Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[matt4300]

I didnt want bthrow buffed for link, im saying its useless and should stay useless. Your telling me the ness boards didnt know how to make ness better? Their main? thats suspect right there to me idk. In what smash game or any game representing bowser was he floaty, none so why add it? Give him something else not OP that makes bowser, bowser.

I know you didnt want bthrow buffed. I was letting you know why it wasent buffed. If he had a great grab (not throw) game then it might have been changed. Because it would have made him better in a way that benifits him most.
Man, you know its not that easy to come up with buffs that the WBR will actually use... your idea of how to buff link could be different than mine and SPs could be differnt than both ours. Its not that there was a shortage of ideas from mains it was (and still is) about makeing everyone as happy as possible while still makeing ness better.

LOL what smash game or game respresenting bowser was he any good? You **** him in most mario games and melee... obviously he had flaws that needed to be addressed. If there was a way to make bowser better in a more bowser way I'm sure it would be done. But that would require ALOT of buffs, Ideas, Time, and people to agree... Since there havent been a whole lot of complaints on his buffs or that he was OP. I'm gonna guess that hes not gonna be changed that drasticly.

EDIT:Why is there a stupid smiley on top of this post >_> I didnet put that there...

 

[Finns7]

Matt its just to me making him floaty isnt really addressing the core problem, its covering it up. If ness needs a buff to be viable he needs a buff but psi mgnet or w/e looks wonky that wind effect is overdone to me.

 

[matt4300]

Matt its just to me making him floaty isnt really addressing the core problem, its covering it up. If ness needs a buff to be viable he needs a buff but psi mgnet or w/e looks wonky that wind effect is overdone to me.

On the contrary. It is perfectly addressing his core problem. Which is that he Is huge and gets comboed all to hell and back. Covering it up would be buffing him in other areas until getting combo desroyed isent such a big deal to him... He would STILL get ***** by combos ... no amount of buffing to other moves will help that ... it would just cover it up. Do you realise how big a nerf to bowser more weight would be? He would take much more damage than the entire cast, His recovery wouldnet go as high, thus making gimping him easier and he woudent be able to reteat with his areials anymore.

If you want psi magnet back to its ****ty old self ... go to the ness boards and give some good buff ideas in exchange and see how many people actually agree with you... Psi magent was agreed upon by ness mains... It must do something for them (and me) I enjoy it personally its fun messing with people and eating recoveys... You have quite a bit of resistance to work against if you want it gone.

Btw how does psi magnet look wonky to you? Its animation wasnt changed and the animation for dispersing it looks like a psi push... It looks pretty cool to me.

 

[Plum]

Anybody else feel that Luigi's hitstun is fine?

He already has the lowest hitstun division constant available right? (I think it was Magus or Kaiser who did the math out, I could drag out the post if need be).
That means for a character with his weight, he is hit with the maximum amount of hitstun per attack that the game allows.

Math time!
Now, this formula could have changed but as far as I know it hasn't...
The formula for hitstun is h = m*l / d
h is the frames of hitstun
m is the the constant hitstun of the game (B+ uses .484 iirc)
l is the launch speed of a move
d is the division constant of a character (Luigi has the lowest, 32. Highest is 36. Lower will give you more hitstun, higher gives less)

Okay, so I found a number to plug in. At 0% another Luigi will be launched at 3752 mph from Luigi's grounded Up B.
Plug and chug from here.
h= (.484)(3752)/32
h= ~ 57 frames of hitstun (rounded to the nearest whole number)

Now lets check Peach. She is close to Luigi's weight, and her Nair is just as fast on hit as Luigi's.

0% grounded Up B on Peach will launch her at 3784 mph.
Plug and chug again.
h= (.484)(3784)/32
h= ~ 57 frames of hitstun (rounded to the nearest whole number)

Now I don't know Peach's hitstun constant. I'm assuming somebody of her physics is given a value of 32. If I am wrong, it can only be a higher number (anywhere from 33-36) which means she will in fact suffer even less hitstun.

I did further calculations (not going to bother to post them, this post would just get cluttered if I did) but I had to get perfect numbers to have Peach suffer an extra frame of hitstun more than Luigi given their slight weight differences (which is what causes them to have different yet still very close launch speeds)

So in most circumstances Peach is going to be in the same amount of hitstun as Luigi, and just the same as Luigi she has a frame 3 Nair. Let's give her more hitstun too :V

The topic might have changed from when I'm posting this (took me a while to work get numbers, and calculations) but the point stands; Luigi is fine.

Spoiler

Falcon on the other hand...

 

[matt4300]

Anybody else feel that Luigi's hitstun is fine?

All that makes since but you forget that luigi is a moon man so even if he has the highest possible hitstun he still hovers in the air to long to continue a combo for most chars... He doesnt fall onto the next attack in a combo like most chars do he hovers right out of range. Wich is why hes not comboed like most. It doenst hurt that while hes hovering right out of range to recovery he just flicks on his nair and fast falls to break whatever you might have had going lol.

TLDR= He may have the highest possible hitstun but that doenst mean that he still doesnt get comboed like other chars.

 

[Yingyay]

Man, the only thing that should be tweaked is falling speed and attribute things. Everything or anything else is pointless. Things are gonna keep getting tweaked, buffed, and nerfed forever at this rate. I could've sworn, a couple of builds ago that most of the characters are/were fine. Bowser is fine, his fallspeed and all. Just learn to play him, Ness's wind buff is okay since when sakurai implemented it, it was pretty useless. Also, leave swimming stages alone, i mean jungle japes never struck me as a competitive stage to begin with. 2 small platforms and a less than mid size platform surrounded by water? Yeah not a serious tournament match stage.

This moon gravity thing..........wuts this all about? Come on lets just worry about characters and stuff instead of changing the stages that aren't even picked often enough or is unfair enough to warrant a change like this. Unless someone can explain the moon gravity thing to me 100%

Air-dodging.......It's kinda late to be changing something like this isnt it? The same with all the people whinning about adding AT's to the game. Seriously, if you want an AT win a tournament with Yoshi. That right there is a AT.

Spot-Dodging........Seriously, if someone is spamming them and you cant get past it you need to buff your skillz and not nerf the technique.

Taunt Canceling, you could easily just edit the pac file for that character and stfu about it on the board. Seriously.

 

[CountKaiser]

Anybody else feel that Luigi's hitstun is fine?

He already has the lowest hitstun division constant available right? (I think it was Magus or Kaiser who did the math out, I could drag out the post if need be).
That means for a character with his weight, he is hit with the maximum amount of hitstun per attack that the game allows.

Math time!
Now, this formula could have changed but as far as I know it hasn't...
The formula for hitstun is h = m*l / d
h is the frames of hitstun
m is the the constant hitstun of the game (B+ uses .484 iirc)
l is the launch speed of a move
d is the division constant of a character (Luigi has the lowest, 32. Highest is 36. Lower will give you more hitstun, higher gives less)

Okay, so I found a number to plug in. At 0% another Luigi will be launched at 3752 mph from Luigi's grounded Up B.
Plug and chug from here.
h= (.484)(3752)/32
h= ~ 57 frames of hitstun (rounded to the nearest whole number)

Now lets check Peach. She is close to Luigi's weight, and her Nair is just as fast on hit as Luigi's.

0% grounded Up B on Peach will launch her at 3784 mph.
Plug and chug again.
h= (.484)(3784)/32
h= ~ 57 frames of hitstun (rounded to the nearest whole number)

Now I don't know Peach's hitstun constant. I'm assuming somebody of her physics is given a value of 32. If I am wrong, it can only be a higher number (anywhere from 33-36) which means she will in fact suffer even less hitstun.

I did further calculations (not going to bother to post them, this post would just get cluttered if I did) but I had to get perfect numbers to have Peach suffer an extra frame of hitstun more than Luigi given their slight weight differences (which is what causes them to have different yet still very close launch speeds)

So in most circumstances Peach is going to be in the same amount of hitstun as Luigi, and just the same as Luigi she has a frame 3 Nair. Let's give her more hitstun too :V

The topic might have changed from when I'm posting this (took me a while to work get numbers, and calculations) but the point stands; Luigi is fine.

Spoiler

Falcon on the other hand...

You forget that

A. Luigi's launch speed is traditionally lower than most people's, thus resulting in less hitstun.
B. Along with A, he's launched about as far, if not farther, than peach.

And I believe this has all to do with fall speed.

The larger someone's fall speed is, the more launch speed they'll have.

This explains why Jiggs gets 3869 and why G&W get's 3948 from Luigi's UpB, even though they are launch around the same height.

And you're calculations are wrong anyway, since the hitstun constant is .4865. :V

 

[timothyung]

People are messing up weight and fall speed again... and the reason Bowser it so floaty is that... ask Sakurai.

This moon gravity thing..........wuts this all about? Come on lets just worry about characters and stuff instead of changing the stages that aren't even picked often enough or is unfair enough to warrant a change like this. Unless someone can explain the moon gravity thing to me 100%

Air-dodging.......It's kinda late to be changing something like this isnt it? The same with all the people whinning about adding AT's to the game. Seriously, if you want an AT win a tournament with Yoshi. That right there is a AT.

Spot-Dodging........Seriously, if someone is spamming them and you cant get past it you need to buff your skillz and not nerf the technique.

Taunt Canceling, you could easily just edit the pac file for that character and stfu about it on the board. Seriously.

moon gravity thing: You fall slowly in the water. No swimming. And the swimming mechanic is stupid and warrants a change. Jungle Japes and Pirate Ship would likely get better with this change. Not sure about Delfino though.

Air-dodging: We're already late. So we must do it now.

Spot-Dodging: You think we are changing them just because we can't handle them? Of course not. Most spot dodges have too much invincible time, making them too powerful. This change will promote a more aggressive gameplay.

Taunt Canceling: We want it in official Brawl+.

 

[GHNeko]

Swimming isnt stupid. :/

It just doesnt work 100% in tune with Plus.

Just like how wall jumping is limited to "sweetspots" on certain stages.

You guys sure do like to remove mechanics. <_<

 

[timothyung]

Swimming isnt stupid. :/

It just doesnt work 100% in tune with Plus.

Just like how wall jumping is limited to "sweetspots" on certain stages.

You guys sure do like to remove mechanics. <_<

Sakurai did a bad job on water mechanics... As we can't easily redo it, removing it is the best choice. Or redo it in a simple way.

And yeah, we should be able to wall jump on any wall

tl;dr: SAAAAAAAKUUUUUUURAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

 

[GHNeko]

We havnt even tried to fix it.

Lazy *******s. V:

tbh, I dont think it's that big of a problem but maybe that's the casual in me talking. <_>

 

[CountKaiser]

Apparently anything added into smash bros. post-melee is stupid and should be removed, and is apparently unsalvageable.

 

[GHNeko]

Footstool > Tipped Dair. <333333

 

[timothyung]

Apparently anything added into smash bros. post-melee is stupid and should be removed, and is apparently unsalvageable.

Not anything...just many of them. Footstool is good but is poorly implemented. Swimming, again, is poorly implemented. If we can improve it, why not?

Something really bad are auto sweetspot, attacking out of hitstun...

 

[GHNeko]

I think what makes water really bad is when you're under, you can only go straight up.

I bet majority of the problems with water would be alleviated if you could move left and right while rising to the surface when in water.

That and reduce the lag from entrance a bit.

 

[Alphatron]

Water would be much better if swimming was like the aquatic version of being in the air. As in, you get to actually use attacks in the water, instead of flailing around.

I think part of the reason, people yell out EZ is because the characters have been buffed a fair amount. I don't want to see any more buffs until some metagame gets developed. Rather, I'd like to see some more char ATs.

Like giving Zelda more endlag on NL, but giving it IASA on hit only. Making the move more useful for defense.

 

[PKNintendo]

Pk I think if ness needed buffs they should of went somewhere else, Lucas in my eyes is such a EZ character now, I dont think he was that terrible to begin with.

Someone is full of ****.

Lucas barely got any buffs. Him being good now is atrributed to the new game.

 

[MK26]

+1 to iasa for airdodges that allows you to cancel it to any action at the regular time except puts a small (maybe 5-frame) window after the regular end of the airdodge where you cannot initiate an air dodge again.

Same for spot-dodging/rolling and dead frames before you can shield again.

nothing? no input at all? It's a small change, so it wont be difficult to get used to, and it solves the problem of defensive play that isnt punishable enough...and it adds depth :D

Also, Lucas is fine as-is. Dsmash moar.

 

[PKNintendo]

nothing? no input at all? It's a small change, so it wont be difficult to get used to, and it solves the problem of defensive play that isnt punishable enough...and it adds depth :D

Also, Lucas is fine as-is. Dsmash moar.

I know, people just state that Lucas has plehtora of buffs because they associate him Ness.
Mother boy syndrome from.

Very lethal.

 

[proteininja]

I understand that characters have bad matchups, but I was playing my bowser against my friend's falcon.

This is not just a bad match up. Its **** near impossible not to get four stocked. Let alone win.

Two disclaimer's before people show up with "l2p" comments. My friend is easily the best falcon in brawl+(he was in the original backroom, and has played smash his whole life), and two I can sometimes beat him with shiek and maybe ness if he's messing around.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to win against falcon with bowser. There are 8 million combo's that no matter how you tech, di, or ad falcon has the options to easily read or predict your actions to the point where no choice can save you.

The main problems I see with Bowser in this matchup are lack of di power(other characters can di down and away from captain's down throw to avoid a sweetspotted knee, bowser cannot avoid the sweet spotted knee at any percent from a d-throw) and size(which is unchangable). These problems with bowser recure among many matchups with characters with sweet spots(zelda, falcon, ness, etc).

I do not know how the these problems, but currently the only neutral match ups bowser has are heavy's and some projectile spammers(because of the super armor on crawl) which is not much of the cast. The fact that captain falcon(and other characters) can 0 to death combo bowser makes his extra weight meaningless as he can't live to recover when blasted off the stage witha knee.

Thick skin was a bandaid at the beginning of brawl+'s life for some of bowser's problems, but was found to be overpowered against very low damage attacks. I propose a new version of thick skin that can most likely be implemented with CAM or PSA. This new thick skin will make bowser impervious to sweet spot hitboxes. He will always be affected with the weak hitbox if the sweet spot connects. I think this is a balanced mechanic as it does not reduce damage. It also gives bowser more time to rack up damage against characters like falcon before they spike him or combo him off stage. It also brings bowser's weight into accordance as they cannot simply blast him off stage. They must combo him to a high enough percent that they can kill him with another kill move.

This change is only really to help bowser in those match ups with characters who have aerial sweetspots(falcon, marth, zelda, ness), so that it is not ridiculously easy to combo into a sweetspotted aerial and kill bowser at 50 or 60 percent near the edge of the stage.

Please at least try this in a nightly if it is possible. Perhaps only make it for aerial sweetspots, but I believe it should be for all(ness's bat etc). This stays in line with bowser's character(he's an f-ing turtle), and does not help him in every match up(BALANCED). Please discuss and consider. In a game where almost every character is given combos bowser is a said dragon-turtle-dinosaur...thing.

 

[cAm8ooo]

^^^ So your telling me you want to be one of the heaviest characters in the game as well not be able to be killed by a lot of kill moves (kirby's fsmash, falcons knee, marth's d-air and fsmash)?

Sounds like extreme over kill for a character that isnt as bad as you claim.

 

[Demacrez]

I understand that characters have bad matchups, but I was playing my bowser against my friend's falcon.

This is not just a bad match up. Its **** near impossible not to get four stocked. Let alone win.

Two disclaimer's before people show up with "l2p" comments. My friend is easily the best falcon in brawl+(he was in the original backroom, and has played smash his whole life), and two I can sometimes beat him with shiek and maybe ness if he's messing around.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to win against falcon with bowser. There are 8 million combo's that no matter how you tech, di, or ad falcon has the options to easily read or predict your actions to the point where no choice can save you.

The main problems I see with Bowser in this matchup are lack of di power(other characters can di down and away from captain's down throw to avoid a sweetspotted knee, bowser cannot avoid the sweet spotted knee at any percent from a d-throw) and size(which is unchangable). These problems with bowser recure among many matchups with characters with sweet spots(zelda, falcon, ness, etc).

I do not know how the these problems, but currently the only neutral match ups bowser has are heavy's and some projectile spammers(because of the super armor on crawl) which is not much of the cast. The fact that captain falcon(and other characters) can 0 to death combo bowser makes his extra weight meaningless as he can't live to recover when blasted off the stage witha knee.

Thick skin was a bandaid at the beginning of brawl+'s life for some of bowser's problems, but was found to be overpowered against very low damage attacks. I propose a new version of thick skin that can most likely be implemented with CAM or PSA. This new thick skin will make bowser impervious to sweet spot hitboxes. He will always be affected with the weak hitbox if the sweet spot connects. I think this is a balanced mechanic as it does not reduce damage. It also gives bowser more time to rack up damage against characters like falcon before they spike him or combo him off stage. It also brings bowser's weight into accordance as they cannot simply blast him off stage. They must combo him to a high enough percent that they can kill him with another kill move.

This change is only really to help bowser in those match ups with characters who have aerial sweetspots(falcon, marth, zelda, ness), so that it is not ridiculously easy to combo into a sweetspotted aerial and kill bowser at 50 or 60 percent near the edge of the stage.

Please at least try this in a nightly if it is possible. Perhaps only make it for aerial sweetspots, but I believe it should be for all(ness's bat etc). This stays in line with bowser's character(he's an f-ing turtle), and does not help him in every match up(BALANCED). Please discuss and consider. In a game where almost every character is given combos bowser is a said dragon-turtle-dinosaur...thing.

QFT!

lolcharizards.

 

[proteininja]

^^^ So your telling me you want to be one of the heaviest characters in the game as well not be able to be killed by a lot of kill moves (kirby's fsmash, falcons knee, marth's d-air and fsmash)?

Sounds like extreme over kill for a character that isnt as bad as you claim.

Yes, and his is as bad as I claim. Few people get the chance to get 4 stocked by the very best, and see how truly powerless they are to resist.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

You didn't get 4 stocked because bowser sucks. You got 4 stocked because the player was better than you. You even ****ing admitted this.

You seriously need to learn some tactics with bowser.


How about countering a whiffed smash or punch with bowser's awesome air grab that does 18%? How about you OoS up b him with your 5 frames of invincibility at startup? How about you throw him off the stage and gimp him?

Bowser has plenty of tools at his disposable. Much more so than Captain Falcon.


tl;dr It's not Bowser. It's you.

 

[camelot]

Bowser's huge size, which in return makes him very vulnerable to sweetspots, is a weakness he's always had... making him immune to sweetspots would probably be near-impossible and/or a huge hassle to implement (you'd actually have to edit the other characters' attacks to say "this can't happen if it hits Bowser").

I can't honestly say what's needed for Bowser. With PSA we can actually edit weight directly (it's at 120 for Bowser), but people have said that they don't want to just increase his weight to make him more viable. The sweetspot-immunity thing, I wouldn't get your hopes up for either.

edit: also, see SymphonicSage's above post

 

[SymphonicSage12]

BTW the peach mains had enough trouble trying to get a very small change (peach bomber having more KBG), I mean there was a big argument.

How do think the IMMUNITY TO SWEETSPOTS LOL KNEEZ LOLOLOL is gonna go over with the WBR?

 

[timothyung]

But you can also combo Falcon... I believe you can utilt/uair, fsmash >.>
And remember you have the throws, upB, and stuff.
Also try DIing up instead of down all the time

This matchup certainly isn't impossible. Falcon might be a counter of Bowser, but it isn't impossible. Try harder.

 

[proteininja]

You didn't get 4 stocked because bowser sucks. You got 4 stocked because the player was better than you. You even ****ing admitted this.

You seriously need to learn some tactics with bowser.


How about countering a whiffed smash or punch with bowser's awesome air grab that does 18%? How about you OoS up b him with your 5 frames of invincibility at startup? How about you throw him off the stage and gimp him?

Bowser has plenty of tools at his disposable. Much more so than Captain Falcon.


tl;dr It's not Bowser. It's you.

I already said that I have the capability to beat him with other characters, so though I admit he is better than me. I should have a choice as to whether or not I get four stocked with bowser. I don't.

A good falcon doesn't Falcon Punch unless they are mocking you. A good falcon only uses one smash attack, down smash, and only to punish someone who rolls two much. A good falcon will land his aerials behind you so you cannot shield grab. A good falcon will not let you grab him( if you could consistently grab people in smash. IC's would be top tier in melee). Please play a good falcon before you berrate me with your unknowledge.

Which brings me to my next point. So few people in brawl+ have seen GOOD falcons. Go watch Isea play melee falcon, or watch "I killed mufasa" on youtube. The most recent "featured"video of the week on brawlplus.net had one of the worst falcons I've seen in it.
If you think that is what falcon is capable of, then you have no idea how good he can be in the right hands.

 

[proteininja]

But you can also combo Falcon... I believe you can utilt/uair, fsmash >.>
And remember you have the throws, upB, and stuff.
Also try DIing up instead of down all the time

This matchup certainly isn't impossible. Falcon might be a counter of Bowser, but it isn't impossible. Try harder.

with two people of equally high skill. It is impossible. Maybe with two people who are equally bad.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hmm.. if you want to give bowser immunity to sweetspots, let's go ahead and give it donkey kong, d3, rob, snake....all the fatties and heavies. let's make all the heavies OP and remove all their weaknesses while we're at it.


Oh and let's make the knee do triple damage on squirtle, since it's harder to land on him, it should be higher reward, right?

and I do not have unknowledge.

I know how good captian falcon can be in good hands.


I also know how good BOWSER can be in good hands.


so **** you for not playing bowser well enough. Lrn2Play against falcon. Seriously, the matchup is NOT impossible. You just aren't good enough with bowser against your friend.

But of course a snotty, mean, stuck up brawler would NEVER admit that they suck with a character, right?


:V Either way Bowser isn't gonna get that change. So stop complaining about it.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

I agree with the bowser guy, but I really think its a match-up thing. I **** bowser hard, like prison style soap drop no protection anal style hard with CF, but other match-ups will change too with the desired buffs. some characters just have to stay bleh. I picked up TL for what CF can't do. just pick up another character and you'll be fine

 

[proteininja]

Hmm.. if you want to give bowser immunity to sweetspots, let's go ahead and give it donkey kong, d3, rob, snake....all the fatties and heavies. let's make all the heavies OP and remove all their weaknesses while we're at it.


Oh and let's make the knee do triple damage on squirtle, since it's harder to land on him, it should be higher reward, right?

and I do not have unknowledge.

I know how good captian falcon can be in good hands.


I also know how good BOWSER can be in good hands.


so **** you for not playing bowser well enough. Lrn2Play against falcon. Seriously, the matchup is NOT impossible. You just aren't good enough with bowser against your friend.

But of course a snotty, mean, stuck up brawler would NEVER admit that they suck with a character, right?


:V Either way Bowser isn't gonna get that change. So stop complaining about it.

Yeah if you do it to one heavy do it to all of them. They are all exactly the same after all.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

People complained about the DK v D3 matchup in vbrawl. It wasn't that hard as long as you knew what you were doing. >.>


and I never said all fatties were the same. They just all get hit by sweetspots easier


So let's remove the core weakness of being a fatty and make them immune to sweetspots. That's totally fair and unbiased, right?


/sarcasm


:V

 

[proteininja]

I agree with the bowser guy, but I really think its a match-up thing. I **** bowser hard, like prison style soap drop no protection anal style hard with CF, but other match-ups will change too with the desired buffs. some characters just have to stay bleh. I picked up TL for what CF can't do. just pick up another character and you'll be fine

I have mah ness. I am perfectly aware that the change I proposed was extreme, but I would be satisfied with any other help he can get. My main point is that is that it is not just a bad match up. Its very near impossible.

 

[timothyung]

You are good with some characters doesn't mean you are good at Bowser

 

[Shell]

I had a long post typed out but my internet died and I lost it... The gist of it was that Bowser's Forward and Backward throws can now wreck Captain Falcon, so work on playing defensively with Tilts and Fortress OoS until you can get CF off the stage and then try to pull some Pro-Boozer-Edgeguarding. I will try to play this matchup more and come back with more thorough advice.

 

[proteininja]

I had a long post typed out but my internet died and I lost it... The gist of it was that Bowser's Forward and Backward throws can now wreck Captain Falcon, so work on playing defensively with Tilts and Fortress OoS until you can get CF off the stage and then try to pull some Pro-Boozer-Edgeguarding. I will try to play this matchup more and come back with more thorough advice.

I will try, and thank you. I just wanted to bring it to the attention of WBR, and it seems I have.

/rant

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Btw, they are nerfing the knee's sweetspot in the next build anyways. like making it smaller or something. Just less cheap. tee hee

 

[cAm8ooo]

I already said that I have the capability to beat him with other characters, so though I admit he is better than me. I should have a choice as to whether or not I get four stocked with bowser. I don't.

A good falcon doesn't Falcon Punch unless they are mocking you. A good falcon only uses one smash attack, down smash, and only to punish someone who rolls two much. A good falcon will land his aerials behind you so you cannot shield grab. A good falcon will not let you grab him( if you could consistently grab people in smash. IC's would be top tier in melee). Please play a good falcon before you berrate me with your unknowledge.

Which brings me to my next point. So few people in brawl+ have seen GOOD falcons. Go watch Isea play melee falcon, or watch "I killed mufasa" on youtube. The most recent "featured"video of the week on brawlplus.net had one of the worst falcons I've seen in it.
If you think that is what falcon is capable of, then you have no idea how good he can be in the right hands.

A good bowser knows what moves to use at the appropriate time , a good bowser uses all his smash attacks to optimal capacity. A good bowser will space and time his aerials so that he cant be punished. A good bowser will find ways to grab you and then use his good throws to the best of his ability.

People can play ^ this game forever, it doesnt prove anything. If people were perfect and could do all the things you mentioned 100% of the time then not only would bowser not be able to beat falcon, but NO ONE could, and we know this just isnt true.

Falcon is probably a good counter to bowser, but far from impossible. One matchup doesnt merit the MASSIVE buff you want for bowser. Possibly the biggest buff in the game. There are few things wrong with it:

1. Probably incredible hard to implement and too much of a hassle to look into.
2. Way too good of a buff that completely changes the game by limiting everyone's kill options against bowser to too much of a degree.

There is also some other things wrong with your statements:

1. You mentioned we dont know what a good falcon can do and want us to watch isai from melee im guessing because your saying brawl+ falcon is capable of the same things. I agree falcon's metagame right now is not pushed to the limit (as well as everyone else) but even 8 years of CF from some of the best smash players in the world didnt bring him out of high tier (Melee tier list) Im sure that melee falcon also ***** bowser as well.


Ill wait for Cape to come in and make his statements but from what i can tell Bowser does not need another buff and if he does dont get your hopes up for one has big as this.

 

[FrozenHobo]

make the sweetspot smaller and change the angle of his dthrow so it doesn't set up for such easy kills.