Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Machiavelli.CF]

Maybe instead of freaking out, you guys could try it out?

once the specifics of it are figured out then i think it would be a good idea to test (my apologies if i havent noticed its already been specified what it does)
i'd like to give it a wirl
so besides mk and CC what other changes are needed?
i think ganon's utilt cancel needs to be worked on, to only cancell into certain moves

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I Agree with teh ganon utilt cancel, and I will add that it needs to cancel a little bit later. Maybe frame 35 or 40ish instead of frame 30?

 

[VietGeek]

The only people against CCing are the people who might be receiving the shorter end of the stick here - rather, it could largely change the viability of characters.

In Melee CCing made garbage characters even more garbage. Efficiently CCing would render Roy's moveset to mostly grabs and *rather* telegraphed smash moves. Neither of those two options are good enough given the fact that Roy was garbage to begin with. We could argue he would *still* be trash even had CCing not existed as it did in Melee,

but the fact that it was there and hampered his viability in high level play even further tells us how potent it can be against characters that may still not be able to keep up with the big boys of the higher tiers.

It would also lead to new countermeasures in B+. CC Falco shine was a good gtfo tactic that punished the opponent for trying to punish Falco "incorrectly." With moves like Luigi's UpB with invincibility on frame 5, Fox's and Wolf's shine, and even moves like Snake's ftilt and frame 2 (?) jabs like ZSS's, it could add a whole new repertoire of potentially potent tactics (most obvious would be Snake probably) that were otherwise not as potent due to Brawl+'s..."fickle" shieldstun mechanic.

Also CC Fox shine, alongside its new JC capability will lead to harsher punishments from Fox from his previously mediocre invincibility move. Considering this is the same community that complains that Marth's Dolphin Slash is *too good*, I'm doubtful for how well this will be received.

Although all of this is assuming the mechanic itself (not the timing) is vastly similar to its Melee incarnation.

The mechanic itself may lead to more trouble than good. It could be more exploitable than expected, depending on how willing the players of B+ are willing to exploit and attempt to break the game.

Do we know that it's broken yet? No, of course not.

Can we safely assume it has the potential to vastly change the dominant strategies that currently exist in this game? Probably.

I feel like I missed a crucial part of information that would make my wall absolutely flawed. Oh well. +1 baby. <____<

 

[jalued]

The only people against CCing are the people who might be receiving the shorter end of the stick here - rather, it could largely change the viability of characters.

In Melee CCing made garbage characters even more garbage. Efficiently CCing would render Roy's moveset to mostly grabs and *rather* telegraphed smash moves. Neither of those two options are good enough given the fact that Roy was garbage to begin with. We could argue he would *still* be trash even had CCing not existed as it did in Melee,

but the fact that it was there and hampered his viability in high level play even further tells us how potent it can be against characters that may still not be able to keep up with the big boys of the higher tiers.

It would also lead to new countermeasures in B+. CC Falco shine was a good gtfo tactic that punished the opponent for trying to punish Falco "incorrectly." With moves like Luigi's UpB with invincibility on frame 5, Fox's and Wolf's shine, and even moves like Snake's ftilt and frame 2 (?) jabs like ZSS's, it could add a whole new repertoire of potentially potent tactics (most obvious would be Snake probably) that were otherwise not as potent due to Brawl+'s..."fickle" shieldstun mechanic.

Also CC Fox shine, alongside its new JC capability will lead to harsher punishments from Fox from his previously mediocre invincibility move. Considering this is the same community that complains that Marth's Dolphin Slash is *too good*, I'm doubtful for how well this will be received.

Although all of this is assuming the mechanic itself (not the timing) is vastly similar to its Melee incarnation.

The mechanic itself may lead to more trouble than good. It could be more exploitable than expected, depending on how willing the players of B+ are willing to exploit and attempt to break the game.

Do we know that it's broken yet? No, of course not.

Can we safely assume it has the potential to vastly change the dominant strategies that currently exist in this game? Probably.

I feel like I missed a crucial part of information that would make my wall absolutely flawed. Oh well. +1 baby. <____<

im fine with it allowing a tech, would be good as it would add more depth. just wouldnt like melee CC back, well except maybe for samus

 

[CountKaiser]

I feel like I missed a crucial part of information that would make my wall absolutely flawed. Oh well. +1 baby. <____<

Thats not what he's saying.

What I THINK he means is that if you DI the hit soon enough (IE try to crouch during the first couple frames of the attack hitting you), then you will DI down more which will allow you to tech.

I think that would be cool because it sets up the other person for a tech chase. Also if you do it too close to the edge I imagine that you would just semi-spike yourself basically, so you shouldn't do it mindlessly.

If that's his idea then I agree with it.

There you go. :V

 

[VietGeek]

wow im so good i counter myself

that means i will never win the viet matchup

dammit i thought id one day beat kens legacy

ken too good =V

 

[KOkingpin]

The only people against CCing are the people who might be receiving the shorter end of the stick here - rather, it could largely change the viability of characters.

In Melee CCing made garbage characters even more garbage. Efficiently CCing would render Roy's moveset to mostly grabs and *rather* telegraphed smash moves. Neither of those two options are good enough given the fact that Roy was garbage to begin with. We could argue he would *still* be trash even had CCing not existed as it did in Melee,

but the fact that it was there and hampered his viability in high level play even further tells us how potent it can be against characters that may still not be able to keep up with the big boys of the higher tiers.

It would also lead to new countermeasures in B+. CC Falco shine was a good gtfo tactic that punished the opponent for trying to punish Falco "incorrectly." With moves like Luigi's UpB with invincibility on frame 5, Fox's and Wolf's shine, and even moves like Snake's ftilt and frame 2 (?) jabs like ZSS's, it could add a whole new repertoire of potentially potent tactics (most obvious would be Snake probably) that were otherwise not as potent due to Brawl+'s..."fickle" shieldstun mechanic.

Also CC Fox shine, alongside its new JC capability will lead to harsher punishments from Fox from his previously mediocre invincibility move. Considering this is the same community that complains that Marth's Dolphin Slash is *too good*, I'm doubtful for how well this will be received.

Although all of this is assuming the mechanic itself (not the timing) is vastly similar to its Melee incarnation.

The mechanic itself may lead to more trouble than good. It could be more exploitable than expected, depending on how willing the players of B+ are willing to exploit and attempt to break the game.

Do we know that it's broken yet? No, of course not.

Can we safely assume it has the potential to vastly change the dominant strategies that currently exist in this game? Probably.

I feel like I missed a crucial part of information that would make my wall absolutely flawed. Oh well. +1 baby. <____<

I never was a fan of Crouch Canceling. Nothing like hitting a Ganon Fair at 0% and getting punished for it. But ill try just about anything once.

Also I'm a bum and slow on uploading those vids from the tourney last weekend. Just started like 30 mins ago. should take all day for them all..... Im doing them in VOB files cause the converted files suck for quality.

 

[Revven]

he cant turn around and Up-B right?
if he could pul out a back air then it seems to me he might be able to turn around/jump and use shuttle loop to hit them

They get sent too far to do turn around Shuttle Loop. He can't even turn around, run, jump, and Shuttle Loop them. Because by that point they are out of hitstun and can thus jump out and/or AD.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I would imagine that without the invincibility on his upb, it's actually possible to gimp MK now. Although it's still going to be hard/really hard.

 

[Revven]

I would imagine that without the invincibility on his upb, it's actually possible to gimp MK now. Although it's still going to be hard/really hard.

Aerial Up B never had invinc in the first place, only the grounded one, which is what I removed. Marth is the one with invinc on both air and ground.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Aerial Up B never had invinc in the first place, only the grounded one, which is what I removed. Marth is the one with invinc on both air and ground.

and sonic? probably a few others i forgot

 

[Plum]

On the very much bright side, it would make a lot of characters actually able to approach MK.
Grounded shuttle loop was guaranteed to beat all of G&W's aerial approaches (and pretty much any aerial approach) so I'm liking that change a lot.
It's still going to suck getting around Ftilt and retreating Fsmash's, but the lack of invincible grounded shuttle loop is a huge step forward for a lot of characters forced to approach MK.

and sonic? probably a few others i forgot

G&W has invincibility on his Up B as well, but they don't have the defensive capabilities of MK or Marth's Up B's (well, former Up B's considering Marth only has invincibility on frame 5 now iirc, and if MK looses his).
I can't speak for Sonic (or even know if it does have invincibility), but G&W's Up B is more like a "get yourself the **** out" move when you are in trouble rather "Get them the **** out".

 

[JCaesar]

I never was a fan of Crouch Canceling. Nothing like hitting a Ganon Fair at 0% and getting punished for it. But ill try just about anything once.

How about this: Melee CCing combined with heavy armor. Meaning that CCing will only work at low-mid %s (Melee CCing) and only against weak attacks (heavy armor). So you couldn't just CC a Ganon fair and punish him, but you could CC a jab and hit the jabber. I don't think that would be too game-changing and it could add an interesting little bit of depth.

And get those vids up already!

 

[weinzey]

we should discuss sheik's fair change since shanus said there's probably gonna be a new nightly this weekend.

my 2 cents:
a)fair change wasnt needed. it doesnt fall into the "too good" section like marth's db once did.
b)the change changes sheik's game drastically. on the one hand, the dair change itself hurts sheik a lot, on the other hand her game now evolves around juggling more which there are a lot better characters for (zss comes to mind) and doesnt fit sheik's overall playstile.
c)sheik is an excellent character, but her distinct weaknesses balance her out very well. thus, there is no reason to nerf her.

keep in mind this is mostly theorycraft since i cant test as a pal user, but i do know how sheiks unedited fair looks from vbrawl and thus it's still a well-informed post.

 

[stingers]

wait theres a new nightly this weekend?

oh hell yeah

 

[JCaesar]

we should discuss sheik's fair change since shanus said there's probably gonna be a new nightly this weekend.

my 2 cents:
a)fair change wasnt needed. it doesnt fall into the "too good" section like marth's db once did.
b)the change changes sheik's game drastically. on the one hand, the dair change itself hurts sheik a lot, on the other hand her game now evolves around juggling more which there are a lot better characters for (zss comes to mind) and doesnt fit sheik's overall playstile.
c)sheik is an excellent character, but her distinct weaknesses balance her out very well. thus, there is no reason to nerf her.

keep in mind this is mostly theorycraft since i cant test as a pal user, but i do know how sheiks unedited fair looks from vbrawl and thus it's still a well-informed post.

I agree, fair was never OPed, but it did overcentralize Sheik's game. As much as I personally hate the change and believe that it slows her down a lot, I do understand Ryoko's reasoning for it.

If we must keep the new fair, then I have one request: IASA frames near the end for side-B only. This would let her keep some of the gimp potential it used to have with run-off and off-stage fairs without putting her in a really bad position.

 

[Alphatron]

I agree with kupo's idea for crouch cancelling.

Also, seeing JCeasar's sig I now realize that Ness sucks. I demand a fair size boost x5 with freezing capabilities and a dtuant that semi spikes/paralyzes.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Great Crouch cancelling. I want lol. Now for manual l cancelling to distinguish men from boys pl0x.

 

[Alphatron]

To become a man, don't forget to push a button before hitting the ground.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I like auto l-cancelling better. >.>

 

[KOkingpin]

Great Crouch cancelling. I want lol. Now for manual l cancelling to distinguish men from boys pl0x.

kinda like saying the word "What"

/end Family guy

How about this: Melee CCing combined with heavy armor. Meaning that CCing will only work at low-mid %s (Melee CCing) and only against weak attacks (heavy armor). So you couldn't just CC a Ganon fair and punish him, but you could CC a jab and hit the jabber. I don't think that would be too game-changing and it could add an interesting little bit of depth.

And get those vids up already!

I like the idea ill say that. And the videos are uploading now its just pretty darn slow. Some one the good ones will be uploaded later though cause there were so many We didnt have time to record them all. (It took like 6-7 hours to record what we got cause Milln's Laptop overheated)

 

[GHNeko]

God **** it Shanus. Can't we release it at the end of the month instead lmao.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I just find it way too easy to play brawl+ which is what has turned me away from playing it. When someone u normally beat fine beats u and combos the heck out of u with little to no effort u know something is wrong. What are the reasonings for not having manual l cancelling anyway? It adds depth and yes, that single button press when landing makes a difference. It separates the noobs from the ones that know how to do it :/.

 

[shanus]

I hope people realize this glorified form of CC would mean a lit of moves which dont tumble would cast random tripping due to zero launch angle

 

[GHNeko]

I just find it way too easy to play brawl+ which is what has turned me away from playing it. When someone u normally beat fine beats u and combos the heck out of u with little to no effort u know something is wrong. What are the reasonings for not having manual l cancelling anyway? It adds depth and yes, that single button press when landing makes a difference.

Not this discussion again. *facepalm*

 

[shanus]

God **** it Shanus. Can't we release it at the end of the month instead lmao.

I didnt say anything i justbsaid itd be sooner than the month and a hakf wait the last one had

i also said it like a week ago

10nekofails

 

[GHNeko]

I didnt say anything i justbsaid itd be sooner than the month and a hakf wait the last one had

i also said it like a week ago

10nekofails

>_>

I stand by my statement of having next nightly released at the end of the month. V:<

 

[weinzey]

I agree, fair was never OPed, but it did overcentralize Sheik's game. As much as I personally hate the change and believe that it slows her down a lot, I do understand Ryoko's reasoning for it.

If we must keep the new fair, then I have one request: IASA frames near the end for side-B only. This would let her keep some of the gimp potential it used to have with run-off and off-stage fairs without putting her in a really bad position.

its not like it's the only move she uses. u still have ftilt, nair and grab that really get pushed to their limit. fair is just her staple move, which is fine. it also guarantees some true combos at low percents, which is appropriate since sheik doesnt have a comboe utilt which does the job for a lot of other chars.

also, keep in mind, noone complained about fair besides ryoko. that's only one opinion. and he didnt raise the best arguments for the change, other than leafgreen who described very well why it shouldnt be changed.
plus, it was just put into the nightly for testing purposes. thus, if there aint any (additional) negative feedback about the old fair/extremely positive feedback about the new one, we should revert the changes till there was at least a decent argument about it (cause taking the lazy way and leaving it in just because it's already in isnt the appropriate one and would harm the game).

 

[shanus]

I just find it way too easy to play brawl+ which is what has turned me away from playing it. When someone u normally beat fine beats u and combos the heck out of u with little to no effort u know something is wrong. What are the reasonings for not having manual l cancelling anyway? It adds depth and yes, that single button press when landing makes a difference. It separates the noobs from the ones that know how to do it :/.

If all that separates your ability to win is thatbyou can Lcancel then you are a noob anyway.


That is why I stand by things like my change to fox with his JC shine and nerfed dair. Significantly higher learning curve with identical potential. I'm all for more changes like it to other chars.

 

[weinzey]

>_>

I stand by my statement of having next nightly released at the end of the month. V:<

why?

if u want metagame to develop, wait 2 or 3 nightles till there's a new official. that's the right moment to develop metagame.
nightlies are for tweaking stuff which implies frequent changes.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Lol if you say so. U people are way too touchy. Im just saying it needs more depth and something to distinguish good players from bad ones. But w/e the + community is part of why i quit this game. U ppl flame everyone that says something u dont agree with. sheesh

 

[GHNeko]

its not like it's the only move she uses. u still have ftilt, nair and grab that really get pushed to their limit. fair is just her staple move, which is fine. it also guarantees some true combos at low percents, which is appropriate since sheik doesnt have a comboe utilt which does the job for a lot of other chars.

also, keep in mind, noone complained about fair besides ryoko. that's only one opinion. and he didnt raise the best arguments for the change, other than leafgreen who described very well why it shouldnt be changed.
plus, it was just put into the nightly for testing purposes. thus, if there aint any (additional) negative feedback about the old fair/extremely positive feedback about the new one, we should revert the changes till there was at least a decent argument about it (cause taking the lazy way and leaving it in just because it's already in isnt the appropriate one and would harm the game).

I complained about it, but it was in the backroom. Also, not everyone is vocal with their complaints.

why?

if u want metagame to develop, wait 2 or 3 nightles till there's a new official. that's the right moment to develop metagame.
nightlies are for tweaking stuff which implies frequent changes.

If you want metagame to develop, you let your current version fester. Metagame cant develop properly if there are changes constantly being made.

Officials are made primarily as stable releases for tourneys that are practically void of experimental stuff. The problem with that is that officials are updated so infrequently that what you develop for officials are usually tossed out the window because of all the changes of the nightly.

And considering nightly's are made for testing, we should have longer times between builds so that testing is more potent and reveals better information.

Lol if you say so. U people are way too touchy. Im just saying it needs more depth and something to distinguish good players from bad ones. But w/e the + community is part of why i quit this game. U ppl flame everyone that says something u dont agree with. sheesh

...L-Canceling isnt the right way to go. JC+ is the way right to go. JC Shine is the right way to go. TRUE ATs are the way to go. ATs that constantly have advatages and disadvantages when used and there are times where its NOT a good idea to use such AT. L-Canceling does not fit the criteria to be a TRUE AT.

 

[shanus]

Lol if you say so. U people are way too touchy. Im just saying it needs more depth and something to distinguish good players from bad ones. But w/e the + community is part of why i quit this game. U ppl flame everyone that says something u dont agree with. sheesh

No, you know it as well as I do that L cancelling doesn't make a good player. There was a long period of time in melee where I could L cancel just fine and was a scrub. It took me a long time and tourney experience to get legitimately good and I was calling you out on it since its a seriously flawed argument.

 

[Magus420]

I complained about it, but it was in the backroom. Also, not everyone is vocal with their complaints.

^^ Second.

 

[weinzey]

well, if u aint vocal, u wont be heard
what were ur arguments?

and btw, if fair is really too good (which i strongly disagree with), changing uair is the wrong way to take (imo), for reasons described above.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Well yeah :/ true . Wavedashing+lcancelling dont make a good player in melee. (but they did give u an edge) :S Perhaps situational or hard to do character specific ATs could be the way to widen the gap between players. Like fox's JC shine (which I like). I apologize if my posts came off as rude to some of u.

 

[shanus]

Well yeah :/ true . Wavedashing+lcancelling dont make a good player in melee. (but they did give u an edge) :S Perhaps situational or hard to do character specific ATs could be the way to widen the gap between players. Like fox's JC shine (which I like). I apologize if my posts came off as rude to some of u.

This is what I support. I am all for steepening the learning curve, but I think suffering attachments from the past for quick and dirty global ATs isnt the best decision. I think good planning and adjustments to diversify gameplay while removing the "autocombos" is an ideal approach.

I apologize for coming off as a ****, its just a shallow argument and after a long day of work I was being rather concise

 

[GHNeko]

well, if u aint vocal, u wont be heard
what were ur arguments?

and btw, if fair is really too good (which i strongly disagree with), changing uair is the wrong way to take (imo), for reasons described above.

My arguement against Shiek's fair was mostly about it's offstage utility. DI is null against Shiek's fair when you're both in the air/ you're both offstage.

Like, the fair's attributes and Shiek's grav/momentum work more than perfect, hand in hand.

Also, being vocal isnt the best way to be heard, though people think it is. It's being Smart. LOL.

Well yeah :/ true . Wavedashing+lcancelling dont make a good player in melee. (but they did give u an edge) :S Perhaps situational or hard to do character specific ATs could be the way to widen the gap between players. Like fox's JC shine (which I like). I apologize if my posts came off as rude to some of u.

character specific ATs are another form of TRUE AT, that we're looking for.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

hmmmmm character specific AT's..... I wish Jiggz had one >.> although she doesn't need one, nor could she really have one.

Although my other main, peach, already has low floating, which isn't an AT really, but it is unique so yeah.


Just my two cents. Not sayin' that all characters have to have a unique AT.

 

[MK26]

lol sheikant, the reason why we're so touchy about this subject is taht weve already had this discussion so many times before...

Officials are made primarily as stable releases for tourneys that are practically void of experimental stuff. The problem with that is that officials are updated so infrequently that what you develop for officials are usually tossed out the window because of all the changes of the nightly.

Then why not release the official build and a nightly at the same time? The former can be used for upcoming tourneys, and the latter is for testing. (note: yes, i see a few flaws with this)

Also, the fair exchange (no pun intended) could have been for an increase in bair's utility, perhaps as a damage racker or easier killer. Even after the nerf, the fair outranges it in every way.