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[stingers]

how is taking away 2 jumps too much of a nerf

 

[WheelOfFish]

no character was ever considered overpowered in melee. it is not brawl where the balance is ****. okay.

*headdesk*

Melee had balance issues. Brawl is just worse.

 

[Demacrez]

How is taking away 2 jumps nerfing Meta's game? If I recall correctly, he's not that good with combos that would consist of more than two jumps.

I mean, lets lay down all his aerail moves:
5 jumps
Gliding
Shuttle Loop
Drill (Not to mention it allows an extra vertical boost at the end)

So how, in all, does taking away two jumps hurt his game?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

how is taking away 2 jumps too much of a nerf

you would be ripping a part of mk's soul out
like taking falcos lasers
or taking away Jigglypuff's floatyness
only a few characters have multiple jumps and that is part of who mk is

 

[PKNintendo]

Less jumps=Not as fun=Casual MK's leave.

Plus it's unnecessary. I hate MK more than ANYTHING but taking his jumps is to much.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

i think making him a bit lighter and weaker damage wise would help
maybe a few minor adjustments
i used to use mk alot in vBawl so i do have experience with him

 

[stingers]

you would be ripping a part of mk's soul out
like taking falcos lasers
or taking away Jigglypuff's floatyness
only a few characters have multiple jumps and that is part of who mk is

he'll still have multiple jumps you know

making mk lighter and weaker is what we've been doing. it's just further nerfing a weakness, all his broken *** strengths are still there. take away jumps and one of them goes away. fix dthrow and another one goes away. fix up b, there's another one. oh boy we're making progress

 

[weinzey]

i think making him a bit lighter and weaker damage wise would help

that would be a rather big nerf to his game. taking away 2 of his jumps however, only makes him less safe/e-z in certain situations without limiting him. in other words, its the slightest nerf i could imagine, still it makes mk less "untouchable", if u know what i mean.

@stingers: iirc dthrow is getting fixed in the near future. what would u like to change about upb? (that goes a little too far imo)
btw, love ur sig

 

[Plum]

There is so much that can be done with MK before taking away a number of jumps ever becomes a necessity. Frankly, taking away any of his jumps shouldn't even be a consideration; like GHNeko says there has to be a line drawn somewhere. 6 jumps is a character trait that MK shares with a few other characters, and like all those who share the multiple jump trait (whether its as many as him, or as few as Charizard) they should stay exactly like that.

His killing power is already practically nonexistent with the exception of Fsmash but good luck landing that against competent players regularly. His safe options and gimping power keep him among the best, if not the best (more likely he is still the best considering how safe his options are at all times), and that is what should be worked on instead of taking jumps away. And let's be honest, MK is still going to do everything he does now with 4 jumps.

The WBR has already admitted that the Dthrow nerf kinda backfired, while limiting tech chasing it made gimping even easier for him. None of his other throws really offer anything unless you don't DI at all, so once a proper Dthrow fix is put into a nightly he won't really gain anything from grabs outside of damage.

You could then target his safe options. Uair naturally combos into itself, is ungodly fast, and arcs around him making a very safe move. I don't want to say go as far as to slow it down, but if it comes to that then it should be tested. A better option may be to just increase the BKB of the move so it only links together at very low percents, and lower KBG to prevent it from killing earlier. We shouldn't make the move useless, so allowing to link at very low percents keeps its current use but lessens the potency. Slowing it down would remove the "safety" of the move, so may be a just nerf but again, I don't want to go there unless absolutely needed.

Dair is another notable move because it is literally the perfect gimp move. The maximum range the move hits at semispikes. Combined with his jumps and priority it is the best gimp move in the game. Its combination of speed, range, priority, and the semispike make it a step above other gimp moves. Taking away speed, range and priority take away what make Meta Knight who he is and should be avoided if possible. That leaves the angle it hits at. Instead of semispiking it could hit them more horizontally, maybe it should go as far as to hit them horizontally upwards. It would stop the move from instantly ****** recoveries like DK and Bowser, but it would still obviously be potent considering it at least hits the opponent back from the ledge. MK would have to continue his pursuit after hitting with Dair, which I admit isn't a very daunting task for him at all but it at least gives the opponent more of a chance then the instant gimp the current Dair is.

Dtilt was slowed to hit on frame 6 instead of frame 3. It has incredible range, and it still pressures well, though now it isn't quite as ridiculous . However he does still have another freakishly good spacing tool, Ftilt. It naturally combos into itself, and the third hit has more range than Marth's entire moveset (even beating out Fsmash). My proposal here would be to have the second hit send you into the ground much like Snake's first hit Ftilt. I'm sure you could tweak the move so the third hit only hits on a missed tech. You could probably even stop him from using the second hit for techchasing if you really wanted to. Give the second hit heavy cooldown, but IASA frames that only allow him to cancel the second hit cooldown into the third hit. Naturally the second hit would be too slow to just chase right after it hits, and he wouldn't be able to cancel it into a connecting third hit because you tech away. If he wants to use the third hit to effectively space he has to time the move so only the third hit connects, much like how Sheik would have to space her Fsmash for the second hit in Melee/vBrawl.

We can even remove the autocanceling on glide attack if you want to go even further. Give the move actual endlag so he can't just shuttleloop and cancel it with glide attack for zero lag.

Point is, there is a LOT that can be done to MK before doing something stupid like removing jumps.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

that would be a rather big nerf to his game.

fail, i dont think you know what your talking about, or what IM talking about

taking away 2 of his jumps however, only makes him less safe/e-z in certain situations without limiting him. in other words, its the slightest nerf i could imagine, still it makes mk less "untouchable", if u know what i mean.

i really think you should stop talking because you dont know waht a slight nerf is in any way shape or form.

i shouldnt even have to explain my reasoning(common sence) and therefore i wont

 

[FrozenHobo]

fail, i dont think you know what your talking about, or what IM talking about



i really think you should stop talking because you dont know waht a slight nerf is in any way shape or form.

i shouldnt even have to explain my reasoning(common sence) and therefore i wont

er, you really haven't made any arguments yet. you've only really said that you think it would be bad and hurt his game, but not HOW it would hurt his game. it might be obvious to you, but it doesn't help us when we can't read your mind.

its unfair to put him down when he's at least making arguments, valid or no, and you have yet to state a reason for your opposition to the proposed nerf.

 

[weinzey]

what i wanted to say (maybe i want clear enough) was that decreasing his weight goes in the same directions as nerfing his kill options (just takes the other way). if he gets killed earlier and kills later u basically nerfed the same thing twice (at least indirectly) and that would hurt mk a lot imo.

@plum: u said urself, there's nothing u can think of that mk wouldnt be able with 2 jumps less, which i agree with. my point is, the mk player has to be more aware of what he does and mk isnt as forgiving towards mistakes as he is now (especially offstage).
also, it would be possible to gimp mk without spiking him at 100%+ (so he cant meteaor cancel before he's dead, because then he'll definetely make it back).

if removing jumps is a line the wbr doesnt want to cross (which i can understand), that's a whole other topic and doesnt void my point that it would be one way to nerf mk without destroying him; and having more options is never bad (mk knows that)

btw, i'd like some feedback on my mushroomy kingdom suggestions.


EDIT: i wouldn't call everything mk has a character trait, because then, being op would also be one of them

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

er, you really haven't made any arguments yet. you've only really said that you think it would be bad and hurt his game, but not HOW it would hurt his game. it might be obvious to you, but it doesn't help us when we can't read your mind.

its unfair to put him down when he's at least making arguments, valid or no, and you have yet to state a reason for your opposition to the proposed nerf.

i was just kidding, lets take away his TP, and jumps since they are unique to only him
and they are the solutions to our problems and after all. theyre what we really should be takig away from him. its the only way to nerf him~

i dont really understand why you think we should do all that to him in the first place
its just like when ppl wanted falco's shdl gone
his game revolves around it and itwould be too extreme to remove or change that much

 

[GHNeko]

I'd rather get MK1-2 working before going back to MK1-1.

But maybe that's just bias speaking.

 

[weinzey]

i'd like having the mk1-2 change more too, but wouldnt editing mk1-1 be a lot easier? we dont have to make it legal right away and can just start testing

 

[FrozenHobo]

i was just kidding, lets take away his TP, and jumps since they are unique to only him
and they are the solutions to our problems and after all. theyre what we really should be takig away from him. its the only way to nerf him~

i dont really understand why you think we should do all that to him in the first place
its just like when ppl wanted falco's shdl gone
his game revolves around it and itwould be too extreme to remove or change that much

lets just look at what his jumps are used for:

comboing
recovering
taking people offstage to die


for comboing, as Plum said, he doesn't exactly need every single one of his jumps to do that. depending on the direction they DI you attacks, MK can follow up very quickly with an aerial attack to keep the chain going. very rarely, however, will you see him use every jump to keep that chain going unless its to take a person off the side.

as far as recovering goes, he has no problems with it. everyone of his b moves can recover (pretty sure whorenado can still recover horizontally if you mash b), he has multiple jumps, and a glide after those. other characters, such as jigglypuff, kirby, D3, Charizard, and Pit who also have multi jumps are limited in one way or another. D3 and Charizard, for instance, have their gravity working against them, so for every jump they do after the first 2 they get dragged down even more. Jigglypuff has no other recovery besides her jumps. rollout only helps with recovering when you're above the stage already and pound can only help horizontally so much as the end of the attack causes you to drop slightly. For Pit even with his multiple jumps and a glide, his up b can still be stopped by a single attack. Kirby has a decent recovery, but after his jumps are gone, unlike MK, he has no glide and one b option to recover (which makes him drop like a rock if he misses the stage).

MK has multiple safe recovery options, incredibly great gimping moves inside of only 4 of his jumps, and is the best gimper in the game.

you say it will ruin him as a character, but in what way? his recovery will get worse? he can't combo as well anymore? what? what is it specifically that will destroy him as a godly character that you cannot BEAR to part with?

 

[camelot]

a lot of stuff

What do you really think should be done to MK, then? Change the angle of d-air, d-throw and/or shuttle loop to not be such nasty gimp moves? (This is what people were talking about, anyway)

Honestly, I can't really say much about what should happen to MK, I don't have enough experience with him.

 

[stingers]

things like giving MK lag on his glide attack dont fix anything. its a nerf for the sake of nerfing him. you're not fixing his problems.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

lets just look at what his jumps are used for:

comboing
recovering
taking people offstage to die


for comboing, as Plum said, he doesn't exactly need every single one of his jumps to do that. depending on the direction they DI you attacks, MK can follow up very quickly with an aerial attack to keep the chain going. very rarely, however, will you see him use every jump to keep that chain going unless its to take a person off the side.

as far as recovering goes, he has no problems with it. everyone of his b moves can recover (pretty sure whorenado can still recover horizontally if you mash b), he has multiple jumps, and a glide after those. other characters, such as jigglypuff, kirby, D3, Charizard, and Pit who also have multi jumps are limited in one way or another. D3 and Charizard, for instance, have their gravity working against them, so for every jump they do after the first 2 they get dragged down even more. Jigglypuff has no other recovery besides her jumps. rollout only helps with recovering when you're above the stage already and pound can only help horizontally so much as the end of the attack causes you to drop slightly. For Pit even with his multiple jumps and a glide, his up b can still be stopped by a single attack. Kirby has a decent recovery, but after his jumps are gone, unlike MK, he has no glide and one b option to recover (which makes him drop like a rock if he misses the stage).

MK has multiple safe recovery options, incredibly great gimping moves inside of only 4 of his jumps, and is the best gimper in the game.

you say it will ruin him as a character, but in what way? his recovery will get worse? he can't combo as well anymore? what? what is it specifically that will destroy him as a godly character that you cannot BEAR to part with?

lmao
i never said it would destroy him XD
i dont know where or who you got that from
hearing things? or am i forgetting what i have been talking about
please refresh my memory of a time when i said it would annihilate him

and in your understanding of mk he only uses jumps for
comboing
recovering
taking people offstage to die
and by taking 1/3 of his jumps away, you would be nerfing all 3 catagories similtaniously

and even tho it is still possible to do all that, you would be nerfing it alot and lessening his ability significantly


he's not a godly character and there are other ways to nerf him
with your all knowing powerful mind, u should be able to come up with other ideas no sweat

 

[Alphatron]

that would be a rather big nerf to his game. taking away 2 of his jumps however, only makes him less safe/e-z in certain situations without limiting him.

Taking away his jumps leads to weakened gimping ability, which in fact DOES nerf his game. Making him lighter and weaker would be a crap nerf to his game for a few reasons.

Knockback is proportional to damage. Less damage=more combos for MK. Making him lighter has already been done. Doing it more won't matter unless he gets killed at percents that Game & Watch and Jigglypuff do.

Taking away his jumps limits his recovery and gimping ability.

 

[stingers]

yeah making him lighter doesnt solve ****.

taking away 2 jumps is a good nerf
making dthrow like falco's from melee is IMO a good nerf as well.
making dair send straight up or something (like ivysaurs) works well. that way his gimping game wont be so ****ing ********.
decrease the KB on the aerial up-b as well, that thing kills at like 40.

and then you're good.

he might be a bit too bad then, but just nerf him down to reasonable levels and then we'll start over again.

 

[FrozenHobo]

you would be ripping a part of mk's soul out
like taking falcos lasers
or taking away Jigglypuff's floatyness
only a few characters have multiple jumps and that is part of who mk is

lmao
i never said it would destroy him XD
i dont know where or who you got that from
hearing things? or am i forgetting what i have been talking about
please refresh my memory of a time when i said it would annihilate him

>_>

insert foot in mouth... now.

and in your understanding of mk he only uses jumps for
comboing
recovering
taking people offstage to die
and by taking 1/3 of his jumps away, you would be nerfing all 3 catagories similtaniously

and even tho it is still possible to do all that, you would be nerfing it alot and lessening his ability significantly

thats kind of the point. give him real nerf that actually effect his game rather than hundreds of pointless nerfs that do nothing.

he's not a godly character and there are other ways to nerf him
with your all knowing powerful mind, u should be able to come up with other ideas no sweat

sarcasm aside, i think you're misunderestimating how good of a character he still is. just because he isn't dominating tourneys doesn't mean anything if nobody is using him. he can still gimp, he can still camp, and he can still stay alive a lot longer than most characters.

yes, there are other ways of nerfing him, but none would have enough impact to actually balance him enough with the rest of the cast.

 

[Revven]

decrease the KB on the aerial up-b as well, that thing kills at like 40.

It was already nerfed a long time ago, it's why I can survive Shuttle Loop with DK at like 180%...

 

[GHNeko]

I still say go for set KB instead. :V

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

insert foot in mouth... now.

you made me lol

"you would be ripping a part of mk's soul out
only a few characters have multiple jumps and that is part of who mk is"

if you think taking a part of his soul = killing him
then i feel sorry for you

anyway!~ lets hear some of your other ideas, your arguments arent groundbreaking and im pretty sure wont pull through unless there is almsot nothing left to do about him

i like a few of stinger's non jump related ideas

 

[cAm8ooo]

decrease the KB on the aerial up-b as well, that thing kills at like 40.

I hope that's extreme exaggeration.

EDIT: Dang. Extreme ninja. I should refresh the page more.

 

[Yingyay]

Why are we still trying to **** metaknight? Leave him alone already.

 

[FrozenHobo]

you made me lol

"you would be ripping a part of mk's soul out
only a few characters have multiple jumps and that is part of who mk is"

if you think taking a part of his soul = killing him
then i feel sorry for you

that has got to be the weakest defense i have ever heard.

anyway!~ lets hear some of your other ideas, your arguments arent groundbreaking and im pretty sure wont pull through unless there is almsot nothing left to do about him

i like a few of stinger's non jump related ideas

i think you miss understood my entire reason for going after you, specifically. you have yet to state any argument for you opinions. its not a matter of whether the jump nerf gets in or not, its that you never gave me an argument to critique (and still haven't). i have yet to see you validate any of your opinions with anything more than a "well it should be obvious" or "well you're just being stupid". these are not ways to coerce people to your side. its easy to put down other people's arguments when you have none of your own.

so tell me this, why should i tell you my ideas when all you're doing is setting me up so you can nitpick them and insult me? quid pro quo. you give me valid arguments for not nerfing MK and i'll tell you my ideas, hows that sound?

 

[MK26]

I still say go for set KB instead. :V

I still say just remove the whole hitbox on that thing.

But set KB sounds good.

 

[stingers]

It was already nerfed a long time ago, it's why I can survive Shuttle Loop with DK at like 180%...

um

aerial KB

not grounded KB

the aerial one still gimps like crazy...

 

[zxeon]

How about hardly any knockback at all? Make it flinch or pop you up like Sheiks Ftilt. The move is too good at gimping even if it doesn't KO anymore.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

that has got to be the weakest defense i have ever heard.

your reference was pretty weak to begin with, you took somthing subtle and made it out to be big (taking out part of his soul suddenly meant destroying him as a character and ruining all he stood for?)

i think you miss understood my entire reason for going after you, specifically. you have yet to state any argument for you opinions. its not a matter of whether the jump nerf gets in or not, its that you never gave me an argument to critique (and still haven't). i have yet to see you validate any of your opinions with anything more than a "well it should be obvious" or "well you're just being stupid". these are not ways to coerce people to your side. its easy to put down other people's arguments when you have none of your own.

you do know what an argument is right?
my argument:

as ive argued before, the nerd you wanted to impliment is too BIG of a nerf and would be less effective in balancing the game than you think
by taking 1/3 of his jumps away, he now has 2+ fewer moves in combos wich in some cases is enough to win a match

recovery wouldnt be taht badly nefed but still slightly

and can only carry ppl offstage 2/3 waht he used to be able to, thats alot

this is too much to do to a character

i beleive we should look into other more subtle ideas than suddenly jumping to potentially extreme contclusions

so tell me this, why should i tell you my ideas when all you're doing is setting me up so you can nitpick them and insult me? quid pro quo. you give me valid arguments for not nerfing MK and i'll tell you my ideas, hows that sound?

just stop crying

i do not need to give you ideas, other ppl have given theirs and im content with waht they have said
it would be stupid to repeat whats already been stated before.

i do not need to argue for my posts beacuse others have had similar ideas as me and supported them clearly

example: look back and reread plum's essay

dont look to me for the knowlege of every aspect and how to defend it and how to shoot down your idea

i dont know everything there is to know about everything you want
and i dont know why you think it will help to target me

 

[Revven]

um

aerial KB

not grounded KB

the aerial one still gimps like crazy...

lol you're wrong.

I just checked MK's .PAC, compared it to the original and here are the stats:

Original: BKB = 5A (90) KBG = 3C (60)
Brawl+: BKB = 37 (55) KBG = 53 (83)

It's nerfed already dude, and was hit hard. The GROUND one is what hasn't been touched (which it should be... but w/e).

 

[GHNeko]

um

aerial KB

not grounded KB

the aerial one still gimps like crazy...

Aerial KB was reduced too IIRC.

ANd the reason why it gimps is due to positional and the horizontal angle.

A raised angle would help solve that and set KB would perma tackle the KB problem.

 

[stingers]

Aerial KB was reduced too IIRC.

ANd the reason why it gimps is due to positional and the horizontal angle.

A raised angle would help solve that and set KB would perma tackle the KB problem.

sounds like a good idea to me

 

[kr3wman]

i do not need to argue for my posts beacuse others have had similar ideas as me and supported them clearly

...

your reference was pretty weak to begin with, you took somthing subtle and made it out to be big (taking out part of his soul suddenly meant destroying him as a character and ruining all he stood for?)

you do know what an argument is right?
my argument:

as ive argued before, the nerd you wanted to impliment is too BIG of a nerf and would be less effective in balancing the game than you think
by taking 1/3 of his jumps away, he now has 2+ fewer moves in combos wich in some cases is enough to win a match

recovery wouldnt be taht badly nefed but still slightly

and can only carry ppl offstage 2/3 waht he used to be able to, thats alot

this is too much to do to a character

i beleive we should look into other more subtle ideas than suddenly jumping to potentially extreme contclusions

Then why did you do it in the very post you said you wouldn't?

Man... It's bad when you can't understand other people's posts, but dayuuuuuum son.

 

[FrozenHobo]

your reference was pretty weak to begin with, you took somthing subtle and made it out to be big (taking out part of his soul suddenly meant destroying him as a character and ruining all he stood for?)

pretty sure you can ask anyone and they would agree that saying something removes a character's soul = completely ruining the character. seriously, go ask anybody.

you do know what an argument is right?
my argument:

as ive argued before, the nerf you wanted to impliment is too BIG of a nerf and would be less effective in balancing the game than you think
by taking 1/3 of his jumps away, he now has 2+ fewer moves in combos wich in some cases is enough to win a match

recovery wouldnt be taht badly nefed but still slightly

and can only carry ppl offstage 2/3 waht he used to be able to, thats alot

this is too much to do to a character

he can already carry characters out a really long way. shorting that distance slightly isn't going to make him any worse. same with how far he can recover from now.

taking away 1/3 of his jumps still leaves him with more than most of the cast. 2+ fewer moves (which is very unlikely as his attacks can come out incredibly fast) would not = instant match loss. in no circumstance can i think of an instance where being able to do an extra fair with MK would mean the difference between me winning or losing the game unless the other person was off the side and i was gimping them. and even then, as MK i could make it back to the stage before the other person, land, and gimp them all over again.

as it stands he has just under marth's range in his attacks with a better recovery system than practically everyone.

just stop crying

k

i do not need to give you ideas, other ppl have given theirs and im content with waht they have said
it would be stupid to repeat whats already been stated before.

i do not need to argue for my posts beacuse others have had similar ideas as me and supported them clearly

example: look back and reread plum's essay

dont look to me for the knowlege of every aspect and how to defend it and how to shoot down your idea

i dont know everything there is to know about everything you want
and i dont know why you tink it will help to target me

so, what you're saying is you have no opinions of your own, just the wherewithal to insult people who do. gottchya.

 

[JCaesar]

Let's just make MK unselectable so everyone will stfu already.

 

[GHNeko]

I actually use MK as a secondary kthx.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

stuff

you dont understand what ive said so i guess thats how its gonna stay

i'll end with this:

if your ideas actually make it through the test of time and were what we needed all along
then you've won

but i guess if u look at it that way then if they dont get put in...
i won without even having to make a "clear" or "valid" arguiment

i hope all ur efforts wont be wasted