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Brawl Character Match-Up chart

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Vaul

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I'm gonna have to contest the Ness/Ganondorf matchup currently up. If anything I believe its vice-versa: Ness>Ganon. I don't mean to further bring down everybody's favorite male Gerudo, but I find it very hard to believe that Ganon has a clear advantage over Ness. Ness's air game counters Ganon's predictable ground game (namely sideB) and Ness's fair tears through all of Ganon's attacks and juggles the man like no other; here Ness's combo potential really shines. Ness has the advantage in range, priority (for the most part), and speed. While Ganon may be heavier and stronger, there's little he can do against a nimble Ness (i believe ness's fsmash has greater knockback/damage than ganon's, btw). I'm not saying that Ness is necessarily a counter to Ganon, but I highly doubt (along with pretty much any ness mainer) that Ganondorf is Ness's weakness.

Hopefully this will reassure everyone (and myself) that what we do here is meaningful in the grand scheme of things (yea...not at all)
 

Boolossus

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I main Donkey Kong and ROB. I can fill you in on some of their match-ups. (+ means in favor, - means bad matchup, ~ means neutral)

ROB:
Toon Link +
Marth +
Pit +
Game and Watch -
Meta Knight ~
DeDeDe +

Donkey Kong:
DeDeDe -
Marth ~
Toon Link +
Meta Knight +
Game and Watch +


Those are the six characters who I've had enough experience against to rank. I play against alot of Ike's too (trust me, it's ALOT) and I usually lose, but I think that it's me being dumb that's causing me to lose, and not the character matchup.
 

Emblem Lord

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lol.

Marth vs Peach isn't disputable. He ***** her. Hard.

Marth vs Pit is Marth's advantage as well.

R.O.B vs Marth is even.

R.O.B's camping isn't that amazing or that hard to get past.

What you have to consider is how easy is it to get past the camping and does the character have the tools to get the job done once they get in. Marth has the tools to deal with camping effectively and since he hits so hard and has good damage racking he can make it count once he gets.
 

Young_Link808

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toon link is great agaisnt bowser with his big size he is easy to juggle plus he is heavy so more comboing and his projectiles do well agaisnt him
 

dancingfrogman

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I'd like to say, put two lvl 9 cpu characters and seven different stage, 3 neutral(Final destination, lylat Cruise and battlefield), 2 counter-pick(Delfino plaza and Luigi's Mansion), and 2 banned(Spear pillar and warioware), and see the outcome, lets say we put wario and Mr game and watch, and just say wario won 4 matches out of 7, we can say they're quite equal match-up wise, or if G&W won 6 out of 7, we can say that G&W is stronger match-up wise, unless the matches was so even through out, thats when you might still think they are an even match-up! But if they are are always dominating the match, we can say it's clear who is a better/worse match-up for who that character is!
 

Boolossus

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lol.

Marth vs Peach isn't disputable. He ***** her. Hard.

Marth vs Pit is Marth's advantage as well.

R.O.B vs Marth is even.

R.O.B's camping isn't that amazing or that hard to get past.

What you have to consider is how easy is it to get past the camping and does the character have the tools to get the job done once they get in. Marth has the tools to deal with camping effectively and since he hits so hard and has good damage racking he can make it count once he gets.
I wasn't speaking only about his camping. ROB has almost as much range with his physical moves as Marth does, which takes away the only advantage that Marth has over any character. Marth is alot lighter than ROB, and not much faster, so ROB has a nice weight advantage over him.

Then again, I have yet to play a Marth that does something besides Forward Air, Forward B, and Forward Smash most of the match, so I have a really easy time predicting them. That could be why I feel like I have an advantage when using ROB against them.
 

ComradeSAL

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Boolossus: Could you explain your thoughts on the Pit matchup? Because that is the one matchup where I am almost certain that R.O.B has the disadvantage. See my previous post for details.
 

Emblem Lord

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Marth's only advantage over any character is his range?

What?

I thought it was his speed, power and knockback that made him a great character. Not just his range. Also his plethora of kill options. Also his ground game amd air game is excellent.

I'm just going to blatantly say that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Marth.

R.O.B has ALMOST the same reach? Then how does Marth lose his range advantage then? You just conceded that Marth does in fact outrange R.O.B with this statement.

...

Moving on.

Marth kills better then R.O.B and R.O.B doesn't have great kill options. He has good ones, but not great.

And you also concede that you play nothing, but Marth scrubs.

This isn't how match-ups work. You look at the best available strats and tactics and character attributes and then apply them to the match-up for analysis. Personal experience is the last thing that you should bring into match-up analysis unless you are placing high in tournaments.
 

Trozz

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I've been playing Lucas competitively since the game launched. I am very familiar with some matchups. Each thing I've commented on, I've played against another competent player several times.

Lucas Vs
Falco, advantage: Falco. Falco is fast enough to close distance very quickly. Constant laser shots refresh Falco's A and are very hard to absorb. Shine deflects spells and deals damage.
Ice Climbers, advantage: neutral. Lucas has better projectiles and will force IC to close distance. Lucas's u-smash will devastate either Nana or Popo. ICs can combo Lucas effectively. Ice projectiles cannot be absorbed.
Ivysaur, advantage: Lucas. PK Fire equals razor leaf in terms of priority, but PK Fire casts much faster. Ivysaur will have to resort to other attacks. Lucas can easily escape bullet seed. Ivysaur has a horrible recovery and is easily edgeguarded.
Jiggly, advantage: Lucas. Jigglenaught doesn't have as much knockout potential. PK Thunder is hard to evade with a floaty character like Jiggles.
Kirby, advantage: ??? I haven't played this matchup enough to comment. There aren't enough Kirby players.
Link, advantage: Link. Link wins the projectile war, forcing Lucas to close range. Although the characters are roughly even in terms of power, Link will be able to manipulate the game more with his projectile spamming power.
Lucario, advantage: Lucas. Lucario's d-air is out prioritized by both PK Thunder and Lucas's u-smash. The dark orb can be absorbed, replenishing a huge amount of health. Lucario gets smashed up easily and Lucas smashes up very hard.
Mario, advantage: ??? Again, I haven't played this one enough.
Ness, advantage: Lucas. Lucas has better attacks. Lucas's psi magnet is a great attack. Ness's PK Fire can destroy Lucas, but most projectiles in this match will end up getting absorbed anyway. Lucas also has a ranged throw and powerful smashes (the yo-yo can't compare against the hexagons).
Peach, advantage: ??? Peach doesn't seem to get much play since she got balanced from Melee.
Pikachu, advantage: ??? I play against a lot of people who play bad Pikachus. Pikachu shouldn't be that bad against Lucas, although Lucas can PK Thunder 2 through any lightning attack.
Pikmin/Olimar, advantage: Olimar. Pikmin thrown cause PK Fire to fail. Olimar can easily grab, has long ranged smashes, and a good ranged game. Lucas will be forced to go on the offensive and won't perform well.
Pit, advantage: Pit. Pit has a ridiculously powerful projectile. His shield (and possibly his circular saw) deflect spells. Pit's smashes are fast, hard hitting, and have nearly no lag after them. Lucas will have problems.
R.O.B., advantage: neutral. ROB can punish Lucas with lasers and gyros, but Lucas can play the ranged game just as well, if not better. ROB has long ranged aerials that will destroy Lucas if he gets stuck in the air. ROB's d-smash murders Lucas. Lucas shouldn't have any trouble hitting ROB, since he's massive.
Samus, advantage: ??? You can absorb the charge shot, but most Samus players just spam the smash missiles. I don't know how this would play out.
Shiek, advantage: neutral. Shiek is fast and still powerful (although, no longer god-tier). Shiek's biggest problem will be getting around the fire and thunder spells. Lucas's stick smash and rope snake grab will be useful here.
Snake, advantage: Lucas. Snake might have issues closing distance. Moves like Psi Magnet will keep Snake away. PK Thunder can detonate claymores. Lucas can easily punish Snake's recovery. Although Snake's melee combo is hard hitting, it can also be prevented with fire spamming.
Sonic, advantage: ??? No idea, but this one seems neutral. Sonic's roll has lousy priority.
Squirtle, advantage: Squirtle. The Squirtle will have to play **** good to beat a Lucas, but he is fast enough to do so. Squirtle is fast enough to continuously deal aerial attacks to knock Lucas out and evade spells. Lucas has a huge delay after failing to land u-smash or a throw that Squirtle can jump all over and punish.
Toon Link, advantage: Toon Link. TL has sick projectiles. Lucas can't absorb anything, so he's once again forced to close range. People who can short hop TL's b-air will slaughter Lucas.
Wario, advantage: neutral. Wario has a lot of things going for him. Easy ways to get damage, stupid high priority with bite, insane air control, massive recovery, heavy weight, an instant kill skill every minute, and good smash attacks. He's also fat, an easy target, short ranged, and low priority on everything else he does. Warios will have to play a careful game, probably with lots of d-air d-smash hits.
Wolf, advantage: Wolf. Projectile deflection, a mean ranged attack, and even meaner melee attacks. Unless the person using Wolf doesn't know his character, Lucas is in for pain.
Yoshi, advantage: ??? Who plays this goofy dino?
Zelda, advantage: Lucas. Din's Fire is useless here, so Zelda will have to go with a different plan. A Zelda that knows her tilts should be able to play just fine against Lucas. Fortunately for Lucas players, 90% of Zelda users don't care about her tilts and can't land many air kicks. The Zelda player would have to have madd skills to land any of her awesome air kicks.
ZSS, advantage: ??? I play a lot of ZSS, but I haven't seen this matchup enough to comment.
 

Ulevo

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I definitely think this is a good method for gaining perspective on type match ups, provided you are willing to filter through the people here who are not smart/responsible enough to give you posts other than "Marth>Mario k thx", and take in the good, in depth explanations.

I will make sure to contribute later, as I just discovered that Wario can chain grab Bowser to well over 120%, and am curious as to who else he can smack around that way. I definitely think that could effect the list.
 

rageagainst

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Lucas Vs

Zelda, advantage: Lucas. Din's Fire is useless here, so Zelda will have to go with a different plan. A Zelda that knows her tilts should be able to play just fine against Lucas. Fortunately for Lucas players, 90% of Zelda users don't care about her tilts and can't land many air kicks. The Zelda player would have to have madd skills to land any of her awesome air kicks.
Just because MOST Zelda's don't play her correctly shouldn't at ALL reflect character matchups, as character matchups should be under the assumption that both players can play their characters to the fullest and have equal skill, so its just a test of character powerr, not player skll.




Zelda has an advantage over almost every large framed characters, of which definately include, Gdorf, Dedede, and Bowser.

She has an advantage over Sheik as well, and is there any specific reason shes neutral to C-falcon?
 

choknater

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I won't make too many conclusions.

Here are some considering my mains

But sheik is about a 6-4 over Ike
and Dedede is like a 8-2 over Ike

Ice Climbers lose to many characters.
 

Eltrotraw

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Wait, what? Marth is disadvantaged versus Pit?

I thought it was the other way around!

The only thing that Pit has over Marth is that Pit can arrow spam over him. Once Marth closes the distance, he has the advantage due to his sword having longer reach than the majority(if not all) of Pit's attacks.

EDIT: Aw man, Emblem Lord beat me to the Marth vs. Pit thing and more.

I need to play more better people. I'm stuck versus tons of Pits and R.O.B.s...
 

Flow Wolf

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In my opinion, it would be better to pit computers against each other in say, 400 matches and see the results...
That's the approach I was contemplating, it makes sense and is more objective.

Just pick two (level 9) characters and pit them against eachother for the same ten levels (timed stock matches) and record the results. This should easily result in advantage/disadvantage percentages, but could take a good bit of time.
 

Flow Wolf

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Wait, what? Marth is disadvantaged versus Pit?

I thought it was the other way around!

The only thing that Pit has over Marth is that Pit can arrow spam over him. Once Marth closes the distance, he has the advantage due to his sword having longer reach than the majority(if not all) of Pit's attacks.
And Marth is much stronger / can actually FINISH his foes
 

Eltrotraw

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And Marth is much stronger / can actually FINISH his foes
Now that's not exactly true. Pit's reliable finishers are dsmash, ftilt, fsmash(second hit), fair and bair.

Bair especially, but that has such short range and once again, Marth's advantages outweigh Pit's in this factor because of how Pit's bair needs to be sweetspotted and it's kinda short ranged compared to Marth's attacks.
 

JCaesar

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That's the approach I was contemplating, it makes sense and is more objective.

Just pick two (level 9) characters and pit them against eachother for the same ten levels (timed stock matches) and record the results. This should easily result in advantage/disadvantage percentages, but could take a good bit of time.
Why do people keep suggesting that? Computers do not fight like people at all. The results from this test would be absolutely worthless. Go ahead, try it with melee. I guarantee the tier list generated by lvl 9s wouldn't even be remotely close to the tier list agreed upon by the upper echelon of the community. It may be "objective" but it would be completely irrelevant.
 

Trozz

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Don't test vs the AI. They don't play their character to the fullest potential (they barely use d-smash with ROB).
 

eyestrain92

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Errr, Bowser's got it up on DK. In my experience, his moves out-prioritize and outrange DK. DK only has a slight speed advantage, in favor of loss of power a great degree of weight. DK also has no ranged/projectile attack. His air game is, above all else, below Bowser.
 

Christopher Rodriguez

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I'd like to point out that wario has a GIANT disadvantage vs Olimar. Olimar does very good against short ranged characters, Wario being one of them. All the Olimar player has to do is stand there and wait for an approach.
 

MaverickZer0

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Trozz, there is no other way to accurately gather strategies. Nobody is a pro at Brawl yet, so nobody can use the character to it's full potential.
 

Mario_ 101

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Mario: Pikachu and Fox have an edge on Mario because of their movesets. I did this experiment pitting 2 Level 9 CPU against each other on Final Destination with 3 stock. Some matches Mario completely dominated, others he was destroyed. Fox held an edge on Mario simply because he had the better strategic moves. Falco got obliterated, and I mean badly. Their rocket moves differ slight, and that made all the difference in being effective against a very good Mario. Fox is a bit more faster, Falco is floatier.

Pikachu only has one projectile, and has the speed to punish mario. The only time I saw Mario be effective against Pikachu, was when he caped Pikachus quick attack to send him off another trajectory. The rest of the match, Pikachu was juggling Mario.

I took a lot into consideration, Edgeguarding was a factor, how agressive the character could be while still being able to recover. Pikachu was able to chase Mario off screen for a KO and manage to get back on land before falling to his own death, Mario was hapless as he was just launched. So that's what gave it to Pikachu
You used CPU'S? I mean CPU's are ok, but they're relatively stupid, which doesn't make them the least accurate, because humans will always do some things that they won't which could throw these matchups off. A good example is how the Mario community has taken advantage of how to edgeguard with FLUDD. The cpu doesn't know how to use it because it's preproggramed with no strategical value with it.
Mario can juggle Pikachu quite easily, and combos are easy to escape if you know what to do. And BTW, pikachu's second projectile is his thunder (down B). Try reflecting it on him sometime. As for Fox, i have a friend who seconds him and it's an easy matchup for Mario, if hes got skillz like me.
 

Dark Sonic

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Wait, why does Peach have an advantage against Pit? Pit's arrow spamming>>>>>Peach's turnips. Pit's attacks have more range in general and Pit's recovery is better. It's true that Peach has more kill moves, but with Pit's arrows he'll be racking up damage much faster and hampering Peach's approach (especially since curved arrows negate float approaches). This match seems severly in Pit's favor.

As to help with other matchups, I think Sonic will probably have the advantage over the slower characters (and Ike). Sonic's fair has great priority for intercepting things, and Sonic's speed is great for hit and runs. Sonic's skid animation from stopping his dash (just releasing it, not turning around) can be canceled with any attack and makes approaching a lot easier. I think the more skilled both players are, the more the match turns in favor for Sonc, as Sonic has a considerably high learning curve compared to many other characters.
 

MaverickZer0

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A good example is how the Mario community has taken advantage of how to edgeguard with FLUDD. The cpu doesn't know how to use it because it's preproggramed with no strategical value with it.
.
Sorry to burst that bubble... but 9 CPU Mario used the FLUDD to edgeguard religiously.
 

BluMilk

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Wait, why does Peach have an advantage against Pit? Pit's arrow spamming>>>>>Peach's turnips. Pit's attacks have more range in general and Pit's recovery is better. It's true that Peach has more kill moves, but with Pit's arrows he'll be racking up damage much faster and hampering Peach's approach (especially since curved arrows negate float approaches). This match seems severly in Pit's favor.

As to help with other matchups, I think Sonic will probably have the advantage over the slower characters (and Ike). Sonic's fair has great priority for intercepting things, and Sonic's speed is great for hit and runs. Sonic's skid animation from stopping his dash (just releasing it, not turning around) can be canceled with any attack and makes approaching a lot easier. I think the more skilled both players are, the more the match turns in favor for Sonc, as Sonic has a considerably high learning curve compared to many other characters.
i completly agree and im a peach mainer. Pit is at a tremendious advantage over peach.
 

Emblem Lord

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Actually Ike runs all over Sonic.

Sonic can't kill him, but he dies easy and Ike has enough fast moves to go toe to toe with Sonic.

And the QDA allows Ike to keep up with Sonic in terms of mobility.
 

CodeytheRhino

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Fail detected. According to your chart, MK would be the best character because he has more advantages that anyone. Fact is, it determines on the player.
 

JCaesar

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G&W had a decent matchup on falco in melee. Granted, he lost his 0-death combos on spacies, but in general he's been hugely buffed, and now it's harder for falco to pin him with lasers. I haven't played this matchup yet in brawl so this is just speculation, but I could see how the match is in favor of G&W.
 

Dark Sonic

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Sonic can't kill him, but he dies easy and Ike has enough fast moves to go toe to toe with Sonic.

And the QDA allows Ike to keep up with Sonic in terms of mobility.
Ike is pretty easy to edgeguard, and in the air Sonic outspeeds Ike every time (except his bair). Since none of Ike's aerials have super armor, Sonic can just play a reactionary game and interupt most of Ike's attacks. One the ground Ike has a much easier time due to his quick Jab, d-smash, and f-tilt. There's also a very easy way to stop the quickdraw approach. Just short hop an airdodge moving foward, causing Ike to do the slash but not hit you. Of course this will only work if he ended up pretty close to start with, but that's pretty much what the quick draw is for anyway.

I'd think the better the Sonic player gets at controlling his speed, the harder it will become for Ike to hit Sonic.
 

DwaynBibad

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So Many bad Match Ups for Bowser?

I think we need some more input from Bowser mainers because this chart says that Bowser's is disadvantaged against Zamus, Donkey Kong, Ivysaur, Lucas, Wario, and Wolf.

I'm not sure of the actual definition of "disadvantage" is, but I was assuming it was something along the lines of a character having the moveset to completely shut down another character. This said, none of these characters can shut down a good Bowser, in fact I would argue that Bowser has the advantages against characters like Donkey Kong and Ivysaur.

A simplified explanation of Bowser's strategy is to try to score the first win (it usually takes around 130% minimum dmg to kill him), and then land a Bowsercide to reset his damage and keep the lead and win. If Bowser is on the losing side of the damage meter before this happens, he can also use Bowsercide to kill himself and the opponent to prevent from getting Smashed out first. This can go all the way into Sudden Death mode if need be.

I do admit that these characters do give Bowser a hard time, but pretty much all characters give Bowser a hard time. Also Bowser has really great Edgeguarding abilities with his Butt Stop, Bair, and Flamethrower attacks. Zamus, Donkey Kong, Ivysaur, and Wolf (and Lucas?) are already known to to have a hard time getting back into the ring anyway.

Sorry for making you read all that but what I'm trying to say that these guys aren't Bowser counters since they can't shutdown the Bowsercide strategy, and a lot of them have weaknesses against ledges which Bowser is pretty good at, so it's definitely not ownage.

If you want real Bowser counters I would definitely have to say Peach seems to outspeed and Outpriotizes everything Bowser does, add that really fast Down-Smash that hits all around her which can't be dodged through and Bowser can't get inside to throw at all.

Olimar is simply a nightmare for Bowser, easily the best example of a counter, especially if he pulls out a red pikmin.

Falco's reflector shield goes right through Bowser's Flame, and his gun spam is much better than Wolf's, I would definitely replace him as a counter.

I know I don't have much hits on this forum for my opinion to count, but please other Bowser players chime in if you agree with me.
 

Dark Sonic

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^^Counters and bad matchups are two different things. If those characters give Bowser a hard time, then they have an advantage over him. It may not be a devestating advantage, but it could be a soft advantage (like Marth->Captain Falcon in melee).
 

DwaynBibad

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^^Counters and bad matchups are two different things. If those characters give Bowser a hard time, then they have an advantage over him. It may not be a devestating advantage, but it could be a soft advantage (like Marth->Captain Falcon in melee).
Well that still doesn't explain why Donkey Kong, Ivysaur, and Wario are up there, or why the actual threats to Bowser (Peach, Olimar and Falco) aren't.

I honestly don't know how the chart got like that as there should be a lot of high Profile Bowser players in here contributing to this.

I know it's not the final draft either, which is the only reason why I posted in the first place. But this chart is gonna stay incorrect unless some more Bowser players contribute to this which is really what I'm really asking for.
 

Baconater

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Well I think we can agree that Jigglypuff> Bowser. Jigglypuff> Donkey Kong. Spacing of pound combined with the obvious potential of rest makes jigglypuff very hard for either bowser or donkey kong to deal with. Plus WOP is very very easy against these characters who don't have very good recoveries to begin with.
 
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