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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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Clai

Smash Lord
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Where men are born and champions are raised
I just dont understand why Samus >> Bowser, she nearly cannot kill him, because she was too nerfed. I better think Bowser > Samus.
I can answer this one. Bowser is indeed much harder to kill with Samus than the other way, but Samus just has far, far, far better spacing spacing tools and damage rackers than Bowser has. Both characters have excellent Up+B's out of shield. Bowser has the fire and Samus has a quick and effective ftilt. However, Samus just annaihiliates Boozer offstage (A largely horizontal recovery plus Samus' nice sweeping d-air and Bowser is just going to get spiked for dinner), and Bowser has absolutely nothing against Samus' z-air. He's just too big and has nothing that can approach quickly and catch her off-guard.

Samus is definately >> Bowser. No question.
 

A1lion835

Smash Champion
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Lurking the Kirby Social thread with my rock buds.
Instead of giving us half-baked material that will probably be totally changed anyway, he should have just kept it to himself until it was completely finished. He even forgot a character, so obviously not a lot of work went into it.

You can enjoy your half-finished list if you'd like, but I myself would rather see a totally fleshed out and completed project. JUST SAYIN'.
Look, if you want a totally fleshed out and completed project, we need people to do this. This way, everyone on smashboards can give their opinion as to what it should be like, as apposed to just a guy and his friends. And just because he forgot a character doesn't mean he didn't put any work into it. If you hate this list so much, go make your own, and when you forget a character, we can go kill your image, or if you make a small mistake (which is bound to happen) we can all say that you put no work into it at all, while you actually spent weeks perfecting this and hours of tedious testing. Break a leg.
 

Nami-Tsuki

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
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Ness and Lucas are actually about even...

My friend and I main them and we have epic battles all the time.

Lucas usually comes out on top, but that might be because I can avoid Ness's dreadfully strong aerials long enough to kill him.

Also, it makes me depressed how top-tier characters have all check marks while the low-tiers have X's straight across.

Tiers R 4 queers T_T Just yesterday, my "low-tier" Lucas beat a "top-tier" Falco. That match was intense, but I ended up landing a finishing blow before him. He was the one who actually won the tournament, but after that I beat him twice.

ANYWAY, your list was interesting to look at. Nice job.
 

Blackbelt

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
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Ness and Lucas are actually about even...

My friend and I main them and we have epic battles all the time.

Lucas usually comes out on top, but that might be because I can avoid Ness's dreadfully strong aerials long enough to kill him.

Also, it makes me depressed how top-tier characters have all check marks while the low-tiers have X's straight across.

Tiers R 4 queers T_T Just yesterday, my "low-tier" Lucas beat a "top-tier" Falco. That match was intense, but I ended up landing a finishing blow before him. He was the one who actually won the tournament, but after that I beat him twice.

ANYWAY, your list was interesting to look at. Nice job.
Sorry, but Ness beats Lucas, and both the Ness and Lucas board agree with this.


Try again later.



Oh, and Lucas beats Fox and goes even with Falco.
 

Blackbelt

Smash Lord
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The Pokemon Trainer board puts the Snake vs PT matchup as neutral overall.


Hence, PT is not a counter.



/enddiscussion
 

Steeler

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squirtle water gun ****s with everything snake does at long range

it's ****ing hilarious lol. blow grenades back at him, hold his snakedash in place, and detonate his mines or even push him into his own mines. up close stupid hitboxes are tough to get around though.

ivysaur's hitboxes and razor leaf also annoy snake. bair spacing is too good. dodge a tilt and snake gets bullet seeded.

idk if its a counter but its definitely not a bad matchup for pt.

afro are you saying bowser should have advantage or squirtle?
 

IvanEva

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
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557
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Seems impossible to determine without a ton of people looking at this.

Marth is definitely wrong.
Huh!? That's a contradiction. How can you know that Marth's list is definitely wrong without having had a ton of people look at it (nobody talks about the Marth ones).

1. squirtle water gun ****s with everything snake does at long range

2, it's ****ing hilarious lol. blow grenades back at him, hold his snakedash in place, and detonate his mines or even push him into his own mines. up close stupid hitboxes are tough to get around though.

3. ivysaur's hitboxes and razor leaf also annoy snake. bair spacing is too good. dodge a tilt and snake gets bullet seeded.

4. idk if its a counter but its definitely not a bad matchup for pt.

5. afro are you saying bowser should have advantage or squirtle?
1. Not really. A thrown grenade is really fast, as is just about everything else Snake has. I can't see water gun possibly being used consistently against any Snake. More than that, Squirtle gains nothing in the exchange.

2. What happens after your water gun runs out? Snake dashes in and kills you. :laugh:

3. Ivysaur annoys Snake. Snake kills Ivy. Forward tilt and snake-dash can and will beat you silly. Ivy's back air has nothing on Snake's approaches. Missing with bullet seed isn't fun against Snake.

4. Yes it is. Squirtle's got a funny up tilt thing going for him and all three have some good things going for them when Snake's in the air but he's still Snake. He will beat you senseless and then back air you off the ledge.

5. Yes, which way are you headed? Squirtle's got a good beatdown/combo game against Bowser but Bowser's up-b and forward tilt are easy to land against the physical-only squirtle.
Oh, and Lucas beats Fox and goes even with Falco.
I agree with the first but not with the second.

1. Also, it makes me depressed how top-tier characters have all check marks while the low-tiers have X's straight across.

2. Tiers R 4 queers T_T Just yesterday, my "low-tier" Lucas beat a "top-tier" Falco. That match was intense, but I ended up landing a finishing blow before him. He was the one who actually won the tournament, but after that I beat him twice.

3. ANYWAY, your list was interesting to look at. Nice job.
1. Which is what makes the former high tier and the latter low tier. :psycho:

2. Being lower tier doesn't mean you can't win.

3. Thank you. :)

I disagree with Ike>Bowser I think it's Ike = Bowser
Bowser has a good range in the air and his fire and B up is hard to escape.
Ike has better range and spacing options in the air. Ike shouldn't really be overlapping you ever so Bowser's up-B isn't too important here. Fire can be a pain but Aether happily hits Bowser's bottom when he tries using it to edgeguard (it's still pretty good against Ike overall though).

I found it hard to read Lucario's without accidentaly reading someone elses.
Yeah, I'm (at a complete snail's pace...) working on that...
 

Qckpy01

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 14, 2008
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109
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SoCal
The marth boards have the marth vs dk match-up as neutral. Didn't check the DK boards but it sure does seem even.
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
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Mar 19, 2008
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"Spamming" against Metaknight is like using those shuriken and throwing knives in Naruto. Just plain doesn't work. :(
unless your somehow spamming fully charged charge shots from samus every half second, i can't see it working. and even then....if MK got past that he's commence the ****, since samus sucks balls.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Is this based on the character board specific match up thread, or IvanEva's opinion?
That's what I've been thinking. The guy does what he thinks is right.

Okay.. so he puts Link neutral against Wario and Ice Climbers.

Yeah, Ivan, you know "a lot".
 

Jman115

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
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maine


This is a chart representing how I feel, through experience and observations, specific match-ups go within Brawl. If you disagree with any, please post why so that I may hopefully learn something. On an irrelevant note, Captain Marvel will probably have the advantage against Sonia.

// Latest changes to chart (Nov 10th):
Peach > Wario
Diddy = Peach
Ike < Peach
Peach >> Olimar
Diddy < Marth
I see the update, but the chart is gone...:(
 

DanGR

BRoomer
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Apr 10, 2008
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6,860
My beefs with Oli's matchups:
Olimar is at least = to DK. It's at disadvantage right now. The Olimars in the Oli boards think it's advantaged Oli. I think it's around neutral-slight advantage, and the DKs are finishing up Olimar in their matchup thread. Their general concensus is that it's advantaged Oli. DK just can't handle Olimar's combo ability. If Olimar does it correctly, the DK will have great difficulty getting near Olimar in the first place.

Olimar ***** Link and Samus. Olimar>>Link and Samus. These are self-explanatory and agreed by both boards if that means anything to yah.

Olimar loses to Luigi. Luigi's nair>jab is faster than Olimar's shieldgrab. He's also too difficult to combo because of his great attack speed. Luigi's downb messes up Olimar's shieldgrab as well and shuts down everything but pivotgrabs.

and I still think Olimar destroys Zelda, but w/e.

yup. Just think about them if anything.
 

Steeler

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1. Not really. A thrown grenade is really fast, as is just about everything else Snake has. I can't see water gun possibly being used consistently against any Snake. More than that, Squirtle gains nothing in the exchange.
Snake then has to deal with a grenade being blown back in his face. If Snake is just THROWING the grenades, then Squirtle can easily dodge them. If the Snake likes to set grenade traps and leave them sitting around, then Squirtle can Water Gun and totally ruin that strategy. Water Gun isn't really for Snakes that just chuck grenades out a lot.

I don't think you realize that if Snake attempts to do ANY kind of tactic with grenades, Squirtle will simply push them back toward Snake. Simple grenade tossing is not a problem for someone as small and nimble as Squirtle.

And again, mines are pretty much useless against Squirtle. Not that they are that good anyway.

2. What happens after your water gun runs out? Snake dashes in and kills you. :laugh:
Water Gun actually doesn't take that long to charge. If Snake is getting his snakedash stalled, then he's vulnerable to a quick hydrosmash or grab. Snakedashing itself is not hard to counter if the player has good reflexes. All three Pokemon have great grabs. Squirtle can just jump and get out of the way. Ivy and Zard have attacks with great range that'll interrupt the mortarslide.

3. Ivysaur annoys Snake. Snake kills Ivy. Forward tilt and snake-dash can and will beat you silly. Ivy's back air has nothing on Snake's approaches. Missing with bullet seed isn't fun against Snake.
what "Snake approach" are you referring to? bair completely outranges the snakedash. a grab with good timing will get ahold of Snake and out of the way of the mortar because Ivy has great grab range. oh and razor leaf just stops the snakedash. in addition, razor leaf cuts through Snake and can detonate grenades like ROB's laser. Snake approaching an Ivysaur isn't a walk in the park.

all Ivysaur has to do is dodge one of Snake's close attacks and Bullet Seed immediately after to do a lot of damage.

4. Yes it is. Squirtle's got a funny up tilt thing going for him and all three have some good things going for them when Snake's in the air but he's still Snake. He will beat you senseless and then back air you off the ledge.
oh, so just because he's Snake he'll destroy Pokemon Trainer? this reeks of the bias present in your chart.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
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Dang, look like this took a lot of work. You did a good job.
Don't compliment him. It's horribly opinionated. If HE thinks a matchup is one way, that's how it's going to be.

That's ok, I'm a big boy. I can take it. ;)

I have been neglecting this chart in lieu of working on other, generally non-smash related, projects. I deserve some scorn for that, for sure. I no longer have the time (or the desire) to look through all the threads in any sort of regular fashion anymore.

DanGR certainly deserves a lot of praise for his chart - he didn't like mine or my method so he set out and made his own using an intelligent method of forgoing his direct opinion and opting to only take his entries from a character's match-up thread. Good stuff and I'm in full support of it.

That being said, I'm sticking with mine for now and I prefer it over a communal chart for several reasons. Primarily, this chart is now just a way for me to jot down how I personally view the match-ups. Yes, it's how *I* view them. Me, an old geezer from Ottawa who has thus far only gone to one large-scale tournament (and I didn't even make it out of pools :(). How then can this chart possibly be "correct"? Why would a non-'notable smasher' just stick to his guns and change things only when he's convinced, not when people make lots of noise about it? The answer is cynicism.

There are certain few match-ups where everybody agrees on how it goes. The vast majority, however, have at least a few detractors (and many are basically toss ups). I have seen some match-up threads where I disagree with things so much that I barely ever look at it again (there's also a time thing but apart from that...). I have seen small-scale panics on these boards whenever some new gimmick or 'advanced technique' has been discovered. I've realized that the most vocal and post-happy players aren't always the best source for information and that in the end, most match-ups come down to experience + opinion.

Is there room for two charts? Is there any point? In my opinion, no. When Dan's chart is 90% finished or so (and I will hopefully have the full skeleton for my little Flash project ready by then) I'll happily retire this chart. It bugs me to no end that I haven't found a job in my field yet (Game Development - Ottawa isn't exactly bursting with jobs for that...) and thus I haven't had the funds to run around attending tournaments. At the same time, I've also taken up other projects and the like which have taken up my focus (which is a poor excuse though...).

Until Dan's chart is complete, I believe that this chart should be good enough for players to take a quick glance and see how characters relatively stack up against each other... in MY eyes at least. ;)

Irrelevant note: Go play Mother 3. Now.
He has gone to 1 major tournament, so his experience in the ACTUAL METAGAME is abysmally small. This entire chart is based on his opinion. Now, opinions are based off of experience, and if his experience is minute, then his opinion will not be all that reliable. To top it off, he's not going to change it even if a good argument is presented, or two character boards disagree.

There are many instances of 2 entire character boards who agree on a matchup, and that matchup is incorrectly stated in this chart. A post was made by MMac to get Yoshi's matchups changed, going through every single character. He stated when both character boards agreed on the matchup. IvanEva still did not change it.

How can one view this chart as reliable?
 
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