Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[goodoldganon]

ITT: Idealists who have no idea how to balance a video game.

Get over it. Sometimes you are gonna main a low tier character. Even now the entire cast is relatively close. Yes low tier and top tier has a decent gap, but so what. Learn to play your character. If you can't beat so and so, pick up a counter. Brawl + isn't some super hard game to play. We will never have a metagame if people want to keep rearranging the cast's tier lists.

If down the road MK is seen to be rolling tournaments we'll address that, but even when I and other WBR members see him as the best character, we admit he has some pretty tough matchups, and at least a straight counter or two.

 

[GHNeko]

ITT: Idealists who have no idea how to balance a video game.

Get over it. Sometimes you are gonna main a low tier character. Even now the entire cast is relatively close. Yes low tier and top tier has a decent gap, but so what. Learn to play your character. If you can't beat so and so, pick up a counter. Brawl + isn't some super hard game to play. We will never have a metagame if people want to keep rearranging the cast's tier lists.

I keep telling people to pick up secondaries. They're going to need it.

 

[KOkingpin]

ITT: Idealists who have no idea how to balance a video game.

Get over it. Sometimes you are gonna main a low tier character. Even now the entire cast is relatively close. Yes low tier and top tier has a decent gap, but so what. Learn to play your character. If you can't beat so and so, pick up a counter. Brawl + isn't some super hard game to play. We will never have a metagame if people want to keep rearranging the cast's tier lists.

i completely agree with this. Eventually B+ will be finalized. Then we will all have to deal with it as it is. I feel like its getting really close to being As balanced as it can get. But thats just me.

 

[stingers]

You're not good with phrases are you. :X

If something can be done to balance the game/make it "deeper" (oh god) then do it. No reason to restrict yourself, when you've already changed so much.

You can't just say "Well we have to stop somewhere!" when you've already changed to your heart's content. You'll stop when you can't do anything else. (Note: That's what Sky's the Limit means.)

 

[dabridge]

I would just like to take the time to say something that we really don't see at all from all of the Workshop regulars.

Thank you so much for this project, what it has done for us in the Smash community, the hacking community, and for the hours of fun this game has given me since I first picked up Brawl+.

I've been following Brawl+ since the Melee airdodge code first came out. I was here when Smashboards created the Workshop just for us, and I'm still here and faithful. Now I'm not going to look through the about 750 posts of mine, but I've probably only said thank you once; for all I know I never said thank you. Quite frankly, when I realize this it kind of disgusts me. I feel horrible for how much we have taken for granted.

We see so much talk about buffs and nerfs to every sort of character that we forget the point of Brawl+. Viability is not being great, and being able to beat characters that can abuse your natural weaknesses. Viability is being able to use a character in a tournament setting if enough effort is put into that character. Just because your character has poor range and characters like Marth, MK and G&W can abuse the lack of range doesn't mean the character needs nerfs or buffs, especially when your character performs very well once they find an opening. (yeah I do have a specific character in mind there) Maybe you would be better off with a secondary like Snake who has long range, and amazing defenses against those types of characters. Tiers will always exist no matter what. Just accept the fact that you may be stuck with a lower end character, and know that other characters may have an easier time than you. It's just a fact of fighting games. At the very least, give matchups a time to develop before going crazy about your character needing anything.

Let's look at this thread alone. Over 550 pages, and almost 8300 posts. Again, I'm not going to bother looking through so much content, but most of it is probably fairly similar comments. By that I mean stuff like "The WBR is ******** for these changes! I don't realize this is all for test purposes, and instead of posting constructive criticism I will just ***** and moan about it. Why the hell would they even put this in here? These changes have not been thought out in the least bit! I'm not going to give the change any time to settle in, nor am I going to learn how to play with it. Change is bad, I'm right, so change it now. Character X needs buffs! Character Y needs nerfs! Oh, and by the way, once you do something to Character X and Character Y I will just ***** and moan about those changes too!"

Maybe I got a little off topic from what I really wanted to say (okay, not maybe... I did) so I'm going to just get back to that. To everyone working behind the scenes to make Brawl+ the best project it can be, I give you my sincerest thanks.

The coders who made the project possible in the first place, Phantom Wings, Spunit, Almas, Paprika Killer, Y.S, and anyone that may have slipped my mind: without all of your combined drive to see how far hacking Brawl could reach we wouldn't be here today. Everything from the hitstun codes, character specific changes, default settings, move modifiers, file replacement, etc. have driven this game to be by far the most hacked console game out there. That's not a small achievement by any standard.

The WBR who actually took the time to learn how these codes work, and put their free time into trying to please a stubborn community: many, many thanks. A lot of us here sit and complain about changes, and how things should be done, codes that should be made and so on and so forth. I'm sure most of those people don't realize that it isn't so easy. You guys have to sit down and find move data, then find the perfect values for the moves. I know myself that if I sat down with the codes that I would be lost. I can change the KB angle of a move, maybe the damage it does, if I really wanted to challenge myself I could do simple frame data but nothing on the scale those in the WBR had to do. It's one of those things where you have to say "okay, do it yourself if you know better" to see where the WBR is coming from. They have a big number of people to please, and they have to deal with a whole lot of crap from the very people they try to appease. Put yourself in their shoes before you *****, and imagine the stress we put them under.

I have had so much fun playing this game, and it is all thanks to the WBR and their work with the Plussery. Everyone in the WBR and the coders who gave us the tools to make this game deserves a huge pat on the back, because they outdid themselves. We may not agree with every decision the WBR makes, but I know we can be more civilized about our criticism. They certainly have earned the right to constructive criticism instead of the rather harsh tone many of us give.

This.

This x 10

I don't know where to start, honestly. I actually intended on writting a post similar to this one, because I never really thanked the WBR for Brawl+ while it's probably the video game I've played the most since I got it. So far, I'm amazed at how balanced this game feels, with practically no tournament data to use to determenine who's best/worst. All the WBR gets is complaints from players bawwing about their nerfed/underused characters, and it's just sad, really.

I've been playing Brawl+ since February, and I haven't complained once. Every little change I've seen is for character balance, which some people seem to be forgetting. Stop complaining and deal with it. Stop asking for buffs and nerfs, and go play the game. Learn how to deal with your character's weaknesses (ahem, Lucas players with their silly little zair) and abuse their advantages. You have a whole cast to deal with, unlike Melee/vBrawl where you had to practice with the top tiers. The time you're all using on complaining could be used on making new strategies and showing that your character is no longer trash.

 

[GHNeko]

You're not good with phrases are you. :X

If something can be done to balance the game/make it "deeper" (oh god) then do it. No reason to restrict yourself, when you've already changed so much.

You can't just say "Well we have to stop somewhere!" when you've already changed to your heart's content. You'll stop when you can't do anything else. (Note: That's what Sky's the Limit means.)

I know what the phrase means.

I still stand by my statement that there is ALWAYS a limit. No matter what. You can always change too much.

"Too much of anything is always a bad thing."

This applies to change. No ands/ifs/buts about it. :/

Also, "No reason to restrict yourself, when you've already changes so much" == Slippery Slope.

 

[Yingyay]

I kinda think the brawl+ editors (since last time I said coders people got offended) need to think about a gold version sooner. Cuz characters in the future, if this goes on will receive buffs and nerfs they dont really need. And I know everyone who's posted in this thread more than 20 times appreciates the job shanus and CO. has done to bring us Brawl+. Else nobody would be here complaining. (like me)

 

[stingers]

"Since you nerfed MK's Tornado, He will now lose all his matchups and become bottom tier." = Slippery Slope

ie. Making a huge leap in logic from a loosely related point.

"Since you've already changed a lot, there's no reason not to change more." isn't Slippery Slope.

I'm not sure why I'm debating Fallacies with you but I am. @.@

The limit is when it makes no sense to change anything else. That's the only thing that can be done for an optimal game.

It'll never be optimal, but you should try to get as close as you can, which means changing anything necessary.

 

[GHNeko]

I'd rather go Release Candidate before Gold. <_>

Release candidate
The term release candidate (RC) refers to a version with potential to be a final product, ready to release unless fatal bugs emerge. In this stage of product stabilization (read QA cycle), all product features have been designed, coded and tested through one or more Beta cycles with no known showstopper-class bug.
During the 1990s, Apple Inc. used the term "golden master" for its release candidates, and the final golden master was the general availability release. Other terms include gamma (and occasionally also delta, and perhaps other Greek letters) for versions that are substantially complete, but still under test, and omega or zenith for final testing of versions that are believed to be bug-free, and may go into production at any time. (gamma, delta, and omega are, respectively, the third, fourth, and last letters of the Greek alphabet.) Some users disparagingly refer to release candidates and even final "point oh" releases as "gamma test" software, suggesting that the developer has chosen to use its customers to test software that is not truly ready for general release. Often beta testers, if privately selected, will be billed for using the release candidate as though it were a finished product.
A release is called code complete when the development team agrees that no entirely new source code will be added to this release. There may still be source code changes to fix defects. There may still be changes to documentation and data files, and to the code for test cases or utilities. New code may be added in a future release.

:V

EDIT: Oh my god..

"Since you nerfed MK's Tornado, He will now lose all his matchups and become bottom tier." = Slippery Slope

ie. Making a huge leap in logic from a loosely related point.

"Since you've already changed a lot, there's no reason not to change more." isn't Slippery Slope.

I'm not sure why I'm debating Fallacies with you but I am. @.@

The limit is when it makes no sense to change anything else. That's the only thing that can be done for an optimal game.

It'll never be optimal, but you should try to get as close as you can, which means changing anything necessary.

"Since you've already changed a lot, there's no reason not to change more." pretty much means to change more because you've changed alot, which means alot more changes into etc etc.

That's like saying, "Since you've already killed alot, there's no reason not to kill more."

Just because we've changed alot doesn't mean we shouldn't set limits. It means we should be weary of our changes and be sure we dont change too much.

 

[Yingyay]

I'd rather go Release Candidate before Gold. <_>



:V

In a sense....thats a gold version except bug-testing. so..........yeah

 

[GHNeko]

In a sense....thats a gold version except bug-testing. so..........yeah

But it's not Gold is it. <3

 

[stingers]

That's like saying, "Since you've already killed alot, there's no reason not to kill more."

Oh please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

Listen, when you say things like "Just because we've changed alot doesn't mean we shouldn't set limits. It means we should be weary of our changes and be sure we dont change too much.", it's like you're purposefully trying to limit the growth of the game. I understand you don't want the changes to get out of control, but that's what the Back Room is there for. To control such things. Do whatever is necessary, and nothing more. That's the way you'll create the best game possible.

 

[GHNeko]

It's pretty much the same thing. All I did was change a word around. From change to kill. They work the same way based on the perspective they're being used.

I'm not trying to limit the growth of the game, I'm trying to keep changes from happening that are going to far, when the desired result can be obtained through another fashion.

Certain things go to far. Certain changes shouldn't happen. I am trying to keep changes from happening because they go under the "too far" category. They become something that isn't necessary. They move towards and past the border of "too extreme".

That's why we've changes certain things and refused to do others.

 

[stingers]

You're comparing it to a negative thing to try and give it a negative connotation. Of course they're the same thing BECAUSE you only changed one word. It's just a dirty trick to try and get people to agree with you...lol fallacies

You keep saying "Certain changes are bad for the game" but you don't give examples and reasons why they are bad. You just say that they are and refuse to listen to reason. I recall writing like 4 paragraphs on why Lucas should have a Zair maybe a page or 2 back and nobody responded to it at all. Yet someone else said later something like "Lucas mains, you'll never get that zair!" or something stupid and they don't even give justification. You're the same way.

"I don't want too add new moves to the game."
"Why?"
"Because I don't."
"Why?"
"There's no reason to."
"Yes there is, -gives a long list of reasons-."
"I don't agree."
"Why?"
"Because we shouldn't add new moves."

Do you see what's going on? It's a pointless circular argument that will never end, but you have the final say because your name is gRAPE and mine is Pink. You say you will listen to all community input and then you refuse it at your own discretion. It makes no sense to me.

 

[GHNeko]

You're comparing it to a negative thing to try and give it a negative connotation. Of course they're the same thing BECAUSE you only changed one word. It's just a dirty trick to try and get people to agree with you...lol fallacies

You keep saying "Certain changes are bad for the game" but you don't give examples and reasons why they are bad. You just say that they are and refuse to listen to reason. I recall writing like 4 paragraphs on why Lucas should have a Zair maybe a page or 2 back and nobody responded to it at all. Yet someone else said later something like "Lucas mains, you'll never get that zair!" or something stupid and they don't even give justification. You're the same way.

"I don't want too add new moves to the game."
"Why?"
"Because I don't."
"Why?"
"There's no reason to."
"Yes there is, -gives a long list of reasons-."
"I don't agree."
"Why?"
"Because we shouldn't add new moves."

Do you see what's going on? It's a pointless circular argument that will never end, but you have the final say because your name is gRAPE and mine is Pink. You say you will listen to all community input and then you refuse it at your own discretion. It makes no sense to me.

1. I've said that adding hitboxes to attacks that never had a hitbox in the first place is a change that I personally felt to far. Why? We dont need to go that far because the current tools we have are more than enough. We shouldnt HAVE to add new hitboxes to hitbox-less attacks in order to achieve a goal. If anything, it should be a last resort which is a ways off.

2. All those reasons for Zair on Lucas basically improve on Lucas' weakness which is something he should retain.

3. The things can Lucas' Zair can do can be done with other moves when tweaked an improved on.

4. There is no where near enough justification to add new hitboxes to moves that have none when there are workarounds.

4. The acceptance of one thing aids in the acceptance of other things. That is a slippery slope. What stops that is limits. I want to stop this in the early stages by imposing limits on certain things. The goal for Brawl+ can easily be reached within limits as we have more than enough at our disposal to reach that goal.

 

[The Cape]

If we add the hitbox to Lucas's zair its a big change and will bring other mains (looking at Ness and Link) who want new moves put on their characters.

I personally had an idea for a new Ganon nair that would operate exactly the same as his current one, but be a different animation to seperate him from falcon. We will likely not be accepting that one as well as it opens up the entire problem with creating new moves for characters.

If we make one new move, then every main is going to want a new move for their character. That is the issue.

 

[stingers]

If we add the hitbox to Lucas's zair its a big change and will bring other mains (looking at Ness and Link) who want new moves put on their characters.

That's silly. That's what the WBR was formed for, to regulate the changes, right? Even if they try to convince you to change something, you can just say no. Like what you're doing for Lucas' Zair right now -.-

 

[5ive]

OH ****

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200700

November 2008. Where it all started.

 

[GHNeko]

OH ****

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200700

November 2008. Where it all started.

Let's have an anniversary then the day comes around. :V

 

[cookieM0Nster]

OH ****

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200700

November 2008. Where it all started.

Lol, I remember when people said it would be impossible to wavedash XD

Ah, good times.

agreed with GHNeko.

 

[5ive]

lol at my old view. Wavedash + L cancel with no hitstun changes :/.

edit: new page repost

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200700
November 2008. Where Brawl+ all started

 

[GHNeko]

I hated Brawl+ back than and wish it would die.

Look at me now. WBR and livin large. Stompin on Lucas' mainer's dreams because I'm a big meanie face and nerfing Shiek because Zelda is hotter and gives me better sex.

Spoiler

sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.

 

[Shadic]

If we add the hitbox to Lucas's zair its a big change and will bring other mains (looking at Ness and Link) who want new moves put on their characters.

Link? What new move would we want for Link?

We're just discussing small changes to compensate for the random nerfs he got this set.

 

[GHNeko]

lol @ dair spam. I personally think that only that move should of gotten a tad more lag. I dont know about his other nerfs. I do believe some of them were unintentional.

 

[The Cape]

Have a suggestion for Kirby here and would like the opinions of the community.

As you know we have weakened Kirby's F smash down quite a bit but I would like to propose that we remove all the F smash nerfs that Kirby has as its a good pressuring tool, KO move, and is one of his approach moves.

I would however like to see his bair have less KBG so that it does kill as efficiently as it does now. Something like making it kill 25% later than his unnerfed F smash on Mario at the center of FD (poor Mario).
This change will assist Kirby's edgeguarding game as it will take longer for the opponent to get outside his range and allow him to link more bairs off stage for a longer time, it will also be less effective on the larger characters as they have some trouble approaching through Kirby's good air control and disjointed range on bair (which is also a great KO move). Since bair will be doing most of its KOing off the stage it will not harm its KO power much in that situation as the KBG matters less and less the closer you get to the edge.

Please give your opinions on this.

 

[The Cape]

Link:

The dash attack damage change was unintentional and we have already found the issue and fixed it.

Dair had way too little landing lag and should have been rectified. Uair has lower landing lag as the amount it had initially was plain absurd and the move is a juggle move and not a KO move. The other aerials cancelled quickly at 100% ALR and are therefore not affected much by the change to 50% from the 35% initially.

So the dash attack was unintentional and the dair was actually intentional as the ALR on the move made the move pretty silly overall. Dair is a powerful move with good uses and the ALR on it will now force it to be used with a bit more care.

 

[stingers]

I like this idea I gave like 2 months ago better:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7612871&postcount=2844

plz

 

[GHNeko]

So wait. You want to buff kirby, net wise, by enhancing his edgeguarding game? Something he already excels at while restoring power to his fsmash?

wat

 

[The Cape]

So wait. You want to buff kirby, net wise, by enhancing his edgeguarding game? Something he already excels at while restoring power to his fsmash?

wat

Not entirely. I have seen and heard from many players these days (5ive included) that Kirby bair has won matches almost entirely by itself due to Kirby's air control and the move's disjointed hitbox. With good use the move can actually turn most matches over. Less KO power makes the move less potent on the stage which is an overall nerf to Kirby. The offstage capabilities of it in most matches would actually be relatively unchanged for the most part as dealing with the move off stage at those specific percents would be less likely than dealing with it on the stage at any percent.

The F smash should be his best KO move overall as it powerful, but I could see adding a few more frames of winddown to it after the hitbox ends to decrease its advantage on sheild, this makes it a good KO move but not as good of a pressuring move.

Kirby overall seems really solid but these two moves stand out as being a bit overpowered. The rest of his moveset is entirely solid, but the bair especially has the ability to become the main focus of his entire moveset and I believe needs most of the attention.

 

[Beo]

How about removing all the dumb changes to Bowser, and buffing his tilts speed.

/hijack thread

 

[The Cape]

We already buffed his tilts speed. And you have to be specific when you say "dumb changes" since no one obviously knows what you mean by that.

 

[Beo]

His D Tilt start up speed was buffed at one point. It was removed for god knows why.

Bowser also got "boozer don't care" removed because he "didn't need it"

and now he has this stupid Super Armor thing when he crawls? Just go back to Boozer don't care, or buff him like a normal character. Playing Bowser now feels like a gimmick

 

[The Cape]

Boozer dont care, while assisting Bowser in taking less damage was actually a huge flaw. The less damge lead to less KB which therefore actually made it easier to combo him, making it do the opposite of what it should have done.

D tilt does not need the speed up as it comes out relatively quick as is and is fairly safe due to the winddown speed increase on it. This keeps Bowser in his "thinking character tank" kind of mode.

As for the super armor crawl this gives Bowser an actual approach against alot of his problem areas. He sacrifices mobility for the ability to approach characters like Falco and Diddy. This again flows into the "thinking tank" aspect of the character.

As for playing Bowser like a gimmick, what about his infinite jump BS? Now THATS a freaking gimmick.

 

[GHNeko]

God **** it Beo. You know you can't provide legit arguments. Go back to the IRC.

God ****.

 

[Blank Mauser]

My personal opinion on Kirby: I don't feel Kirby needs any changes. He was perfectly fine without any nerfs, and I don't even feel Kirby is top 10 material. If the opponent plays patient and abuses Kirby's lack of approaches then he's fairly easy to handle.

As for Fsmash, the least thing I'd want on it is cooldown. Getting combo'd on whiff or even block is a huge nerf.

Nerfing his bread and butter won't change any matchups, and is counterproductive for the whole point of his character. If I were to ever consider nerfing Fsmash and Bair I would want something to compensate and help maximize his moveset's potential overall.

 

[Beo]

You need super armor to approach? and you're a bowser main? I think you should stick to Mario.

F Air has zero landing lag, and Side B has very....odd reach on it.

you should also look into using Up B in the air. This super armor thing is completely unnecessary.

And the reason all these dumb changes go through is most likely because you're the only Bowser "player" in the back room.

You need the help of people who actually PLAY Bowser. Yet you banned me when I voiced my opinion and disagreed with you. nice job.

 

[cAm8ooo]

You need super armor to approach? and you're a bowser main? I think you should stick to Mario.

Good luck f-air'ing through falcos lasers. Too bad you couldn't just crawl through them, o wait....

 

[GHNeko]

Oh yea. That thread full of boozer mains dont count at all. No no no. And there aren't any other Boozer players in backroom either. Cape is the only boozer main. Oh. And you too.

:/

My personal opinion on Kirby: I don't feel Kirby needs any changes. He was perfectly fine without any nerfs, and I don't even feel Kirby is top 10 material. If the opponent plays patient and abuses Kirby's lack of approaches then he's fairly easy to handle.

As for Fsmash, the least thing I'd want on it is cooldown. Getting combo'd on whiff or even block is a huge nerf.

Nerfing his bread and butter won't change any matchups, and is counterproductive for the whole point of his character. If I were to ever consider nerfing Fsmash and Bair I would want something to compensate and help maximize his moveset's potential overall.

Kirby isnt top 10. His bair is though. :V

Just saying.

 

[Beo]

Good luck f-air'ing through falcos lasers. Too bad you couldn't just crawl through them, o wait....

And a lot of %, leading to death. Nice.

 

[SSBFalco]

Kirby not top 10?! Good god, who can possibly be in your top 10 list then?

I myself find Kirby to be a TINY bit overpowered. The only thing that I think really should be tweaked a bit are in fact Fsmash and Bair. Fsmash is unbelievably fast and safe, and even with the nerfs its recieved, it still kills early. I'd really like to see this move nerfed again just very slightly in KBG or increase it's windup/cooldown. Bair is just incredibly good and needs a little nerfing as well imo. Just a slight decrease in KBG like The Cape mentioned wouldn't harm Kirby too much, if at all.