Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[SymphonicSage12]

I just noticed something. I was in training, and did lucario's ftilt. it said 3 damage, and then 5 damage...and said "total damage: 9".... >.>


not sure if that was appropriate here, but w/e

And Finns, you're pretty much wrong about everything you said. Get over your reeking bias and talk intelligently.

 

[Finns7]

your telling me utilt isnt wrong. Even though this is a fantasy game some things hold true. A physical attack shouldnt have a hitbox like that, And if we can make snake MORE viable and remove them why not. AGAIN ZELDA IS NOT NESS.

Ness doesnt have oos or instant bair or fair which will kill and send at a low angle fair being buffed a while back btw. he doesnt have her upsmash which combos like and utilt at early percents and kills. Im not saying one is better or w/e im just saying zelda didnt need it.

The discription is kinda the same but not really, couple months ago some peach mains were crying about not having any kill moves or w/e, The same holds true to jiggs also, edguarding and rest but those arnt dtilt to utilt upsmash fair or bair or fsmash..........or grab to bthrow.

symphonic sage are you sure? If so it prob was like 3.5 and 5.5

 

[SymphonicSage12]

people dealt with snake's utilt in vbrawl. You need to as well.

zelda's up smash doesn't combo. lrn2SDI and get out of the way of her up smash. jeez.

And zelda's grab game sucks. Yes, she has options out of throws, but good luck landing a grab on a halfway decent player.

and zelda's utilt....Tech, SDI, roll away...

And organize your posts a little more. Please.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Uthrow-uair actually used to work on a lot of characters to sky KO at very low percents. Mario, Ness, Lucario just to name a few.

If you can't DI her bthrow, I don't know what to say. With proper DI the bthrow still sends quite high giving you more than enough wiggle room to recover, even as a fast faller. Her grab is always relatively difficult to land. Frame 11-12 is as slow as it gets for non-tether grabs. By comparison, almost all other non-tether grabs are 6-7 frames. She won't be shield grabbing much if you space your aerials properly and don't subject yourself to huge frame disadvantages, and her aggressive grabbing is hurt by this, as well. You really need to outplay your opponent to get a good number of grabs with her. Her bthrow's KB is not stronger than her Fsmash.

Zelda is just good against aggressive playstyles, like those a fast faller would utilize. She's also great at comboing them. However, she is straight up awful against camping and defensive playstyles. As effective as her combos are against fast fallers they all outspeed her severely and give her a hard time when they don't just jump fearlessly into her (Usmash) range. Better idea, don't use a fast faller against her. There's really only three that fall into the best combos she's capable of, and there are plenty of characters better than her who don't fall into Usmash destruction. In other words, play smarter. I highly doubt you play Zeldas other than me who will abuse all that against you, and that's online of all places.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

What Ryoko said. Lrn2fightagainstZelda much?

I know that pretty much makes me sound like a *****, but you deserve it, Finns. And lrn2fightagainstzelda is pretty much tl;dr of what ryoko just said.


Also, about all those throws combos, that CAN and SHOULD be EASILY SDI'd.... SDI, son, SDI. down throw doesn't combo into anything with DI. up throw sends people too high to do anything. Fthrow is just meh. Bthrow is easily SDI'd so you live longer and so you don't get gimped.

 

[PKNintendo]

Uthrow-uair actually used to work on a lot of characters to sky KO at very low percents. Mario, Ness, Lucario just to name a few.

If you can't DI her bthrow, I don't know what to say. With proper DI the bthrow still sends quite high giving you more than enough wiggle room to recover, even as a fast faller. Her grab is always relatively difficult to land. Frame 11-12 is as slow as it gets for non-tether grabs. By comparison, almost all other non-tether grabs are 6-7 frames. She won't be shield grabbing much if you space your aerials properly and don't subject yourself to huge frame disadvantages, and her aggressive grabbing is hurt by this, as well. You really need to outplay your opponent to get a good number of grabs with her. Her bthrow's KB is not stronger than her Fsmash.

Zelda is just good against aggressive playstyles, like those a fast faller would utilize. She's also great at comboing them. However, she is straight up awful against camping and defensive playstyles. As effective as her combos are against fast fallers they all outspeed her severely and give her a hard time when they don't just jump fearlessly into her (Usmash) range. Better idea, don't use a fast faller against her. There's really only three that fall into the best combos she's capable of, and there are plenty of characters better than her who don't fall into Usmash destruction. In other words, play smarter. I highly doubt you play Zeldas other than me who will abuse all that against you, and that's online of all places.

No way!

*Goes to test*

 

[Alphatron]

do we really want dair>jc shine>wavedash>rinse and repeat like stuff back in? @_@ Cuz that's what making the gameplay even faster would do.

Making it faster would include wavedashing and automatic combos how?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

disregard this. alaphtron's right. I was just kinda biased against fox in melee.

 

[MK26]

Why is the CAM Data only two lines? And more importantly, how is two lines a CAM limit that prevents Olimar and Ivysaur from being able to grab pplz out of hitstun?

 

[Finns7]

Your prob the best zelda Ive fought but somethings still dont feel right, I kno bthrow isnt insta kill but you can edguard. Also brawl+ has tools making camping and playing defensive not that good.

SymphonicSage I know vbrawl and brawl+, Ive played countless snakes and a good portion of zeldas. Ryoko is just 2 good with his char and Im saying at that high level of play if a heavy/fastfaller played his zelda the matcup would be EZ and I dont want that in b+, you say pick another character but isnt brawl+ about being able to pick anychar and having a chance? Also Ive played excellent snakes who didnt even break the laws of life utilting me _________________________________ from here. This shows me one its not needed but if it was we could give him more to replace it, Shaving it off a little to me is just polishing up the game which was originally a party game not a competetive fighter.

 

[shanus]

Why is the CAM Data only two lines? And more importantly, how is two lines a CAM limit that prevents Olimar and Ivysaur from being able to grab pplz out of hitstun?

CAM now has no limit, its just all the CAM changes were made in the actual pacs.

Grabbing out of hitstun is only a change which works with changing .pacs as well, which would require a working ivysaur pac and an actual pikmin (the pikmin, not olimar) pac

 

[JCaesar]

What Ryoko said. Lrn2fightagainstZelda much?

I know that pretty much makes me sound like a *****, but you deserve it, Finns. And lrn2fightagainstzelda is pretty much tl;dr of what ryoko just said.


Also, about all those throws combos, that CAN and SHOULD be EASILY SDI'd.... SDI, son, SDI. down throw doesn't combo into anything with DI. up throw sends people too high to do anything. Fthrow is just meh. Bthrow is easily SDI'd so you live longer and so you don't get gimped.

Learn your Smash lingo son. You can't SDI throws. SDI only really helps you escape multihit moves and a few other situational things. Regular DI helps you escape combos and survive longer.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

>.> w/e. You got my point.

and I always thought that DI was with the analog stick and SDI with the c stick, but I don't think that that's right.

And btw, why does the first hit of toon link's dsmash hit away now?

 

[GameSystem]

You can SDI with either stick. I think what you are thinking about is double stick DI. Where you hold one direction on one stick for survival DI and you quarter circle the other one or w/e for SDI. One of them overrides it but can't remember which. JCaesar help me out .

 

[SymphonicSage12]

well, like what I do when I get hit upwards is, hold right on the analog stick, and then a tiny bit later hold down on the c-stick as well. O_o

 

[stingers]

for double stick DI, press towards the stage with the c stick ASAP and you will SDI every possible frame towards the stage, DI towards the corner with your stick so you can live as long as you can before being sent past the blast zone.

is my understanding of it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that zelda does better than most people say against defensive players. She has Dins, which is unpunishable if she is at the opposite side of the stage (unless they have a projectile, and in that case you can use platforms to your advantage since Dins can be controlled) and forces the other player to approach in some way. Also her UpB has so little endlag now that you can use it on the ground to gain distance safely.

 

[GameSystem]

Thanks Stingers.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

k thanks. anyways, what were we talking about before this DI stuff? oh yeah, zelda problems. >.>

and by later, I meant like consecutively, cuz I heard the pressing them at the EXACT same time makes it so the game only reads one of them.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

play if a heavy/fastfaller played his zelda the matcup would be EZ and I dont want that in b+, you say pick another character but isnt brawl+ about being able to pick anychar and having a chance?

Competitive fighters are never about that. The theoretical character you describe is a top tier, and if you refuse to learn other characters for bad or otherwise unfavorable matchups, then you'll never get far in any fighter.

If a heavy/fastfaller main as good as I was played my Zelda, they would camp me , play patiently, and make me work really hard if I want to win. It's not nearly as easy as you say because those characters all have working tools against Zelda.

 

[GameSystem]

Zelda is only good because of wifi combos.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I think that zelda does better than most people say against defensive players. She has Dins, which is unpunishable if she is at the opposite side of the stage (unless they have a projectile, and in that case you can use platforms to your advantage since Dins can be controlled) and forces the other player to approach in some way. Also her UpB has so little endlag now that you can use it on the ground to gain distance safely.

Ugh. Din's forces absolutely no approach because it's that easy to dodge and has very little variance in the detonation. You can literally just dodge Din's the whole time and not move if you are familiar with the projectile. Zelda loses most camping wars because rate of fire with Din's is comparatively infrequent, and she must devote all her control into Din's, leaving herself vulnerable the whole time with only Din's to protect her.

Up+B should not be used for inclose escapes. The standstill execution time is too much of a risk when you can just run and keep your options.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ugh. Din's forces absolutely no approach because it's that easy to dodge and has very little variance in the detonation. You can literally just dodge Din's the whole time and not move if you are familiar with the projectile. Zelda loses most camping wars because rate of fire with Din's is comparatively infrequent, and she must devote all her control into Din's, leaving herself vulnerable the whole time with only Din's to protect her.

Up+B should not be used for inclose escapes. The standstill execution time is too much of a risk when you can just run and keep your options.

Although you are correct about Dins now that I think about it, I have played Rion a lot (albeit online), and he uses UpB as an approach to good effect, it's surprisingly effective because of how little lag it has now.

Also I still fail to see how Lucas doesn't need a Zair but Zelda needs a better Backthrow and Falcon needs a better UpB.

 

[Finns7]

Its brawl its not that hard, I kno there are going to be counterpicks but I remember broomers stating 40/60 is what the goal for this project is, im just puting in my 2 cents. Zelda has some realllllly good matchups and some of her buffs took away some weaknesses that made them a little more balanced. GANONS gonna camp you? And still camping isnt 2 gud in plus. I wouldnt mind some of the **** zelda does if she had a better weakness than she cant approach, or falls to campers, when this is brawl+. Recovering was her low point but it wasnt so trashy that she couldnt do it successfully and needed a speed up.

Dins insnt a problem at all.

 

[GameSystem]

Matt, if you played offline, that would fail miserably. Input delay can't affect you then.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I like zelda's buffed backthrow. Although I think it might need to be toned down JUST a little.

Enough Zelda talk. Let's move on to the next topic.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Zelda's Up+B has still 20 frames of landing lag. Online, it feels like a lot less.

 

[GameSystem]

Ganon's utilt doesn't kill at 87% wtf. Melee it killed at like 30.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

about zelda's up b landing... 20 frames is enough for a smash attack (probably slightly charged, too). It' just a matter of knowing where she's gonna land.

Ganon's utilt kills way earlier than 87%. it kills at like 50% with good DI. that's the reason is takes 89 frames for the hitbox to come out.

 

[GameSystem]

Unless it has a weak hitbox or something, I don't know what happened. I hit them at edge of smashville, and they went straight up in the air and didn't die. They were 87% after the move so maybe I hit them at like 60 something. It should still kill earlier than that. I think we should just remove utilt and give him something else.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Its brawl its not that hard, I kno there are going to be counterpicks but I remember broomers stating 40/60 is what the goal for this project is, im just puting in my 2 cents. Zelda has some realllllly good matchups and some of her buffs took away some weaknesses that made them a little more balanced. GANONS gonna camp you? And still camping isnt 2 gud in plus. I wouldnt mind some of the **** zelda does if she had a better weakness than she cant approach, or falls to campers, when this is brawl+. Recovering was her low point but it wasnt so trashy that she couldnt do it successfully and needed a speed up.

Zelda's Up+B was absolutely trash in vBrawl, not even kidding about that. Faster characters can still punish her Up+B easily, which are likely those characters she combos to death herself.

Ganon just outranges her, which is a bigger advantage thank you think it might be considering most of Zelda's moves are awful in trades.

You cannot alter the combo game she has without altering the physics of those characters, or massively rehauling her moveset which in turn will make most of her moves ineffective against everyone else. Peach has that same thing going on.

Camping is still very good against characters who are quite vulnerable to it, such as Zelda. Olimar, TL, Falco are notorious campers and make Zelda's approach attempts hellish. Tell me examples of where camping or abusing range and defensive combat are ineffective.

 

[Mattnumbers]

That's one problem with Zelda, she is top tier online haha.

Really? 20 frames? I swear he could dash attack immediately after he appeared when I was playing him.

 

[Alphatron]

disregard this. alaphtron's right. I was just kinda biased against fox in melee.

Most people wern before MetaKnight was discovered. I personally think a speed up would be worth trying.

 

[Finns7]

Gamesystem I kno I encountered some **** like that too falcon was at 67 and didnt even come close O_o

20 frames, Does this include the hitbox?

With who Zelda? Where coming from 2 diff roads, my mains can struggle against campers but you can get in and once you get in you have options unlike in vbrawl where you just got cged. Idk dude I just dont believe that getting in is such a big weakness, And I understand you cant really remove combos or change too much.

But what I cant understand is how bthrow is needed for her to be viable.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I am also a current fan of Brawl+.

If we want to make it faster, I suggest we branch of said project into another testing section. Said testers can report back to use with videos, and see if it's still the same.

Unless it has a weak hitbox or something, I don't know what happened. I hit them at edge of smashville, and they went straight up in the air and didn't die. They were 87% after the move so maybe I hit them at like 60 something. It should still kill earlier than that. I think we should just remove utilt and give him something else.

WTF? NO!! His utilt is fine as it is. it's a good mindgame now, it's classic from melee. seriously.

 

[GameSystem]

@finnz: I did it on falco lol. Maybe the angle sucks?

@symphonic: I know it's a good mindgame now. I canceled utilt into utilt into utilt for mini stutter steps near the edge of the stage to scare them from recovering right. I actually landed it and they didn't die. That made me the most sad.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

That's one problem with Zelda, she is top tier online haha.

Really? 20 frames? I swear he could dash attack immediately after he appeared when I was playing him.

epic typos r epci

Also, I guess I would be for testing a speedup of gameplay.

 

[Rion]

Although you are correct about Dins now that I think about it, I have played Rion a lot (albeit online), and he uses UpB as an approach to good effect, it's surprisingly effective because of how little lag it has now.

Also I still fail to see how Lucas doesn't need a Zair but Zelda needs a better Backthrow and Falcon needs a better UpB.

Oh, someone actually mentioned me. :x

Honestly, I really, really shouldn't be using UpB as an approach lol. It's a bad habit that I should break out of.

It does look rather funny though when it does work. ;x You'd be surprised how many people get annoyed by the exit hitbox. Even more so if they get killed by it haha.

I'm sure Ryoko can tell you a few of my UpB mishaps when I played against him.

"Was it worth it?" *gets ******

 

[Mattnumbers]

epic typos r epci

Also, I guess I would be for testing a speedup of gameplay.

I was saying "he" as in Rion using Zelda, not Zelda

 

[GameSystem]

If Zelda can increase her bust size, change her eye and hair color, and change her height, I'm sure she can be a man if she wants to be.