PKNintendo
Smash Master
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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)
- Thread starter shanus
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SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
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- 3,299
Yeah, I guess making it set up for super gimps is not good.... but how can you tweak it so that it doesn't techchase or combo?
Haha, ive always toyed with the fact that you guys should just nerf Metaknight so horrribly, that he becomes midtier or something, and then fix him and buff him from there. Ive always wondered what getting rid of the hitbox on his upb would do to his game. He wouldnt be able to finish people off after his upair combos, and would be able to be edgeguarded.
Also ive heard people suggesting that you should get rid of some of his jumps, it would help alot, and it wouldnt hurt him that bad, he could still sideb onto the stage for recovery, and could glide under the stage and grab the ledge on the other side. Metaknight just needs more skill to use..I still cant bring myself to use him. MOAR NERFS!
Also ive heard people suggesting that you should get rid of some of his jumps, it would help alot, and it wouldnt hurt him that bad, he could still sideb onto the stage for recovery, and could glide under the stage and grab the ledge on the other side. Metaknight just needs more skill to use..I still cant bring myself to use him. MOAR NERFS!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
by c/p'ing parts of the post and then putting {quote}{/quote} around them...? jeez man l2forum scrub Sage
sooooo basically... neither were the best character.....
are like all of you guys from the west coast or something? you shouldn't be getting uair comboed for long.... rofl.
Revven
FrankerZ
If you're suggesting a "take away transcendent priority" nerf, that isn't really going to work. The issue with that is he can then just clank with projectiles like Link's boomerang or TL's boomerang, getting rid of a weakness he currently has (the best he can do to projectiles is shield or AD or sidestep...) So, it's a double edged sword really...
Maybe rebuiling him like we did Marth would work, maybe. But his move set is just way too perfect, the only two moves you will never see an MK use are Utilt and Usmash. Jumps is an interesting idea, but again, we'll go over him again I guess.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
The point is that they were both considered overpowered.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
How to Fix MK:
Get rid of Up B Hitbox
Make Dthrow like Falco's Dthrow from Melee
Take away 2 jumps
Give Dair more ending lag
just some ideas
Get rid of Up B Hitbox
Make Dthrow like Falco's Dthrow from Melee
Take away 2 jumps
Give Dair more ending lag
just some ideas
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
1. nerfing up b like that would be way too extreme. and I like that move. Just nerf it's KB more or something.
2. I actually lik this idea.
3. Sure...
4. I like this too.
But Meta Knight IS the one walking around with transcendent priority and disjointed range, as well as what is probably the safest aerials in the game. It's exactly why air planking has become an actual force to be reckoned with; Uair and Dair cover an arc above/below him and combined with his multiple jumps he is practically untouchable (some exceptions such as projectiles and Samus/Link Zairs).
There is usually SOME sort of risk in gimping, and MK is the one character that basically NEVER puts himself at risk when he goes offstage. His Dair is the PERFECT gimp move. hitting with the max range of the move gives him a semispike that he can repeatedly use to gimp virtually every character if he is in the right position.
There are things that were nerfed with MK. Essentially his easy to land/reliable KO options (Dsmash and Shuttle Loop) a tool in his pressure/spacing game (Dtilt) and the utility of Tornado.
Yes, certain aspects of him have been nerfed but he still retains the safest options in the game, and the best gimping abilities in the game. He may not combo as well as other characters, but he still has every ability to limit your options while keeping himself safe.
Though the physics of the game makes his weaknesses exploitable. He is light weight, his lack of mobility makes him fairly susceptible to combos (more so than other light weights), and hitstun does allow punishment (not just the one hit vBrawl stuff). There are characters who can abuse his weaknesses in B+ physics and he may have legit counters now. Regardless, he is more than likely the best character in the game.
I'm not saying he needs more nerfs or not, just laying down facts that you seem to not know or be aware of as you post. I will agree with the WBR looking over what has been done to him though; Zeon has a point. The nerfs make certain moves less effective than their vBrawl counterparts but in the grand scale do nothing to hinder his ability to dominate.
MK is a tough case though. You can take away his priority or range (on a move like Ftilt which even outranges Marth's Fsmash) but that is probably taking things too far. Destroying character aspects on that level should be avoided. You can't just get rid of his multiple jumps, or amazing recovery (okay, we CAN, but dear God that would be stupid).
Things can be reworked to dampen the things that really do make him continue to dominate. Something like nerfing Dair's semispike angle, using PSA to remove GLair's autocancel on landing (actually giving it landing lag), but before that happens the game really needs more time to stabilize. Matchups still haven't been worked out to their full extent (especially because some characters might not even be ready for release candidate). Given more proof (one tournament can never be considered enough proof, or even several given the lack of B+ OOS tournaments) then further action should be taken.
TL;DR
MK still has what it takes to dominate. He may have counterpicks however, and his weaknesses CAN be taken advantage of in B+ physics. The current nerfs don't touch on what MK does best: limiting options while being safe himself, and gimping. Retouching MK may be the right option in the future and reworked nerfs could limit his greatest aspects without killing the character. Though we need further proof before those actions are taken.
D
Deleted member
Guest
buff Nado and make it damage MK like pichu-stylez
The Night Cat
Smash Cadet
Not on-topic:
I was just messing around with with foxes new shine and I found that with really good timing, not in a regular match and using claw-grip (which I don't normally), you can sort of double shine without leaving the ground. Not saying this is good or bad and I don't think you can catch them after the knockback of the first shine hits them away.
Edit: Actually I can't remember if I tested JCing the second shine and then seeing if I still had a double jump so it might just look like a grounded shineJCshine.
I was just messing around with with foxes new shine and I found that with really good timing, not in a regular match and using claw-grip (which I don't normally), you can sort of double shine without leaving the ground. Not saying this is good or bad and I don't think you can catch them after the knockback of the first shine hits them away.
Edit: Actually I can't remember if I tested JCing the second shine and then seeing if I still had a double jump so it might just look like a grounded shineJCshine.
grim mouser
Smash Journeyman
IDK, can you shine-cancel a jump like in Melee (that is, shine during the jump's start animation to stop the jump)?
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
So I just read through the over 650 posts in this thread that I've missed in the past couple days. Frick you people talk a lot. Anyway, I had a ton of quotes lined up, but it seems like one by one they each became obsoleted as the thread went on. So instead of actually quoting people and responding, I'll give a general response to each of the major topics in this thread. I'll separate my post into sections, so you can skip over parts you don't care about.
---
First off, lucas zair.
Stingers made a great post on this which seemed to get largely ignored in favour of the fanboys with little to no real argument. I think he brings up some valid points, and the move can be worked as a way to regain momentum/space in a match without breaking it. Giving it low damage, a low angle, and fairly consistent kb would turn it into a techchase starter, which as people mentioned... lucas already has several of those. The difference is that zair would trade damage for range. He would have to work harder for damage when using zair, getting only 3-4% on hit, as opposed to something more like 10 or 11% with other options. You can get away with just putting a foe in a compromised position with higher damage moves, even if you don't get any direct followups, but with zair, he'll really need to predict right to get any real reward from landing it, even though the move would be easier to land than many of his other options due to its range. It will not suddenly make him a great character, but instead give him a way to gain some footing in a match, where he still has to predict correctly after landing one.
I'd also like to note that I'm not a big fan of the idea of adding moves to the game, but I think lucas's zair is acceptable. Largely because the move is - for all practical purposes - already programmed. The input for lucas's zair results in an established animation playing, the input is not a taunt, the effect of the input is not movement oriented, and the effect of the input does not switch you to a different character. In fact, it is the only non-movement and non-taunt animation in the game to not have a hitbox that does not also switch characters. Lucario's upB doesn't have a hitbox, but it's used for movement (not only recovering, but also for offense). Peach's downB doesn't technically have a hitbox, but it spawns an item that does have a hitbox. Independent pokemon's downBs don't have a hitbox, but they don't even have an animation to begin with; it's not that independent pokemon don't have a hitbox on their downB, it's that they don't have a downB... period, and if we were to give them a downB that would truly be adding a move in its most literal definition. This is the major difference, here. Lucas's zair already has an established animation. Yes, it's a substantial edit, but it is just that - an edit. It is not adding a move, but rather editing an already existing one. Since this is technically merely editing an existing move rather than adding a whole new one (again, the animation that plays as a result of this input is the same after the edit as it was before it), people trying to push for completely reinventing a move by giving it a new animation will have no precedent to justify their change. So I say... why not? Give it a try in a nightly. If it gets turned down, no harm done. If it gets accepted, also no harm done.
---
Next, there's the topic of kirby.
Cam made a great post on this, I think, which does help put things into perspective. I've largely been of the opinion that kirby is fine as he is ever since the fsmash nerf was put in. Perhaps a small nerf on bair, but other than that, I figured just let him be. This post made it a lot clearer what the nerf should actually be. A damage nerf would not wreck the move, and it would still be extremely important to kirby's playstyle. It would still kill well, it would still gimp, and it would still combo. It just wouldn't rack damage as fast while doing it. It would make the move less safe on shields, as well.
---
Buffer texture hack.
What can I say? It's awesome. It should definitely be made part of the official texture package, along with independent pokemon portraits.
---
Now, for the metaknight discussion.
MK is an extremely difficult character to do anything about. His whole moveset is basically designed to be good. He has fast, disjointed moves, his movement is fast (except horizontal air speed), his recovery is solid, his moves combo, and he can chase people offstage extremely well to gimp them. The problem is that these are attributes that define MK. We took away his outright kill power. We took away his ability to dominate matchups with a single move (although he can arguably do the same now with about three... it's an improvement, right?), which as a result even hurt his recovery somewhat. But he's still metaknight, which means he still has good speed, disjointed and fast moves, gimp power, and a good recovery. There isn't a lot more we can do without making MK... no longer MK. Now, what we can do is raise the angle on some of his moves (ie. dthrow) to prevent them from setting up for edgeguards as easily. I suggested giving his dthrow a 65 degree angle, for example, which would hopefully prevent him from techchasing, comboing, or gimping from it. The upB sweetspot could also be given a less nasty angle to prevent gimps off of uair combos. There are things we can do, but they're limited, and MK is simply naturally too good of a character to really rebuild in the way we did to marth. We've been trying to force him to focus on gimps to keep him specialized, but he's still simply too good even with that specialization to try to rebuild him from here. The dthrow and upB changes are some of the last things we can do that will nerf what makes him a problem character, although this almost encourages further three move spam. MK is a touchy subject for obvious reasons, so we'd rather see counters evolve naturally, but if it becomes necessary, we will force counters by further nerfing him.
---
And now for a misunderstanding about quarter-circle and double-stick DI that never actually got resolved earlier in the thread. Note that this is mostly based on melee knowledge and may not be entirely accurate in brawl, due to the way it handles the cstick differently.
This is where double-stick DI comes in. DSDI is using the cstick to SDI in one direction while performing normal DI with the control stick. The control stick controls regular DI, while the cstick will control both SDI and ASDI, allowing you to obtain the best possible survival DI, where you rarely want to SDI or ASDI in the same direction you want to DI in.
Note that in melee, QCDI does work on the cstick, which is probably where some of this confusion came from, but the two terms are completely separate things. Since brawl forces you to set the cstick back to neutral before it will read another input, QCDI does not work on the cstick in brawl, however DSDI does.
---
And I see people were talking about fox's JC shine while I was making my post.
In melee, fox could JC his shine and then shine again the frame he leaves the ground, which will end up grounding him. He is not actually canceling his jump with the new shine (unlike JC grabs and JC usmashes), since the jump's start frames would have already ended by that point. In brawl+, this is currently believed to be impossible due to the "dead frame" on jumps, although if someone could prove this wrong it would certainly be interesting.
---
First off, lucas zair.
Stingers made a great post on this which seemed to get largely ignored in favour of the fanboys with little to no real argument. I think he brings up some valid points, and the move can be worked as a way to regain momentum/space in a match without breaking it. Giving it low damage, a low angle, and fairly consistent kb would turn it into a techchase starter, which as people mentioned... lucas already has several of those. The difference is that zair would trade damage for range. He would have to work harder for damage when using zair, getting only 3-4% on hit, as opposed to something more like 10 or 11% with other options. You can get away with just putting a foe in a compromised position with higher damage moves, even if you don't get any direct followups, but with zair, he'll really need to predict right to get any real reward from landing it, even though the move would be easier to land than many of his other options due to its range. It will not suddenly make him a great character, but instead give him a way to gain some footing in a match, where he still has to predict correctly after landing one.
I'd also like to note that I'm not a big fan of the idea of adding moves to the game, but I think lucas's zair is acceptable. Largely because the move is - for all practical purposes - already programmed. The input for lucas's zair results in an established animation playing, the input is not a taunt, the effect of the input is not movement oriented, and the effect of the input does not switch you to a different character. In fact, it is the only non-movement and non-taunt animation in the game to not have a hitbox that does not also switch characters. Lucario's upB doesn't have a hitbox, but it's used for movement (not only recovering, but also for offense). Peach's downB doesn't technically have a hitbox, but it spawns an item that does have a hitbox. Independent pokemon's downBs don't have a hitbox, but they don't even have an animation to begin with; it's not that independent pokemon don't have a hitbox on their downB, it's that they don't have a downB... period, and if we were to give them a downB that would truly be adding a move in its most literal definition. This is the major difference, here. Lucas's zair already has an established animation. Yes, it's a substantial edit, but it is just that - an edit. It is not adding a move, but rather editing an already existing one. Since this is technically merely editing an existing move rather than adding a whole new one (again, the animation that plays as a result of this input is the same after the edit as it was before it), people trying to push for completely reinventing a move by giving it a new animation will have no precedent to justify their change. So I say... why not? Give it a try in a nightly. If it gets turned down, no harm done. If it gets accepted, also no harm done.
---
Next, there's the topic of kirby.
Cam made a great post on this, I think, which does help put things into perspective. I've largely been of the opinion that kirby is fine as he is ever since the fsmash nerf was put in. Perhaps a small nerf on bair, but other than that, I figured just let him be. This post made it a lot clearer what the nerf should actually be. A damage nerf would not wreck the move, and it would still be extremely important to kirby's playstyle. It would still kill well, it would still gimp, and it would still combo. It just wouldn't rack damage as fast while doing it. It would make the move less safe on shields, as well.
---
Buffer texture hack.
What can I say? It's awesome. It should definitely be made part of the official texture package, along with independent pokemon portraits.
---
Now, for the metaknight discussion.
MK is an extremely difficult character to do anything about. His whole moveset is basically designed to be good. He has fast, disjointed moves, his movement is fast (except horizontal air speed), his recovery is solid, his moves combo, and he can chase people offstage extremely well to gimp them. The problem is that these are attributes that define MK. We took away his outright kill power. We took away his ability to dominate matchups with a single move (although he can arguably do the same now with about three... it's an improvement, right?), which as a result even hurt his recovery somewhat. But he's still metaknight, which means he still has good speed, disjointed and fast moves, gimp power, and a good recovery. There isn't a lot more we can do without making MK... no longer MK. Now, what we can do is raise the angle on some of his moves (ie. dthrow) to prevent them from setting up for edgeguards as easily. I suggested giving his dthrow a 65 degree angle, for example, which would hopefully prevent him from techchasing, comboing, or gimping from it. The upB sweetspot could also be given a less nasty angle to prevent gimps off of uair combos. There are things we can do, but they're limited, and MK is simply naturally too good of a character to really rebuild in the way we did to marth. We've been trying to force him to focus on gimps to keep him specialized, but he's still simply too good even with that specialization to try to rebuild him from here. The dthrow and upB changes are some of the last things we can do that will nerf what makes him a problem character, although this almost encourages further three move spam. MK is a touchy subject for obvious reasons, so we'd rather see counters evolve naturally, but if it becomes necessary, we will force counters by further nerfing him.
---
And now for a misunderstanding about quarter-circle and double-stick DI that never actually got resolved earlier in the thread. Note that this is mostly based on melee knowledge and may not be entirely accurate in brawl, due to the way it handles the cstick differently.
You can SDI with either stick. I think what you are thinking about is double stick DI. Where you hold one direction on one stick for survival DI and you quarter circle the other one or w/e for SDI. One of them overrides it but can't remember which. JCaesar help me out.
Quarter-circle DI is performed by rotating the control stick in... a quarter circle... in order to obtain multiple SDIs in rapid succession when you're hit. You cannot SDI in the same direction on two consecutive frames (even if it was humanly possible to set the control stick back to neutral and then smash that same direction again in the matter of one frame, it would still be read as "holding" the stick in that position), however, a very slight change in the control stick positioning will be read as a new direction, allowing you to get three to five SDIs off of QCDI. This is mostly useful for escaping multihit moves or for ledgeteching, ensuring you get the maximum SDI possible. It's rare that you will use QCDI as a means of survival unless you're trying to force a tech, since it's rare that you would want to SDI in the same direction as you want to perform regular DI in.
This is where double-stick DI comes in. DSDI is using the cstick to SDI in one direction while performing normal DI with the control stick. The control stick controls regular DI, while the cstick will control both SDI and ASDI, allowing you to obtain the best possible survival DI, where you rarely want to SDI or ASDI in the same direction you want to DI in.
Note that in melee, QCDI does work on the cstick, which is probably where some of this confusion came from, but the two terms are completely separate things. Since brawl forces you to set the cstick back to neutral before it will read another input, QCDI does not work on the cstick in brawl, however DSDI does.
---
And I see people were talking about fox's JC shine while I was making my post.
In melee, fox could JC his shine and then shine again the frame he leaves the ground, which will end up grounding him. He is not actually canceling his jump with the new shine (unlike JC grabs and JC usmashes), since the jump's start frames would have already ended by that point. In brawl+, this is currently believed to be impossible due to the "dead frame" on jumps, although if someone could prove this wrong it would certainly be interesting.
Perfect Chaos
Smash Master
The thing is, with how the Shine JC is currently being implemented, Fox ALWAYS looks like he's grounded when in his shine (as in, his body's animation looks like he's doing the shine on the ground even when you do it in the air). But do the shine in the air and look at how he poses to see what I mean.
But it doesn't work the same in Melee. In Melee, if you shine while close enough to the ground, you'll shine with you on the ground. In Brawl's case, you simply fall a little bit to hit the ground when shining close to the ground. Trying to do the multi-shine like Perfect Control Melee, is kind of possible, but it's pointless, since you'll do it more rapidly just by shining over and over on the ground.
The Night Cat
Smash Cadet
Your probably right about it just being the animation but your wrong about repeatedly shining faster without JCing.
Edit: Explanation, even if it takes you the full shine animation to actually touch the ground after the third shine then you are still packing in more shines per full shine periods.
Edit: Explanation, even if it takes you the full shine animation to actually touch the ground after the third shine then you are still packing in more shines per full shine periods.
Perfect Chaos
Smash Master
Like, you can shine twice (thrice if you also use your double-jump and cancel that) more rapidly, but in the time that it takes you to land to the time that you can do a grounded shine again, it would possibly allow your opponent to escape.
Whereas if you just spam grounded shines, they won't have a long enough interval to escape.
Whereas if you just spam grounded shines, they won't have a long enough interval to escape.
The Night Cat
Smash Cadet
Well either way it's only going to work against a wall.
Edit: Actually now that I think about it, if the second shine is grounding like leaf green says the melee one did then this way is definetly faster if you can get your fingers to do it. (possibly 1-2 frame window to ground)
Edit: Actually now that I think about it, if the second shine is grounding like leaf green says the melee one did then this way is definetly faster if you can get your fingers to do it. (possibly 1-2 frame window to ground)
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
leaf, hate to nitpick you after that amazing post but...you can't SDI with the c-stick in melee.
Only the control stick can be used to SDI in melee. However ASDI can be done with either stick (and the c-stick OVERRIDES the control stick if both inputs are present). Double stick DI in melee is holding the c-stick in the direction you want to ASDI while holding the control stick in the direction you want to normal DI. It is most commonly used to force techs on grounded moves, by DIing the move away and down to get the most horizontal angle, while also ASDIing down to hit the ground (ASDI combines with the first frame of knockback, meaning that if the vertical distance you are sent on the first frame is greater than the distance you would be sent with ASDI, you will not colide with the ground and not be able to tech. DIing the move with the control stick is done to limit the vertical trajectory of the move as much as possible).
You sir, have just been 1uped
@about the jump cancel shine thing...try buffering the shine after your jump cancel (this gets around the dead frame problem, allowing you to shine 1 frame after you leave the ground) Then jump out of that shine. I think it may technically be possible to multishine, provided that you don't recieve extra lag when landing during a shine and also lose all your vertical momentum on the frame that you input the shine (some moves don't cancel momentum in 1 frame <_<) AND that you fall back to the ground 1-2 frames later.
Only the control stick can be used to SDI in melee. However ASDI can be done with either stick (and the c-stick OVERRIDES the control stick if both inputs are present). Double stick DI in melee is holding the c-stick in the direction you want to ASDI while holding the control stick in the direction you want to normal DI. It is most commonly used to force techs on grounded moves, by DIing the move away and down to get the most horizontal angle, while also ASDIing down to hit the ground (ASDI combines with the first frame of knockback, meaning that if the vertical distance you are sent on the first frame is greater than the distance you would be sent with ASDI, you will not colide with the ground and not be able to tech. DIing the move with the control stick is done to limit the vertical trajectory of the move as much as possible).
You sir, have just been 1uped
@about the jump cancel shine thing...try buffering the shine after your jump cancel (this gets around the dead frame problem, allowing you to shine 1 frame after you leave the ground) Then jump out of that shine. I think it may technically be possible to multishine, provided that you don't recieve extra lag when landing during a shine and also lose all your vertical momentum on the frame that you input the shine (some moves don't cancel momentum in 1 frame <_<) AND that you fall back to the ground 1-2 frames later.
The Night Cat
Smash Cadet
I'm not at home yet, but would the test I described in my first post prove whether the second shine acts as a grounded shine.
The test being that I attempt to double ground shine then JC the second shine and then jump again to see whether I get both my jumps restored after grounding the second shine.
The test being that I attempt to double ground shine then JC the second shine and then jump again to see whether I get both my jumps restored after grounding the second shine.
camelot
Smash Ace
Hey, small suggestion that has nothing to do with JC shine.
You should use PSA for Captain Falcon's n-air changes rather than the animation modifier. Not super important, but it keeps the animation looking smooth and doesn't mess up the sound effects.
You should use PSA for Captain Falcon's n-air changes rather than the animation modifier. Not super important, but it keeps the animation looking smooth and doesn't mess up the sound effects.
Magus420
Smash Master
^^ Already been done. It just didn't make it into the nightly in time.
timothyung
Smash Ace
A few of my suggestions:
- title screen to Brawl+
- Change the text in rules from "Handicap" to "Buffer"
- Change any instances of Brawl to Brawl+
- Include just one menu song replacement? I would suggest just this one or something like that because it's still the Brawl theme, yet the different style is enough to tell you "Hey, Brawl+ means business" Yeah, music is really a personal thing, but I don't think changing one theme would be a big deal, plus users can always switch it out. *shrug* I just think the idea of Brawl+ having its own theme would be cool.If this suggestion is ignored, I'll just continue using my own of course.
- I saw a Brawl+ strap loader image awhile back, would be cool if that was polished up a bit more, had the Brawlplus site URL on it, explain what Buffer is, the version number of the codes, etc.
Ideas thus far.
Unfortunately it seems these altogether increase the filesize beyond the original file size and thus File Patch gets screwed up.
Using SmashBox's Size Resizer doesn't seem to work. =/
Although I bet you can replace it drectly onto the ISO and it'll work lol.
Btw, replace the Donkey Kong Jungle Beat icon with the Super Smash Bros. Brawl one. <.<
Viet, SmashBox seems to have problem recompiling the stage part of the pac. Before when it recompiles the whole pac it froze at the SSS.
Do you think we should make a new thread for this?
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
What!?leaf, hate to nitpick you after that amazing post but...you can't SDI with the c-stick in melee.
Only the control stick can be used to SDI in melee. However ASDI can be done with either stick (and the c-stick OVERRIDES the control stick if both inputs are present). Double stick DI in melee is holding the c-stick in the direction you want to ASDI while holding the control stick in the direction you want to normal DI. It is most commonly used to force techs on grounded moves, by DIing the move away and down to get the most horizontal angle, while also ASDIing down to hit the ground (ASDI combines with the first frame of knockback, meaning that if the vertical distance you are sent on the first frame is greater than the distance you would be sent with ASDI, you will not colide with the ground and not be able to tech. DIing the move with the control stick is done to limit the vertical trajectory of the move as much as possible).
You sir, have just been 1uped
EVERYTHING I'VE EVER KNOWN IS A LIE!
...
I'll go... huddle over in the corner now ;_;
...
Remind me to kill whoever told me you could SDI with the cstick. K? Thanks.
Epic Kovumon
Smash Journeyman
I'm honestly disappointed in Ganondorf's new d-throw change.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
he doesn't have a dthrow change...did you download his pac?
oh the lower KBG...that helps with combo's, doesn't it?
oh the lower KBG...that helps with combo's, doesn't it?
Epic Kovumon
Smash Journeyman
It was a better combo starter before the change.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
no character was ever considered overpowered in melee. it is not brawl where the balance is ****. okay.
also "Screw that, I want fun speed activate!" needs to be on the title page of Brawl+
Skip2MaLoo
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,293
melee two point O
Please, no. That's possibly the worst slogan that I've ever heard.
5ive
Smash Champion
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Don't be dumb.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
also, I noticed toon link's down smash sends away instead of going into the second hit. I'm pretty sure I have his pac....lemme check.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lets get back to this
i think taking awy 2 jumps would be great, because:
one of the main problems with mk is that his options are extremely safe most of the time (has been described somewhere above). taking away 2 of his jumps would result in mknot being able to stay offstage all day and would also reduce the ability to aircamp. plus, it doesnt take away any options or combos (=mk wont be nerfed to extinction) it just makes stuff less e-z.
also, i'd like to suggest to make mushroomy kingdom 1 a viable stage (=slowing it down + higher ceiling) because it might be a legit counterpick against mk. he cant go offstage and has problems with star kos (u'll need to stay on the right side though in order to survive air camping/gimping - or u play a high mobility char).
one of the main problems with mk is that his options are extremely safe most of the time (has been described somewhere above). taking away 2 of his jumps would result in mknot being able to stay offstage all day and would also reduce the ability to aircamp. plus, it doesnt take away any options or combos (=mk wont be nerfed to extinction) it just makes stuff less e-z.
also, i'd like to suggest to make mushroomy kingdom 1 a viable stage (=slowing it down + higher ceiling) because it might be a legit counterpick against mk. he cant go offstage and has problems with star kos (u'll need to stay on the right side though in order to survive air camping/gimping - or u play a high mobility char).
Machiavelli.CF
Ivy of the West
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2008
- Messages
- 757
- Location
- Orange County, CA
- NNID
- Machiavelli.CF
- 3DS FC
- 3222-5675-4966
uhh taking away jumps seems waaaaayyy toooo mother****ing much of a nerf
maybe make them shorter
but taking away jumps is out of the question
we'd need alot more than that
i highly doubt it
i dont see why mk would lose there more than other stages
bull ****
air camping? wtf...i dont get it
How the ****ing **** would sitting right next to the boundry of a stage, prevent you from dying
that would kill the purpose of hte game entirely
and...
gimping......this implies Gap Stage Gap
it does not refer to MK 1 at all
wouldnt those slow characters with good grabs (bowser?) do really well here to jsut hurl ppl offstage?
taking away his jumps seems kinda appropriate, since he's the only char with 5 jumps plus glide.
@mushroomy kingdom: a good idea would also be to move the blastzones. i think someone already came up with this. iirc, the idea was to icrease the left blast zone.
and besides the rather di-able shuttle loop after upair, mk cant do anything in order to kill off the top.
btw, who are u to say that anything is out of the question?
also, get ur smash knowledge together. gimping doesnt need to be offstage (it is most of the time though). gimp=kill at low percent
@mushroomy kingdom: a good idea would also be to move the blastzones. i think someone already came up with this. iirc, the idea was to icrease the left blast zone.
and besides the rather di-able shuttle loop after upair, mk cant do anything in order to kill off the top.
btw, who are u to say that anything is out of the question?
also, get ur smash knowledge together. gimping doesnt need to be offstage (it is most of the time though). gimp=kill at low percent
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