Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[grim mouser]

Some glitches I found:

Jigglypuff: if you're on the ledge and you do a horizontal side-b, you will automatically snap to the ledge when you aren't really close to the ledge (in b+ standards, at least.)

Ganondorf: you can cancel his up-tilt after the move finished. so that means explosion -> jab instantly. is that intended? i know he has IASA frames on that move now but still.

The Jiggly thing sounds cool. I haven't noticed that yet.

The Ganondorf u-tilt cancel post-completion is interesting... I was playing around today and noticed that. Possible combos off u-tilt? =O

 

[Deleted member]

try the jiggs thing, it's really silly because she teleports to the ledge from a very abnormal distance. it's a full on snap.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

yeah, get over it. her side b has a big range. and jigglypuff's ledge grab range is really ridiculous in the first place. it's a part of her character. why do people want to nerf every little thing that is really unique and good about a character? JESUS!

 

[Deleted member]

It's a glitch. It looks unprofessional? I play jiggs all the time and I just feel it looks sloppy.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I use side b to snap onto the ledge all the time. side b is a good recovery move. >.>

 

[Deleted member]

Umm, obviously. But do you ledge drop (aka, press away from the stage on your control stick) then do a side-B? No. But when you do you snap.

 

[grim mouser]

It's a glitch. It looks unprofessional? I play jiggs all the time and I just feel it looks sloppy.

Wait, does this differ from her normal LOL grab range? I know her ledge grab range is obscene as is, but does Pound make it longer? Are you talking about using Pound on-stage, or while hanging from the ledge?

Edit- Ninja'd. In that case, yeah, I've used that. It's pretty funny.

 

[iLink]

I just think stuff deserves to be nerfed. Stupid stuff like recovering your jump by performing a laggy special off-stage. Stuff like characters whose names start with M and end with eta Knight. We've been continually making stiff better and better, but where does it stop? Why do we have double standards, where those characters that were weak are only buffed to teh point of viability, and those that were 2gud are nerfed just a smidge, even though they definitely can get cut down to size?

Also, I'll admit the SSS is more trouble than it's worth. However, once we go Gold and aren't hassled by constant codeset changes, I think we should reconsider implementing it.

Fox and squirtle say hi

And the nerfs you are suggesting actually nerf the lower tier ones so I don't follow your logic.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

....you mean you're hanging from the ledge, press away go off, and then side b? I do that too...

or do you mean like ON the edge of the stage?

 

[Revven]

I don't like the philosophy the WBR has therefore I decided to post my feelings because I feel it should be done my way. Despite the fact that I don't go to tourneys and don't see how these changes effect anything, I feel that I am right in saying we should remove stuff that some characters need because I don't like it. Basically, I feel the WBR is wrong in their decisions and I should be heard.

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Meta Knight wasn't nerfed a "smidge". When you combine ALL the nerfs to him, it really amounts to a lot. First off, the Shuttle Loop nerf hurts him being able to kill with a quick and easy move that combos in the air. Dsmash being nerfed forces him to actually use a much slower kill move and forces him to actually space where as before he could just sit there and Dsmash all day, no skill at all, EZ mode. Next, his Dtilt nerf hurts a bit of his pressure game and his Dthrow nerf stops easy techchases PLUS hurts his options from throws, it was a really good throw that needed to lose most of its easy pass techchases.

What else did we do... there's a lot more than that. Oh yeah the 'nado nerf stops him from constantly using 'nado and getting away with it AND his specials are now actually punishable when he goes into fall special! All of these things lump into one giant thing and are the best nerfs to give him without making him feel like he isn't himself. MK actually has to work for his kills, gimp, use Fsmash! He can't simply spam SL or Dsmash all day.

If you think this isn't enough for MK, then what you want is him to be crippled to the point where he is not who he is supposed to be. And that is the wrong way to balance a character.

Complaining about Ganondorf down B reset and Yoshi Side B reset? They fix what their problem is, predictable recoveries, it doesn't completely rid them of ****ty recoveries! It just varies them a bit, especially considering that without down B reset Ganondorf doesn't get much benefit from the Up B momentum code, if any at all.

Some characters need help in recovery, Ness is someone with a terrible recovery, we addressed that for awhile then realized we could do something better without completely removing a weakness to his Up B. Although the infinite PKT1 was very good, so are the current changes to what he can do to recover back to the stage, again more variance.

We nerfed Marth but at the same time buffed him in other ways to promote a style that doesn't make him way 2gud in certain match-ups but in others he may do better than he did before. Fox, we technically nerfed him by giving him more depth at the cost of an easy pass Dair. Meta Knight, we got rid of his potent KO moves and toned down a move that distorted match-ups pretty **** well (meaning they were centered around the tornado). One of those match-ups being DK, who can get constantly trapped in it if the MK follows his DI. We nerfed Wario's Dthrow, getting rid of his CG, we nerfed Pikachu, getting of his Dthrow CG... that's already most of the top 10 characters people consider top 10! And you think that, we're going overboard with buffs?

There's a point where you shouldn't nerf a character where they do not feel right. MK has gotten well a good deal amount of nerfs. Because of that quantity, there is a stigma against playing him! So there's no real way to know if he's top or if he's second (though of course we believe he is still top due to combos and such but, that's a different discussion). The point is, we basically agreed a long time ago that we would not nerf MK to the point where we would have to reduce the range of his moves (which is probably what you want us to do) or remove his transcendent priority (which in a way could actually buff him, because that would allow him to clank with projectiles... which is a current weakness to MK).

You don't understand why we do things like this, which is why you feel this way. I am severely annoyed with you right now for thinking that MK hasn't gotten enough nerfs. He was the very first character we ever did anything to with frame speed mod and hitbox property mod and you still think he needs nerfing?

Quoted for Truth

You're only agreeing with him because you want Lucas Zair and hate all the Zelda changes. You annoy me with your constant Lucas needing **** and I'm tired of it. It makes me want to support Lucas Zair less and less. I'm actually OKAY with it FYI but, if you're going to continue to whine and moan about not getting what you want then you may as well not get it at all. You're not even giving distinct reasons why he needs it or what match-ups it helps him in, no evidence at all to push for it.

Severely annoying but, I responded anyway.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Meta Knight wasn't nerfed a "smidge". When you combine ALL the nerfs to him, it really amounts to a lot. First off, the Shuttle Loop nerf hurts him being able to kill with a quick and easy move that combos in the air. Dsmash being nerfed forces him to actually use a much slower kill move and forces him to actually space where as before he could just sit there and Dsmash all day, no skill at all, EZ mode. Next, his Dtilt nerf hurts a bit of his pressure game and his Dthrow nerf stops easy techchases PLUS hurts his options from throws, it was a really good throw that needed to lose most of its easy pass techchases.

What else did we do... there's a lot more than that. Oh yeah the 'nado nerf stops him from constantly using 'nado and getting away with it AND his specials are now actually punishable when he goes into fall special! All of these things lump into one giant thing and are the best nerfs to give him without making him feel like he isn't himself. MK actually has to work for his kills, gimp, use Fsmash! He can't simply spam SL or Dsmash all day.

If you think this isn't enough for MK, then what you want is him to be crippled to the point where he is not who he is supposed to be. And that is the wrong way to balance a character.

Complaining about Ganondorf down B reset and Yoshi Side B reset? They fix what their problem is, predictable recoveries, it doesn't completely rid them of ****ty recoveries! It just varies them a bit, especially considering that without down B reset Ganondorf doesn't get much benefit from the Up B momentum code, if any at all.

Some characters need help in recovery, Ness is someone with a terrible recovery, we addressed that for awhile then realized we could do something better without completely removing a weakness to his Up B. Although the infinite PKT1 was very good, so are the current changes to what he can do to recover back to the stage, again more variance.

We nerfed Marth but at the same time buffed him in other ways to promote a style that doesn't make him way 2gud in certain match-ups but in others he may do better than he did before. Fox, we technically nerfed him by giving him more depth at the cost of an easy pass Dair. Meta Knight, we got rid of his potent KO moves and toned down a move that distorted match-ups pretty **** well (meaning they were centered around the tornado). One of those match-ups being DK, who can get constantly trapped in it if the MK follows his DI. We nerfed Wario's Dthrow, getting rid of his CG, we nerfed Pikachu, getting of his Dthrow CG... that's already most of the top 10 characters people consider top 10! And you think that, we're going overboard with buffs?

There's a point where you shouldn't nerf a character where they do not feel right. MK has gotten well a good deal amount of nerfs. Because of that quantity, there is a stigma against playing him! So there's no real way to know if he's top or if he's second (though of course we believe he is still top due to combos and such but, that's a different discussion). The point is, we basically agreed a long time ago that we would not nerf MK to the point where we would have to reduce the range of his moves (which is probably what you want us to do) or remove his transcendent priority (which in a way could actually buff him, because that would allow him to clank with projectiles... which is a current weakness to MK).

You don't understand why we do things like this, which is why you feel this way. I am severely annoyed with you right now for thinking that MK hasn't gotten enough nerfs. He was the very first character we ever did anything to with frame speed mod and hitbox property mod and you still think he needs nerfing? You suck.



You're only agreeing with him because you want Lucas Zair and hate all the Zelda changes. You annoy me with your constant Lucas needing **** and I'm tired of it. It makes me want to support Lucas Zair less and less. I'm actually OKAY with it FYI but, if you're going to continue to whine and moan about not getting what you want then you may as well not get it at all. You're not even giving distinct reasons why he needs it or what match-ups it helps him in, no evidence at all to push for it.

Severely annoying but, I responded anyway.

^^^^You, sir, have won this thread.

BTW my sig has a word with a lot of you people

 

[Mattnumbers]

I said Quoted for Truth because I agree that you haven't nerfed the characters considered great, yet say that characters are fine when they are just barely viable. If you look at it I deleted the part about the specials.

Also I apologize for any grievances I may have caused in seeking changes for my main, the last thing I wanted to do was aggravate people.

 

[grim mouser]

Agree. Why not wait for consistent match/tourney results before jumping to conclusions about which characters are "broken"? The stigma against MK is almost unchanged from vB, despite all the nerfs which make him more even with the rest of the cast.

 

[PKNintendo]

Falco400 post is filled with win.

You can practically feel that punch from his avatar.
Awesome.

 

[Hyrus]

Would it be worth it to make Link and Toon Link always stay in the Wait1 animation using PSA (I'm pretty sure it's possible, just wondering if it'll be worth it)? That way, the character won't randomly go into Wait2/Wait3 when you're trying to block projectiles. +Walking while blocking.

If anything, the shield blocking projectiles ought to be removed. The blocking hitbox is inconsistant, really small, and it's usually a better idea to just shield/dodge the projectile anyway. Link and Toon Link are not characters that have trouble against projectile users nor do they need an extra block mechanism for their character. I'd wager the mechanism was just a dumb gimmick put in for the sake of making the shield look like it actually gets used in some way, rather than incorporating it into their movesets.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

"We nerfed Marth but at the same time buffed him in other ways to promote a style that doesn't make him way 2gud in certain match-ups but in others he may do better than he did before. Fox, we technically nerfed him by giving him more depth at the cost of an easy pass Dair. Meta Knight, we got rid of his potent KO moves and toned down a move that distorted match-ups pretty **** well (meaning they were centered around the tornado). One of those match-ups being DK, who can get constantly trapped in it if the MK follows his DI. We nerfed Wario's Dthrow, getting rid of his CG, we nerfed Pikachu, getting of his Dthrow CG... that's already most of the top 10 characters people consider top 10!"

"you haven't nerfed the characters considered great"


wut

Sorry for my lack of posting skillz, but I don't know how to multiquote bits of people's posts.

 

[stingers]

Responding to the bottom of Falco's post (the top was excellent btw but that's all I have to say about it):

Lucas needs a Zair because:
- Lack of range OR disjointed approach in the air makes everything he can do in the air counterable by full jumping backwards...not what we want. You have to space everything perfectly or rely on surprising people with Momentum to land any hits. This by default turns Lucas into a defensively oriented character because he cannot do anything offensively at higher levels of play. I think the main argument against that last time was I did fine in my MM with Thunderhorse or something, examine the matches closely and look as how hellish I was getting ***** and how I relied on a few close hits to even damage the dude. Falco is a completely campy character anyway and you can't camp Lucas which makes that kind of a bad matchup in the first place. Thorse did a great job of keeping the pressure on anyway which leads me to my next point...

- His whole defensive game consists of spacing PK Fires. For 1, his tilts don't have the range like ROBs or DKs to be able to snipe people out of the air. The fact you can't angle his ftilt up and down is the main reason for that, if you could I think his defensive game would be fine because it's such a fast move but there's nothing we can do about that. You can't jump back Fair because the obscene lack of range means you'll end up trading hits at best or getting hit anyway at worst by EVERYONE. I'd say Lucas actually has the least aerial range out of anyone in the game which is absurd for such a momentum-based character.

How would Zair fix those problems?

1. Meaningful, space-able approach (even if it doesn't truly link into anything, it will always be good for regaining momentum)
2. Useful defense (Jump back Zair would do what Jump back Fair could not)
3. Fixes Lucas's ******** lack of range (though by the looks of the animation there's no way it could have enough range to break him)

I hope you could follow that...I'm kind of distracted right now :D (no johns i know)

 

[Mattnumbers]

.......Stingers beat me to the punch.


And no, I don't think that the characters considered good have been nerfed enough (except maybe marth because I'm not sure how good he is in his new form). Metaknight still has fast attacks, ridiculous priority, fairly good range, a great recovery, and a generally good moveset. Although I understand waiting to nerf until there is more data, some characters are obviously better than others.


EDIT: Stingers, actually you CAN angle Lucas's Ftilt, but only downwards as far as I can tell.

 

[stingers]

oh yeah you can angle it down. how uh..."useful"

...is there any way to invert that in PSA? @.@

 

[SSBFalco]

You can actually angle Lucas's ftilt both up and down.

And Lucas not having disjointed attacks? I thought Fair, Dair, and Bair were all disjointed? Dair and Fair are the only moves I use to approach with, but Fair does trade hits often, which is usually not worth it...

 

[Plum]

I would just like to take the time to say something that we really don't see at all from all of the Workshop regulars.

Thank you so much for this project, what it has done for us in the Smash community, the hacking community, and for the hours of fun this game has given me since I first picked up Brawl+.

I've been following Brawl+ since the Melee airdodge code first came out. I was here when Smashboards created the Workshop just for us, and I'm still here and faithful. Now I'm not going to look through the about 750 posts of mine, but I've probably only said thank you once; for all I know I never said thank you. Quite frankly, when I realize this it kind of disgusts me. I feel horrible for how much we have taken for granted.

We see so much talk about buffs and nerfs to every sort of character that we forget the point of Brawl+. Viability is not being great, and being able to beat characters that can abuse your natural weaknesses. Viability is being able to use a character in a tournament setting if enough effort is put into that character. Just because your character has poor range and characters like Marth, MK and G&W can abuse the lack of range doesn't mean the character needs nerfs or buffs, especially when your character performs very well once they find an opening. (yeah I do have a specific character in mind there) Maybe you would be better off with a secondary like Snake who has long range, and amazing defenses against those types of characters. Tiers will always exist no matter what. Just accept the fact that you may be stuck with a lower end character, and know that other characters may have an easier time than you. It's just a fact of fighting games. At the very least, give matchups a time to develop before going crazy about your character needing anything.

Let's look at this thread alone. Over 550 pages, and almost 8300 posts. Again, I'm not going to bother looking through so much content, but most of it is probably fairly similar comments. By that I mean stuff like "The WBR is ******** for these changes! I don't realize this is all for test purposes, and instead of posting constructive criticism I will just ***** and moan about it. Why the hell would they even put this in here? These changes have not been thought out in the least bit! I'm not going to give the change any time to settle in, nor am I going to learn how to play with it. Change is bad, I'm right, so change it now. Character X needs buffs! Character Y needs nerfs! Oh, and by the way, once you do something to Character X and Character Y I will just ***** and moan about those changes too!"

Maybe I got a little off topic from what I really wanted to say (okay, not maybe... I did) so I'm going to just get back to that. To everyone working behind the scenes to make Brawl+ the best project it can be, I give you my sincerest thanks.

The coders who made the project possible in the first place, Phantom Wings, Spunit, Almas, Paprika Killer, Y.S, and anyone that may have slipped my mind: without all of your combined drive to see how far hacking Brawl could reach we wouldn't be here today. Everything from the hitstun codes, character specific changes, default settings, move modifiers, file replacement, etc. have driven this game to be by far the most hacked console game out there. That's not a small achievement by any standard.

The WBR who actually took the time to learn how these codes work, and put their free time into trying to please a stubborn community: many, many thanks. A lot of us here sit and complain about changes, and how things should be done, codes that should be made and so on and so forth. I'm sure most of those people don't realize that it isn't so easy. You guys have to sit down and find move data, then find the perfect values for the moves. I know myself that if I sat down with the codes that I would be lost. I can change the KB angle of a move, maybe the damage it does, if I really wanted to challenge myself I could do simple frame data but nothing on the scale those in the WBR had to do. It's one of those things where you have to say "okay, do it yourself if you know better" to see where the WBR is coming from. They have a big number of people to please, and they have to deal with a whole lot of crap from the very people they try to appease. Put yourself in their shoes before you *****, and imagine the stress we put them under.

I have had so much fun playing this game, and it is all thanks to the WBR and their work with the Plussery. Everyone in the WBR and the coders who gave us the tools to make this game deserves a huge pat on the back, because they outdid themselves. We may not agree with every decision the WBR makes, but I know we can be more civilized about our criticism. They certainly have earned the right to constructive criticism instead of the rather harsh tone many of us give.

 

[stingers]

i just tried and i do not see anything when you attempt to angle lucases ftilt up

and no they're not disjointed. his nair is disjointed but like...the same way mewtwo's nair was disjointed. IE it doesn't matter at all.

 

[SSBFalco]

I tried it a long time ago, and it's a very negligible difference in angle. If you pause it you can tell the difference between the two.

And maybe I have a misunderstanding of disjointed attacks but I always assumed any attack that had a hitbox that extended past the character's hurtbox was a disjoint?

 

[KOkingpin]

Just wanna let you guys know we got loads of matches from the Latest Game Galaxy tournament for the latest nightly build. It seemed VERY stable with no glitches. I will be uploading them all as soon as we get them recorded onto my External HD.

Meta Knight is still amazing. Mainly in Doubles though. So is Snake.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205928

 

[Sterowent]

I would just like to take the time to say something that we really don't see at all from all of the Workshop regulars.

Thank you so much for this project, what it has done for us in the Smash community, the hacking community, and for the hours of fun this game has given me since I first picked up Brawl+.

I've been following Brawl+ since the Melee airdodge code first came out. I was here when Smashboards created the Workshop just for us, and I'm still here and faithful. Now I'm not going to look through the about 750 posts of mine, but I've probably only said thank you once; for all I know I never said thank you. Quite frankly, when I realize this it kind of disgusts me. I feel horrible for how much we have taken for granted.

We see so much talk about buffs and nerfs to every sort of character that we forget the point of Brawl+. Viability is not being great, and being able to beat characters that can abuse your natural weaknesses. Viability is being able to use a character in a tournament setting if enough effort is put into that character. Just because your character has poor range and characters like Marth, MK and G&W can abuse the lack of range doesn't mean the character needs nerfs or buffs, especially when your character performs very well once they find an opening. (yeah I do have a specific character in mind there) Maybe you would be better off with a secondary like Snake who has long range, and amazing defenses against those types of characters. Tiers will always exist no matter what. Just accept the fact that you may be stuck with a lower end character, and know that other characters may have an easier time than you. It's just a fact of fighting games. At the very least, give matchups a time to develop before going crazy about your character needing anything.

Let's look at this thread alone. Over 550 pages, and almost 8300 posts. Again, I'm not going to bother looking through so much content, but most of it is probably fairly similar comments. By that I mean stuff like "The WBR is ******** for these changes! I don't realize this is all for test purposes, and instead of posting constructive criticism I will just ***** and moan about it. Why the hell would they even put this in here? These changes have not been thought out in the least bit! I'm not going to give the change any time to settle in, nor am I going to learn how to play with it. Change is bad, I'm right, so change it now. Character X needs buffs! Character Y needs nerfs! Oh, and by the way, once you do something to Character X and Character Y I will just ***** and moan about those changes too!"

Maybe I got a little off topic from what I really wanted to say (okay, not maybe... I did) so I'm going to just get back to that. To everyone working behind the scenes to make Brawl+ the best project it can be, I give you my sincerest thanks.

The coders who made the project possible in the first place, Phantom Wings, Spunit, Almas, Paprika Killer, Y.S, and anyone that may have slipped my mind: without all of your combined drive to see how far hacking Brawl could reach we wouldn't be here today. Everything from the hitstun codes, character specific changes, default settings, move modifiers, file replacement, etc. have driven this game to be by far the most hacked console game out there. That's not a small achievement by any standard.

The WBR who actually took the time to learn how these codes work, and put their free time into trying to please a stubborn community: many, many thanks. A lot of us here sit and complain about changes, and how things should be done, codes that should be made and so on and so forth. I'm sure most of those people don't realize that it isn't so easy. You guys have to sit down and find move data, then find the perfect values for the moves. I know myself that if I sat down with the codes that I would be lost. I can change the KB angle of a move, maybe the damage it does, if I really wanted to challenge myself I could do simple frame data but nothing on the scale those in the WBR had to do. It's one of those things where you have to say "okay, do it yourself if you know better" to see where the WBR is coming from. They have a big number of people to please, and they have to deal with a whole lot of crap from the very people they try to appease. Put yourself in their shoes before you *****, and imagine the stress we put them under.

I have had so much fun playing this game, and it is all thanks to the WBR and their work with the Plussery. Everyone in the WBR and the coders who gave us the tools to make this game deserves a huge pat on the back, because they outdid themselves. We may not agree with every decision the WBR makes, but I know we can be more civilized about our criticism. They certainly have earned the right to constructive criticism instead of the rather harsh tone many of us give.

while i don't have any intention of settling for 'really awesome' when 'thebestthebestthebest' is a superior goal,
hear hear. i've played since just as momentum was introduced. i'd faded out of an online brawl community and yearned for smash i remembered when i was younger, 64. head to youtubes, check out some vids, i'm impressed. i'm wondering how a game i'm so familiar with could look and feel so different, and in a good way no less! i'm 3.4 at the time, go through the motions, and i start it up. i'm awful at the game, but that doesn't stop me from having a blast. holy ****, ganon feels better! kirby feels a bit strange, but he's still my mainstay. CFalcon's not bottom anymore! i always knew he was built for hitstun over any other char. he feels so natural.

i continue to update, hearing about line space, heading to the IRC, the first i ever jumped on for one reason or another. the discussion's pretty deep, and i'm filled with faith in this ****. 1000 different alternate loopholes for linespace later, and the sky's become the limit. now, just gotta work on that cam code (because it's awesome), and possibly some specific requests (wishful thinking for more speed, ATs, etc.)...

i really love this game. brawl was a lot of fun for me, but i'm a brawl+ player at heart.
Thanks, WBR. Thank you, Brawl Hackers. Thanks, smash community.

 

[MK26]

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Yes, it is actually. Does every opinion have to be in conformity with the WBR?

Meta Knight wasn't nerfed a "smidge". When you combine ALL the nerfs to him, it really amounts to a lot. First off, the Shuttle Loop nerf hurts him being able to kill with a quick and easy move that combos in the air. Dsmash being nerfed forces him to actually use a much slower kill move and forces him to actually space where as before he could just sit there and Dsmash all day, no skill at all, EZ mode. Next, his Dtilt nerf hurts a bit of his pressure game and his Dthrow nerf stops easy techchases PLUS hurts his options from throws, it was a really good throw that needed to lose most of its easy pass techchases.

What else did we do... there's a lot more than that. Oh yeah the 'nado nerf stops him from constantly using 'nado and getting away with it AND his specials are now actually punishable when he goes into fall special! All of these things lump into one giant thing and are the best nerfs to give him without making him feel like he isn't himself. MK actually has to work for his kills, gimp, use Fsmash! He can't simply spam SL or Dsmash all day.

If you think this isn't enough for MK, then what you want is him to be crippled to the point where he is not who he is supposed to be. And that is the wrong way to balance a character.

So first off, Shuttle Loop still kills. Much too early. The dsmash nerf is good though. Btw, I love how everybody starts yelling EZ to justify a change, but that's just me. Dorf's jab is easy mode if you ask me. So is his down-B jump recovery. but w/e.) Dthrow was obviously way too easy, but it's only been nerfed to far above average from ridiculous. Nado is still the nado, you just cant use it to recover any more since you lose too much height. That change didnt seem to work out the way it was planned to. The dtilt change is fine, but there are better moves to fix. His nair still does like 20 damage and can kill (though not necessarily at the same time). Uair and dair still have ridiculous frame advantages on hit, and they both self-chain far too much. Ftilt could use the fair/bair treatment (if there is an outside hitbox to get rid of).

My point is that we could change a ton of crap, and MK would still be MK: the king of the offstage game and spacer-comboer extraordinaire. We havent even reached the point where MK seems legitimately different from his vBrawl counterpart. He just has more combos and cant kill stupid early with dsmash. But Meta isnt top tier in vBrawl due to the dsmash. It's due to the fact that he has so many safe options, and can out-space even the farthest-ranged characters. He still has these safe options, and with the advent of combos (which are fairly trivial for him to pull off and relatively difficult for opponents to perform on him) MK is still clearly top tier at this point in time. He might have a counter or two, but I dont see anybody that can take his place at the top.

Complaining about Ganondorf down B reset and Yoshi Side B reset? They fix what their problem is, predictable recoveries, it doesn't completely rid them of ****ty recoveries! It just varies them a bit, especially considering that without down B reset Ganondorf doesn't get much benefit from the Up B momentum code, if any at all.

Some characters need help in recovery, Ness is someone with a terrible recovery, we addressed that for awhile then realized we could do something better without completely removing a weakness to his Up B. Although the infinite PKT1 was very good, so are the current changes to what he can do to recover back to the stage, again more variance.

And why does everybody have to have an unpredictable recovery? Falco's is linear. Marth. Mario. Falcon. Ike. I could rattle off half the cast if you asked me who has a predictable recovery. And to fix Ganon's up-b momentum, give him more aerial mobility. Easy. We can do that now, can't we?

We nerfed Marth but at the same time buffed him in other ways to promote a style that doesn't make him way 2gud in certain match-ups but in others he may do better than he did before. Fox, we technically nerfed him by giving him more depth at the cost of an easy pass Dair. Meta Knight, we got rid of his potent KO moves and toned down a move that distorted match-ups pretty **** well (meaning they were centered around the tornado). One of those match-ups being DK, who can get constantly trapped in it if the MK follows his DI. We nerfed Wario's Dthrow, getting rid of his CG, we nerfed Pikachu, getting of his Dthrow CG... that's already most of the top 10 characters people consider top 10! And you think that, we're going overboard with buffs?

Marth is good. I'm not complaining about everything. Fox's new shine combos into usmash at any percent (if you dont jump to cancel it), but especially once the opponent starts getting hard landing lag (which coincides with the low end of KO percents lol). And there's a difference between nerfing stuff and removing stupid **** that even a mental ****** would see needs to be gotten rid of.

There's a point where you shouldn't nerf a character where they do not feel right. MK has gotten well a good deal amount of nerfs. Because of that quantity, there is a stigma against playing him! So there's no real way to know if he's top or if he's second (though of course we believe he is still top due to combos and such but, that's a different discussion). The point is, we basically agreed a long time ago that we would not nerf MK to the point where we would have to reduce the range of his moves (which is probably what you want us to do) or remove his transcendent priority (which in a way could actually buff him, because that would allow him to clank with projectiles... which is a current weakness to MK).

Your first sentence is completely rebutted by the goal of balancing the ICs. A character that's 100% based around stupid **** will have to be almost completely different to be balanced. Not to mention Ness got a complete overhaul. iirc Link did too at one point. There's no right or wrong, if there was, you would've left Sheik's fair/uair alone. There have been a million and one huge changes, and several dont feel 'right', but can be gotten used to. Kirby nair much?

As far as I'm concerned, the line where you say "we're not gonna go there, that's messing with the core character" is too blurry to say "no range reductions" or "no speed reductions" or w/e. You have to look at everything at a case-by-case basis, then compare it to the whole, before making a decision. Perhaps Meta's ftilt really shouldnt hit your opponent at that angle and still have a ridiculous range and speed. But if the rest of his moveset is meh, perhaps that's a staple move in his arsenal. But where's the line between 'several staple moves' and 'a too good moveset'?

You don't understand why we do things like this, which is why you feel this way. I am severely annoyed with you right now for thinking that MK hasn't gotten enough nerfs. He was the very first character we ever did anything to with frame speed mod and hitbox property mod and you still think he needs nerfing?

Yes. I do. Again, dissenting opinion. I have the right to voice it. The WBR has done a lot of stuff right. But imposing arbitary limits, then only upholding them for some characters, isn't a good way of doing business. And if you even admit that he's still one of, if not the best character, then how can you say that meta doesnt need any more nerfs?

[...]

Severely annoying but, I responded anyway.

Thank you. That's all I ask.

oh yeah you can angle it down. how uh..."useful"

...is there any way to invert that in PSA? @.@

Well actually, PSA clearly shows both an up-angled and down-angled ftilt...

 

[GHNeko]

lol @ buffing lucas' weaknesses.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ftilt angles up but it's a very small amount, you can't even really tell unless you pause the game while you do it and compare them.

 

[GHNeko]

I do hope you guys realize that it will be near impossible to win state-scale and above tourneys with single characters. <__>

Unless your MK. :V

and even MK has bad stages and even match ups now, at the least. V:

Also, realize that tier lists will always operate on a bell curve. :V

So if one character is top, one will be mid, and one will be bottom. V:

So start accepting the fact that there will be low tiers and mid tiers and what not, and that you may in the end main a low/bottom/mid tier character.

When this happens, do NOT come asking for buffs and nerfs. Please. There HAS to be bottom/low/mid.

I'm just saying though, in a general fashion, as a sort of reminder and form of foreshadowing in Brawl+'s future.

 

[stingers]

nope it's actually pretty easy <__>

MK isn't even the best anymore! :V

Kirby has no bad stages and word's still out on the matchups. V:

 

[Mattnumbers]

I do hope you guys realize that it will be near impossible to win state-scale and above tourneys with single characters. <__>

Unless your MK. :V

and even MK has bad stages and even match ups now, at the least. V:

Also, realize that tier lists will always operate on a bell curve. :V

So if one character is top, one will be mid, and one will be bottom. V:

So start accepting the fact that there will be low tiers and mid tiers and what not, and that you may in the end main a low/bottom/mid tier character.

When this happens, do NOT come asking for buffs and nerfs. Please. There HAS to be bottom/low/mid.

I'm just saying though, in a general fashion, as a sort of reminder and form of foreshadowing in Brawl+'s future.

Just because there has to be a High Tier and a Low tier doesn't mean that they have to be significantly different. Once there is more balance data it will be much easier to see who is behind, and how much they need to be buffed in order to be good enough to not be at a constant disadvantage.

So in the end you may end up with a low/bottom tier character but It won't matter because that character will only be slightly worse than a high/top tier character.

 

[GHNeko]

But you can really only go so far before you change something that isnt supposed to be changed. :V


And yes. You're right about the balanced part.

And to gather more data, people need to play with what they have and learn to use what they're given before asking for wants. V:

I kinda wish we could lock this thread for a week after every release so people would stop giving initial feedback.

 

[stingers]

Nothing was "supposed" to be changed...you're putting arbitrary boundaries on something that deserves none.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Let's make this simple:

Thanks Smash Workshop guys for your hardwork and for bringing Brawl+ into existence. Without Brawl+ I probably wouldn't have any Smash game to play anymore, since I hate Brawl, Melee is old and I'm tired of it, and nobody plays Smash64, though it is cool.

Lucas' Ftilt DOES angle up and down. I do it all the time when I'm him. It's probably not as noticable as one would like it to be because it doesn't have as much range as Rob's/DK's.

@ KOKingPin:
Any vids from that tourney? I'd really like to see the Brawl+ singles and doubles.

Also, anybody know if Yoshi's Dthrow is getting a damage buff from 4%? I only ask because I would think that no throw should be that weak, damage-wise. And sorta relating to that, is there ever a reason to Dthrow with Bowser when his Uthrow gets a free aerial, or usually anyway? Dthrow does do 16%, but the Uthrow + free aerial equals more damage than the Dthrow, plus the possibility of getting a kill.

 

[KOkingpin]

nope it's actually pretty easy <__>

MK isn't even the best anymore! :V

Kirby has no bad stages and word's still out on the matchups. V:

man, i have to disagree with that. MK is still great. More so in doubles I will say but he is still a terror. His Nair covers all the weaknesses you thought he had. If you play him now like you were playing vBrawl hes stupid good. I dont think Kirby is as good as MK or Snake. Lucario on the other hand is pretty beastly.

MK doesnt Need a nerf though by any means he has the tools that were given to him to be a good character. I dont think there is Much more we can do to Fix Sakurai's Mistake without completely wrecking him as a viable character.

About the stages Dedede has the same issue he has no bad stages and has almost all the same tools as Kirby. Cept he is a fatty lol.

Speaking of Lucario. I think that his Up throw should really be looked at. The growth on it is seemingly low and he can get combos out of it at rediculously high percentages. Like 130 and the like. It is insanely good. It may be cause Dedede is super fat that I got trampled by it but you know. Its cool if its part of his early percentage combos but at high percentages its pretty **** too.

OK im gonna quit jabbering now.

@ KOKingPin:
Any vids from that tourney? I'd really like to see the Brawl+ singles and doubles.

there are but I'll have to convert them tonight and tomorrow cause there were a ton. Gonna upload them with im done to my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/KOkingpinBrawlPlus

Ill let everyone know when im done

 

[stingers]

what weaknesses did I say MK had?

 

[GHNeko]

Nothing was "supposed" to be changed...you're putting arbitrary boundaries on something that deserves none.

Everything needs limits. It doesn't matter what. Nothing is infinite. Everything is finite.

B+ is NOT exempt from this rule in any shape/form/fashion.

 

[stingers]

Sky's the limit.

 

[KOkingpin]

what weaknesses did I say MK had?

i didnt say you said he had a weakness i meant it covers his weaknesses by being a freakishly good move with combo and kill potential. His only real weakness is his light weight.

 

[GHNeko]

Sky's the limit.

And even the sky has limits, son.