Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[kupo15]

I'm not really sure why people like the idea of the IASA on landing lag so much. It accomplishes exactly the same thing as the current ALR does, but certain animations probably won't look as smooth anymore, since instead of just speeding them up, you're outright interrupting them. Most moves actually have too little landing lag as it is for you to be able to react to the animation finishing before you input your next action. With ALR, you input your action when you know you can act. With IASA, you would input your action when you know you can act. It's the same thing. One just looks prettier.

Yes you are correct. It basically is ALR masked behind IASA. The idea was to keep the ALR idea while trying to add a small twist to it so that some players react with eyes (missed IASA) some will struggle to be consist in getting a frame perfect IASA if they don't play as often ect....up to the regular players. Once again, buffer screws it up unless you make a code.

As far as messy animations is concerned, I'm not so sure it would be that. In melee, (I don't know this for a fact) but it feels to me that there are IASA frames on the spot dodges. I remember doing some spot dodge tests to make them less stupid and I was like, "****, that looks really long! Melee's definitely doesn't look like that!!" But actually, it does if you go from spot dodge to spot dodge or spot dodge to standing ect. But when you are actually playing, you never really see the whole animation play out. I don't think the ALR animation would really be that much different. ^^^^I could be very wrong about this paragraph.

But the main reason I brought it up was to show my thought process on fixing this game.

And that reminds me. Side steps fixes!! We have the frame data that proves that side steps have been way buffed and are OP. The only thing stopping us from actually implementing it was the fact that IASA wasn't affected so it made no difference but not so anymore since PSA can fix this. So now there is no reason not to fix spot dodges. They should be fixed.

JC+ grabs. Another idea I have for this if you are concerned with it being the best over DC grabs are, JC grabs only work during the dash and DC grabs only work during the run. I know JC grabs have a long slide but I think camelot says that PSA can remove this.


And adding on to my air dodge idea. moon gravity air dodge if infinite can really help with recoveries in an unfair way. Imagine MK with 6 jumps and a moon grav air dodge inbetween. So you should also play around with having just 1 air dodge as well.

And to add to my CC idea, if you wanted to add a little bit of 64, CC reduces kb a little but gives you terrible DI unless you quickly adjust upwards during impact. So this could be a nifty, risky AT. Crouch to reduce kb from a move, the less downward DI will give you terrible DI unless you input correct DI, but the less strong kb from crouching could possibly put you in combo range. Just something to think about. Wow, that could be very interesting!

The addition of my air dodge fix and fixing the spot dodge would really help the game competitively but I hope you include more of the game mechanics I have presented so far.

 

[Revven]

We were already planning on fixing side steps, the problem with them is that all of them have IASA as well as some of them are just way too short (i.e Marth's) so even when you remove the IASA, you can still spam it like before. But, we are going to fix them...

Also, we discussed lower gravity air dodges last night and it brings up a problem: frame traps. Things like MK Uair for example or Toon Link Uair (a scary Uair since it doesn't have a weak hitbox). You won't be able to get past them with an air dodge if they are lower gravity without being able to FF + our current AD fix. Some character's AD is actually their only answer to getting back down to the ground as well (Bowser says hi). It can be remedied by buffing a move for use in that way so they GTFO in the air but that is also buffing its use on the ground/anywhere else.

I am of the opinion though that limiting things to 1 AD is hurting it too much. Just lower grav and our current AD fix would be enough, assuming we went with the lower grav AD (which again poses problems for certain characters among other things).

 

[SymphonicSage12]

We were already planning on fixing side steps, the problem with them is that all of them have IASA as well as some of them are just way too short (i.e Marth's) so even when you remove the IASA, you can still spam it like before. But, we are going to fix them...

Also, we discussed lower gravity air dodges last night and it brings up a problem: frame traps. Things like MK Uair for example or Toon Link Uair (a scary Uair since it doesn't have a weak hitbox). You won't be able to get past them with an air dodge if they are lower gravity without being able to FF + our current AD fix. Some character's AD is actually their only answer to getting back down to the ground as well (Bowser says hi). It can be remedied by buffing a move for use in that way so they GTFO in the air but that is also buffing its use on the ground/anywhere else.

I am of the opinion though that limiting things to 1 AD is hurting it too much. Just lower grav and our current AD fix would be enough, assuming we went with the lower grav AD (which again poses problems for certain characters among other things).

Yes, please fix side step dodges. PLEASE *coughcoughFalco'sspotdodgecoughcough*

Pardon me for being nubbish, what do you guys mean by a "lower gravity" airdodge? Like, you don't fall as much during an airdodge? And what is this "fix"?

 

[CountKaiser]

You can use PSA to limit the invincibility frames to 16 or so frames universally. You can also do this with air dodges.

Link by far has the spotdodge. He has 20 frames of invulnerability and 2 frames before he can go into another spotdodge.

I suggest 16 frames because that is jiggs spotdodge.

 

[kupo15]

Also, we discussed lower gravity air dodges last night and it brings up a problem: frame traps. Things like MK Uair for example or Toon Link Uair (a scary Uair since it doesn't have a weak hitbox). You won't be able to get past them with an air dodge if they are lower gravity without being able to FF + our current AD fix. Some character's AD is actually their only answer to getting back down to the ground as well (Bowser says hi). It can be remedied by buffing a move for use in that way so they GTFO in the air but that is also buffing its use on the ground/anywhere else.

I am of the opinion though that limiting things to 1 AD is hurting it too much. Just lower grav and our current AD fix would be enough, assuming we went with the lower grav AD (which again poses problems for certain characters among other things).

I don't follow. You had "frame traps" in melee and you also had boatloads of them in 64 without ADes but that doesn't mean there is nothing you can do about them. Air dodges are not the only way to get around things and it shouldn't be the central tactic either. Frame traps only exist where the offense properly zones and the defense just sucks in which I don't see the big deal. TL uair frame trap is a good reason to not include it????????? If he fails with his first attempt, the opponent should be able to get to the ground unless they REALLY suck. If you can't get around it with an air dodge, then don't air dodge. You can double jump which helps with moving around in the air and positioning yourself to counter an attack.


And please don't give me the same Bull**** with the NADT in that you don't want to include tactics where using a double jump at times would work. There are several of ways to get around frame traps. People did it in 64 (WITHOUT AIR DODGES) and melee. You guys seem to be much too conservative in wanting to design a game where there isn't much responsibility asked of the player and where the game holds your hand a lot. Seriously, TRY it and it might turn out that you might need to tweak another aspect of your game like hitstun for example. Try different things like keeping FF momentum but the lower gravity won't make it quite as powerful.

:V (<---Yes, I JUST did that)

What is your current AD fix btw?

And FYI. Remember, I have played this game without and air dodge before and it seriously wasn't that devastating so I can't imagine this AD fix would be half as bad as what I played.

 

[timothyung]

Don't forget 3-D hurtboxes *coughDDDcough*

Kupo:
-Global: ADs reworked: removed 7 frames from invincibility section, except for peach; added 2 frames cooldown section, peach's cooldown adjusted to compensate for differences, Ness, Lucas and Yoshi were exempted from the code due to teleports

 

[PKNintendo]

Sorry to be off topic here, but Timo, I downloaded your Buffer Pac thingy and placed it in the system folder of my SD card but nothing happened.

 

[timothyung]

Make sure you name it correctly, put it in the right place, and have the SD card in during the startup of the game. And of course, the code.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

did you name it common5.pac?


EDIT: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Ninja'd


Anyways, I like the idea of all spotdodges being about as good as jigglypuff's. Her's seems to be a good baseline.

 

[PKNintendo]

I forgot the 5 lol.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo:
-Global: ADs reworked: removed 7 frames from invincibility section, except for peach; added 2 frames cooldown section, peach's cooldown adjusted to compensate for differences, Ness, Lucas and Yoshi were exempted from the code due to teleports

That is old news like really old. It still has the same problem and in some ways it can be better by essentially being the OP side step in the air. IIRC, the overall animation is less which means it could be spammed more. But in any case, the AD is still too powerful and they should really try out the lower gravity. Getting the air dodge in check would do a lot for the game.

 

[timothyung]

Or... universal speed up of the invincible frames of spotdodges? Like 1.25x speed

That is old news like really old. It still has the same problem and in some ways it can be better. IIRC, the overall animation is less which means it could be spammed more. But in any case, the AD is still too powerful and they should really try out the lower gravity. Getting the air dodge in check would do a lot for the game.

I'm just telling you that this is the AD fix being mentioned.

 

[camelot]

What if the animation was the same, but it just had less invincibility? Like, 1 less frame at the beginning and 6 less frames at the end (talking about air dodges here)

 

[CountKaiser]

How else can someone get around a frame trap other than double jumping? Attacking through it?

camelot: I already suggested this to a lesser extent.

 

[MK26]

Regarding manual l-cancel, why should aerial lag be the only cancelable animation? let's add manual lag canceling to the wind-down of smashes, specials, heck, even aerials that end in the air! press L after every move to cut the cool-down. Why limit it to just aerial landings?

I could talk about other stuff, but manual l-canceling just irks me.

edit: wouldnt yoshi's double jump be super broken with an airdodge that makes him float?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Just had a thought: Wouldn't removing the invincibility on MK's grounded shuttle loop be a moot point, since the MK could just Shuttle Loop OoS (giving them invincibility frames)?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Hitbox doesn't come out frame-1, I don't think, but your shield will be gone by frame-1, so they would still have however many frames until the Shuttle Loop hitbox comes out to hit you.

 

[timothyung]

Why won't you guys check the frame data yourself

GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32



AERIAL SHUTTLE LOOP

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614

 

[GHNeko]

>_>

Call me crazy, but adding hitlag on MK Gair would be pretty pimp.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well all I know is that bowser's grounded up b OoS hitbox doesn't come out until like frame 6, and doing is OoS gives you invincibility on frames 1-5. I think. Which means that if you time your Up b perfectly with bowser, you have no vulnerability up until the hitbox. But with metaknight, the hitbox is out on frame eight, and, assuming you're invulnerable until frame 5, the enemy would have 2 frames to hit you. (two frames being from 6-7 and then 7-8)

There really isn't much you can do in two frames (except a jab maybe)

 

[Perfect Chaos]

If I recall correctly, that's because Bowser has invincibility frames at start-up; it has nothing to do it with being OoS...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

No, it's because it's OoS. otherwise doing it OoS would be useless. but it isn't, since bowser mains do it all the time.


If doing it OoS didn't do anything for you, then all bowser mains would just straight out cancel the jump with the up b instead.


EDIT: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF nvm


you're right.

doing it out of shield allows you to have 1 frame of invincibility on the startup. And then, bowser's up b 5 invincibility frames. 1+5=6, so since the hitbox is on frame 6, he's invulnerable for all the startup.


EDIT: so this is how it is, final.

frames 0-1: invincibility from shield

frames 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, 4-5, and 5-6: invincibility from up b

frame 6: hitbox out

 

[Swordplay]

*Biased Statement* Don't touch my spot dodge CountKaiser.......Some characters just don't need more nerfs............

*Unbiased* Spot dodges are an integral part of each characters game......Changing them would drastically change the GTFO play style of many defensive characters and would require major re-balancing.

 

[kupo15]

I'm just telling you that this is the AD fix being mentioned.

Thanks. I just thought that there was a newer idea from the WBR

How else can someone get around a frame trap other than double jumping? Attacking through it?

Several things like counters and specials that slow you down in the air like marth's side b, up b's (select ones like pits is great) thinking ahead and positioning yourself in the air so that the frame trap isn't effective (ie fast falling if you predict) other tricks and the most important thing..being Creative!! If people in melee can mindgame their way to safety while in the Flashing immobile state, it can be done as long as your smart and you predict correctly and as long as you didn't make so many mistakes that makes frames traps almost guaranteed in which you deserve it.

Brawl+ is seriously designed so you can get out of things you shouldn't have with relative ease. If you need some ideas, go back and play 64 because seeing how 64 was such a great game despite not having an air dodge and how it didn't detract from the game, brawl+ really has no excuse.

edit: wouldnt yoshi's double jump be super broken with an airdodge that makes him float?

Broken how? As in it doesn't work as well because of lost momentum? If so then that reminds me, what I meant to say was to set DGRAV to a moongravity like setting so it won't affect Yoshi's recovery. That would be perfect. Set DOWNGRAVITY to a low enough setting so that the distance traveled while falling is approx that of Melee's. If you want to experiment with keeping the FF aspect to give the defender another trick to work with, then try it but the FF shouldn't give an unbalanced amount of help.

Personally, I would try it first without the FF feature because noticing the trend of this game, if you include something better then try to take it away later, it won't happen and then you have yet another aspect of the game that is less than perfect. So start without the FF, then add it if it really is necessary. You really should just try this out and I can almost guarantee that most if not all of your worrying about these little things (that are made such a big deal as to not even attempt to try it) are for nothing.

Just don't pull a NADT and think that an alteration in the game mechanics means that you can still play and think the same way before the change. The point is to try and expand the game which isn't possible if you are closed minded.

 

[Dark Sonic]

SymphonicSage12. You don't get any invincibility from dropping your shield. Dropping your shield leaves you vulnerable from the moment you release the shield button (dropping the shield happens on frame 1. 1-9 (default shielddrop lag) is simply the lag AFTER your shield has already disapeared and you're vulnerable).

 

[CountKaiser]

Spotdodges are too spammy and far too rewarding atm. Reducing the invuln frames to 16 won't ruin characters, jiggs mains already have to deal with a 16 frame spotdodge anyway.

 

[leafgreen386]

Also, we discussed lower gravity air dodges last night and it brings up a problem: frame traps. Things like MK Uair for example or Toon Link Uair (a scary Uair since it doesn't have a weak hitbox). You won't be able to get past them with an air dodge if they are lower gravity without being able to FF + our current AD fix. Some character's AD is actually their only answer to getting back down to the ground as well (Bowser says hi). It can be remedied by buffing a move for use in that way so they GTFO in the air but that is also buffing its use on the ground/anywhere else.

Although it will come with some potential problems, I thought we agreed to give this a shot and to try everything we can to make it work? There are many things we can do to deal with frame traps. We can balance the invincibility/non-invincibility time and mess with certain hitbox timings so that if perfectly dodged, everything is escapable, and for what isn't, has other ways to get around it. We can give chars with no other options a fast aerial that isn't useful for much more than hitting the foe away, to prevent it from being too big of a buff elsewhere. There are ways to deal with this. It will require a lot of effort to make it all work, but I think it's justified, as it will result in a much cleaner overall AD system.

I am of the opinion though that limiting things to 1 AD is hurting it too much. Just lower grav and our current AD fix would be enough, assuming we went with the lower grav AD (which again poses problems for certain characters among other things).

I agree. Although I think that a longer AD that has IASA with everything but a second AD would be a cool way to deal with it.

edit: @bowser upB discussion:

The reason bowser's upB OOS works is because you can cancel a jump with an upB. So one frame you're shielding, the next frame you're starting your jump (which cancels the shield), and the frame after that you're upBing with invincibility. So you have one vulnerable frame.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well nvm about the thing about mk and OoS up b.

But isn't doing OoS up b's useless then? What is the point of it?

 

[GHNeko]

well nvm about the thing about mk and OoS up b.

But isn't doing OoS up b's useless then? What is the point of it?

It's a potent GTFO move? Even if the invincibility is not that good?

 

[leafgreen386]

well nvm about the thing about mk and OoS up b.

But isn't doing OoS up b's useless then? What is the point of it?

Check out my edit in my previous post.

edit: @bowser upB discussion:

The reason bowser's upB OOS works is because you can cancel a jump with an upB. So one frame you're shielding, the next frame you're starting your jump (which cancels the shield), and the frame after that you're upBing with invincibility. So you have one vulnerable frame.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Actually does the extra 5 frames really affect her so much?


Ah L-canceling again. We make Brawl+ for fun. All the changes in Brawl+ are made so it is more fun, at least for us. We think combos are fun. We like a more aggressive gameplay. I don't think requiring the player to press a button to reduce the lag is fun. It makes the game less enjoyable for most players. Those with slow fingers, those with bad timing, or those who don't even know about L-canceling. Indeed, competitiveness is important too, but fun is far more important than this. We play games for fun.

I would like Brawl+ a lot less if I had to l-cancel. Really. Aerial Lag Reduction is a good medium because it's user-friendly. Forcing people to manually L-cancel as opposed to it automatically happening would be like... (looks for suitable example)... I can't find one. It's needlessly complicating the game to make it harder for the new player (experienced players will know what they're doing and L-cancel reliably anyways). Sounds stupid.

back to important things....


NEED....TAUNT...CANCELING..NOW....before...i..black....out..............

THIS
OMFG
THIS

 

[timothyung]

well nvm about the thing about mk and OoS up b.

But isn't doing OoS up b's useless then? What is the point of it?

You start doing the up B earlier.

For ADs... Can't we just somehow alter the script of it? For example, reduce the downwards momentum when you start ADing. Or you can disable the fast-fall state if you AD.

 

[Hyrus]

With the recent spike in activity on this thread, I think it's worth reminding the backroom of a person's anonymity, and the likelyhood that an individual is subject to bias and a lack of high level experience. As much as I play Smash, for instance, I don't have devoted regulars to play the game with. That doesn't make my view less valid, although considerations towards higher level play should be made in light of such posts. Few posters will assess their own level of play experience before endorsing their totally awesome idea.

While Brawl+ describes itself as "ongoing development" or like a game that's continuously patched, continuing to change the game is unhealthy for the longevity of the project. As a man who grew up playing Blizzard games and continues to play Steam games, I know successful games receive smaller and smaller changes as it goes on to fix imbalances and oversights. Talking about redoing gravity, dodging or manually adding in "unintuitive" techniques are a step backwards, making large changes that can drastically affect multiple aspects of the game and stall completion. If there's ever to be a gold release, the kinds of changes to the game need to be getting smaller, not bigger.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I want taunt cancelling in too .

 

[timothyung]

Just let taunts cancel-able by taunts(not for Snake of course). You can see how awesome it would be at around 0:40 in this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if1gnnF4zw0

 

[Deleted member]

I repeat

Technical skill is REQUIRED to play Smash, therefore it is stupid to say that adding to it creates a wall. The wall already exists.

Oh my, it's the Gamecube controller argument again.

Does it add "depth"? No.

It adds difficulty, but that melts away into nothingness after you get a feel for the Gamecube controller.

I consider depth to be options, and this isn't an option, it's just more input.

We're not playing this game with psychic powers.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Taunt cancelling. YESZ.

I would also be a fan if jigglypuff's rest had the range in SSB64, but that's extremely wishful thinking.

 

[goodoldganon]

With the recent spike in activity on this thread, I think it's worth reminding the backroom of a person's anonymity, and the likelyhood that an individual is subject to bias and a lack of high level experience. As much as I play Smash, for instance, I don't have devoted regulars to play the game with. That doesn't make my view less valid, although considerations towards higher level play should be made in light of such posts. Few posters will assess their own level of play experience before endorsing their totally awesome idea.

While Brawl+ describes itself as "ongoing development" or like a game that's continuously patched, continuing to change the game is unhealthy for the longevity of the project. As a man who grew up playing Blizzard games and continues to play Steam games, I know successful games receive smaller and smaller changes as it goes on to fix imbalances and oversights. Talking about redoing gravity, dodging or manually adding in "unintuitive" techniques are a step backwards, making large changes that can drastically affect multiple aspects of the game and stall completion. If there's ever to be a gold release, the kinds of changes to the game need to be getting smaller, not bigger.

I agree 100% with this man.

 

[JCaesar]

The adults are having an important conversation right now, so will the kiddies whining about pointless **** like taunt-canceling please kindly shut the **** up?

Thank you.

 

[kupo15]

I agree. Although I think that a longer AD that has IASA with everything but a second AD would be a cool way to deal with it.

This is a great idea. Here is what I think should be your starting trial version of a cleaner AD system:

-Remove the frame changes making all ADes back to default
-Give IASA for all moves except another AD (This is what melee did to spot dodges and is what leaf just suggested)
-Make DGRAV much less to minimize the downward travel to approx Melee length
-Loss of FF momentum
-Still unlimited numb of ADes

Talking about redoing gravity, dodging or manually adding in "unintuitive" techniques are a step backwards, making large changes that can drastically affect multiple aspects of the game and stall completion. If there's ever to be a gold release, the kinds of changes to the game need to be getting smaller, not bigger.

If the WBR wasn't wasting its time doing nothing but character changes for the past 4 months instead of addressing the game mechanics that it should have been doing, this wouldn't happen. When you procrastinate and lay off things for later, the laundry list piles up and it would have stayed small if it was addressed along side of character changes. (Char changes aren't "pointless" per say, but time would have been better spent working on both at the same time.)