Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Thinkaman]

Yes, I remembered to put it in.

I also updated the changelist, fixing some trivial typos and highlighting the biggest 25 or so changes in yellow.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I like how Ganondorf's buffs encourage him to use more throws besides F-throw.

Discrepancies on list:

-You listed straight angled F-tilt twice for Donkey Kong. One of them I assume was meant to be the down angled F-tilt.
-What do you mean by DK's grab releaser animation being sped up?
-I'm pretty certain I saw a buff for Ganondorf's B-throw in terms of knockback when watching the video. It isn't supposed to kill until like 180% lol.
-spelling mistakes on Zelda and Wolf's section

 

[PKNintendo]

I like how Ganondorf's buffs encourage him to use more throws besides F-throw.

Discrepancies on list:

-You listed straight angled F-tilt twice for Donkey Kong. One of them I assume was meant to be the down angled F-tilt.
-What do you mean by DK's grab releaser animation being sped up?
-I'm pretty certain I saw a buff for Ganondorf's B-throw in terms of knockback when watching the video. It isn't supposed to kill until like 180% lol.
-spelling mistakes on Zelda and Wolf's section

Grab release combo's maybe?

 

[Big O]

I like how Ganondorf's buffs encourage him to use more throws besides F-throw.

Discrepancies on list:

-You listed straight angled F-tilt twice for Donkey Kong. One of them I assume was meant to be the down angled F-tilt.
-What do you mean by DK's grab releaser animation being sped up?
-I'm pretty certain I saw a buff for Ganondorf's B-throw in terms of knockback when watching the video. It isn't supposed to kill until like 180% lol.
-spelling mistakes on Zelda and Wolf's section

Increases to damage also increase the knockback growth of the move (shield damage, shield push, and shieldstun are also affected by damage). Ganon's Uthrow, Bthrow, and Dsmash are a lot stronger now as a result.

DK's grab release as the holder was sped up so that he won't get hit/footstoooled for free after cargo releasing someone in the air. Ground breaks in general leave you in a frame disadvantage now. The changelist includes 3/4 ground break lag on 3/5 air break lag in core changes.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm bringing bBrawl to the local bi-weekly on Friday.

Get hype!

 

[Soid]

ok first off i gotta congrat the people that made bbrawl bc of their effort and hard work it seems very thoght throu, but u needed alot more facts imo about how pro gamers felt about the metagame, ill start with my main lucario u destroyed his usual initial playstile more nockback on his atks=no usual follow ups, link is awesome but it needs a bit of a tweek in recoverie.... i think non of the characters deserved to be nerfd really u could just done the rest a bit of a boost example what u did to capt falco and ike, u should not have messed with the cg either again thats only imo....nly for infinites i guess, and thats all i gotta say 4 now ill do some more playtesting and post again....


the Tnad thing on mk is good tho....

yeah im whit him

 

[IceDX]

I'm honestly not having any trouble using Lucario, and I've been maining him for a full year in competitive scenes.

I dind say i had trouble its just that hes atks have a bit more knockback to them and he would have been better off just left alone or with a bit of improvement but just in hes recoverie

 

[MK26]

wait what? all ground release animations for the person being grabbed have been sped up? so now dk has a 15-frame advantage upon being released?

also, i seriously think that ike should have gotten the same treatment on his side-b as falcon did on his...

also, if you guys ever feel like buffing any of kirby's moves, nair would appreciate the b+ treatment...it'd be really useful for eating through vertical-moving up-bs and moves like pika's side-b if it...actually hit you somewhere. It's got the priority, but there isnt enough of a benefit for getting a hit off.

all in all, very good job with this. allowing it to work without hbc is a great plus.

p.s. if other characters got their neutral-b moves changed, were any of these changes applied to kirby's copied moves as well?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, DK's advantage for being ground released is huge. Don't let it happen; throw him!

Ike and Captain Falcon had very different needs. If Ike's Quick Draw still entered helpless on whiff, it wouldn't be all that useful.

Kirby's moves are treated as separate moves. The hitbox code, for reasons mysterious to me, simply refuses to acknowledge Kirby powers that are also projectiles so we couldn't make them all the same even if we wanted to. In light of this, we left most of them unchanged, but a few are better than their original versions (the powers from Yoshi, Zelda, Marth, and G&W... though as we all know, G&W's is a trade-off since Kirby's Chef power is an energy projectile, just now an energy projectile with a strong pan hit).

Lucario's overall damage racking game is definitely better, especially when you consider that most of the moves buffed weren't exactly combo moves (smashes, dash attack, ftilt). The only one I see really reducing his follow-up game is dtilt, and even that shouldn't be too bad. His bread and butter of up close damage racking, jab and utilt, are unchanged.

The chaingrabs have a lot of motivations. For one, there is really no way to fix King Dedede's infinite on Donkey Kong without pretty much removing King Dedede's chaingrab. For two, the chaingrab is blatantly broken on certain stages we want to be legal and have literally nothing else wrong with them (such as Mario Circuit). For three, even that aside, they're really polarizing. With King Dedede, almost the entire 1/3 of the cast who he can't chaingrab has a good matchup against him while almost the entire 2/3 he can has a bad matchup (with at least 5 characters by my count having hopelessly bad matchups). With Falco, characters like Link who get chaingrabbed for really long times just get screwed. With Pikachu, the only cases there's a chaingrab at all tend to be ridiculous and matchup ruining (versus Fox). Even the shorter ones like Pit's or Peach's are pretty polarizing; they're fair in most matchups, but they are really quite unfair to Bowser in particular (and we do care about Bowser). Some chaingrabs like Wario's only work on Bowser and friends but are super devastating in those matchups; I don't think there's anything but bad coming out of those.

There are still a few shorter chaingrabs in Balanced Brawl (mostly against Bowser), but we gain so much for removing them. Matchups get a lot more fair, we can easily allow more stages, and it's actually possible to balance Bowser without giving him truly drastic changes that would make him broken in the matchups that can't chaingrab him. We have no philosophical objection to chaingrabs (or any other combo; I don't consider a chaingrab different from any other true combo), but it just happened that removing or greatly limiting most of the chaingrabs ended up making the better game.

 

[Big O]

Kirby's copy powers are separate from the characters he copies. If they got a neutral b buff he won't get the buffed neutral b.

Prieviously DK had a 9 frame advantage when he ground breaks so the only difference is he can Dsmash instead of Ftilt but he breaks too far away most of the time to Dsmash anyway.

Edit: Ninja post lol. I type too slow I guess.

 

[Jokercrow]

Thank you guys !

For the first time, with your Balanced Brawl, I had fun playing with Captain Falcon. I even won some games with him... : ) I also ad more fun with Ganondorf, Sonic and Link. Haven't tried the other characters.

So thanks a lot !

 

[Ryusuta]

I forgot how cute Harley was.

 

[Meru.]

PAL works great, thank you!

About Peach:
I haven't played for a long time, but I think her Fthrow should still be a bit stronger. It kills very late, even for Peach. Her other buffs are great though. Make her better, but don't break her.

 

[Ryusuta]

So, wait a minute. Sheik's forward Smash knockback was nerfed, and NONE of her kill moves were buffed? What's the rationalization for that?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i think it was done to promote the use of zelda in the zelda/sheilk combo

 

[Ryusuta]

That's not a very good reason at all. The Pokemon Trainer rationale was iffy (not good) because the original design FORCED you to change, so you needed to use all three. With Zelda/Sheik, they are designed to be able to be played separately if a person wants to and function individually.

This was a very bad change. And yes, I realize I'm very contrary and critical in general.

Edit: Also, you neglected to mention Wario's pummel producing a coin in the changelog. I like that change, hehe.

 

[Linkshot]

This was implemented so that if you want to play only Sheik, you have to put up with having a hard time killing.
Likewise, if you want to play only Zelda, you have to put up with having a hard time racking damage.

If you put time into learning both synchronously, they are deadly.



EDIT: Pokemon Trainer forces you to implement "Your Pokemon fainted. Choose the next." Remember, PT isn't the Pokemon. He's the trainer, and he's using the Pokemon as if he were doing a Pokemon Battle.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Her forward smash is still better than it used to be because the hits link (they didn't before, and Sheik players at higher levels seldom used it). If it were unchanged, it would be a decently fast, high power move that kills well. So, we have Sheik who is a fast, powerful character with basically no weaknesses who could easily rack damage and then just kill with a certain overpowered forward move. This is reminiscent of something, and it's not up to the standard of balance of this project.

Zelda and Sheik "can" be played alone. In internal testing, we saw it done, and the users sometimes won. They definitely have to work harder to win, but they can somewhat overcome their personal really nasty weaknesses. Sheik has the worst overall set of kill moves across the cast (remember she has the BEST overall attack speed), and Zelda's moves in general are just plain awful at controlling space which makes it pretty hard for her to make opportunities (remember she's very powerful once she gets them though). Used together, I have little doubt that Zelda & Sheik are quite powerful in Balanced Brawl, maybe balanced a little higher than the rest of the cast (not much). Alone they're obviously low tier, perhaps the worst two characters with Sheik working a little better alone than Zelda, though not so low that they can't win. There is no other way to do this. If we design Sheik to be good at everything and Zelda to be good at everything, they are broken together. Being good at everything isn't even good design for normal characters...

I know you don't really appreciate the advantages you get from using transforming characters, and that's fine. Everyone values some things more than others, and that's why there are so many different characters. As a player, I place a very high value on zoning with normals, and that's why I could never main someone like Sonic or Fox who relies on speed to make up for an inability in that area. Of course, I'm willing to accept that I do HAVE to outspace people because, when we're in each other's faces, I don't have the speed. I sacrificed my speed for range. With transforming characters, you have to accept that the individual characters are going to struggle at best to function independently. This makes them very hard to learn (they have to learn as many characters as are in the transformation set AND a set of transformation mechanics), and it in general forces all of their strategies to be more complex than average. However, you gain a type of flexibility that the other characters simply don't have; if you're in a bad situation, you can trade in your entire moveset and physics for new ones! If most characters are having trouble getting around something, they just have to dig deep in the other parts of their moveset for something to cope. Transforming characters can just transform and play to a new set of strengths that likely don't have the same issues. It is really completely fine if you don't like this, and it's completely fine if you don't appreciate the advantages. It's just a sign that, as a player, these characters are not for you. There are 33 non-transforming characters who offer the stability you seek, and given your preferences as a player, the flexibility they don't have is a minor sacrifice.

Anyway, now that I hopefully have this behind us...

PAL works great, thank you!

About Peach:
I haven't played for a long time, but I think her Fthrow should still be a bit stronger. It kills very late, even for Peach. Her other buffs are great though. Make her better, but don't break her.

The real question is whether Peach as a whole is weak. We inspected Peach in Brawl pretty carefully, and the job we found Peach had for fthrow was "kill move of last resort" (Samus dash attack, Link uthrow, R.O.B. uthrow, even Meta Knight uthrow). This is a really easy move to land (Peach has good grabs), but it kills later than the kill moves you really want to land... but not so late that it's useless. You try to kill with your other, harder to land stuff (fair, fsmash, usmash), but if you fail, this is what you do instead of taking them to 250% until a turnip finally kills them or something. We powered it up a bit because we decided that it was in the interest of balance if the point where it's "easy" for Peach to kill dropped a bit, but given Peach's design, it is definitely important for it to remain high. She's a fast character with decent priority who is exceptional at racking damage and applying pressure, has a unique form of mobility that is actually quite good, and has both a good long range game and an instant win in pure stall situations with Turnips. The weakness she has to balance all that good stuff is the way she has to rely on a patchwork of tricky moves to score those kills at lower damages. She's also a hard case to balance because we have to be ever vigilant about not making her broken against Ice Climbers and Olimar, two characters she has large natural advantages against.

We are quite interested in hearing about experiences with Peach though. Peach players are a rare breed in our region and, while we do remain confident we did right by Peach, we are definitely interested in really hearing how she does in Balanced Brawl. Of course, the game is static for months; we hope that's a good opportunity to hammer out just where she stands and get a crisp picture of both her matchups and the ultimate functionality of her playstyle.

As an aside to everyone, the coolest change that is undocumented, our big secret, has still never been posted about on the forums. The hint is "Super Mario 64", and I ask that everyone I have personally shown it not give it away. I do hope people find it before too long; it actually has non-trivial gameplay ramifications.

 

[Ryusuta]

This was implemented so that if you want to play only Sheik, you have to put up with having a hard time killing.

Likewise, if you want to play only Zelda, you have to put up with having a hard time racking damage.

This was already the case. You just unnecessarily exacerbated this. The change was not needed for balance at all.

EDIT: Pokemon Trainer forces you to implement "Your Pokemon fainted. Choose the next." Remember, PT isn't the Pokemon. He's the trainer, and he's using the Pokemon as if he were doing a Pokemon Battle.

I don't seem to recall pokemon getting tired and doing reduced damage mid-battle on the Game Boy titles.

 

[GolfDude]

Falcon's Final Smash Issue in BB and B+

I had htis problem with brawl plus nad now im having it with balanced brawl where at the end of captain falcon's final smash the game just freezes after contact with the opposing player is made... any ideas?

 

[Ryusuta]

I know you don't really appreciate the advantages you get from using transforming characters, and that's fine.

Don't patronize me.

With transforming characters, you have to accept that the individual characters are going to struggle at best to function independently.

When you change them so they do, this is absolutely true. In normal gameplay... not so much.

However, you gain a type of flexibility that the other characters simply don't have; if you're in a bad situation, you can trade in your entire moveset and physics for new ones!

And as I've said several times, this is NOT a huge advantage at all. In some cases, both versions of the character do badly in the matchup, so there's no way to minimize the disadvantage. I've said it only about 100 times. This is bad logic, and not how transforming characters actually work.

I main Pokemon Trainer, and use him to great effect. So don't tell me how little I appreciate transforming characters, or how little I know about them.

Anyway, now that I hopefully have this behind us...

Well, in terms of actually doing something about it, yes, you have it well behind you. I don't mention these things with the idea that you'll address them. That would be a bit overly optimistic.

I'm very tireless at debating the point when I get a bad answer, though, so from that standpoint, this isn't behind you.

 

[BG3]

I guess AA is emphasizing the point that both characters are going to be needed in order to implement two transforming characters into one unique character. But, Ryusuta also has a major point explaining that both versions of the character do bad in some matchups, while it is also considered very dumb to try to switch your character in the middle of the match. So, both have very good points. Not sure where to take this, LMAO.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I had htis problem with brawl plus nad now im having it with balanced brawl where at the end of captain falcon's final smash the game just freezes after contact with the opposing player is made... any ideas?

This is a known bug; I believe (but am not sure) it's a side-effect of the frame speed engine. We really can't fix this; I apologize. Here is actually the full list of flat out bugs our codeset produces; I'll have Thinkaman apend it to the changelist whenever he gets a chance.

-Captain Falcon's Final Smash causes a lock.
-Timer items are extremely buggy, cause random teleporting and death.
-Halberd and Rumble Falls scroll during character intros. On Rumble Falls in particular, this is able to cause the Pokemon Trainer to spawn in t-pose.

We apologize for the inconvenience these bugs may cause you, and we are definitely not judgmental over your choice to play with items (we do care about item related bugs). We just plain can't do anything about it.

As per Ryusuta, it's not my fault you hate the core design of your character. I really think you just main the wrong guy. I know I'm not going to convince you at this point, but it's not that we don't listen to people. You were even oddly helpful in a way because dealing with you caused the people who main PT and like him to go more in-depth over issues with switches being punished, which we did address with a much faster Pokemon Change (and slightly faster Z/S transformation), but an insistence that there is not an advantage (and a big one) to switching characters is really just plain ill-informed. You are right that it's possible for it to not help out in "some cases" that usually are a result of a coincidental overlap of weaknesses (standard Brawl Zelda & Sheik versus Mr. Game & Watch) or a result of an overall poor team (standard Brawl Pokemon Trainer), but those issues should be mostly resolved if not entirely. Regardless it neglects "most cases" where that's not true at all (name one character who counters all three of Bbrawl Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard), and remember that you're playing other people, not machines. Even if Zelda doesn't have an abstract better matchup than Sheik against, say, Donkey Kong (totally pulling a character out of thin air; don't read anything into it), the fact that Zelda has such a different playstyle may prove invaluable in defeating a particular Donkey Kong player. You get to play to Zelda's strengths instead of Sheik's now, and while you only have to figure out how to cope with DK's best stuff once, he has to figure out how to cope with your best stuff twice.

To BG3, it's not that dumb to switch in the middle of matches as long as you are decently smart about when in particular. Usually you switch right after landing a somewhat big hit. By the time they get back over to you, you'll be a new character. You can also easily switch after kills totally safely, and Z/S in particular can safely switch at the start of a new stock (PT can't though). If your opponent tries to camp you and just refuses to approach, you can probably just pick a time they're in a particularly inconvenient to approach state and transform on the spot, and by the time they end the commitment of whatever they were doing, react, and run over, you'll have transformed.

 

[Linkshot]

The "getting tired mid-match" is PP. After so many attacks, they run out of PP and can't do anything except Struggle.

 

[ぱみゅ]

As I see, any PT is obliged to switch between pokemons, that means that BB must balance all three of them (even if they have different playstiles). I actually find that point ok.
EDIT: May I'm wrong because I'm not a PT mainer... =S

But on the Z/S, most mainers usually does not switch them because they're actually maining one character (I know it because Zelda is an actual good second for me), but increasing Sheik's kills or Zelda's rackup would make them broken for those who use both of them, also, due to BB's goals, both of them can't be actually balanced, because they'd lose their "uniqueness".
It could be a good point to debate, though, because most mainers have a kind of policy of not switching them, knowing each one has big flawls (and BB is supposed to counter that with the character itself), and not-mainers does (and balancing them would make them have a BIG game changer).

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Actually, I think most Zelda & Sheik mains do switch. At one time, Ankoku's chart tracked Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda & Sheik separately. Zelda & Sheik grew to outrank either individually, and it was decided that tracking either individually was just unfairly hurting the ranking of the main character. It's undeniable that there are many players who do only use one, but I think the largest group would be the people who use both.

Regardless though, use whom you want how you want to use them. I think in the end you'll find the most success using Zelda & Sheik together, but like I said they're not wholly inviable alone. You're making it harder on yourself, but in the end how you play is your own choice.

 

[Ryusuta]

As per Ryusuta, it's not my fault you hate the core design of your character.

It's times like these where it's very difficult to keep from banging my head on the desk as I'm talking to you.

If the "core design" of the character comes at the expense of his functionality, then yes, I think it should be changed. This is the case with Trainer's stamina.

Let me give you a correlation:

In Melee, Pichu hurt himself with almost every move he had. It was the way the character was designed. This coupled by the fact that he was neck-and-neck for being the lightest character in the game meant he was essentially one of the easiest characters to kill.

This was part of the "core design" of Pichu, but it was very unbalanced and made him unviable (in addition to his poor range and killing troubles, but these could have been circumvented without self-damage).

Are you telling me with a straight face that it's unreasonable for a person to want to play Pichu effectively, but absolutely despise this total disadvantage that no other character in the series has to deal with?

On paper, the "trade-off" for PT's stamina is being able to swap between three characters. On paper, the "trade-off" for Pichu was being the smallest target and being very fast. Now, can you honestly tell me that either of these trade-offs seriously aid the characters' overall viability? It's a fundamental flaw in the design. You could choose to buff him in other aspects (as you have chosen to do), but that doesn't change the realities of the character itself.

I really think you just main the wrong guy.

Yes, God forbid I dislike something about a character I main. I should like absolutely every single aspect of my character and never question its design no matter what.

I know I'm not going to convince you at this point, but it's not that we don't listen to people.

Convince me of what? I know that you listen to people. We wouldn't be talking if you didn't.

You're right that you have done very little to convince me that transforming characters have a gigantic advantage simply by being able to transform, and their flaws are thus balanced by that fact. That's not how this game works.

You were even oddly helpful in a way because dealing with you caused the people who main PT and like him to go more in-depth over issues with switches being punished, which we did address with a much faster Pokemon Change (and slightly faster Z/S transformation),

Unless you can shield out of the move or use the respawn invulnerability, it's still punishable. Even more so if the disk takes a moment to load the character.

I'll let this part slide, however, because I haven't played around with it enough on this most recent version to say.

but an insistence that there is not an advantage (and a big one) to switching characters is really just plain ill-informed.

No, it's ****ing not. Even people that agree with you in general disagree with this. You're wrong. Bottom line, period. When people list the pros and cons of a character, being able to change into another one is usually WAY down on the list.

You are right that it's possible for it to not help out in "some cases" that usually are a result of a coincidental overlap of weaknesses (standard Brawl Zelda & Sheik versus Mr. Game & Watch) or a result of an overall poor team (standard Brawl Pokemon Trainer), but those issues should be mostly resolved if not entirely.

You're never going to make every matchup exactly even. Accepting this reality, there is still the very real possibility of skewing matchups by forced transformations in all-disadvantaged situations.

Regardless it neglects "most cases" where that's not true at all (name one character who counters all three of Bbrawl Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard),

That's impossible to assume one way or another at this point because this version just came out.

and remember that you're playing other people, not machines. Even if Zelda doesn't have an abstract better matchup than Sheik against, say, Donkey Kong (totally pulling a character out of thin air; don't read anything into it), the fact that Zelda has such a different playstyle may prove invaluable in defeating a particular Donkey Kong player.

Just how stupid do you think people are? Competitive players aren't going to be thrown off by a change to a different character. Best case scenario, they immediately adapt, because they know how to fight both Zelda AND Sheik, and so they change their play style to face a decent Zelda. WORST case scenario is you get your rear end handed to you because instead of knowing one character really WELL, you play two different characters at sub-par quality.

I would say that this is the case for 90% of Zelda/Sheik dual-players out there. From my experience, most players that try to use both start as Sheik to rack up damage, then change to Zelda for the final blow. Which is alright in theory. In reality, when they switch to Zelda, I know that they're PLANNING on using her to finish me off, so depending on the character, I start spacing and poking like crazy and rack up even MORE damage on her. At that point she either needs to try and close in (which she's horrible at), counter-space (which she does average at best), or Din's Fire spam, which for most characters can be easily fought against. And for the ones that DO have a hard time against Din's Fire, the person should have been playing Zelda in the first place instead of Sheik.

Then it's back to Sheik, and by changing back, I know that they're not going to seriously try for a KO until they change back, which means I can play a lot more aggressively, tilt locks be "darned."

I'll admit that there ARE some very rare people that can use both well, but the very nature of her switching is like flashing a neon sign saying "THIS IS WHEN I'M GOING TO TRY RACKING UP DAMAGE," or "THIS IS WHEN I'M GOING TO TRY AND KILL YOU." And now that Zelda and Sheik are even MORE specialized, this transformation becomes even more predictable to deal with.

To BG3, it's not that dumb to switch in the middle of matches as long as you are decently smart about when in particular. Usually you switch right after landing a somewhat big hit. By the time they get back over to you, you'll be a new character. You can also easily switch after kills totally safely, and Z/S in particular can safely switch at the start of a new stock (PT can't though). If your opponent tries to camp you and just refuses to approach, you can probably just pick a time they're in a particularly inconvenient to approach state and transform on the spot, and by the time they end the commitment of whatever they were doing, react, and run over, you'll have transformed.

Again, I have to play around with the change abilities more, but in Vanilla Vrawl, even Ganondorf could punish a Pokemon Change from most of the way across Final Destination. The big hit thing is debatable (except if I'm Ivysaur against Meta Knight and I'm already fatigued, he's going to see me trying to switch a mile away and simply poke me to death), but not against people playing keep-away; at least in normal play.

 

[thanyou]

Where can I get a .txt file of the North American Version of Balanced Brawl?

 

[Linkshot]

In Melee, Pichu was entirely stronger, faster, and harder to hit than Pikachu, at the cost of damaging himself with certain attacks, and being lighter.

Pichu had a better recovery, a stronger Thunder Shockwave, more damaging Thunder Jolt, stronger Skull Bash, stronger dAir, MUCH stronger fSmash, and a gimping dSmash (which didn't even hurt him!).

Damaging yourself in Melee doesn't matter. The top characters can combo you to hell and back, then off the respawn platform, send you back to hell.

Actually, I want this debate to stop now.

Zelda, like all characters, should be trying to set up the kill. She just kills earlier than Sheik.

Top players will be watching their percents, and already knowing when their opponent is going to attempt to kill. Your opponent switching to Zelda is no different than watching your own damage.

 

[daisho]

Yeah, DK's advantage for being ground released is huge. Don't let it happen; throw him!

Wait... DK gets punished for using a move at 0 %? Because that is basically what you said.

Also... there is a technique that is based on the 1 frame advantage of cargo releases... now that is totally invalid (I did it at least once a game...).

I am overall extremely excited about this project but am angry at this change.

 

[Wavedash Master]

On the Pokemon Trainer debate, this thread might give a good insight of the switching system. Although it was originally implying to Brawl+, I believe this can be applied to Balanced Brawl as well.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229532

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Wait... DK gets punished for using a move at 0 %? Because that is basically what you said.

Also... there is a technique that is based on the 1 frame advantage of cargo releases... now that is totally invalid (I did it at least once a game...).

I am overall extremely excited about this project but am angry at this change.

I was referring to DK's frame advantage when his opponents release him. DK already has +10 frames on the rest of the cast, and the general speed-ups do affect him so it becomes about +15. That is very huge. That is good for DK.

As per his cargo release, I think it's -2 against most of the cast and something like +5 against Ness and Lucas in the final release. It's generally safe to do but not advantageous, and you are better off throwing them. In general, everything grab release related is made unimportant in Bbrawl which is largely for the benefit of Ness, Lucas, and walk-offs/walls (though Wario no longer having gimmick infinites against him is good design IMO).

In general, DK has seen a lot of very particular care, and I can't think of much more exciting than "is no longer caught in an infinite by King Dedede".

The text version of the code files is available for download alongside the .gcts and the archive with everything. Just check the mediafire links if you want it.

 

[thanyou]

The text version of the code files is available for download alongside the .gcts and the archive with everything. Just check the mediafire links if you want it.

Thanks a bunch ^^

 

[daisho]

I was referring to DK's frame advantage when his opponents release him. DK already has +10 frames on the rest of the cast, and the general speed-ups do affect him so it becomes about +15. That is very huge. That is good for DK.

As per his cargo release, I think it's -2 against most of the cast and something like +5 against Ness and Lucas in the final release. It's generally safe to do but not advantageous, and you are better off throwing them. In general, everything grab release related is made unimportant in Bbrawl which is largely for the benefit of Ness, Lucas, and walk-offs/walls (though Wario no longer having gimmick infinites against him is good design IMO).

In general, DK has seen a lot of very particular care, and I can't think of much more exciting than "is no longer caught in an infinite by King Dedede".

The text version of the code files is available for download alongside the .gcts and the archive with everything. Just check the mediafire links if you want it.

I completely misunderstood and I apologize.

I realize there is probably no way to fix Lucas and Ness infinites without changing it on other characters.

As i mentioned before, I am extremely excited about this project (and love the changes my character got, though he got 2 small nerfs) and can't wait to get it started.

On that note I know nothing about hacking or downloading or anything. If anybody would be willing to spend a small amount of time talking me through this on AIM I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's undeniable that there are many players who do only use one, but I think the largest group would be the people who use both.

I know most people does switch, I just said that most mainers use only one.

I think in the end you'll find the most success using Zelda & Sheik together, but like I said they're not wholly inviable alone

Well, in Regular Brawl, MK is the character people use to find more success, and that's why BB was created for, doesn't it?
The goal of this project, as I understood, is to having more success with wathever character you choose to play comfortable, and personally, I like playing Zelda rather much more than Sheik, but playing both means use Sheik the most because she racks up damage and Zelda only for the final blow.

but like I said they're not wholly inviable alone

Even in Regular Brawl they are not.

You're making it harder on yourself, but in the end how you play is your own choice.

Regular Brawl again?


I'm not complaining about your point, I play Zelda because I'm comfortable playing her, that means I must learn how to deal with her flawls (like any other character), and that's okay. But if this project was originally made for play competitively with the same character, why trying convince people to switch them?

 

[The Milk Monster]

I completely misunderstood and I apologize.

I realize there is probably no way to fix Lucas and Ness infinites without changing it on other characters.

As i mentioned before, I am extremely excited about this project (and love the changes my character got, though he got 2 small nerfs) and can't wait to get it started.

On that note I know nothing about hacking or downloading or anything. If anybody would be willing to spend a small amount of time talking me through this on AIM I would greatly appreciate it.

I can link you to the necessary videos/talk you through everything.

 

[Ryusuta]

On another note, I had a minor desynch issue in an online friendly match today. It only happened once, and neither of us is sure how it happened. Basically, I was Falcon, he was Jigglypuff, and we were on Final Destination. I think the last move that happened before the desynch was him doing a dash attack with I almost floor teched, but ended up sliding off the stage and dieing with.

Not sure what caused it, but I'll keep you posted if I can figure it out.

 

[PKNintendo]

In Melee, Pichu was entirely stronger, faster, and harder to hit than Pikachu, at the cost of damaging himself with certain attacks, and being lighter.

In what way? Pichu only had ONE KILL MOVE that was stronger. Being harder to hit with=not that great.
The cost was way, way, way worse. Dealing damage to yourself is terrible. Those tradeoffs were NOT WORTH IT.

Pichu had a better recovery, a stronger Thunder Shockwave, more damaging Thunder Jolt, stronger Skull Bash, stronger dAir, MUCH stronger fSmash, and a gimping dSmash (which didn't even hurt him!).

Yes, he had a better recovery. The stronger Thunder Shockwave didn't make much of a difference. The move wasn't going to KO anyway. A more damaging move by like what, 1%!?! Skull Bash was a terrible move. No questions ask, the amount of charge needed was impossible in 1 vs 1 play. The fmash was only good when sweetspotted.

Damaging yourself in Melee doesn't matter. The top characters can combo you to hell and back, then off the respawn platform, send you back to hell.

It did matter, Pichu has some nasty combo's on Fox, and some decent matchups. Hurting itself releagated it to bottom. No offense but don't spout the things. It makes you look uninformed.



On the case of PT, I remain neutral. I'm sorta leaning on absolutely no stamina but still forced switches, but I'll wait and see how things play out.

 

[koldstare64]

I believe I found an unintended glitch pertaining to Ivysaur, more specifically Vine Whip. You know how during the time between a teather recovery is first used and the time that the teather actually reaches the ledge, that another character can grab onto the ledge (making the teather recovery look like it's going to be successful, but then it just fails when the teather medium reaches the occupied ledge)? Well, if someone does this to Ivysaur, Ivysaur enters a helpless state (which works against the idea of how the new Vine Whip was intended to be used).

EDIT: I can provide a replay of this if needed.

 

[Ryusuta]

It's not a glitch; it was intended to work that way. That's why they specifically said a Vine Whip "not aimed at a ledge" won't put him into a helpless state.