feel as good as melee's was. But if that isn't possible, then the next best thing that should be considered is to remove tether hogging. Pressing A on an occupied ledge won't auto sweet spot. Just because they can always tether doesn't mean their recovery is guaranteed. Something to think about

Edit: Hey, let's all lol @ Olimar's recovery in the water some more.

Unless you program it that way, he won't lose Pikmin in the water that I'm suggesting

 

[shanus]

That was before PSA. Who knows if PSA can do it and who knows if it will look and feel as good as melee's was. But if that isn't possible, then the next best thing that should be considered is to remove tether hogging. Pressing A on an occupied ledge won't auto sweet spot. Just because they can always tether doesn't mean their recovery is guaranteed. Something to think about



Unless you program it that way, he won't lose Pikmin in the water that I'm suggesting

I'm mostly familiar with all the logical syntax and that would basically be impossible in PSA. It would need collision detection for a projectile to a wall as the tether is a projectile.

 

[Cemetery]

>:l
Is JC Shining the same as Melee?
Won't work.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

do you have fox's pac?

 

[Cemetery]

Oh, no.
Only textures.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

so you don't have the 5.0 nightly?


you have to download the gct and the pac files. there's an autoupdater somewhere.


I thought you had the gct but not the pacs. sorry.

 

[goodoldganon]

Is that one transformation on Delfino the only stage without ledges to grab onto? I forget. Can PSA add ledges?

I know of the intial landing right in front of the Delfino Statue where the first level of Sunshine (Bianco Hills?) has has no ledges. Also the landing on the island out in the water (the one with the palm tree) has no ledges.

In hindsights it's not as much as I thought but still. I guess I just find Delfino/Japes/Pirate Ship fine as they are. Two are decent competitive counterpicks and Pirate Ship is a great lulz stage.

 

[JCaesar]

If we can exchange water for moon gravity on Japes, that would be cool. Delfino doesn't need it though imo.

I dunno if we could pick and choose like that though.

 

[Finns7]

I dont wanna interupt this convo about stages, but Im not too sure about somethings.

Why is bowser so floaty?
WHy was ness's b move changed, that change doesnt seem right at all, its like saying **** you to all 3 smash games. I think people are going a little to crayzie on the customization part of it. You guys say you want to stay true to smash and brawl but this game is shaping up to be something different in my eyes. I know there nightlies and all but idk I hope some stuff stays out of the official sets. The more buffs and "fixes" you apply, the longer this game will take to balance, even the smallest change can change a matchup significantly.

Is there any word on character specific hitstun and what characters are being addressed?

 

[kupo15]

I'm mostly familiar with all the logical syntax and that would basically be impossible in PSA. It would need collision detection for a projectile to a wall as the tether is a projectile.

Ah ok. What about the possibility of disabling tether hogging?

I know of the intial landing right in front of the Delfino Statue where the first level of Sunshine (Bianco Hills?) has has no ledges. Also the landing on the island out in the water (the one with the palm tree) has no ledges.

EDIT: And then you are on the shine gate (no water) and I see the one you talked about in front of the statue which has water and no ledges. Got it.

In hindsights it's not as much as I thought but still. I guess I just find Delfino/Japes/Pirate Ship fine as they are. Two are decent competitive counterpicks and Pirate Ship is a great lulz stage.

I know the palm tree doesn't. I'm not picturing the other one you described. I can only think of 3 transformations right now. Beach (no ledges) Shine Gate (walkoff) and the 3 small islands (all have ledges on both sides)

If we can exchange water for moon gravity on Japes, that would be cool. Delfino doesn't need it though imo.

I dunno if we could pick and choose like that though.

Im sure you can pick your stages. Spunits code to remove water is only for Pirate ship. I think the coding is similar to that of the boundary mod code. Pirate ship would def be better off with moon grav water, Japes also I think, and Delfino kinda goes both ways but would be awesome to try. I know there are still some stupid water fights in that one particularly in the 3 island part.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If you do make water different please remove the autokill hull on Pirate ship, it already kills tether characters sometimes and I would imagine that would make it worse.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ah ok. What about the possibility of disabling tether hogging?

I know the palm tree doesn't. I'm not picturing the other one you described. I can only think of 3 transformations right now. Beach (no ledges) Shine Gate (walkoff) and the 3 small islands (all have ledges on both sides).

The main plaza in front of the fountain is what he's referring to, I think, with water on either side. Shine gate isn't a walkoff, either, but the area below it by the fountain is. There's also two other transformations with shallow water (one by the umbrellas and one on the other side of that wall), but there's only water you can swim in on the far left side of the second of those two.

 

[PKNintendo]

I dont wanna interupt this convo about stages, but Im not too sure about somethings.

Why is bowser so floaty?
WHy was ness's b move changed, that change doesnt seem right at all, its like saying **** you to all 3 smash games. I think people are going a little to crayzie on the customization part of it. You guys say you want to stay true to smash and brawl but this game is shaping up to be something different in my eyes. I know there nightlies and all but idk I hope some stuff stays out of the official sets. The more buffs and "fixes" you apply, the longer this game will take to balance, even the smallest change can change a matchup significantly.

Is there any word on character specific hitstun and what characters are being addressed?

Bowser was getting comboed to easily.

Psi magnet was useless in all 3 games.[outside of heal] Sakurai gave it a wind effect, but it was to weak and thus a **** you lol to the Ness mains. Did you know vBrawl Ness magnet was 100% outclassed by Lucas?


1. Lucas had more horizontal range.
2.Lucas healed 2.0 the damage, Ness got 1.5.
3. The move was faster too.

 

[matt4300]

I dont wanna interupt this convo about stages, but Im not too sure about somethings.

Why is bowser so floaty?
WHy was ness's b move changed, that change doesnt seem right at all, its like saying **** you to all 3 smash games. I think people are going a little to crayzie on the customization part of it. You guys say you want to stay true to smash and brawl but this game is shaping up to be something different in my eyes. I know there nightlies and all but idk I hope some stuff stays out of the official sets. The more buffs and "fixes" you apply, the longer this game will take to balance, even the smallest change can change a matchup significantly.

Is there any word on character specific hitstun and what characters are being addressed?

Well more options on bad chars gives them more depth and better matchups... Atleast I can say that about nesses psi magnet change... it ****s some recoverys (makeing some matchups better) and helps him off stage recovering. But, as I said in the link thread... Some chars (like lucario and falco) dont NEED more options, and theres a difference between smoothly integrating new options (links zair change or gannons jump refresh on down-b) and the previous changes I mentioned that just dont feel right. Like as much as infin up-bs helped ness and ivy.. It just felt glitchy and wrong.

And yeh char specific hitstun could seriously help balance + (LUIGI!! >:O) but, unless bowser gets some way to get back to the ground I dont think it would be a great idea to give him MORE... infact because of how detrimental large size is to a char I seriously think they (big chars) should have less hitstun than the rest... and tiny chars should have a good bit. That would seriously help on balance.

 

[PKNintendo]

Ness isn`t a bad character lol.

He ranges from so-so to good.

 

[matt4300]

Ness isn`t a bad character lol.

He ranges from so-so to good.

Geh, I was just being general. When I say good I mean the top half of the cast and when I say bad I mean the bottom half. Chars like ness and link who have a long list of cons are probley gonna be on the bottom half.

Every char I main is in the so-so catagory incuding ness. So I know what ya mean when you say ness isent bad. But I guess that begs the question... Could any char really be considerd "bad" anymore? I think the worst chars in the game right now can still be considerd so-so or meh, but no one is strait up bad.

 

[Finns7]

Link, ganon, bowser and ike ( you know where im going) dont get comboed easily and gimped easily? Bowser has recieved buffs let the crutch go. Links bthrow is uselss in all 3 games WAIT (64 all grabs where strong XD) but you know what I mean. Does the move need a change like that? Not in my eyes, just because a move was useless doesnt not mean it should be buffed. Dont talk about ****ty wind effects cus links gale rang is full-o-fail.

Pk I think if ness needed buffs they should of went somewhere else, Lucas in my eyes is such a EZ character now, I dont think he was that terrible to begin with.

The point of all my *****ing really is I want to cease all these add ons and "fixes". Some of these changes are not needed, they make the game feel foreign a game ive been playing since 64 came out.

 

[matt4300]

Link, ganon, bowser and ike ( you know where im going) dont get comboed easily and gimped easily? Bowser has recieved buffs let the crutch go. Links bthrow is uselss in all 3 games WAIT (64 all grabs where strong XD) but you know what I mean. Does the move need a change like that? Not in my eyes, just because a move was useless doesnt not mean it should be buffed. Dont talk about ****ty wind effects cus links gale rang is full-o-fail.

Pk I think if ness needed buffs they should of went somewhere else, Lucas in my eyes is such a EZ character now, I dont think he was that terrible to begin with.

The point of all my *****ing really is I want to cease all these add ons and "fixes". Some of these changes are not needed, they make the game feel foreign a game ive been playing since 64 came out.

Link - Nair, dair, bair, bomb

Gannon- dair, wizkick, nair

Ike- Dair, Nair, B, vB, Up-B

Bowser- ??? Dair?? T_T FAILLLL!!!! bowserbomb??? <_<' EPIC FAIL!!!

Bowser is the only one with this horrible weakness of not being able to get out of the air and back to the ground when getting pillar comboed ... If he had more hitstun he would never get back. Also every char you just named is in the lower half of the cast I'm pretty **** sure. And its because they get comboed and gimped easily. (without the benifit if wtf gay combo games and damages of chars like fox, falco, and marth.)

There are better ways to buff link than buffing his grab/ throw game since as you well know going for a grab with link is very risky. So naturaly buffing Bthrow is not the best way to make link better wich is why it wasnet done. The ness psi magnet buff was more than likely the result of everyone scrambleing to find the best ways to make ness better ... there have been quite a few tests done to ness and psi magent I guess worked... It may not be in very long... Or it may just stay in because it really doesnt hurt or help him a whole lot... and the codes already made lol

 

[Finns7]

I didnt want bthrow buffed for link, im saying its useless and should stay useless. Your telling me the ness boards didnt know how to make ness better? Their main? thats suspect right there to me idk. In what smash game or any game representing bowser was he floaty, none so why add it? Give him something else not OP that makes bowser, bowser.

 

[Swordplay]

To comment on this current discussion..........(The following comments affect more than one or two character but as I write, I have 3-4 in mind.)

Some buffs that were givin to some characters were good buffs......however, after weeks, people figured ways around these nearly nullifying the buff completely, returning the character to thier former suckage........

THESE are the buffs I would reflect upon and question. Maybe if some of these were taken out, the game might feel less foreign.

I feel the main reason THESE buffs are left in is because they have been in for a while or have been used in an official build.