Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Fox Hater]

You say you can beat G&Ws, so what makes you think he's unbalanced? (Other than safe, spammable moves which can also cause predictability and therefore decrease their success of hitting?)!

The fact that anyone without skill can play him and win. I used G&W to counter his G&W ( and I have never used G&W and I just mimic what he was doing and 2 stocked him lol.

Also u talk about predictability yes but since all his mover are super safe and have a great priority, no matter what u do to counter them he will still hit you or destroy ur shield.

For ex, he was spaming bair like a noob/scrub so I had my charged shot full. When he jumped to spam another bair I jumped and released the shot and his bair eat the full charged B. I fall with some lag( recovery frames) and he foward smash me. Im samus 80% dead with DI. the G&W had 130% . Now tell me he isnt overpowered. Im not saying hes unbeatable but he is easy mode. why try harder with others chars if with G&W it's so easy. And for trying to trick him u dont get any rewards you still get punish because of his crazy priority.

I think G&W smashes should have more start up frames and more recovery frames

 

[Liquid Gen]

Ease of use =/= Ban material.

 

[Eyada]

If you really think G&W is so overpowered, you should pick him up and use him as your main for awhile.

I used to absolutely loathe Olimar (who, by the way, is easily 10x more gay than G&W), but then I seriously studied the character and tried to use him myself. It didn't take me long to recognize Olimar's weak points. Even though I eventually dropped Olimar because I didn't enjoy playing him, I no longer rage every time I play an Olimar because I know his weaknesses and I find ways to exploit them with my characters.

Also, in your description you said you were playing as Samus v. G&W. That match-up is very misleading. vBrawl Samus makes any opposing character seem broken because she is so terrible; in reality, however, G&W isn't too good, Samus is just too bad.

Fortunately, she is fixed in BBrawl.

 

[DarkISDA]

Got some questions that came to mind while looking at that wall of changes:

What does the numbers actually mean? I mean for exemple:

Taken from Rob:
Forward tilt knockback (100/30) -> (25/55), angle (-) -> (18)
Up throw knockback (72/70) -> (80/70), angle (80) -> (85)
Down throw knockback (20/110) -> (20/80)

I know for like (72/70) -> (80/70) means it got buffed, but why is there two numbers?
What does each number represents? And the angle number, what is that about?

 

[Sucumbio]

Also u talk about predictability yes but since all his mover are super safe and have a great priority, no matter what u do to counter them he will still hit you or destroy ur shield.

this is myth, his up smash is "safe" but not all his moves are safe, he's by no means invincible or even overpowered, he is however really annoying against certain characters and hard to KO at high percents

 

[Linkshot]

100/30 = 100 growth, 30 Base. Base is how far they go regardless of percentage. Growth is how much further they go as they gain damage.

Angle is what direction you hit them (in degrees; 0 is straight ahead, 90 is straight up.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Linkshot beat me to it.

 

[NO-IDea]

complaining about G&W

Clearly if you can play his main better than he can to such a degree that you can 2-stock him, he's not very good in general. And on another note... why charge shot in that situation when z-air->charge shot works better? Z-air outprioritizes all of G&W's moves. Not to mention that although G&W's b-air eats shields, Marth can OoS up+b G&W, and Samus can SDI into u-air->up+b on G&W. DK rivals G&W in range and priority. I don't understand how this match-up can be as difficult as you say when your mains/characters have good options against G&W.

Honestly, you're not making a good enough excuse.

Samus is just too bad.

Fortunately, she is fixed in BBrawl.

Disagree with the former (but i'm a bit bias. She's not too bad, she's... relatively... okay.)

Therefore, I don't deem the term fix to be correct. Maybe improved. ^^

 

[A2ZOMG]

When will Balanced Brawl be available without Homebrew-Channel in the PAL-Version, too?
I know some people, who would play BB, but only that way.

And... Please fix Ganon's Warlock Punch? ^^ It's necessary to give each char a set of useable moves. Balanced Brawl fix very much, but not this punch.

Warlock Punch has a use. Use it if you ever manage to break a shield. Which could somehow happen if your opponent shields U-tilt...I guess.

Oh and also, it can be an epic edgeguard tool from ledgejump, and you can try to mindgame it in by using the Ganon SUPER Jump and doing a reverse Warlock Punch from way up so you can space it as you come down.

Ganondorf's moves otherwise are all useable...just none of them are safe against defensive play and intelligent use of pokes.

 

[Fox Hater]

Clearly if you can play his main better than he can to such a degree that you can 2-stock him, he's not very good in general. And on another note... why charge shot in that situation when z-air->charge shot works better? Z-air outprioritizes all of G&W's moves. Not to mention that although G&W's b-air eats shields, Marth can OoS up+b G&W, and Samus can SDI into u-air->up+b on G&W. DK rivals G&W in range and priority. I don't understand how this match-up can be as difficult as you say when your mains/characters have good options against G&W.

Honestly, you're not making a good enough excuse.



Disagree with the former (but i'm a bit bias. She's not too bad, she's... relatively... okay.)

Therefore, I don't deem the term fix to be correct. Maybe improved. ^^

I beat him with both marth and DK. I think I said that. And have managed to beat G&W. My statement is that how a noob can play a good G&W just because of his high priority and super safe moves. u cant presure him etc.

also Zair is good, but if he is close enough for u cant throw zair safe so I just use charged B( in that situation. ( and I was at the corner of the stage)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Noob level play doesn't matter at all.

And seriously...you don't understand. There is a DRASTIC difference between good G&Ws and bad ones. This goes for basically every character. And actually, this is a LOT more apparent for G&W in particular. Watch matches of UTD Zac, and then watch matches of a random G&W you have never heard of playing against someone who is somewhat well known and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Mit]

100/30 = 100 growth, 30 Base. Base is how far they go regardless of percentage. Growth is how much further they go as they gain damage.

Angle is what direction you hit them (in degrees; 0 is straight ahead, 90 is straight up.)

I've always wondered how exactly you read the "growth" numbers. I understand what it is, but how does it relate to that number?

I'm assuming '0' growth would mean the move has the exact same knockback at all percents (like say, Falcon's first-hit-nair), but what do the highest growth numbers mean? Is 50 a high growth number and 100 is exceptionally high? Can it go up to like 200? What's an average growth amount to be expected of most moves? What's an example of a move with really high growth?

Stuff like that

 

[A2ZOMG]

To give you an idea of how non-0 growthrate moves work, Base is arbitrarily multiplied by some value like 30. Growth is directly multiplied by ending damage% divided by opponent's weight. Add the two together, you get a value that is supposed to represent how far you get sent back.

Small changes in growth rate make a pretty significant difference to knockback considering how growth rate gets directly multiplied by the damage the opponent has after taking a hit. However, even some high growth rate moves like Link's F-tilt were fairly weak KO moves in vBrawl because of the really low base. Snake's U-tilt had a similar growth rate to Link's F-tilt, but was obviously a much better KO move due to the higher base.

I could probably try to search for the links to the posts that explain it, but I'm too lazy.

If it helps, I know the KO%s of some moves in this game. Mario's U-smash for example KOs DDD at 128% on FD, and KOs Marth at 105%. That's an example of a pretty solid KO move, KOing the heaviest characters before 130%.

Snake's U-tilt in this game KO's Mario at I believe 125ish% or so. It's pretty funny, Snake's U-tilt and Mario's U-smash basically exchanged KO power in BBrawl. I can actually adapt to Snake's KO percents pretty well since I just pretend I'm hitting people with vBrawl Mario's U-smash lol.

If I recall, the highest growth rate in the game belongs to Luigi's Up-tilted F-smash, being the strongest move in homerun contest at high percents.

 

[00000]

Ganondorf's moves otherwise are all useable...just none of them are safe against defensive play and intelligent use of pokes.

Irony - since none of ganon's moves have a use, all of them do.

 

[Linkshot]

What value is Luigi's growth, btw? I'd love to have a "gauge" for my PSA characters.

 

[Da Man]

Any word about the PAL version of this working yet? No way i'm going through all 89 pages just to find out -_-

EDIT: Just tried the PAL codes, i'm getting those codes of death when using Gecko -_-. I got the gameconfig text file and RSBP01.gct in the right places so what am i doing wrong?

 

[Fox Hater]

Noob level play doesn't matter at all.

And seriously...you don't understand. There is a DRASTIC difference between good G&Ws and bad ones. This goes for basically every character. And actually, this is a LOT more apparent for G&W in particular. Watch matches of UTD Zac, and then watch matches of a random G&W you have never heard of playing against someone who is somewhat well known and you'll see what I mean.

I have watched matches of good G&W for example XyZ vs ZERO( best peach of PR and US in brawl nuff said) and here is the link. Maybe i have to admit that vbrawl samus was weak and didnt have a lot of optios but still it doesnt change that G&W has ******* priority and his smashes are super strong and safe. If the tops were really nerfed like u say in bbrawl G&W would climb up to be one of the top tier chars

Heres XyZ vs Zero http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fJjPdPJZ4U

 

[Mit]

Why did you post a video of a good G&W losing to a pretty low tier character (even if it was one of the best Peaches out there)? If anything it kind of invalidates your point, and proves that his smashes are not unbalanced in high-level play. Especially since Peach has received nothing but buffs, as have most all low tier characters.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Foxhater dont post vids THAT old of zero lol. Ur going to make him look bad .

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have watched matches of good G&W for example XyZ vs ZERO( best peach of PR and US in brawl nuff said) and here is the link. Maybe i have to admit that vbrawl samus was weak and didnt have a lot of optios but still it doesnt change that G&W has ******* priority and his smashes are super strong and safe. If the tops were really nerfed like u say in bbrawl G&W would climb up to be one of the top tier chars

True enough. He's probably one of the best characters in BBrawl.

He's infinitely more manageable than MK and Snake in high level play (except by a few specific characters)

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Fox Hater is the only one who seems to not be getting it. G&W is BALANCED. Why fix what isn't broken?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Fox Hater is the only one who seems to not be getting it. G&W is BALANCED. Why fix what isn't broken?

For that matter, why fix what is broken? (coughMKSnakecoughcough)

 

[Thinkaman]

G&W is also pathetically light. Sure, he's got the bucket, but that only helps over long horizontal distances; near the edge or vertically (on most stages) it helps almost none.

It's like Snake. It takes 9 frames for Snake to even jump off the ground. If Snake wasn't a great character to begin with, people would be outraged and riot in the streets at this terrible flaw that no other character has. Most people would probably say that Snake is impossible to make good without "fixing" his jump.

Sound like anything? Yoshi's shield? Peach's airdodge? Jigglypuff's weight? Link's recovery? Ganondorf's entire moveset?

Again, this isn't a Robin-hood style witchhunt to destroy all the good moves and "fix" all the bad ones. All we care about are matchups. Rock Smash is an amazing move, but unless PT has too many good matchups thanks to Charizard, there's no need to nerf it. Meta Knight jab is a pretty bad move, but unless Meta Knight is losing too much, there's no reason to buff it.

Matchup data is king.

 

[Fox Hater]

u know after several post i have realized that although he is strong he is not strong enough to be broken. The point of my first post is why wasnt he balanced a little bit more cause is smashes are too strong and safe but its ok he is not broken just very easy to use. I can pick marth or DK to beat him. I have played bbrawl now and low tiers have more chance Samus for example and I find myself doing better against G&W. Anyway cant w8 to see the results of a bbrawl tournament and to see the support of SBR on this.

 

[NO-IDea]

Yay... he conforms! Lol

Not saying that people should conform, but at least he has a better understanding.

Now if only we could get others to listen >.>

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Conforming is fun

 

[JOE!]

so, why dont we compile a list of chars we think are:

fine as is

and need some more work?

 

[Thinkaman]

I think raw matchup discussion is more valuable, because overall character verdicts leave out too much information.

Let's say me and you think... (just gonna say a random guy) Pikachu is "underpowered". Now, we might both say that... but let's say I am thinking Pikachu is countered too hard by people with more priority, and you are thinking Pikachu is struggling against floaties.

Skipping ahead to deciding "Pikachu needs improvement" without discussing or understanding why is a dangerous path, especially considering that everything done so far has targeted matchups.

Also, human bias plays a role. We might imagine a character as "too good" or "needs improvement" when in reality they have a roughly even matchup spread. I think this actually applies to what people often think of BBrawl Snake.

 

[Fox Hater]

i think changes shouldn't be made just like that. In fact there should not be anymore changes at all. take for a fact SF series u see a change in the game every 2 to 3 years. From SF2 to SF2 turbo and SF3 to SF3 third strike. if you'll start making changes anytime someones says that a character must be buffed or nerfed the game will never have enough time to evolved the meta game and will never be taken seriously by the community much less by SBR

 

[ぱみゅ]

i think changes shouldn't be made just like that. In fact there should not be anymore changes at all. take for a fact SF series u see a change in the game every 2 to 3 years. From SF2 to SF2 turbo and SF3 to SF3 third strike. if you'll start making changes anytime someones says that a character must be buffed or nerfed the game will never have enough time to evolved the meta game and will never be taken seriously by the community much less by SBR

In order to keep/improve balance on this project, they'll let metagame evolve a couple of months, in that time machups will be dicussed so roughly to change only what's absolutely needed on that new update.
That's what I've understood through all this time.... I'm right?

 

[JOE!]

thinka speaks the truth, but there could still be some voted upon early thoughts. Such as how Ganon still amy need a little something seeing as he relies to heavily on punishing...

 

[Linkshot]

Sonic needs more, in my opinion. Much more. Like...faster pumme and/or more damage on Spin Dash.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When I said Ganondorf was terrible, the implication was in fact that he doesn't really have any matchups in his favor.

In vBrawl, as debatable as it is, I'm pretty certain that vs CF was in Ganon's favor for the simple fact that he was just VASTLY more powerful at comboing and KOing as a whole, and better at gimping too.

I'm pretty doubtful that Ganondorf beats CF in BBrawl considering how much more powerful CF became in the transition. Ganondorf has a few matchups that are more even-ish than they were before, but matchups in his favor? I'm not seeing anything. And then he still has matchups that are downright terrible, some of which possibly got even worse (Samus, for one).

And yeeeeeaaah, Sonic definitely needs more. Which matchups does the Spring gimp even help in? Like Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Link?

 

[Linkshot]

Spring Gimp ***** tethers.

Also, Ganondorf doesn't counter characters. He counters players.

 

[Eyada]

Speaking of Sonic, there's something I've been meaning to ask:

Is there any possibility that one (both is even better!) of the BBrawl designers could share a little design insight on the changes made to Sonic? A break-down, basically, of the overall design process for Sonic. An explanation for each individual change would be greatly appreciated; especially insight on what match-ups each change is targeted towards and the general process you went through to arrive at each one.

Basically:
-Overall design parameters and goals
-Analysis of individual changes
-Any cool/interesting designer notes or stories from the development

If you'd rather not, don't worry about it. It's no big deal, I was mostly just curious.

 

[Rykoshet]

Also, Ganondorf doesn't counter characters. He counters players.

I almost choked laughing. That's the same concept behind ike's matchups in vbrawl. The second your opponent stops doing dumb things the fact that he's terrible shines through. You dont even need to be a super smart player, you just need to know what situations leave you relatively safe and stay there.

 

[The Milk Monster]

i think changes shouldn't be made just like that. In fact there should not be anymore changes at all. take for a fact SF series u see a change in the game every 2 to 3 years. From SF2 to SF2 turbo and SF3 to SF3 third strike. if you'll start making changes anytime someones says that a character must be buffed or nerfed the game will never have enough time to evolved the meta game and will never be taken seriously by the community much less by SBR

I can tell your intentions are good, but no more changes is an incredibly silly statement. In the OP, they say they are making this version stick for 6 months before even considering any changes, and thats after the metagame evolves, and we start figuring out match ups. Some things intended to work in some match ups might not work that great, so they have to make a change to help that match up.

I think, whatever Think and AA decide to do with this project, will have a huge following of the community, including members of the SBR. Because this is something the community needed.

 

[Fox Hater]

I can tell your intentions are good, but no more changes is an incredibly silly statement. In the OP, they say they are making this version stick for 6 months before even considering any changes, and thats after the metagame evolves, and we start figuring out match ups. Some things intended to work in some match ups might not work that great, so they have to make a change to help that match up.

I think, whatever Think and AA decide to do with this project, will have a huge following of the community, including members of the SBR. Because this is something the community needed.

I understand what u say but i think 6 month is not much, maybe a year. Because then people will rely on buffs and not skill, take for instance Turbo, Melee. I dont think that in 6 months we'll see a breakthrough of the metagame if people are going to be like"well in 6 months my character will get either buffed of nerfed more so why bother" But who knows maybe im wrong. What u people need to do is to try to do tournaments and if possible one on a bigger scale to see new results. now will 6 months be enough?

 

[BentoBox]

Buffing CF's moves doesn't change the fact that he lacks priority and range; that applies to pretty much all the low tiers who failed because they had trouble getting in. If you're not going to mod at least a few hitboxes, some characters are just doomed to stay low tier.

That being said, I love sheik <3.

 

[Fox Hater]

yeah like samus