Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Amazing Ampharos]

Just recover low with Ganondorf if you can't make it back with your double jump/side-B easily. Dark Dive has really surprising ledgegrab range and is so effective on hit that it's very risky for opponents to try to stop it. Of course, his recovery is fairly poor regardless, but it's not THAT bad, certainly not bad enough to be character ruining.

Ganon is really a very extreme character; I don't think normal concepts of "characters like X always suck" apply to him. He is overall more powerful than Ike by a non-trivial amount, and he actually has a very good follow-up game after a hit, maybe the best one in the cast (which means his consecutive hit scoring ability is in the domain of Sheik; think about that). Everything else about him that sucks (his lack of safe options, mediocre recovery, poor normal mobility, lack of reliable disjoints, no projectiles) really just stands as a contrast to how ridiculously good those other aspects of him are. The way I know people aren't really seeing him as he stands yet is just because of the domain of comments on him. Everyone who comments on the written change list thinks he isn't really improved how he needs to be. Everyone who just watches the video thinks we made him broken. I think the conclusion is that you really need to play him, and even then, keep in mind that he is a fairly "advanced" character since landing his slow moves requires a lot of precision and prediction, and then landing his techchases to extract the fullness of the rewards his attacks offer requires just as much ability if not more.

 

[Thinkaman]

More personal spoilers: I think currently, Ganon is a little bit better than middle-of-the-pack. Around 15th or so if I had to put a number on it. Playing as or against Ganon is extremely mentally taxing and stressful, kinda like Ice Climbers.

Edit:

I'm not sure if "mentally taxing" is how I'd describe Ganon
so much as terrifying
at least fighting against him
if I'm playing Ganon vs G&W I'm just thinking
"protect me turtle!"

Also, about time I started using this sig, eh?

 

[illinialex24]

Rowland, feel free to IM me or VM (visitor message) me if you need help. Getting an SD card reader or borrowing one works great.

 

[Linkshot]

With the new Wizkick, that turtle is getting shattered, huh?

 

[Thinkaman]

With the new Wizkick, that turtle is getting shattered, huh?

I'm pretty sure the turtle is so disjointed that the repeated hits might be able to go AROUND the wizkick hitbox... Could be wrong though.

Time to fix minor typos in changelist...

 

[Zezima0123]

I've got just one short question:

What is the Sub-stage Select?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Those two codes allow you to select individual forms of Spear Pillar (Pokemon) and Shadow Moses Island (background machines). The button combinations for Spear Pillar (the one that has gameplay implications) can be found in the first post's stage list.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I love it !!! Hope that it becomes popular soon ^^

 

[Revven]

I'm pretty sure the turtle is so disjointed that the repeated hits might be able to go AROUND the wizkick hitbox... Could be wrong though.

Time to fix minor typos in changelist...

Ganon's Wizkick hitbox is around his leg, so he's mainly vulnerable anywhere above that. Basically, the parts that are not surrounded by the darkness effect are vulnerable... So, G&W and basically anyone with a long reaching aerial could definitely hit Ganon's big bulky body. It's kinda what makes it a bad approaching move at times.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ganon's Wizkick hitbox is around his leg, so he's mainly vulnerable anywhere above that. Basically, the parts that are not surrounded by the darkness effect are vulnerable... So, G&W and basically anyone with a long reaching aerial could definitely hit Ganon's big bulky body. It's kinda what makes it a bad approaching move at times.

Incorrect. What makes it useless most of the time is that it's horribly slow and totally unsafe on block.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

I know I'm not a highly respected smasher, so, I don't know how much my input counts for, especially seeing that this is my first post, but, I must say, I love Balanced Brawl. It has the updates that Brawl needed to have, but I'd like to make a few suggestions for the next version, which, I am already aware, will not be released for some time.

Firstly: Falco, I am not a Falco main. I am not a Falco secondary, in fact, I hate playing as Falco, but, I feel sorry for all the Falco mains who simply have nothing they can do with their character now that his chain throw has been removed. Please take pity on them and give him something good in the next version...

Secondly: ... actually, all I had was a firstly, keep up the great work.

 

[A2ZOMG]

With the new Wizkick, that turtle is getting shattered, huh?

G&W can still just duck that. Keep in mind. Ganondorf only has two moves that can deal with G&W's D-tilt assuming that G&W is just sitting around D-tilting. His own D-tilt and F-air outrange it, but it requires precise spacing.

The real problem with Ganondorf vs G&W is that Ganondorf literally can't do anything on reaction to punish G&W for randomly running up, Up-smashing, then running away. G&W's D-tilt is also borderline impossible to punish if the G&W uses it to control space.

 

[Marcellus Caesar]

Firstly: Falco, I am not a Falco main. I am not a Falco secondary, in fact, I hate playing as Falco, but, I feel sorry for all the Falco mains who simply have nothing they can do with their character now that his chain throw has been removed. Please take pity on them and give him something good in the next version...

I play Falco as a secondary. Trust me, he's pretty **** good even without chain throwing.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Has anyone else been getting freezing errors when using Youko's texture pack? Particularly concerning Battlefield?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think "frequently unsafe on hit" was the main problem it had in standard Brawl; what's the use of a move that does not reward you (and can even overall punish you) for landing it? I mean, it's a rushing move. Those types of moves in fighters easily get away with being unsafe on block (Balrog from Street Fighter is a notable exception since his rushing moves are safe on block, and this is one of the main reasons he's so frequently a top tier character), and their frame data can be "bad" since they give the user such high mobility (I bet Wizard's Foot shoots Ganon forward at at least double his running speed).

Regardless though, only the initial hit of Wizard's Foot will do enough damage to override the 3% base turtle hitboxes, and it is indeed not a terribly threatening move to Mr. Game & Watch. I find in that matchup the main fear is Ganondorf using Flame Choke to punish the landing lag on an aerial. Flame Choke to down tilt is guaranteed on Mr. Game & Watch, and his tech roll is pretty bad which makes it easier than usual for Ganondorf to get some deadly follow-ups on his tech chases. I don't feel bad about my chances, but it is terrifying due to how deadly Ganondorf is if he manages to get going.

As per Falco, we gave him cool new back throw behavior. It isn't wholly without disadvantages (Falco can't throw people backward off stages anymore), but I think overall it's a better back throw. And, like I said, it's pretty cool.

 

[Thinkaman]

Firstly: Falco, I am not a Falco main. I am not a Falco secondary, in fact, I hate playing as Falco, but, I feel sorry for all the Falco mains who simply have nothing they can do with their character now that his chain throw has been removed. Please take pity on them and give him something good in the next version...

Have you played around with it? You should be able to get DACUS out of d-throw at a wider % range, even if the regrab isn't guaranteed. Also, despite it not being guaranteed, regrabbing opponents IS very possible.

The b-throw change is definitely in Falco's favor overall, since it sets up positions that are more likely to lead to KOs. (Falco's main problem.) It is especially helpful on stages with lots of platforms in the opponent's way... stages where Falco's laser game is less effective.

The idea is the same with Dedede: Both these characters had chaingrabs replaced with something that is not as powerful, but affects ALL characters and is less stage-dependent. This means they will have less uneven matchups both ways.

For example, DDD's new d-throw is vastly better against Olimar than before.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Have you played around with it? You should be able to get DACUS out of d-throw at a wider % range, even if the regrab isn't guaranteed. Also, despite it not being guaranteed, regrabbing opponents IS very possible.

The b-throw change is definitely in Falco's favor overall, since it sets up positions that are more likely to lead to KOs. (Falco's main problem.) It is especially helpful on stages with lots of platforms in the opponent's way... stages where Falco's laser game is less effective.

The idea is the same with Dedede: Both these characters had chaingrabs replaced with something that is not as powerful, but affects ALL characters and is less stage-dependent. This means they will have less uneven matchups both ways.

For example, DDD's new d-throw is vastly better against Olimar than before.

As I said, I'm not a Falco player, I'm a Mr. Game & Watch man myself. I'll let the Falcos I know that they should start toying around with their B-Throw then.

 

[Marcellus Caesar]

Hey AA and Thinkaman, me again.

So I've been playing with Balanced Brawl some more and noticed a few things.

Snake still has the mortar slide. I assume that's either meant to be kept in, or you guys couldn't code it out somehow because of the way the Up+C-stick works like when dashing?

Balanced Brawl doesn't remove the C-stick down aerial fastfall. Brawl+ has coded this, and I find it would be an excellent patch to the current physics. If you're anything like me and use the C-stick in the air, spikes become risky with the C-stick. Is it possible for you to code this in?

0485E27C 40A20008
0485E278 2C000001

That's the code to remove C-stick fastfall.

Brawl+ has an "improved" character selection screen. There's no problem with the individual Pokemon icons since Balanced Brawl doesn't have the "only individual Pokemon" Pokemon Trainer tweak. Any plans to add this to Balanced Brawl for the sake of an interface upgrade? My friend and I have this on our hybrid and it makes selecting our desired character much simpler.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

there is no real reason to take out the mortar slide LOL

one of the aims of bbrawl is to keep the physics in bbrawl, and as little change as necessary.

and i honestly dont see how having the 3 pokemon on the select screen constitutes "better" (this is my opinion though)

i have a recomendation for people who want codes added to bbrawl - add it yourself. i highly doubt anything other then character balance tweaks are ever going to be changed from here on out unless something major happens.

edit: LOL your too slow zac

that brings up a good point about the cstick as well, a big part of pikachu (and other chars as well) survivng vertical hits is that a dair automatically fast falls and really helps with vertical recoveries. i use the cstick for that as well

 

[UTDZac]

I dont like the idea of removing Cstick down from fastfall. That changes how I use some of my attacks especially slow-falling G&W's dair. I can simply hit Cstick Down -> Cstick Down and it will slowfall for me.

Also I dont think the character select screen is necessary for a "Standard release" If you want it part of your brawl then add it yourself, its not hard.

 

[Thinkaman]

Changing controls does have an effect and can mess people up.

Also, you can always be like me and use an attack stick if you really don't want fast fall aerials. It gives you fully controlled neutral aerials as a bonus, along with easy tilts!

Edit: So while waiting on a friend, I played a casual game agaisnt the CPU, and went Falco. I got a d-throw to DACUS on him at well over 100%, a KO. LOL. Yeah, Falco's fine.

 

[Marcellus Caesar]

I dont like the idea of removing Cstick down from fastfall. That changes how I use some of my attacks especially slow-falling G&W's dair. I can simply hit Cstick Down -> Cstick Down and it will slowfall for me.

Guess it's different for every character. It's just kind of worrisome that one character does benefit since G&W freezes in the air and everyone just drops like a rock after tapping it down.

there is no real reason to take out the mortar slide LOL

one of the aims of bbrawl is to keep the physics in bbrawl, and as little change as necessary.

That's true, keep it as little change as necessary. I argue that Snake has ridiculous approach by sliding like that around, though. Every character DOES slide a bit when they do an Up Smash with the C-stick while moving, but the mortar slide puts him at a ridiculous advantage to pretty much any character.

Changing controls does have an effect and can mess people up.

Also, you can always be like me and use an attack stick if you really don't want fast fall aerials. It gives you fully controlled neutral aerials as a bonus, along with easy tilts!

That's true, I guess. It's just that the C-stick is so useful as an air attack tool... like being able to F-air without moving from where you are.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

its pretty slow compared to other DACUS's though :/ it goes farther but is a lot slower. also to remove snakes mortar slide would be to remove all (unless there is a snake specific fix?)

 

[codfish92]

while snakes mortar slide is a good approach, it's not undefeatable. my friends can counter me whenever i use the mortar slide like 40% of the time. it has no need to be changed IMO

 

[cookieM0Nster]

while snakes mortar slide is a good approach, it's not undefeatable. my friends can counter me whenever i use the mortar slide like 40% of the time. it has no need to be changed IMO

Yep. Shield grab says hi.

 

[Linkshot]

DACUS is not a removable glitch, in a metagame sense. Removing it remakes every single matchup in the game, so it will be staying.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Firstly: Falco, I am not a Falco main. I am not a Falco secondary, in fact, I hate playing as Falco, but, I feel sorry for all the Falco mains who simply have nothing they can do with their character now that his chain throw has been removed. Please take pity on them and give him something good in the next version...

I was surprised to hear that they didn't nerf him besides taking out his chaingrab. He's an amazingly good character, even without them. I don't play vBrawl or bBrawl, but when I did, it didn't take me long to realize that Falco really doesn't need the chaingrab.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

DACUS is not a removable glitch, in a metagame sense. Removing it remakes every single matchup in the game, so it will be staying.

It would make characters like Snake have a crappy approach. DACUS is a mechanic of the game that is not in any way harmful to the game.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sheik, as an example, has a DACUS that is overall just as effective as Snake's if not more effective. The main reason it's so commonly known as "mortar slide" like it's Snake specific is that the other characters with really big ones that use them a lot are not exactly near Snake's tier in standard Brawl. I don't believe these slides are really bad for the game; it's not like these usmashes tend to be hard to just beat out (with G&W, I just turtle all DACUSes if I get the chance, and it tends to work pretty well).

The c-stick thing, yeah, it's just a really core physics change. We avoid those whenever possible, and given that it's not a strict positive at all (as a G&W main, I pretty much agree with what UTD zac is saying there), I think it's just for the best if we don't mess with it.

As per a custom character select screen, I'm actually pretty partial to Brawl's screen. It's orderly and simple enough, but it's pretty easy to add your own screen if you'd prefer as such. We have our .txt files freely available for download as a part of our commitment to openness so you can easily add any codes you want and compile your own .gct. I don't think anyone is going to call it non-standard Balanced Brawl over a cosmetic change like a custom character select screen...

 

[SaltyKracka]

It would make characters like Snake have a crappy approach. DACUS is a mechanic of the game that is not in any way harmful to the game.

Snake shouldn't have an approach anyways.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Snake shouldn't have an approach anyways.

Why not? He was nerfed, removing an approach would make him bottom tier. Well maybe not that low but you get what I'm trying to say lol.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Why not? He was nerfed, removing an approach would make him bottom tier. Well maybe not that low but you get what I'm trying to say lol.

Considering he's one of the campiest characters in the game anyways, I'd hardly say that he needs an approach.

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

can someone please help me! why does the game crash after i use some of the characters final smashes?

 

[SaltyKracka]

can someone please help me! why does the game crash after i use some of the characters final smashes?

Because real hackers don't use items.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There are others than Captain Falcon that crash the game? Captain Falcon's crashing the game is a known bug, and we can't do anything about it. Others crashing the game are probably the same way (we really can't do anything about it), but it would be interesting to know which they are.

I can only suggest you play Bbrawl with final smashes off. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you, but fixing this issue is beyond our capabilities. Perhaps some future version of the frame speed mod engine will allow us to avoid this problem.

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

so in order to play balanced brawl you cant use items?

 

[Thinkaman]

can someone please help me! why does the game crash after i use some of the characters final smashes?

I believe the speed change code is fundamentally incompatible with them.

Random: I think auto-canceled Wolf sourspot nair to d-tilt or jab might be a true combo now. Was it before? I don't think so, but I'm not exactly a Wolf main.

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

noo!!! i want zelda final smash!!

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

but before the standard release came out for some reason the version before it worked fine. so i dont know what happend know?

 

[Thinkaman]

noo!!! i want zelda final smash!!

If it makes you feel better, Zelda jab-to-f-tilt-to-u-smash FEELS like a Final Smash...