Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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IvanEva

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This is a chart representing how I feel, through experience and observations, specific match-ups go within Brawl.

As of [whenever the hell I last updated this thing...]: There will be no more updates to this chart. I strongly recommend that posters head on over to their main's match-up threads and start working out the match-ups so that DanGR can finish up his chart.
 

ssbbFICTION

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In my opinion, it would be better to pit computers against each other in say, 400 matches and see the results...
 

Jaxx

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You didn't even finish the chart? What a waste of time. Why post half finished data?
because its a work in progress, he said himself that he doesn't know everything because he and his friends play their favorite chars. Stop trying to be a ****.

It's a starting point, good list.

Also you forgot ZSS
 

Spooky.

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Coming along nicely! This looks like an interesting venture.

Honestly though, it can't be held as too reliable without some sort of control of set conditions. Like Fiction said, you need trails in number to try to separate chance from patterns. Some sort of even leveled CPU match-up on a certain stage without items or identical condition tests might be the way to go... even then, certain character lend their skills better to certain maps.

This is a very interesting project though, keep it up! ...and hopefully test it into the ground to prove your results. We could have a very nice reference from this!
 

Arma_

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because its a work in progress, he said himself that he doesn't know everything because he and his friends play their favorite chars. Stop trying to be a ****.

It's a starting point, good list.

Also you forgot ZSS
Instead of giving us half-baked material that will probably be totally changed anyway, he should have just kept it to himself until it was completely finished. He even forgot a character, so obviously not a lot of work went into it.

You can enjoy your half-finished list if you'd like, but I myself would rather see a totally fleshed out and completed project. JUST SAYIN'.
 

Nybb

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You're going to need to seperate Zelda/Shiek and Zero Suit/Samus for the purposes of this list, because they are really independent characters.

There's quite a few that I wouldn't agree with, but I'm not sure where to start.

For one thing, how do Jigglypuff and Bowser beat Wolf?
 

Syde7

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Haha. I see that you might have been browsing and found my thread on this exact subject.
I'm still in the process of gathering data at the moment- there's a ton of threads to sift through pertaining to match-ups.

[-coughs-] Hate to be a me monster, but mine is incredibly different, and more detailed atm... and has a nice lil visual aside from the chart to go along with it. But, I'm waiting until the tiers come out, and a few 'top notch' tournaments are in the books before I publish mine. But either way, good progress I suppose.
 

IvanEva

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On the Samus thing: I like to consider her suit/suitless as one character since you can switch when you pick her and she only takes one character slot on the selection screen. Samus' match-ups would be based on a 'mix' of the two. However, since everybody dislikes that (including people I play with) I'll add Zero Suit Samus as a separate character. That was poor insight on my part.

On the unfinished thing: That's the point of posting it in the first place! I doubt even the best Brawl player right now could make a completely accurate match-up chart. There's just too many spots to be absolutely sure about. I know most Lucas match-ups pretty well but not too much else. The point of it is that you contribute the match ups that YOU do know. This is a Smash Bros. community. Everybody pitches in, everybody benefits. I know a few match-ups pretty well but certainly not all. I'm sure the same can be said for everyone here, no? But by sharing our match-up experiences we can fill up the chart pretty quickly, I should think. Filling it up with unproven data may actually just be harmful (which would be about half of what I filled out) and misleading. Ideally, I should have just filled in the match-ups that I was sure of from experience.

Do you play as Donkey Kong? Do you notice that you're consistantly knocking Captain Falcons around with ease due to your range and down-tilt speed (just an example - may not be true - I don't use DK) but always losing horribly to Pikachu due to an inability to get past the jolt spam? Post that and I'll change the chart to show that DK has an advantage over Falcon but is at a disadvantage against Pikachus.

However, I do agree that it looks rather unprofessional for the moment. I'll do more digging around and fill up the empty spots with what information I can find on those match-ups. If anybody disagrees with any match-up, please say so and why. That's the whole point of it; this is the tactical discussion thread afterall.

Lastly, I should state that the computer thing, while certainly the more 'scientific' method (and it sounds pretty cool - when this chart is 'finished' I'll totally have to check out if an AI version matches it), wouldn't be a good idea since how the AI plays can bare little resemblance to how a human plays (although Brawl's AI is certainly more "human" than Melee's... but not by much). This is more of a 'general community consensus' on which characters have an advantage over each other. Like, if Melee's Fox AI kept getting beaten by the Mewtwo AI it would have no bearing on Fox having an official advantage over Mewtwo as shown by humans.

I'll update the chart again tomorrow night.
 

Qinopio

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This is a very ambitious project, even moreso than Phanna's matchup chart

I'd suggest reversing the order of the top row only, and only filling in the topleft half, that way you'll save on duplicating data

but this won't be reliable for ages and many tourneys
 

kevo2488

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Mr. G&W has a huge advantage over Pikachu. Bucket his thundershocks and even his thunderbolts. I've beaten good players just by doing that.
 

rabbitgod

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I think this is great. Though it obviously needs a lot of work, by posting it now you can get input from the community.
 

IvanEva

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Wolf > Jiggs
Wolf > Bowser
G&W > Pika

Cool, cool. I'll fix all that up as soon as I can tomorrow. Post as much as you're sure of and we'll be able to consider it out of 'beta' soon enough. :)

Should Shiek and Pokémon Trainer's sub-characters really be considered separate? They can switch to whomever is most appropriate for the job (and doesn't PT HAVE to switch?) and it'd be that character that would be considered when comparing. I can see the advantage of splitting them though...
 

paOol

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Hmmm. i'll contribute to this :p

Diddy Kong has weaknesses against Marth, R.O.B, Wolf, Falco, Fox, and Pit.

Diddy has an advantage over Bowser, and Ike i suppose.
 

IWuvGeno

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Make it more readable by taking off your wanna-be flashy shadows on each symbol. Also, pick some very, very simple symbols that have no extra doo-dads.

Right now, my eyes just hurt looking at that thing. I like the idea though, it'll go through massive changes I'm sure... but good to put things into perspective.
 

GoForkUrself

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I'd say King Dedede> DK, Marth, Ganondorf, Ike, Mario, Sonic, Luigi
DDD< ZSS, Kirby, Olimar, Pikachu, Jigs, Ice Climbers
DK, Luigi, Bowser, Samus and Mario can be infinite grabbed standing still, so those are obviously favorable to DDD. Marth, Ike, Ganondorf, and Sonic have no projectiles, and can be chain grabbed.
All those I put as bad matchups can't be chaingrabbed, except IC, but there are two of them, so grabs aren't too effective. Also, they all use projectiles except Jigs, who has an easy rest target.

Ike is a bad matchup vs fast characters, and also a bad matchup vs characters with effective projectiles. Only exception to that rule is Sonic. For whatever reason, Ike owns Sonic.
 

Zankoku

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Pretty cool work. I've been looking for this ever since I decided to take up the Mathematically Calculated Tier List project for Brawl : P.

Personally, I think Zelda and Sheik should be separated - though combined play is somewhat suggested, it's not made necessary, unlike Pokémon Trainer. And Zero Suit Samus is an entirely different character from Samus, and should be treated as such.

I'd like to see a separate indication of one-sided advantages as well, instead of only three possible outcomes.

Oh, and Meta Knight > Pit, I think.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I highly doubt that Peach is at a disadvantage to almost all of the roster. People should get used to her more before jumping to conclusions.
 

Jaxx

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ok I would say since I play Gannondorf extensivly

Gannon > IC, Kirby, Ness, Peach, Sonic
Gannon = Ike, Mario, Luigi, Wario
Gannon < Lucario, Lucas, MK, Pika, Olimar, Samus

Olimar doesn't really have any bad match ups....
 

joepinion

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The reason ZSS, Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer need to be separated is because they are totally different and segregated in terms of match-ups. It doesn't matter that you can switch between them each match.
 

Aminar

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As a referance tool this could help Pokemon Trainers know who to us against whom, same w/ Zelda/ Shiek. Therefor they should all have seperate rows.
 

sxiz

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Zelda/Sheik are played seperately, very few people switch between them. PT, however, gets auto switches when the Pokemon die and they get tired so I don't know about him. I'd still split him though because Squirtle might not do so well against something that Charizard beats easily. The whole point of this is to find out which character does well against which character, and saying 'PT beats Zamus' without specifying which Pokemon is useless.

You can't switch between Samus and Zamus like you can between Zelda/Sheik, btw. You can start as either and switch to Zamus during the match but you can't switch back. Seperate characters imo.

Also MK beats Olimar, Sex Tornado outprioritizes Pikmin.
 

Thinkaman

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I've actually thought an enormous deal about this, and sent a message bugging phanna about the direction of a Brawl matchup chart. Here's my thoughts:

First, data should only be collected from the character subforums by knowledgeable mains of the characters. This data will begin to solidify as matchup guides and rankings are added to character guides. The important thing is to not base most of the chart off personal opinions of any one person, be it yourself or random March '08 posters in your thread.

Second, all data should be collected only upon the consensus of BOTH character subforums. This should be obvious: if The Jigglypuff board insists that Jiggs counters Pikachu in Brawl, and the Pikachu board is saying that Pikachu counters Jigglypuff, part of this project would be working towards an agreement with the two bodies. In a case like this I would expect one of the advocating groups to merely be less informed than the other.

Third... dividing up characters.

-Zelda and Shiek are different characters. When tiers are calculated from the finished matchup chart, Both Shiek and Zelda's values should be slightly biased towards the other if it is higher. In rare cases where both the matchups are equal and an advantage is gained by actively switching between both (Shiek to build damage and Zelda to kill?), then for tier calculations the assignment may be inflated even higher.

(For example if we are using phanna's 0-10 system: Let's say that Shiek has an 8 against Mario while Zelda has a 2. Strictly for the purposes of calculating tiers (not on the chart itself), Zelda might be considered a 5 to acknowledge Shiek's available advantage. Second, let's say Zelda is considered a 5 against Pikachu, Shiek is also considered a 5 agaisnt Pikachu, and there is no advantage to be had by switching between the two. Both would be considered a 5 for purposes of tiers. Finally, let's say Shiek and Zelda also both have 6s against DK, but due to different reasons: perhaps Shiek can combo DK very well below 60%, and Zelda has relatively low-percent KOs on him. Not only this, but let's assume in our exmaple that Zelda/Shiek players find it realisticly possible to change characters without penalty due to DK's slow speed and recovery; both characters might be considered a 7 for purposes of tier calculation to reflect the advantage switching offers.)

-Samus and Zamus are also different characters. For tiers, a similar but smaller bias should exist for Samus, though obviously not Zamus.

(For example as above: Let's say Samus has a 3 against Mario while Zamus has a 7; we might consider Samus a 4 when calculating tiers. If the roles were reversed, Zamus would still be considered only a 3 however.)

-Pokemon Trainer deserves not only all three Pokemon on the chart, but an overall ranking too due to the unique mechanics of the character. Typically, we can assume a weight of two-thirds to the best matchup, one-third to the middle, and no weight to the worst. Pokemon Trainer would have his own spot on the tier list, and it would probably be artificially high since it would assume equal skill with all three characters. Individual Pokemon should also be put on the tier list according to their individual values, but penalized to reflect a stamina an switching penalty. (The cost of playing as one Pokemon exclusively.) Finally, like Zelda/Shiek, it is possible that a teamwork-bonus of sorts could apply in some situations.

(Couple examples: Let's assume the Pokmon have the following matchup against say DeDeDe: Squirtle 9, Ivysaur 6, Charizard 2. It can be fair to say that players will use Squirtle extensively, and occasionally Ivysaur while skipping Charizard as much as possible; PT would probably be given an overall rating of 8. Second example, perhaps Squirtle is a 3 against Marth, while Ivysaur and Charizard are both 6 for different reasons. PT's overall rating against Marth might be a 7, reflecting the combined advantages of Ivysaur and Charizard while largely ignoring Squirtle.)

I hope everything here makes sense.
 

Ch0zen0ne

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First off... you're not Phanna.

please stop.

2ndly.. Why do you have it where PT, MK, Pit, Marth, and DK counter over half the characters in the game?

my 2nd point shows your and complete failure to understand counters and how they work in this game..

how about you wait about 6months before attempting this and looking like a dumb@** or ask some pros/post in character specific topics about their matchups.

Good Day Sir.
 

yoonie

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Instead of giving us half-baked material that will probably be totally changed anyway, he should have just kept it to himself until it was completely finished. He even forgot a character, so obviously not a lot of work went into it.

You can enjoy your half-finished list if you'd like, but I myself would rather see a totally fleshed out and completed project. JUST SAYIN'.
Did you notice that because he posted what he already has, he's getting FEEDBACK? And that feedback is IMPROVING the chart? JUST SAYIN'.
 

NessOnett

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As a Ness-main, i went through looking at the character match-ups for him specifically, and i notice a few glaring problems. Firstly, vs. Pit. He has an advantage not a disadvantage. A lot of detail could be put into explaining this, but Pit's two major advantages are taken away when playing against Ness. His arrows can be absorbed by Psi Magnet, and his wings of icarus...PKThunder is the best move to gimp him when his wings are out. Pit is no challenge for a Ness who is paying attention. Secondly, he has an edge vs. Olimar, if nothing else than due to his PKFire which Pillars pikmin to death and is very hard for the captain to DI out of. This leads to easy grabs which Ness can edgeguard from rediculously easily with superior air game. I've threestocked Olimar-mains at 0% by using this strategy. And Lastly Dedede, another character who gets trapped miserably by PKFire. Waddle-Dee throw goes right over Ness' head, chaingrab doesn't work well on Ness; so there goes the king's aces. He can be pillar->f-throw(off edge) -> d-air(spike) from 0% to death rediculously easily because of how short his jumps are and how big his hitbox is(only thing he can really do is ^B prematurely, which will make him kill himself more than anything). That is all i have to say about Ness for now, from personal experience.
 

blue_dragon

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Falcon most certainly isn't at a disadvantage v. Meta Knight. Falcon Kick breaks through Mach Tornado and side-b, and MK lacks killing moves. Wheras Falcon has killing moves and is faster than MK.

Link, Samus(Power Suit), and Sonic v. Falcon are easily debatable.

And Bowser? :) No way in hell. Only Gimpy's Bowser can do that.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

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First off... you're not Phanna.

please stop.

2ndly.. Why do you have it where PT, MK, Pit, Marth, and DK counter over half the characters in the game?

my 2nd point shows your and complete failure to understand counters and how they work in this game..

how about you wait about 6months before attempting this and looking like a dumb@** or ask some pros/post in character specific topics about their matchups.

Good Day Sir.
Inglish is Very Yes!!!!

Good Day Sir.
 

Nintendo_lord

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How can you seriously consider that Marth has an advantage over Pikachu and Pit? Pikachu is an incredible camping character (all of which Marth stinks against) and due to Pit's arrows and great recovery he pretty much a Marth counter!
 

IvanEva

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Your DK is ALL wrong, just give it another month then do this alright.
If you can be certain that what I put in for DK is wrong then waiting another month isn't necessary as you clearly know what works for DK and what doesn't (otherwise you wouldn't be able to claim that it was wrong). That's a good thing though - please post what you know about DK match-ups so that it can be added to the chart.


First off... you're not Phanna.

please stop.

2ndly.. Why do you have it where PT, MK, Pit, Marth, and DK counter over half the characters in the game?

my 2nd point shows your and complete failure to understand counters and how they work in this game..

how about you wait about 6months before attempting this and looking like a dumb@** or ask some pros/post in character specific topics about their matchups.

Good Day Sir.
Likewise, to say that those characters DON'T counter half the characters in the game you must know what you're talking about, no? Post who they DO/DON'T counter so that the table can be made accurate.

My apologies for not making it totally clear (although I guess that did help to get people to post match-ups) but most of my entries were basically 'garbage values' put in just to fill it up visually. Hopefully this other way (only what's been posted goes up) will be better. Just be sure to contribute if you're sure of a certain match-up. I'll update that table very frequently.
 

Ripple

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As the person in charge of the Dk match-up thread you can put in these.

Dk>ganon
DK>Bowser
DK=Ike
DK<Olimar
DK=Ice climbers (I think, need more info)
I'll post more later
 
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