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[kyubikirby]

CC'ing was really gay in melee. It's one of the things I disliked about melee, and I mained Peach.

agreed from another melee peach main.

 

[Deleted member]

absolutely add crouch canceling, it's not melee specific and is a legitimate form of DI.

if you melee peach mains hated crouch canceling, you didn't know how to play peach.

 

[GHNeko]

The closest thing to CCing is Boozer's SA Crawl (and Crouch. I swear to god he had it.)

And that's as far as its going to get.

Stop talking about it now.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

The closest thing to CCing is Boozer's SA Crawl (and Crouch. I swear to god he had it.)

And that's as far as its going to get.

Stop talking about it now.

i supersede your order for people to stop talking about CC. who are you to tell us what to talk about?

i'd like to know why people are so against CC. why do some people really dislike it? i mean, it's a tech which requires some thought, right? what's the problem? i don't prefer it either way, but i'm just interested in why there's so much opposition to it. (this isn't the first time i've heard melee players complain about it)

 

[Swordplay]

i supersede your order for people to stop talking about CC. who are you to tell us what to talk about?

i'd like to know why people are so against CC. why do some people really dislike it? i mean, it's a tech which requires some thought, right? what's the problem? i don't prefer it either way, but i'm just interested in why there's so much opposition to it. (this isn't the first time i've heard melee players complain about it)

A Tech that requires some thought..........


Maybe people just don't like that..................

NADT and L-cancel had similar logic (adding skill and thought to the game)
Of course the counter argument was that its a technical barrier that everyone will do thus not adding depth...

 

[DarkDragoon]

T.T I wish we had normal L-Canceling too...nothing like some tech skill to brighten up the day...
Just because everyone does it, it doesn't change the fact that people do occasionally mess up and are punished for it.*looks at Gannon*

But yea, I don't care what techs are added or not, as long as they are not ********.

-DD

 

[Shadic]

Wasn't the only reason you shouldn't CC in Melee Peach's Dsmash?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

A Tech that requires some thought..........


Maybe people just don't like that..................

NADT and L-cancel had similar logic (adding skill and thought to the game)
Of course the counter argument was that its a technical barrier that everyone will do thus not adding depth...

no. those 2 techs have completely different logic. l cancelling and nadt were attemps to just set up a barrier between newbs and ppl who want to be good, there was absolutely no reason to add them rather than to make the game harder to play. crouch cancelling on the other hand requires thought to use, it's not just an extra hurdle one has to jump over to accomplish something like l cancelling and nadt are.

 

[Swordplay]

interesting jiang.........

Perhaps I should refresh my melee skills.......I played characters where I CC'd a lot so to me I suppose it always seemed like one of the better options but I guess it varies more than I thought based on characters and play styles.

 

[DarkDragoon]

interesting jiang.........

Perhaps I should refresh my melee skills.......I played characters where I CC'd a lot so to me I suppose it always seemed like one of the better options but I guess it varies more than I thought based on characters and play styles.

>_> Yea. CC Peach's DSmash. It always helps.

If you're the one DSmashing.
-DD

 

[kr3wman]

Wasn't the only reason you shouldn't CC in Melee Peach's Dsmash?

Leaves you open for grabs.

And on the subject of relatively useful ATs, bring back Moonwalking.

Pros -

+You wouldn't need it to be relatively good
+It's mad sexy

Cons -

-None!

 

[DarkDragoon]

Leaves you open for grabs.

And on the subject of relatively useful ATs, bring back Moonwalking.

Pros -

+You wouldn't need it to be relatively good
+It's mad sexy

Cons -

-None!

Moonwalking was spawned from CC. It takes the added momentum and puts a horizontal direction with it.

At least that's how it would work using PSA...
-DD

 

[Alphatron]

I've seen some vids in which moonwalking was done before, and I've done it before with Cpt. Falcon online. I've no idea how to do it though.

And on L-cancelling, perhaps a drawback to failing to do it properly would work? You didn't fail to L-cancel in melee. Either you pushed the L button for auto benefit, or you didn't. Like grazing in every touhou game.

 

[thesage]

I found CC'ing pretty thoughtless and easy to do =/

I cc all the time as Peach, I just find the tech really gay. When someobody hits you with a move, they shouldn't be punished for it.

 

[grim mouser]

From what I gather, kupo's proposition would be for a modified CC, in which you would have to DI at impact (rather than simply hold down while being attacked). I don't think that would be broken.

 

[jalued]

From what I gather, kupo's proposition would be for a modified CC, in which you would have to DI at impact (rather than simply hold down while being attacked). I don't think that would be broken.

sounds like that could work, but still kinda lame if u fsamsh someone and then get punished for it...

no ideas for completely new AT? i wish powershielding would work well (like 1 frame where it works )

 

[MK26]

Kupo's proposal is basically giving the crouch start animation super armour. God that would be mad sexy with kirby...crouch taunt, when you get hit, eat the damage and counterattack. But then again, it would be kinda OP when used in conjunction with dash cancelling...

All we really need is allowing taunts to be canceled with other taunts within the first 5 frames of the animation. And techjumping

 

[cAm8ooo]

All we really need is allowing taunts to be canceled with other taunts within the first 5 frames of the animation.

Hiii..hiii.hiii.hiii.hiiiiiii...hiiiiiiiiiii. Totally sexy.


And yea, i can see how that would be pretty **** for kirby. Crouching becomes one of his best defense options. (dodge some things, super armor for other)

 

[Mattnumbers]

Kupo's proposal is basically giving the crouch start animation super armour. God that would be mad sexy with kirby...crouch taunt, when you get hit, eat the damage and counterattack. But then again, it would be kinda OP when used in conjunction with dash cancelling...

All we really need is allowing taunts to be canceled with other taunts within the first 5 frames of the animation. And techjumping

Thats not what he's saying.

What I THINK he means is that if you DI the hit soon enough (IE try to crouch during the first couple frames of the attack hitting you), then you will DI down more which will allow you to tech.

I think that would be cool because it sets up the other person for a tech chase. Also if you do it too close to the edge I imagine that you would just semi-spike yourself basically, so you shouldn't do it mindlessly.

If that's his idea then I agree with it.

 

[jalued]

Thats not what he's saying.

What I THINK he means is that if you DI the hit soon enough (IE try to crouch during the first couple frames of the attack hitting you), then you will DI down more which will allow you to tech.

I think that would be cool because it sets up the other person for a tech chase. Also if you do it too close to the edge I imagine that you would just semi-spike yourself basically, so you shouldn't do it mindlessly.

If that's his idea then I agree with it.

seconded, i would support that

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I would support this as well

 

[Almas]

Crouch Cancelling in Melee is caused by Automatic Smash DI down. You can be in the middle of a move, and holding down, and you will still get the Crouch Cancel Effect. It has nothing to do with actually crouching.

It's not always the superior option in that if you're fast enough to CC you're usually fast enough to shield, too. Many moves would knock you out of the radius in which you could punish, whilst shielding them would not cause this problem. Also to consider is that CCing loses it's effectiveness as a counterattacking technique as you become more damaged.

Dash Cancelling is responsible for Moonwalking in Melee. I believe I have seen similar occurrences in Brawl but they may be freak events or just not understood.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I moon walked before in vbrawl..it had something to do with two falcon techs but I forget what they were. one had something to do with a fakeout run before you hit the floor and I know that if you pivot and reduce speed depending on where u hold the control stick he'd slow down and run backwards but in place. sorry if that explanation was foggy but that's how id do it. harder than it sounds

 

[SketchHurricane]

While I see the depth traditional CC adds, I'd have to say it encourages the damaged player to camp, especially after a kill since the fresh player could CC the next hit for a practically guaranteed kill. It's definitely one of the reason CC is disliked.

The modified CC ideas above would be much better than traditional CC.

 

[Revven]

Yeah so just to the people who were complaining about MK pages ago, I've gotten some nice changes done here (it's only a few) and I tested something kinda cool. Here's what I did:

Removed invinc from grounded Shuttle Loop (now you will actually hit him when he does it! How cool is that?) It still has the same KB as it always has but, you can actually hurt him before the hitbox comes out. (Projectiles anyone?)

The Dthrow angle was changed. I tried many angles (namely higher ones) and then I decided that if the person was sent behind MK all MK could do is Bair (which is easily his worst aerial because of how easy the Bair is to SDI and/or how inconsistent the hits are). I tried a 150º angle first, which pretty much just made it have the same problem it had before: knocked them offstage too easily. So I tried 120º and indeed all MK can do is Bair. Which means, Dthrow is now just a damage throw since Bair is such a bad aerial. (Plus, there's no way he can turn around run and Fair you because by that time you're out of hitstun). And it also has shanus's KB changes so it's perfect now.

I tested his Fsmash without transcendent priority (the kinda cool test). And it worked pretty well but, like theorized it allowed him to clank with projectiles. He was able to hit Samus's Super Missiles and Homing Missile no problem. His Fsmash did clank with Samus's though, which was also good. But again, there's no chance we'll be doing this to all of his moves. I was thinking about doing it to his smashes but, I feel the SL no invinc and the Dthrow angle nerf are good enough for now. If there is anything else he would need, it would be something to Dair... but I think with the Dthrow nerf he can't get you offstage as easily now.

Just look forward to all that in the next build.

 

[kupo15]

o wow...dont add in crouch cancelling LOL. melee 2.0 here we come

CC'ing was really gay in melee. It's one of the things I disliked about melee, and I mained Peach.

no crouch canceling please.

agreed from another melee peach main.

I wish you guys would actually read what I said instead of shutting down the moment you read "CC"

From what I gather, kupo's proposition would be for a modified CC, in which you would have to DI at impact (rather than simply hold down while before being attacked). I don't think that would be broken.

Fixed but you understood correctly

sounds like that could work, but still kinda lame if u fsamsh someone and then get punished for it...
)

Tell me how you could get punished for it with my modified CC idea in combination with sliding teching. Tell me how the above is actually worse than what is in the game now. I am quite baffled

Kupo's proposal is basically giving the crouch start animation super armour. God that would be mad sexy with kirby...crouch taunt, when you get hit, eat the damage and counterattack. But then again, it would be kinda OP when used in conjunction with dash cancelling...

All we really need is allowing taunts to be canceled with other taunts within the first 5 frames of the animation. And techjumping

Say whaa? >_<

Thats not what he's saying.

What I THINK he means is that if you DI the hit soon enough (IE try to crouch during the first couple frames of the attack hitting you), then you will DI down more which will allow you to tech.

But if you screw up and time the crouch (also read as DI downward) too soon, then you won't have enough DI to tech giving you some nice "West coast DI."

I think that would be cool because it sets up the other person for a tech chase. Also if you do it too close to the edge I imagine that you would just semi-spike yourself basically, so you shouldn't do it mindlessly.

If that's his idea then I agree with it.

Pretty much correct though I just added a little. If you tech near the edge, in melee you would just slide off (no semi spike) but I doubt that would happen in brawl because of how ledges work.

 

[MK26]

awww i wanted to see the entire hitbox gone on sl... but dthrow sending backward is genius, but is it too much like kirby's? also, dashing pivot grab into dthrow into reverse shuttle loop sending the opponent way offstage. lets hope that that doesnt work.

would these modded cc options send the defender into a tech situation, or just one where he's crouched?

edit: kupo, sry for the misunderstanding...it was partly wishful thinking on my part

 

[SymphonicSage12]

why the hell would you want the entire hitbox gone on SL. that would be way too extreme nerfing. I mean it's a staple attack for him.

and it the opponent would be sent too far to reverse SL them. That or the endlag would be too much

 

[Revven]

awww i wanted to see the entire hitbox gone on sl... but dthrow sending backward is genius, but is it too much like kirby's? also, dashing pivot grab into dthrow into reverse shuttle loop sending the opponent way offstage. lets hope that that doesnt work.

It's nothing like Kirby's at all. It sends much farther back when you DI (even without DI you're pretty high up). He can't really do much from a dashing Dthrow. This is the best way to deal with this throw as far as angles go. If need be, I could increase the BKB on the throw some more but, I don't think that's going to be necessary (It's already at 80 BKB and 110 KBG!)

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait a minute.

What is the damage of the last hit?

Cuz by itself, dthrow sounds like a killing throw, lol.

 

[kupo15]

edit: kupo, sry for the misunderstanding...it was partly wishful thinking on my part

lol, I see. Well there are several ways to Modify Melee crouch canceling. I'll list them and you can talk about it amongst yourselves:
----------
MUST HAVE OPTIONS:

1.) The method I said above (Weaker Downward DI during a crouch OR maybe ALL animations EXCEPT Tumble hitstun and Aerials)
2.) Keep Melee's CC mechanic for TUMBLE hits ("No flinch" mechanic is NOT included, just insta knockdown slide when damage is high enough to cause tumble)
-----------------------------------
OPTIONAL:

--Add the SA to "crouch start" to one of the above. (This would be a little OP imo because its basically a stronger version of the "No flinch" CC state from melee except that there is no percent limit in disabling this. Basically, you could be "no flinch CC" at 999% which doesn't happen in melee.
--Bring back Melee's "No flinch" CC mechanic only during "Crouch start" and NOT "crouch" if you wanted to bring this back and add more skill to it.



Personally I think that option 1.) would fit B+ the best over option 2.) but both 1.) or 2.) would work so this crap doesn't happen with ease. (Sliding techs is also crucial to have which I already explained why and is demonstrated below. Picture where Samus would end up with sliding techs. Probably center of FD at the most)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jydhzmunjm5

 

[SketchHurricane]

It's nothing like Kirby's at all. It sends much farther back when you DI (even without DI you're pretty high up). He can't really do much from a dashing Dthrow. This is the best way to deal with this throw as far as angles go. If need be, I could increase the BKB on the throw some more but, I don't think that's going to be necessary (It's already at 80 BKB and 110 KBG!)

Is it possible with your changes to jab interrupt MK out of SL after Gair? That'd be awesome...

 

[Revven]

Is it possible with your changes to jab interrupt MK out of SL after Gair? That'd be awesome...

What do you mean? The invinc was at the start of SL on the ground... if you mean "can I stop MK from SL'ing again after he did his Gair?" then yeah of course because the invinc was on the first 5 frames of the move...

And it's not like you couldn't do anything to him after he Gaired your shield anyway, because Gair doesn't deal enough shieldstun so you can easily roll away before MK can do anything else to your shield.

Wait a minute.

What is the damage of the last hit?

Cuz by itself, dthrow sounds like a killing throw, lol.

The damage is 11% total, all the hits are 1%... it doesn't and won't kill..

 

[MK26]

why the hell would you want the entire hitbox gone on SL. that would be way too extreme nerfing. I mean it's a staple attack for him.

because kirby could then actually approach a grounded mk aerially

but seriously, we could maybe give it some super armour or something, cuz right now it's far and away the best all-around up-b in the game, and although it would be a very large nerf, i doubt it would be gamebreaking...after all, it still goes into his glide and gair.

 

[Revven]

because kirby could then actually approach a grounded mk aerially

He can definitely approach it now since the invinc on the dumb thing is gone lol...

I DO think taking away the hitbox is like a last resort sort of thing.

Edit: Oh you said aerially, didn't see that. Still, it's much easier to approach.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I think mk needs a tad more hitstun. forget about nerfing anything else of his. luigi needs more hitstun too. falcon could use less but not by too much. I wish I knew variables and technical lingo so I could say some numbers and phrases so I could understand stuff. falcons hitstun should start on frame 8 and end on 22 and should be cc with a jc(jceasar?) grab.

 

[SketchHurricane]

What do you mean? The invinc was at the start of SL on the ground... if you mean "can I stop MK from SL'ing again after he did his Gair?" then yeah of course because the invinc was on the first 5 frames of the move...

Yes, that's exactly what I was asking.

And it's not like you couldn't do anything to him after he Gaired your shield anyway, because Gair doesn't deal enough shieldstun so you can easily roll away before MK can do anything else to your shield.

Rolling away is one thing, but being able to jab into a mixup of your own is a big deal for some characters (Luigi?)

 

[Revven]

Yes, that's exactly what I was asking.



Rolling away is one thing, but being able to jab into a mixup of your own is a big deal for some characters (Luigi?)

Then yeah, you can do your jab mixups and stuff to it now. (When the next build is released anyway, whenever that is).

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I tried 120º and indeed all MK can do is Bair.

he cant turn around and Up-B right?
if he could pul out a back air then it seems to me he might be able to turn around/jump and use shuttle loop to hit them

 

[Stevo]

All the comments of people against CC clearly have no idea how to properly use crouch canceling in melee.

it was a technique that could backfire and it was rarely the best choice of defense. It simply just added more depth to the game. Also, the idea presented for CC in this thread by kupo15 to me seems like a good idea.

Maybe instead of freaking out, you guys could try it out?