Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[timothyung]

Kirby's bair hitbox size is always that big

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well get over it then. people dealt with it in vbrawl, and in brawl+. There's no need to change something that's punishable but good because you aren't good enough to know how to punish.


key word: punishable.

 

[grim mouser]

Are there tourney results confirming that Kirby is top 5/best character? Is b-air the move that is used the vast majority of the time?

I'm not disputing the argument for a nerf, but I think it's a good idea to have good reasons to do so.

 

[Mattnumbers]

well get over it then. people dealt with it in vbrawl, and in brawl+. There's no need to change something just because it's really good and can be used against you.

This post is ridiculously stupid.


People dealt with chaingrabs and infinites and overpowered characters in vBrawl, there's no reason to change something just because it's really good and can be used against you.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

you took my post out of context. infinite chaingrabs weren't punishable. kirby's bair is.



In vBrawl, it could be argued that METAKNIGHT wasn't punishable.

 

[Mattnumbers]

You still pretty much posted that just because something is broken doesn't mean you should fix it, which I don't agree with.

(by the way I don't mean broken in gaming lingo I mean broken as in the phrase "If it isn't broken don't fix it") Which I also don't completely agree with actually. If something can be improved it should be, that's how society advances.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If something is broken (doesn't work correctly), then you should fix it. but improving it so much that is becomes broken (cheap) is just biased and reeks of favoritism.

and kirby's bair isn't broken (cheap). It's just good. INFINITE CHAINGRABS are broken. those chaingrabs weren't punishable, they could put 60% on you in a heartbeat, and a lot of times they comboed into killing moves. Kirby's bair can't do all that, no matter what you say.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If something is broken (doesn't work correctly), then you should fix it. but improving it so much that is becomes broken (cheap) is just biased and reeks of favoritism.

and kirby's bair isn't broken (cheap). It's just good. INFINITE CHAINGRABS are broken. those chaingrabs weren't punishable, they could put 60% on you in a heartbeat, and a lot of times they comboed into killing moves. Kirby's bair can't do all that, no matter what you say.

First of all, I meant "better" as in better for game balance, not as in a move actually becoming better.

Secondly, Kirby's bair is pretty **** good, and I think you underestimate it.
Something doesn't have to be as bad as an Infinite to require fixing.

 

[comboking]

Your right Ike's Forward Smash should be speed up.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Your right Ike's Forward Smash should be speed up.

Yeah, it should be fast as peach's first jab, and have the power of warlock punch. Maybe we can give it no hitlag and instantly break shields. And you can't SDI it. at all. :D Ooh ooh and ice effect as well. And i should have the range of hyrule temple. and make it so he's invincible on all of it.


@Matt: Maybe kirby's bair should be toned down a little bit. But I've heard discussions that doing anything major to it would ruin it. :|

 

[comboking]

K that kinda over does it. LOL

 

[PKNintendo]

Ike's Ftilt>Fsmash.

What's the point of buffing a move you'll never use?
Maybe they could make it a damage racker?

But I digress. When is the next B+ Tournament?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

You guys knew I was kidding, right?

 

[comboking]

I was kidding too. And yeah I noticed

 

[TLMSheikant]

Kirby's bair overshadows his other moves. Safe, can kill, spammable, long lasting hitbox that comes out in frame 8...I think it should be toned down. Maybe less damage or something. :/

 

[Revven]

So first off, Shuttle Loop still kills. Much too early.

This first sentence, is the only one I am quoting, and shows exactly what I'm thinking in my mind. Here's where you're wrong, even before the Shuttle Loop nerf, in Brawl when I DI the **** thing I live at 150% as is! Now WITH the nerf, it won't kill until well 30% later depending on weight and DI. The move got hit really hard, you still think that's not good enough? Wow... you must have some really bad DI to be whining about Shuttle Loop when its the least of his fearsome moves now as far as KOing goes.

And to prove that you don't die until 20-30% later now when you DI Shuttle Loop, here's VIDEO proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXsTir2_hpI

Skip to 1:22, G&W gets hit by Shuttle Loop at 161% and DIs it. You can tell that he DI'd it and had he been at the other edge of FD he would've lived. G&W would've also died much faster without the nerf and it's ****ing G&W who is LIGHTER than Kirby! So WTF.

I already brought up Nair with everyone in the backroom, didn't seem to really want to nerf its damage, but its the sweetspot you have to hit with in order to get that damage. MK also practically throws his hurtbox at you when he does it. It's a dumb move, sure, but it doesn't deserve any more nerfing than his Fair does. Also, Fair is the only one with those extra outside hitboxes, I asked shanus about it a long time ago (doing the same treatment to his other moves), his Fair is the only one with those hitboxes on the outside like that.

Tornado cannot be as abused at all. M2K said a long time ago all we had to do to it was reduce its damage, which essentially tells me that we hit that move hard as well. I don't see a lot of MKs in + use it as much as he does in Brawl so that must mean it's quite unsafe unless you're a heavy like DK or MK uses it to punish a terribly laggy move. Anyone can simply shield the dumb thing and punish MK for it now, it got hit hard, it can't even be used for recovery now at all.

Ganondorf Down B reset still making you cry? Too bad, he needs it, he would die if he didn't have it. I've never once understood you at all MK26. I understand the hitlag stuff with you (because you can't apparently DI or SDI worth **** otherwise, you wouldn't be complaining about MK's Shuttle Loop). But, that very first sentence shows me exactly how much you know about MK. You can't seem to handle him, at all. If you could, you'd be able to see SL coming after all the Uair juggles and DI it accordingly and live at about 170%.

Oh but wait, you're Kirby, so of course you will die earlier than Mario, DK, Snake, or Fox! But that's a weakness, so you want us to nerf Shuttle Loop so Kirby can survive around those %s too, huh? That's dumb.

I'm sorry you're unsatisfied with what other characters have gotten, but there are clear reasons for them. I don't think I should have to explain to you why Yoshi or Ganondorf need the special resets... but apparently, you don't understand, and guess why that is? Because you don't main them or play them at all, you play KIRBY so of course you wouldn't understand.

Typical complaining is typical.

 

[Deleted member]

Umm, the picture on the right says when it was uploaded. That bair was not hitbox modded by PSA or any other code. That's official code set. It's stupid ****.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

JUST GET OVER KIRBY'S BAIR. GOD *****ING ******** ITS WASTING SPACE IN THIS THREAD.


Seriously. it might need to be toned down a little bit, but jesus! you guys are going overboard with the complaining!


AND I ALREADY KNOW THAT DELORTED

 

[Alphatron]

@Matt: Maybe kirby's bair should be toned down a little bit. But I've heard discussions that doing anything major to it would ruin it. :|

Please don't theorycraft on stuff like this. Before brawl+ ever came out, I would have stated that removing chaingrabs would have made the Ice climbers suck bad.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Thank you, Alphatron. You actually corrected me nicely without being a ***** to me. Thanks.


But I actually do agree that it might need to be toned down.

 

[Strong Badam]

ITT: scrubs try to change the game instead of finding counters to strategies and getting better.

 

[timothyung]

ITT: scrubs try to change the game instead of finding counters to strategies and getting better.

That's why we need a gold version... or we should just think of possible workarounds before complaining about something

BTW, because it seems to be missed by some of you, I'll post this again:

Oh hi guys SmashBox is amazing. Let's see...
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nrzowdynmm2
common5.pac with Handicap icon replaced with

. Tested, everything is working fine!
If you want to use CSPs, just replace them with SmashBox or put this pac in the needed files folder in CUPASH before running step 2. Remember to rename it before using

EDIT:
Rename to common5.pac and put into private>wii>app>rsbe>pf>system to use in Brawl.

 

[The Cape]

Tim, I grabbed that and it looks great. Gonna push to put it in the "Official teams textures"

Be nice to have some official textured stuff for sex appeal.

Good work.

 

[Alphatron]

ITT: scrubs try to change the game instead of finding counters to strategies and getting better.

On the subject of Lucas "needing" a zair, I agree with that. Things don't seem SO bad for many characters now that we require anymore buffs without playing and seeing how things play out.

This isn't the case for characters who obviously have moves that are TOO good though.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

this build has only been out for 3 days. We need to test things out a little more. D:

 

[KOkingpin]

I dunno. I see people talking about the size of Kirby's b-air. If you dont change Snake's U-Tilt or Lucario's F-air (which beats out Dedede's D-air mind you) then why would you change that.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

timothyung, im gonna try that out. NOW. Cuz that looks awesome

 

[Strong Badam]

how about we get an official 5.0 for tournaments and then let that be tested in tournaments for a few months, and then maybe see if we want to buff/nerf ****.

 

[JCaesar]

ITT: scrubs try to change the game instead of finding counters to strategies and getting better.

That's true to a point but it doesn't apply to everything, otherwise you might as well go back to playing vBrawl.

When something stands out as being "too good" and, more importantly, overcentralizes a character's game, that is an acceptable thing to nerf imo. Hence Sheik's recent fair nerf, which I may not have personally supported but I understand the reasoning behind it and I'm at least willing to give it a try.

Kirby's bair is even more central to Kirby's game than Sheik's fair was to hers so I believe it's tweak-worthy.

Oh hi guys SmashBox is amazing. Let's see...
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?nrzowdynmm2
common5.pac with Handicap icon replaced with

. Tested, everything is working fine!
If you want to use CSPs, just replace them with SmashBox or put this pac in the needed files folder in CUPASH before running step 2. Remember to rename it before using

EDIT:
Rename to common5.pac and put into private>wii>app>rsbe>pf>system to use in Brawl.

I really like this. If it could be combined with Jiang's individual pogey character portaits, I think this should be an official Brawl+ texture.

 

[Plum]

I don't think people should even address Kirby and his Bair being too good and then completely ignore the practically same attack on DDD.

Each comes out on frame 6, both have above average range, great priority, good GTFO/WoP/gimp/KO moves. The only real difference is one being on DDD.

"Yeah, but DDD isn't as good as Kirby."

Show me any actual proof of that first. DDD's only weakness is being a fatty. He has more overall range than Kirby, stupidly good grab, stupidly good low % grab combos (legit stuff like Uthrow, Nair, Nair/Fair piling on more than 40%), more weight allowing him to live to higher percents, a projectile, amazing gimp game, early KO power, and etc.

So why do people complain about Kirby when DDD is running around? He reliably combos even at high %'s, kills reliably, gimps well, has more range, more power, probably more useful grab options and a stupid good grab to go along with it. Being hurt by combos can't be too detrimental when characters like Fox, Falco, and Marth do so well especially when DDD actually has a great recovery compared to them.

Just putting that out there :V

 

[PKNintendo]

This first sentence, is the only one I am quoting, and shows exactly what I'm thinking in my mind. Here's where you're wrong, even before the Shuttle Loop nerf, in Brawl when I DI the **** thing I live at 150% as is! Now WITH the nerf, it won't kill until well 30% later depending on weight and DI. The move got hit really hard, you still think that's not good enough? Wow... you must have some really bad DI to be whining about Shuttle Loop when its the least of his fearsome moves now as far as KOing goes.

And to prove that you don't die until 20-30% later now when you DI Shuttle Loop, here's VIDEO proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXsTir2_hpI

Skip to 1:22, G&W gets hit by Shuttle Loop at 161% and DIs it. You can tell that he DI'd it and had he been at the other edge of FD he would've lived. G&W would've also died much faster without the nerf and it's ****ing G&W who is LIGHTER than Kirby! So WTF.

I already brought up Nair with everyone in the backroom, didn't seem to really want to nerf its damage, but its the sweetspot you have to hit with in order to get that damage. MK also practically throws his hurtbox at you when he does it. It's a dumb move, sure, but it doesn't deserve any more nerfing than his Fair does. Also, Fair is the only one with those extra outside hitboxes, I asked shanus about it a long time ago (doing the same treatment to his other moves), his Fair is the only one with those hitboxes on the outside like that.

Tornado cannot be as abused at all. M2K said a long time ago all we had to do to it was reduce its damage, which essentially tells me that we hit that move hard as well. I don't see a lot of MKs in + use it as much as he does in Brawl so that must mean it's quite unsafe unless you're a heavy like DK or MK uses it to punish a terribly laggy move. Anyone can simply shield the dumb thing and punish MK for it now, it got hit hard, it can't even be used for recovery now at all.

Ganondorf Down B reset still making you cry? Too bad, he needs it, he would die if he didn't have it. I've never once understood you at all MK26. I understand the hitlag stuff with you (because you can't apparently DI or SDI worth **** otherwise, you wouldn't be complaining about MK's Shuttle Loop). But, that very first sentence shows me exactly how much you know about MK. You can't seem to handle him, at all. If you could, you'd be able to see SL coming after all the Uair juggles and DI it accordingly and live at about 170%.

Oh but wait, you're Kirby, so of course you will die earlier than Mario, DK, Snake, or Fox! But that's a weakness, so you want us to nerf Shuttle Loop so Kirby can survive around those %s too, huh? That's dumb.

I'm sorry you're unsatisfied with what other characters have gotten, but there are clear reasons for them. I don't think I should have to explain to you why Yoshi or Ganondorf need the special resets... but apparently, you don't understand, and guess why that is? Because you don't main them or play them at all, you play KIRBY so of course you wouldn't understand.

Typical complaining is typical.

Yup, MK26 was raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaped here.


Great post as usually.

 

[timothyung]

Anyone got the JP common5.pac? I got something like this

, and I don't bother ripping the whole ISO from my JP disc

 

[JCaesar]

I don't think people should even address Kirby and his Bair being too good and then completely ignore the practically same attack on DDD.

Each comes out on frame 6, both have above average range, great priority, good GTFO/WoP/gimp/KO moves. The only real difference is one being on DDD.

"Yeah, but DDD isn't as good as Kirby."

Show me any actual proof of that first. DDD's only weakness is being a fatty. He has more overall range than Kirby, stupidly good grab, stupidly good low % grab combos (legit stuff like Uthrow, Nair, Nair/Fair piling on more than 40%), more weight allowing him to live to higher percents, a projectile, amazing gimp game, early KO power, and etc.

So why do people complain about Kirby when DDD is running around? He reliably combos even at high %'s, kills reliably, gimps well, has more range, more power, probably more useful grab options and a stupid good grab to go along with it. Being hurt by combos can't be too detrimental when characters like Fox, Falco, and Marth do so well especially when DDD actually has a great recovery compared to them.

Just putting that out there :V

Do about a dozen tourney results of Kirbies (sp?) consistently outplacing DDDs count as proof? *doesn't feel like digging them up atm*

Or how about because Kirby has much better aerial control and mobility than DDD and is an overall better character?

That said, I do agree that DDD is massively underrated. But Kirby's bair > DDD's bair, maybe not statistically but in actual usage.

 

[timothyung]

cookiemonster said in another thread that he want everything in Brawl "plussified".
Yeah so we should discuss what we can do.

Buffer - done
Mark neutral, cp, and banned stages with a green, yellow and red border respectively?
title screen
anymore suggestions?

 

[shanus]

Actually CSPs for the official texture package would be <3

 

[Blank Mauser]

Just because Kirby can crouch a few moves doesn't make the matchup hard. ZSS will always have to commit to her grabs anyways. Dtilt will pluck Kirby off the ground into amazing combos and her side-B can keep him away and wreck his approaches. Shield or bait his Bair and come in with Uair or side-B for a great punisher. Its not totally skewed but I definitely feel ZSS has the advantage here.

I feel once people get used to Kirby he won't be placing as high. We'll see him often, probably placing decently, but he won't be winning or dominating. I'd put plenty of characters above him.

I've talked to tons of great Kirby mains about it, and the thing they all say is that Kirby might be easy to wreck with at first, but once people figure him out, bait him instead, or camp him to all heck then he's really not that much a threat. In high level play, against high tiers, Kirby runs into plenty of bad matchups and he deals poorly with them compared to others. His air mobility isn't even that great, and he's still floaty and lacks momentum. With his range issues and lack of approaches there are much more appealing choices to use against high tiers. People say "Oh Kirby won't throw moves in high level play and will space with the tip of his Bair." But in high level play people won't be sitting there at the tip of Kirby's Bair range and whiffing moves only to get Fsmashed either.

If you look at his bad matchups from vBrawl(One of them being ROB JCaeser), is there any char you would say he actually does better against now? Everyone has gotten better and I'd say hes got even more bad matchups with the likes of Sheik, Pikachu, Squirtle and others. The only one I'd say has been slightly alleviated is Metaknight, but Kirby has always had more problems with other chars over Metaknight.

 

[GHNeko]

cookiemonster said in another thread that he want everything in Brawl "plussified".
Yeah so we should discuss what we can do.

Buffer - done
Mark neutral, cp, and banned stages with a green, yellow and red border respectively?
title screen
anymore suggestions?

That would be cool and all, but you'd have to wait for an offical stage list. Also, different regions would have different stage lists.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Few things about kirby:

Currently, F-smash(with the nerfs) kills mario with no DI at 115% while B-air (sweetspotted) kills at 131% with no DI from the middle of the stage. Meaning that it kills 16% later then F-smash.

@Cape-A few pages back (somewhere, cant find it) i believe you said that b-air should kill 25% later then an UN-nerfed fsmash. If that's the case then the move is already set up to do so. I dont want to remove the nerfs to test ( dont know how) but i do know the nerfs hurt the kill percentage of F-smash by atleast 9% if not close to doing so.

It should also be noted that:

• 
  kirby's new n-air kills at the exact same percent as his b-air (131).

• From the very edge of FD if DI'd correctly you can live through a b-air at 121%.

• Ness's b-air kills at 113% from the middle of FD with no DI(better then kirbys fsmash) and has just a tad bit less range. Where kirby's b-air hits at the edge of the first diamond, Ness's hits just inside of the diamond's edge. (Note: not saying Ness should be nerfed)

Kirby is by no means broken:

Regarding matchups: I disagree with the statement that he ***** ZSS. I actually find ZSS to be a good counterpick against kirby, much like she was in vbrawl (my friend's ZSS beats my kirby more consistently then any of his other characters). Marth is still very very good against kirby. Charizard is a good counter, as well as squirtle. Wario holds his own as well and Luigi has the advantage. Sheik doesnt do bad against kirby, it's fairly even. Though some may disagree, i still find Zelda to be a hard matchup for kirby as well.

Grab combos: From what i can tell. Most characters can get away with about 38% everytime from the cookie cutter kirby grab combo if it is DI'd properly. Several characters can even get away with 30% and some less then that. If you have just 5% (sometimes even less) it destroys the whole combo because neither u-air or f-fair will connect so that you can pull off the next grab.

In conclusion:
Kirby in my opinion is a top 10 character. He runs very hot and cold. He can destroy some while having some major problems with other characters. His moveset is very solid, especially with the f-smash nerf. His b-air is his staple go-to move and any nerf should be carefully looked into before being applied.


With all that said, I dont believe anything should happen to his b-air (or anything else for that matter) but if the WBR feels that b-air should receive a slight nerf then we should either

1. Very, very slightly reduce b-air's hitbox range making it hit on the very inside of FD's first diamond. Close to where Ness's connects.

2. Reduce it's damage output and adjust KB accordingly. Kirby's b-air currently does 12% sweetspotted. I would like to see this at about 10% if changed. While the non-sweetspotted, currently 9% can be reduced to 7%

 

[PKNintendo]

cookiemonster said in another thread that he want everything in Brawl "plussified".
Yeah so we should discuss what we can do.

Buffer - done
Mark neutral, cp, and banned stages with a green, yellow and red border respectively?
title screen
anymore suggestions?

I'd love the marking of the stages.
You can make the title screen say B+ but that's a nice bonus.

 

[FSLink]

cookiemonster said in another thread that he want everything in Brawl "plussified".
Yeah so we should discuss what we can do.

Buffer - done
Mark neutral, cp, and banned stages with a green, yellow and red border respectively?
title screen
anymore suggestions?

A few of my suggestions:
- title screen to Brawl+
- Change the text in rules from "Handicap" to "Buffer"
- Change any instances of Brawl to Brawl+
- Include just one menu song replacement? I would suggest just this one or something like that because it's still the Brawl theme, yet the different style is enough to tell you "Hey, Brawl+ means business" Yeah, music is really a personal thing, but I don't think changing one theme would be a big deal, plus users can always switch it out. *shrug* I just think the idea of Brawl+ having its own theme would be cool. If this suggestion is ignored, I'll just continue using my own of course.
- I saw a Brawl+ strap loader image awhile back, would be cool if that was polished up a bit more, had the Brawlplus site URL on it, explain what Buffer is, the version number of the codes, etc.