Brawl Character Match-Up chart

[OoNoiRoO]

From experience, i think ICs have the advantage against olimar.

 

[Samson_ASR]

Well I like your attempt and agree with most of it, but Lucas is overrated here. and Luigi is also, they improved luigi very well and he is fantastic against arial opponents

 

[Blue sHell]

I have no idea how you got the idea that Falco and Fox counter Wario, dude. I'm ranked 8th in MLG's first brawl ladder and I've faught TONS of Foxs and Falcos. They don't bring anything to the table that could possibly make Wario at a disadvantage, at all. Really at all.

Wario does have the advantage over Ike. Ike mains who haven't fought a good Wario will just not understand why.

Wario's disadvantages from my knowledge as of now should be: Metaknight, Marth, Olimar.
Wario's advantages as of now should be: Ike, Bowser, Peach, Sonic, Samus, ZSS, Falcon, Zelda, Ganondorf
Wario's even matchups: Wolf, ToonLink, Dedede

 

[IvanEva]

To the OP, what program are you using to make that chart?

Photoshop with three layers with masks (paint on, paint off) hiding a full grid of checks, Xs, etc.

 

[IvanEva]

TL has a great advantage over Ike, you should correct that. Ike is weak against spammable projectiles AND speed, so it's obvious.

Err, there wasn't any entry for Toon Link/Ike... I'm adding your suggestion now but it was totally blank before...

That does bring up the point that I should probably make more/thicker vertical lines or some colour to help people follow the correct column.

Edit: My bad, double post. How do I delete a post?

 

[Koga]

I think you gave Meta Knight too many unfavorable marks. He has and advantage over everyone but the characters that are as heavey as snake or heavier. He just outright wins most priority battles and his killing potential is not as bad as people say except vs the heavies. Ike is his worst matchup.

 

[:034:]

Meta Knight > Wolf.

Meta Knight edgeguards the **** out of Wolf. His poor vertical recovery makes it even easier to do so. Meta Knight is fast enough to punish Wolf's mistakes and priority, attack speed, disjointed hitboxes and low lag make it really hard for Wolf to get some decent hits in.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

It's a nice chart but I lol'd at bowser having a disadv to half of the cast and no adv whatsoever, he's not that bad, lol.

 

[abit_rusty]

You're missing a ton of checks in Snake's row

 

[xilez]

Can you please explain to me why Diddy has an X when it comes to facing marth

 

[Flyingmonkey]

Luigi>Sonic

Air Priority kills- Luigi can stick a nair in Sonic's combos. Also, fireball goes through spindash. Sonic mains tend to agree with this (check the current last few pages of the tier list topic).

 

[thx]

i dont think sonic counters diddy i think it would be the other way around

 

[Trozz]

I play a lot of the Pokemon Trainer. The versatility is awesome. Here's my comments on matchup balance for each of the three Pokemon.

Squirtle (aka Ninja Turtle) Vs
Bowser, advantage: neutral. Bowser can kill Squirtle at ridiculously low damage, but he might have a hard time hitting him. Unlike most characters, Squirtle doesn't get any particular advantage against large targets.
Captain Falcon, advantage: ??? Who plays Falcon? No one I know.
Charizard, advantage: Charizard. Rock smash is useless here. Squirtle can DI out of fire breath quickly. That's about all Squirtle has on Charizard. Squirtle has to deal a LOT of damage to Charizard to budge him, while all Charizard has to do is land a couple attacks in and Squirtle goes flying.
Diddy Kong, advantage: ??? I play as both characters, but haven't played them against each other enough to comment.
Donkey Kong, advantage: ??? DK has lousy aerials but huge reach on his attacks. Not sure about this one.
Falco, advantage: Falco. The shine will bring Squirtle's SH f-air game to a screeching halt, so he can't close distance effectively. He's going to have to, otherwise Squirtle will be eating lasers.
Fox, advantage: ??? I haven't done this match much. Fox's u-smash could possibly obliterate Squirtle.
Mr. G&W, advantage: neutral. Assuming that G&W uses his b-air (which is a turtle, ironically enough), this could be a very even fight.
Ganondorf, advantage: Ganondorf. No joke. Although Ganon is slow, his attacks have huge power and have the capability of destroying Squirtle. Squirtle's best bet is to swap out for Ivysaur.
Ice Climbers, advantage: ICs. Squirtle can't be chain grabbed, but those hammers will slaughter Squirtle. All of ICs offensive specials really mess Squirtle up.
Ike, advantage: Ike. All of Ike's attacks have KO potential. Not to mention, his attacks have range, priority, a disjointed hitbox, and damage. The only thing Squirtle can do is keep out of range and jump in if an opportunity presents itself (or just swap out).
Ivysaur, advantage: Ivysaur. Razor Leaf forces Squirtle to keep mobile. Bullet Seed is over powered. Ivysaur's u-smash will absolutely annihilate a Squirtle.
Jigglypuff, advantage: Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff has better air Control and can easily spam f-air. Both characters have roughly the same battle strategy, though Jigglypuff does it better. The only thing Squirtle really has on a Jigglypuff is a killer u-smash (which most Jpuffs can easily avoid anyway).
King Dedede, advantage: Squirtle. Dedede is big and bad, but has troubles with ninja turtles like Squirtle. Dedede's famous chain grab is useless here. Thrown minions will have trouble hitting a target with such a tiny hit box. If Dedede ever does manage to get a f-smash in, he'll turn Squirtle in to turtle soup (which doesn't happen often).
Kirby, advantage: Kirby. Final Cutter can give Squirtle a rough time. Kirby fights much better on the ground than Squirtle does.
Link, advantage: Squirtle. Link's projectile game isn't very effective here. Squirtle is very fast and has an in-your-face play style that forces Link to use silly attacks like the up-b spin and clawshot spam.
Lucario, advantage: Squirtle. Things look very bad for Lucario. It's hard to hit Squirtle with the charge orb, counter attack usually fails because of Squirtle's speed, d-air is ridiculously hard to land, and Lucario's other aerial attacks aren't powerful enough to take on Squirtle's agility.
Lucas, advantage: Squirtle. The Squirtle will have to play pro to beat a Lucas, but he is fast enough to do so. Squirtle is fast enough to continuously deal aerial attacks to knock Lucas out and evade spells. Lucas has a huge delay after failing to land u-smash or a throw that Squirtle can jump all over and punish.
Luigi, advantage: ??? No idea.
Mario, advantage: ??? Again, no idea. Water Gun is still way cooler than FLUDD.
Marth, advantage: Marth. Marth has insane arial attacks (n-air f-air ftw). Marth has long range, disjointed hitbox, better priority, and a f-smash that ends games. Bye Squirtle.
MetaKnight, advantage: MetaKnight. Any of MK's specials (except that useless Vanish move) cause Squirtles massive problems. Also, MetaKnight is one of the dreaded sword wielding characters in the game. Swords = priority = turtle soup. Swap to Ivysaur and destroy MK with a u-smash.
Ness, advantage: Squirtle. See the Lucas description, except there's a twist here; Ness's u-smash yoyo has been buffed since Melee. This attack is annoying to get around. Ness is generally slow and very floaty in the air, making him a prime target for Squirtle.
Peach, advantage: ??? No one seems to play Peach any more.
Pikachu, advantage: Pikachu. Pikachu's f-smash is ridiculously effective against Squirtle. Pikachu is fast enough to evade Squirtle and punish him with constant lightning attacks.
Pikmin & Olimar, advantage: Squirtle. Olimar's standard strategy is to make use of his insane grab, then make use of f-smash and u-smash. If you attack Olimar at an angle, he's in trouble. Sure, he can up-B to shoot up, but if he misses (or if Squirtle dodges), he is open to attack for a long time. Many Olimar's don't use this ability because of it's unreliability (you must have 6 Pikmin standing right next to you). Squirtle attacks in just such an angle that Olimar's play style is ineffective.
Pit, advantage: Pit. Another dreaded sword user. To make matters worse, Pit is fast, has an insane projectile, and possibly the best recovery in the game. He's such a ridiculously over powered character. Gah. Pit's dashing u-smash will end Squirtle.
R.O.B., advantage: neutral. ROB might have a hard time landing lasers and gyros, but is able to annihilate Squirtle with any of his smash attacks.
Samus, advantage: Squirtle. Samus's fat missiles will have a hard time hitting tiny targets, so Samus will have to use standard missiles. Samus might not be able to make uses of missiles at all if the Squirtle is all up in her business. Sure, the charge shot will destroy Squirtle, but she'll likely never get a chance to charge it with the ninja turtle bouncing around.
Shiek, advantage: neutral. Shiek's f-tilt combo doesn't work very well against Squirtle. Needles do.
Snake, advantage: Snake. Snake's melee combos all have great knockback. Once the Squirtle's been knocked back, Snake can modify the battle stage with mines and traps. Snake's explosives have crazy knockback (bad news for lightweights) and his b-air will end any Squirtle it hits.
Sonic, advantage: neutral. Sonic can deal with fast characters.
Toon Link, advantage: ??? Not sure about this one; TL plays differently then Link. TL's insane d-air and boomerang might mess Squirtle up.
Wario, advantage: Wario. Wario's air control is insane. Squirtle has a faster game when playing on the land, but Wario's attacks will ruin our blue turtle.
Wolf, advantage: Wolf. Wolf's projectile (it has such a ridiculously huge hit box) will give Squirtle a rough time, all while replenishing Wolf's very powerful A attacks.
Yoshi, advantage: ??? When it comes to Yoshi, I never know.
Zelda, advantage: Zelda. Zelda's u-smash will actually catch an aerial Squirtle, suck him in to a vortex of fairy sparkle death, then shoot him to the top of the stage for an easy kill. Zelda's dash attack also wrecks Squirtle. Din's Fire forces Squirtle to keep aggressive.
Zero Suit Samus, advantage: neutral. ZSS will have a hard time trying to land the forward-b kill move. ZSS's f-smash has crazy AoE, hitting things behind you, so Squirtle will have to get his ninja dodging on.


Ivysaur (aka Death From Below) Vs
Bowser, advantage: Ivysaur. Bullet Seed is so powerful!! Run up to Bowser, hold B, Bowser takes ~80% damage. What the hell. Since Bowser is such a fat target, he will have a nightmare trying to DI out of Bullet Seed.
Captain Falcon, advantage: ??? Not enough Falcon players.
Charizard, advantage: Charizard. Flamethrower is very easy to use against Ivysaur. Since Ivysaur is such a lightweight, Charizard can easily land a KO after cooking Ivysaur. Ivysaur's only chance is to go for a u-smash KO.
Diddy Kong, advantage: Diddy. Bananas are justice. Jump and throw a banana forward, use a dash attack to hit Ivysaur and collect the banana again, throw it at Ivy again. Ivysaur will have to spam Razor Leaf to deal any damage.
Donkey Kong, advantage: Ivysaur. Bullet Seed, GO! DK can't do anything about Razor Leaf besides evade.
Falco, advantage: Falco. Falco wins here by taking advantage of Ivysaur's horrible recovery. Edgehog ftw.
Fox, advantage: Fox. The hardest thing for Fox here is the approach. Once he's able to attack Ivysaur, it's over (if Ivy has some damage on him). The laser can deliver damage.
Mr. G&W, advantage: ??? Can the bucket catch Razor Leafs? I'm not sure how this one will turn out.
Ganondorf, advantage: neutral. Razor Leaf spam, and if you're lucky enough to get under him, Bullet Seed. Ivysaur will probably end up using a lot of techroll grab attacks on Ganon. Ganon's sweep kick d-smash will hurt Ivy a lot, but he's too slow to use it often.
Ice Climbers, advantage: neutral. Ivysaur's f-tilt will work great for slicing these two. Bullet Seed isn't as effective, because if one of the two get free, they get a free hammer attack on Ivy. Razor Leaf is useful, but the usefulness of it is negated by IC's ice block projectile.
Ike, advantage: neutral. Ivysaur is quick enough to avoid Ike's attacks while attacking. Most of the time.
Jigglypuff, advantage: Ivysaur. Jigglypuff is a floaty character. Floaty characters die easily by being shot straight up. Ivysaur's u-smash is the strongest in the game. Jigglypuff is the lightest weight character. Game.
King Dedede, advantage: King Dedede. Ivysaur has a surprisingly hard time approaching Dedede. Obviously Bullet Seed will be your prime advantage, but getting close enough to use it is another matter. Razor Leaf bounces uselessly through the minions, and if you try to get close, Ivy ends up eating a hammer.
Kirby, advantage: ??? Not sure about this one.
Link, advantage: ??? I'd rather use Squirtle.
Lucario, advantage: ??? Bullet Seed beats Lucario's d-air, but what about the land combat?
Lucas, advantage: Lucas. PK Fire equals razor leaf in terms of priority, but PK Fire casts much faster. Ivysaur will have to resort to other attacks. Lucas can easily escape bullet seed. Ivysaur has a horrible recovery and is easily edgeguarded.
Luigi, advantage: ??? The Luigi Missile might be an interesting approach, but I don't know how it'd interact with Ivy's attacks.
Mario, advantage: ??? I don't play against Mario often.
Marth, advantage: Marth. Marth will have to close distance quickly due to Razor Leaf. Once in close distance, Marth has a number of advantages over Ivysaur. Dragon Slayer (f-smash) will annihilate Ivy, and Marth can quickly move to edgehog, foiling Ivy's tether recovery.
MetaKnight, advantage: Ivysaur. A floaty character! Use Razor Leaf to force him to close distance, use throws and Bullet Seed to rack up damage, then use u-smash to get a sure kill. Horizontal smashes are useless against MetaKnight unless the hit stun lasts long enough for him to be wiped out.
Ness, advantage: Ness. PK Fire absolutely owns Ivysaur. Razor Leaf isn't going to help you here. Ness can combo PK Fire to baseball bat f-smash easy, devastating Ivysaur.
Peach, advantage: ??? I don't play against competent Peaches much.
Pikachu, advantage: neutral. Pikachu will probably refrain from using arial attacks unless Ivy jumps first. Projectile spamathon.
Pikmin & Olimar, advantage: neutral. Razor Leaf doesn't cut through Pikmin, but Pikmin are a limited projectile. Olimar is more likely to run up to Ivysaur and toss him around with his superior throw. Olimars are never approaching by air, so Ivy's u-smash isn't likely going to get much use.
Pit, advantage: Pit. Pit is fast, has an insane projectile, and nearly infinite recovery. Not to mention, he has two skills that deflect projectiles. Pit's f-smash comes out so fast, you can't react to it at all. You also can't punish Pit when he recovers from a missed smash since he has barely any lag. Blah.
R.O.B., advantage: neutral. Razor Leaf can stop gyros, but that doesn't mean Ivy's safe from lasers. ROB is very susceptible to Bullet Seed, though watch out for ROB's d-smash; it's like Shiek's d-smash from melee (fast, easy to hit, damaging, knockbacktastic, minimal lag).
Samus, advantage: Samus. Homing missiles can be shot from higher ground so Razor Leaf can't intercept them. If you're under Samus, she'll probably drop some bombs for you to play with. The charge cannon will destroy Ivy at low percentages. Samus also has a better throw and aerial combat ability.
Shiek, advantage: neutral. Shiek's f-tilt combo works marginally well against Ivy. Use Razor Leafs to force Shiek in the air, then try to get some hits in with either Bullet Seed or u-smash.
Snake, advantage: neutral. Ivy might have a hard time dealing damage. Snake will likely keep trying to run away, throwing nades and planting explosives. Remember that Ivy's up-b is also a great attack.
Sonic, advantage: Ivysaur. Sonic's rolls have such horrible priority. Ivy's have an easy time spamming projectiles and using grabs.
Squirtle, advantage: Ivysaur. Razor Leaf forces Squirtle to keep mobile. Ivysaur's u-smash will absolutely annihilate a Squirtle. Hell, even Ivysaur's f-smash could wreck a Squirtle.
Toon Link, advantage: ??? Not sure.
Wario, advantage: ??? Probably in Wario's favor. Wario's air game could throw Ivy way off. Wario can easily be grabbed while on the hog.
Wolf, advantage: Wolf. Wolf's strong ground-based attacks will hurt Ivy. Plus, Wolf has a reflector.
Yoshi, advantage: ??? Yoshi turns in to an egg and rolls off the stage.
Zelda, advantage: neutral. Zelda's attacks all have range, priority, and disjointed hitboxes. The idea here is to play mind games with Razor Leaf so Zelda keeps miscasting the deflection spell.
Zero Suit Samus, advantage: ZSS. This is a horrible matchup for Ivysaur. ZSS's forward-b will murder Ivy.


Charizard (aka Stock Tank) Vs
Bowser, advantage: neutral. Oddly enough, Bowser has a better fire breath than you. Use Rock Smash.
Captain Falcon, advantage: ??? You are a huge target for the knee. Wait, does the knee still do damage?
Diddy Kong, advantage: Charizard. Diddy has a problem knocking others off, as he has lousy knockback. You should have plenty of time to cook him. If the Diddy is all about banana spamorama, you can use n-air to do a lazy but effective approach.
Donkey Kong, advantage: ??? Not sure. Charizard will probably have his lights knocked out.
Falco, advantage: ??? I haven't tried this matchup, mainly because I fear Falco's speed. Charizard will probably end up using a lot of miserable d-smashes.
Fox, advantage: ??? See above.
Mr. G&W, advantage: Mr. G&W. G&W's b-air does silly silly silly amounts of damage to Charizard. Not to mention, it has sick knockback. Charizard's slowness will be his undoing.
Ganondorf, advantage: Charizard. Charizard can keep a nice distance from Ganon. Although Ganon has better arial attacks, Charizard's land game will give him the edge. Fire breath ftw.
Ice Climbers, advantage: neutral. ICs are fast and bothersome, but a lot of Charizard's attacks have a huge area of effect and can hit both of them. ICs can chaingrab Charizard easily.
Ike, advantage: neutral. Ike's sword will crush you. Fire breath is useful enough to balance this matchup. That, and Charizard can take a sword in the gut and keep fighting.
Ivysaur, advantage:
Jigglypuff, advantage:
King Dedede, advantage: King Dedede. Good luck approaching him. If you do get in range, don't let him grab you. If Dedede grabs you, you lose a stock. Better strategy: switch to Squirtle.
Kirby, advantage: neutral. Kirby's hammer is a serious threat in this matchup, because he can usually land it. Avoid his special attacks and you can counter with something hard hitting.
Link, advantage: neutral. Annoying matchup, but the Gale Boomerang will actually pull you closer to Link. Use glide to close distance and to avoid arrows. The clawshot will be hard to avoid if you don't have your aggression on.
Lucario, advantage: ??? I haven't played this matchup much.
Lucas, advantage: Lucas. Lucas's PK Thunder is ridiculously effective against large targets, since it can hit them multiple times. PK Fire will keep blasting Charizard back, and Psi Magnet will absorb the fire breath. Psi Magnet can also be used to knock Charizard off the stage.
Luigi, advantage: ??? Not sure, but I think Charizard has the advantage here.
Mario, advantage: ??? See above.
Marth, advantage: neutral. Charizard's fire breath will really give Marth a hard time, since he has no ranged attacks.
MetaKnight, advantage: ??? I play Charizard the least out of the three Pokemon, and as such, I don't know how a lot of matches feel. Someone else can fill the blanks.
Ness, advantage: Ness. I thought Charizard was supposed to be resistant to fire? Nope. PK Fire is hard to escape with Charizard. And then you eat the bat.
Peach, advantage: ??? I haven't seen this character since Melee.
Pikachu, advantage: Charizard. Charizard's reach and attack power beat Pikachu. Pikachu's down-b Thunder has potential to turn the tables of this match quickly; evade it.
Pikmin & Olimar, advantage: Olimar. Olimar plays too strong a ground game for Charizard to beat. Charizard is also a flying type Pokemon? It's a shame his arial attacks are slow and limited range. If Charizard and Olimar have some distance between them, Olimar will probably toss some Pikmin. If Charizard closes distance, Olimar will probably respond with his quick ranged grab or ranged smash. I have no idea how a Charizard can beat a defensive Olimar.
Pit, advantage: Pit. This character is stupidly powerful. Bow spam means you can't keep distance with Pit. If Charizard gets thrown by Pit, he'll likely be eating either a follow up u-air or a smash attack. Hyphen smashing u-air with Pit will wreck Charizard, even if he's on the ground. Oh, and he can reflect the fire. And recover from almost any situation. And his swords have higher priority than most of Charizard's attacks. And his bow attacks refresh all of his other attacks. Grah.
R.O.B., advantage: ??? I think ROB would ruin Charizard with gyros, but I'm not sure if Charizard could wreck ROB.
Samus, advantage: Samus. Samus's fat missles are the perfect thing to spam in this situation. That, and the charge-up plasma cannon. Charizard will have to close distance while dodging a barrage of projectiles, and every time he fails to dodge one, he gets flung back and has to try again.
Shiek, advantage: Shiek. Using only just Shiek's forward tilt A, you can rack up ~60% damage and finish with a u-smash to send Charizard off. Shiek's f-tilt is like Bullet Seed, except it hits whatever is in front of you and slowly lifts them. Shiek can also outrun Charizard and constantly restock needles.
Snake, advantage: ??? You can easily take out land mines with fire breath, but you'll probably be eating guided missles in the meanwhile. I don't know if this one is neutral or not.
Sonic, advantage: Charizard. Sonic gets roasted in this matchup. Charizard does well against other characters who have lousy priority in their attacks. Charizard doesn't need to land many hits to end this match. Sonic will have to constantly be running around, waiting to strike whenever an opportunity presents itself, all while baiting the enemy in to doing bad attacks.
Squirtle, advantage: Charizard. Rock smash is useless here. Squirtle can DI out of fire breath quickly. That's about all Squirtle has on Charizard. Squirtle has to deal a LOT of damage to Charizard to budge him, while all Charizard has to do is land a couple attacks in and Squirtle goes flying.
Toon Link, advantage: Toon Link. Projectile hell. TL's boomerang is evil, plus, some TL's use fancy techniques like double-arrow-short-hop and such. TL's b-air can really punish a Charizard, and everyone knows what his d-air is capable of.
Wario, advantage: Charizard. Wario is fat and floaty who is all about air control
Wolf, advantage: ??? I have no idea, but Wolf seems powerful enough to score a win here.
Yoshi, advantage: ??? Yoshi eats Charizard who turns in to an egg and falls to his doom.
Zelda, advantage: Zelda. She can easily get sweet-spotted kicks in on your dragon ***, and then punish your lack of fire resistance with ranged attacks. Think you can beat her in melee combat? Mind the sparkles. Oh hell, you got kicked again, trying to mind the sparkles.
Zero Suit Samus, advantage: ZSS. Only use Charizard against ZSS if your damage is already high (go go stock tank). You might be able to get some damage in with fire, but you're more likely going to be eating electric whip death.

 

[Earthbound360]

Actually, Ness has an advantage over Lucas and Ganondorf.
Check out Aevins "Mother's Boys" FAQ on their matchups

 

[DwaynBibad]

Match Up Chart Analysis (Please fix this!)

Alright, first off I like to say that I do believe this Match Up chart is very important to the community, and the work that must go into it is rigorous. I also want to thank the OP for taking in the feedback of the other posters as best they can.

That said I have a lot of grievances against this Chart, I think the best way to show what I mean is to simply break it down into a logical format.

Each section is in order from best to worse as displayed by the numbers of Xs and Checks on the chart.
Match Up Chart Beta 1.3 breakdown

Best Match Ups (mostly advantages, only one or no disadvantages)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Falco
Zelda
Squirtle
Zamus
Ivysaur

Good Match Ups (majority good match ups overall)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meta Knight
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wario
Lucas

Decent Match Ups (more advantages over disadvantages)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Samus
Ness
Rob
Pit
Marth
Mario
Game & Watch
Pikmin & Olimar

Neutral Match Ups (same advantages/disadvantages)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yoshi
Shiek
Fox
Kirby
Donkey Kong

Bad Match Ups (more disadvantages than advantages)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snake
Link
Luigi
Chariizard
Lucario
Sonic
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Diddy Kong
Gannondorf
Ike
King DeDeDe

Worse Match Ups (All disadvantages, no advantages)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peach
Bowser

totals
"X"/"check" marks = 146 (each) "?"=12 "~"=17


I'm just posting what's listed, I'm not trying to fudge anything, and I'm letting you guys decide what's up with character portion of this chart.

My biggest grievance is simply number of X/check marks (assuming there's an check for every X). Knowing that this chart is a work in progress, shouldn't most of the labels be listed under ("?" ) disputed or ("~") neutral? I'm saying that unless the advantages of one character over the other is blatantly clear it shouldn't be checked or X'd at all, but left disputed. I've seen edits where some X's have been changed to "?" which is totally doing the process backwards imo.

Another thing is that there's clearly no rounding principle applied to this chart. It makes sense for speed reasons to not debate the hard values of how badly one match up is vs another, but on the other hand, a chart with no numerical values should always apply the rounding logic rule for accuracy. If the match ups have clearly a value of 5 or less, it should be marked as disputed, or not at all. Only the 5+ advantages/disadvantages should be marked they are more obvious. This way, the Match Up chart might actually make a little sense.

Last thing I want to mention is that even though it seems like a community project initially, the actual updating of the chart is done by only one or two individuals with clear biases on their choices of input.

 

[DwaynBibad]

Match Up Chart Analysis (Please fix this!)

I think it's clever how the names for Mario and Wario are switched, and the alternate name for Zamus

Anyways, I have to adjust the text of my chart to adjust to April Fools

 

[matthewdw94*]

Hmmm... I'm not sure if Diddy would be neutral against olimar or have an advantage. I'm leaning toward him having an advantage.

 

[IvanEva]

It's a nice chart but I lol'd at bowser having a disadv to half of the cast and no adv whatsoever, he's not that bad, lol.

Well, I was thinking of adding Sandbag to the chart just so Bowser doesn't feel too bad...

Just kidding. It took forever but I finally ran into something positive being said about him (that he has an advantage over Ike) in the Bowser thread. Now we wait and see if any Ike players will shoot it down.

You're missing a ton of checks in Snake's row

Who and why?

Alright, first off I like to say that I do believe this Match Up chart is very important to the community, and the work that must go into it is rigorous. I also want to thank the OP for taking in the feedback of the other posters as best they can.

My biggest grievance is simply number of X/check marks (assuming there's an check for every X). Knowing that this chart is a work in progress, shouldn't most of the labels be listed under ("?" ) disputed or ("~") neutral? I'm saying that unless the advantages of one character over the other is blatantly clear it shouldn't be checked or X'd at all, but left disputed. I've seen edits where some X's have been changed to "?" which is totally doing the process backwards imo.

Another thing is that there's clearly no rounding principle applied to this chart. It makes sense for speed reasons to not debate the hard values of how badly one match up is vs another, but on the other hand, a chart with no numerical values should always apply the rounding logic rule for accuracy. If the match ups have clearly a value of 5 or less, it should be marked as disputed, or not at all. Only the 5+ advantages/disadvantages should be marked they are more obvious. This way, the Match Up chart might actually make a little sense.

Last thing I want to mention is that even though it seems like a community project initially, the actual updating of the chart is done by only one or two individuals with clear biases on their choices of input.

First, thanks for the, ummm, thanks?

The reason that everything isn't set as a default to 'neutral' or 'disputed' is because they're not. In trying to minimize inaccuracies (or blatant lies in a way) I've left the spaces that have no information blank. To say that the Lucario vs. Bowser match-up is neutral because I've come across no information on it would be misleading. Likewise, the 'disputed' tag is more to help people see which match-ups are generally agreed upon and which ones aren't.

That some match-ups go from one designation to a 'disputed' one isn't going backwards. Quite the opposite; it's what the chart is for. Marking all the disputed ones helps to consolidate which match-ups aren't disputed and are thus very likely to be completely accurate.

Lastly, you're correct in your observation of my input biases (although they are pretty minor). After having some people post match-ups based on using computers (and I really mean no offense to them - they definitely had great intentions - but any information based on how the CPU plays cannot be taken at all) I began to get a bit cautious of just taking posts at face value. Generally, wording ("I think", "I believe", "perhaps" - those words scared me off), post count (as it makes you stand out a bit more as someone who's more experienced), and most importantly (by a LARGE margin), defending your claim with explainations get factored into which posts I'll immediately pop into the chart. I've also found that I tend to accidentally skip over posts (I always have so many tabs open that I lose track sometimes), especially as I'm checking around some of the character threads.

I'll try to be more open from here on. Links to character match-up threads are always really cool as well.

 

[Trozz]

Arg, bloody April Fools. My post is so confusing.

Notice that our goofy green dino (Yosh) has absolutely NO data on him.
No love.

 

[DwaynBibad]

Darn someone destroyed my post, it took me 2hrs to make that chart ;_;.

Anyway, it's your chart and you're gonna make the however you want regardless of what anybody says.
But your chart says something like Ice_Climbers has the best match ups overall, even better than M_arth. Strong characters like P_each are at the absolute bottom, and L_ucas can beat down on almost half the cast.

If you're trying to state that somehow through your logical process, this is what the community has agreed on, I'd have to say that's a bunch of bologna.

And you can make the argument that it's still a work in progress, but a work in progress doesn't have to mean completely inaccurate.

Does anybody agree, or understand what I'm trying to say?
If the Match Up process made accuracy more of a priority, then it wouldn't look like the way it does right now.

edit: If the main reason really is due to insufficient data, then I would have to agree with some of the others that this Match Up project be put on hold. At least until enough data is available to build a chart that makes some logical sense.

 

[Icy_Eagle]

Yaoi is amazing, no doubt about that. However, as I'm sure most Yaoi players would agree (and many posts in the Yaoi threads strongly support this) he is at a disadvantage against projectile spammers. Claus' PK Fire can be a difficult thing for Yaoi to get past and PK Thunder will always hit a Yaoi unless blocked. Melee was made in such a way that camping is very much possible. Yaoi rocks, yes, but he has to go through hell against a Claus (well, not hell, but he's still has to work harder than against many others).

lol aprils fools are too good

 

[Subach]

BOWSER, a slow, big, combo-able character is an unfavorable match up for Spamus?

Are you freaking kidding me?

Also, Marth Marth Marth Marth.

 

[Yuna]

Why did you bother making the chart if you yourself admit to not being very knowledgable about Brawl? Also, Marth having bad matchups against Bowser and King DeDeDe? Or Lucas for that matter.

Bowser with an advantage against all of those people?

I think it'd be better if you just started a general Matchup Discussion Thread to get people talking about it (which they apparently have).

 

[xilez]

Yuna your reading the chart wrong...

 

[DiasFlac]

Why did you bother making the chart if you yourself admit to not being very knowledgable about Brawl? Also, Marth having bad matchups against Bowser and King DeDeDe? Or Lucas for that matter.

Bowser with an advantage against all of those people?

I think it'd be better if you just started a general Matchup Discussion Thread to get people talking about it (which they apparently have).

Can't they just do that in the tier list discussion thread?

 

[Carouselambra]

i agree, it's too early, but it couldn't hurt.

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say wolf > yoshi (my 1v1 main)
cause yoshi looks bored and lonely on that chart

i haven't found any truly decisive matchups in his favor so i'll wait on those

 

[IvanEva]

BOWSER, a slow, big, combo-able character is an unfavorable match up for Spamus?.

For April Fools I put Bowser and Jiggly having an advantage against most characters. I thought it'd be obvious... (of course, then I couldn't change it because Smash Boards wouldn't work)

Why did you bother making the chart if you yourself admit to not being very knowledgable about Brawl? Also, Marth having bad matchups against Bowser and King DeDeDe? Or Lucas for that matter..

My saying that I'm not terribly knowledgeable was more of a humble thing. The Dedede match-up info was from somebody else and wasn't disputed (I think) until now (I'll add that) and the Lucas one is disputed as well.

 

[Nacht004]

Ok, I've played Lucario extensively, immensely, as my main since the game came out and here are my observations on Character Matchups. If I say Advantage, or Disadvantage it means Lucario has the advantage or disadvantage against that character. Additionally I'll write a small sentence to why if it's unclear:

Bowser - Advantage, while Bowser is heavy and powerful, the attack patterns are forseeable, and Lucario has much better spacing with relatively easy approaches.
Captain Falcon - Advantage, The old captain of melee would have been an issue, however brawl's captain is another story. With forseeable knees that are hard to plant now, and relatively low damages, Lucario can take the captain head on.
Charizard - Advantage, With low attack speed and easy readings, Lucario can easily space him and approach with strong attacks.
Diddy Kong - Even, Diddy has a decent mind game and can be hard to approach with bananas. The trick is the aerial game for this.
Donkey Kong - Disadvantage, while it can still be done, the fact the DK is able to pull off very powerful hits that are faster then Lucarios mostly, puts him in the back seat and at a stable disadvantage until higher percents when Lucario hits harder.
Falco - Even, the chain grab doesn't work on him which is nice, thankfully. However the shine throw can throw a Lucario game off if not careful and Falco has great distancing and spacing options just like him. It's a hard fight against an experienced player....Trust me.
Fox - Even, Fox can spam up damage for Lucario and has some hurting moves, he's also able to quickly pull away from Lucario as he wants, but Lucario is able to push against him too and do great knockback and hurt him.
Ganondorf - Advantage, basically see my explanation for Bowser.
Ice Climbers - Advantage, You have better options against them and the approach is simple against them. Grabs aren't as effective but force palm is wonderful and so are some other things
Ike - Advantage, you can actually gimp kill Ike at 60-70 by throwing him forward at ledge and consistently approach with Fair, far enough to kill him without much fear for your own life. Spacing is simple.
Ivysaur - Advantage, Ivysaur while poweful and combo-able, has less in terms of spacing issues than Lucario and is pretty easy to spam against and gimp kill taking that ledge.
Jigglypuff - Advantage, the Aerial game is tough but luckily the puff ball is so light that she doesn't become an overt issue.
King Dedede - Even, with similar spamming and spacing options, King Dedede can be hard to approach at times, but luckily Lucario can't be chain grabbed due to floatiness.
Kirby - Disadvantage, Kirby owns the aerial game and can have a very difficult approach against him unless on land.
Link - Advantage, Link has some nice spacing options to leave himself able, but lacks good spam moves and an aerial game that leaves some to the imagination.
Lucario - Even...obviously...
Lucas - Disadvantage, Lucas is just a hard kid to kill, with hard approaches, and strong combos and kill moves, Lucas is just...a *****...
Luigi - Even, Luigi has some good strength and power to him, as well as decent spacing, whereas Lucario has better options there and can just overall kill a little bit easier IMO against Luigi.
Mario - Advantage, Mario's cape is slower and he's really just easy to read and have better spacing options against him.
Marth - Even, If you're a good Lucario, you know you space better then Marth, however Marth kills easier than Lucario does. It's a really tough fight at times, but the two of them are very even I would say. Lucario's grab game is better definitely.
Metaknight - Disadvantage, he's so fast and can kill well vertically that he's a huge issue for Lucario. Approach can be difficult until higher percents when Aura sphere has more priority.
Mr. Game & Watch - Advantage, G&W is so much better then melee, but can be stopped by Lucario with a lack of distance options that are effective, and an aerial game that's just crushed by Lucario.
Ness - Even, Ness has good options of keep away and a great mind game. His spacing is harder to do and thanks to light damage he often gives, it can rack it up for Lucario and make Lucario stronger therein. Both feel about the same in weight and overall power. Lucario's got a better aerial game, but Ness has a better land game. Absorption of Force Palm sucks.
Olimar - Advantage. Between being able to gimp, and also able to double team pikmin off of him, he's able to quickly space and nerf the diminutive captain.
Peach - Even, a decent projectile game and aerial game leave the match up in the air to better readings and whatnot.
Pikachu - Even, Pikachu is strong, and can rack up damage decently, but Lucario can space better and if wise is able to kill the Pikachu without many issues.
Pit - Even, while Pit can keep his distance through spamming, Lucario can make a viable approach, and because of low kill moves, Pit can rack up some damage and give Lucario a strong advantage in the killing department
R.O.B. - Disadvantage, ROB can keep better distance if he wants, and get closer in if he wants. It's a VERY difficult approach versus, but sometimes you can catch the player offguard.
Samus - Advantage, While Samus has some interesting things, including her Zair, and good projectiles, closing in against Samus leaves her with little to do, plus the aerial game doesn't match up quite as well from what I've seen.
Shiek - Even, Sheik's kill moves are harder to get now, but kills well vertically at higher percents. Lucario though by the time Sheik is able to rack that damage up, can probably kill Shiek easily. Spamming Aura Spheres helps here.
Snake - Disadvantage, Snake has many strong options to work with him, and can also kill well in any direction. Snake can truly take dish it out against Lucario...it sucks if you fight a good one.
Sonic - Advantage, better spacing options against Sonic and just a lack of power behind Sonic's punches cause Lucario to just abuse him.
Squirtle - Disadvantage, a bad aerial game match, which is bad news for Lucario. Although he can be killed since he's light, Squirtle just combos so well and can do so much against lucario, and worst case scenario, he can switch out if he's in danger at high percents.
Toon Link - Disadvantage, this mother is fast, and sadly very capable of wrecking house against Lucario, he's got a bad approach against him, and unless you can get inside or at a safe range distance TL can pull him apart. Best strategy is to spam the aura spheres and hope you can make hit and run approaches.
Wario - Even, Wario can be tough to approach especially with that bike of his, but if you work up your grab game, and force palm, he can be matched. As you close in on 100%, you are at equal power, equivacally.
Wolf - Even, roughly the two of them have the same attack speed, and pretty even in spacing options. Wolf kills easier then Lucario, but Lucario is able to gimp Wolf easier by playing heavy into the air game.
Yoshi - Advantage, Yoshi doesn't have much going for him against lucario, bad spacing options, and an aerial game that is subpar.
Zelda - Even, The spacing is a bit simpler except the dair is virtually useless which can really mix up a lot of peoples games. Zelda kills simpler, but Lucario can combo better in that sense.
Zero Suit Samus - Even, while she has just as much range as the Lucario and is almost able to kill easier, by the time she gets to the same damage degree, he's able to kill as well.

 

[choknater]

For Ice Climbers

(for credibility, I was a great IC pro in Melee and I just recently won a Brawl tournament using Dedede and Ice Climbers)

I normally don't like to put huge inputs in, so here's some small ones:

Game & Watch counters IC's
Metaknight ***** IC's
IC's still counters sheik.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna your reading the chart wrong...

No, you are.

For April Fools I put Bowser and Jiggly having an advantage against most characters. I thought it'd be obvious... (of course, then I couldn't change it because Smash Boards wouldn't work)

My saying that I'm not terribly knowledgeable was more of a humble thing. The Dedede match-up info was from somebody else and wasn't disputed (I think) until now (I'll add that) and the Lucas one is disputed as well.

I see. You can never tell with these boards as there actually are people who would (and have) claim outlandish things such as a "Yoshi counters Ike" or something equally inane.

 

[Nacht004]

Ok, my big issue with this chart right now is that there are way too many Xs and not enough Evens. Case in projection: Bowser. Bowser has a lot more even or advantage matchups then he should have those disadvantages, he's got little lag on his attacks, heavy weight, decent recovery, and very powerful. He's not the only one, but I think that these matchups have been made thus far (mostly, not in all cases) but with some bias. I even may have taken some bias into account with my own Lucario matchups, though I don't believe so. I went over them with a few of the other people I play with (2 of which are pretty much pros) and yea, even then of the 39 characters we list, I had 14 advantages, 16 Evens, and 9 disadvantages (see above post for details). But yea, I'm looking at this list, and Bowser is in my top 5, and he is not nearly as disadvantaged as that.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Well, as A pit main, there is one gap in his chart I can confidently say can be filled.

Pit > Samus

Pit throughs a wrench in her main form of offense, her projectiles, making the use of them more limited and requiring much more thought behind it. Pits arrows shoot faster if fired continously being able to nullify samus projectiles (besides a charged shot) mid flight in addition the obvious use of his two reflectors (which of course does reflect the charged shot). This puts samus in a position where melee is somewhat more valuable to her, and while she is no dud there, her floaty-ness makes her more vunerable to pits main kill move(s). Samus isnt completly outdone though. She is one of the better characters to gimp Pits up B and using zair wisely can really pressure pit espeically again when he is recovering and forced to use up B. However, I feel this doesnt outweight Pits advantages in the match up.

 

[Trozz]

I'd rather see what matchups are good for beating Pit down.

 

[zeionut]

so wat would u guys say bout wolf vs marth or toonlink
from my travels it said wolf counters marth then i read that marth counters wolf and the same for toonlink
toonlink counters wolf then wolf counters toonlink, i dont get it

 

[zeionut]

o yes and wat bout marth vs pit??
doesnt pit counter marth?

 

[ComradeSAL]

G&W < Ike

G&W has the same problems that metaknight has: he's an extremely light character who has no good approaches against an Ike that is spacing properly. Since G&W can't camp, it's a huge uphill battle because Ike can regularly kill you before you break 100 damage.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik > King Dedede

Dedede has strong ****, but Sheik can chain ftilts into usmash/utilt/grab for major damage at a wide range of low-mid percents, and she can actually follow up from her throws into aerials against Dedede. Her needles kinda trade with Dedede's Waddles...

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Does that say... Falcon > R.O.B?

Actually...Falcon > ANYONE?


LOL

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I have no idea how you got the idea that Falco and Fox counter Wario, dude. I'm ranked 8th in MLG's first brawl ladder and I've faught TONS of Foxs and Falcos. They don't bring anything to the table that could possibly make Wario at a disadvantage, at all. Really at all.

Wario does have the advantage over Ike. Ike mains who haven't fought a good Wario will just not understand why.

Wario's disadvantages from my knowledge as of now should be: Metaknight, Marth, Olimar.
Wario's advantages as of now should be: Ike, Bowser, Peach, Sonic, Samus, ZSS, Falcon, Zelda, Ganondorf
Wario's even matchups: Wolf, ToonLink, Dedede

So, um, you're basing these things off ONLINE matches? Gg dude, you can't base **** around that, because it's so laggy and has delay. How do you know the players couldn't dominate you in an actual match, without all this lagging BS with delayed input?

Don't base crap off Wifi matches, since Wifi is a completely different game.

 

[Cosmo!]

game and watch is probably at a disadvantage to toon link and olimar. probably even matchups with meta knight, marth, snake, and link. everyone else game and watch most likely has the advantage over.

wow i came here to post EXACTLY this, though I think ike vs g&w is an even match too