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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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Fenrir VII

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The ban for PS2 arises just from the fact that players don't like it... I don't believe that it isn't a fair stage, or should not be allowed in tournament, even now...

I agree that it changes the game a bit, but it's still an interesting stage to have on...

This is similar to Lylat, which is listed as a possible CP just because of the tilting, and Melee's BF edges... this is not CP worthy... it's just a CP because players don't like it... even though Yoshi's affects the game just as much, if not more, than Lylat does.

To me, Japes is pretty ban worthy, actually, because it seriously detracts from some characters recoveries... and it gives huge advantages to characters like Falco... I don't really think it SHOULD be banned, but I certainly think it's less fair than PS2
 

SaltyKracka

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The ban for PS2 arises just from the fact that players don't like it... I don't believe that it isn't a fair stage, or should not be allowed in tournament, even now...

I agree that it changes the game a bit, but it's still an interesting stage to have on...

This is similar to Lylat, which is listed as a possible CP just because of the tilting, and Melee's BF edges... this is not CP worthy... it's just a CP because players don't like it... even though Yoshi's affects the game just as much, if not more, than Lylat does.

To me, Japes is pretty ban worthy, actually, because it seriously detracts from some characters recoveries... and it gives huge advantages to characters like Falco... I don't really think it SHOULD be banned, but I certainly think it's less fair than PS2
I have much the same opinion. Japes needs to be grouped with other stages that do this, such as Norfair, vCorneria, and Pirate Ship. Either ban all of them, or ban none of them.
 

blakinola

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Really, the air business of PS2 is the only think that makes it bad.

And the ice. Unfair advantage for the Ice Climbers. (if that property still functions over from melee lol)
 

Fenrir VII

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I don't find the air stage that bad...

People kinda went crazy about how it amplifies vertical kills, but it doesn't seem to really increase knockback... and actually GW uairing off the top is only applicable against incredibly stupid players...

The electric stage is meh... It really screws with people, so I understand that complaint...



None of the transforms are particularly enjoyable, but at the same time, none of them are particularly broken or game-changing, either...
 

T-major

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I like PS2, but the electric form needs to have the conveyor belts slowed down or something.

I have a question, though. is it possible to reverse the patching? if, for whatever crazy reason, someone prefers original Brawl, could they switch back?
 

Fenrir VII

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I like PS2, but the electric form needs to have the conveyor belts slowed down or something.

I have a question, though. is it possible to reverse the patching? if, for whatever crazy reason, someone prefers original Brawl, could they switch back?
lol just don't keep the SD card in... and BOOM regular Brawl.
 

Lokee

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I like PS2, but the electric form needs to have the conveyor belts slowed down or something.

I have a question, though. is it possible to reverse the patching? if, for whatever crazy reason, someone prefers original Brawl, could they switch back?

BBrawl doesnt really patch the game but kinda just uses the original to boot itself up.
Basically if your using the non HBrew method just delete the .BIN file on you SD.

As for the HBrew method just dont use Geckko.
 

Thinkaman

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Some BBrawl matchup info with DK. There is no particular order.

Vs MK:
This matchup is 60-40 in mk's favor in Vbrawl. I would go so far as to say it's 50-50, or at the worst, 55-45 mk. Now that the gayness of the tornado has been neutralized, DK can punish mk more because of the fact that he'll have to do...other moves. Make no mistake, MK still is faster than anything DK could hope to muster, but MK will have to rely on gimps/dair gimps to take out DK. DK lives even longer and kills MK at the same percentages (around 80 with Africa Punch) and DK lives to at least 150.

Vs Dedede:
D3 can still grab DK out of everything, but because of the loss of the infinite and across-the-stage CG, this match is probably 55-45 D3. That techchase towards the end of the stage, into a dthrow spike spells terribad for DK. DK will still have to work to not get grabbed, and the same priority of moves follows: SA punch, down B, well-spaced bairs.

Vs Flaco:
The CG is gone, but the really good jab and lasers are still deadly. At high percents, a bthrow can set up into a nasty bair if it's fresh. DK's approach is otherwise the same. It's still in falco's advantage with the loss of the CG so no free damage, but the tricks and traps of getting footstooled/spiked remain. 55-45 Falco, or 50-50.

Vs Marth: Exact same match up. No playstyle changes.

Vs Snake: I would actually give the matchup adv to DK, 55-45 because of the tilt nerfs. I've never ever ever had to worry about mines. DK is harder to kill as a result--the improvement on DK's Down-B adds +1 damage, but otherwise, the matchup is the same. Snake's grab and camping and nade approach still works and racks up heavy damage. But if Snake gets off stage, it's trouble. I don't think we need to go into anymore--both sides know how this matchup works.

Vs Sonic: The spring owns, but sonic's approaches are still easily shieldgrabbed/dtilted. Dk's bair outranges everything sonic has and DK lives forever. I have been gimped at 10 percent at the start of a match I played. If you get hit with the spring, it's over for DK. But it's easily cancelled-out with a well timed aerial or the sides of the upB.

Love Mario Circuit and mushroomy kingdom. Keeps you on your toes, and it's unsafe to camp there. Win.

I hope this provides some insight, AA and Thinkaman. Will post more later.
Thank you so much for this analysis. If as a community we can come up with a few dozen posts like this, balancing this further to perfection will be a cakewalk.
 

Linkshot

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Try it out for yourself.

I'll try to give some ZSS feedback...I'm a little scared for Lucario. He had relative even matchups across the board, and the low tiers got buffed...
 

Thinkaman

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is this really more balanced>?
That's your call ain't it? Give it a spin and see.

At this point it's basically unanimous that balance is improved noticeably, it's jsut a question of how much? You can never reach perfection, but how close can we get?

Try it out for yourself.

I'll try to give some ZSS feedback...I'm a little scared for Lucario. He had relative even matchups across the board, and the low tiers got buffed...
Yes. Lucario wasn't really buffed until about halfway through development, when we woke up one day to find that Lucario was lost in a strange new world with more deadly low tiers... Though he was still a well-designed, formidable character. The broad but small buff to his ground game seems to be a small but just compensation for him so far. With his even matchup though, Lucario could potentially fall through the cracks... He might barely have more advantageous or disadvantageous matchups that anyone else, and no one would notice until all the matchup data was collected and looked at.

Just one more reason to keep collecting matchup feedback!
 

NO-IDea

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Haha, the Lucario v Samus MU.

My best friend mains Lucario and when we first tried this, he was psyched over the small buffs, especially f-tilt and force palm.

And then, he got hit by my f-smash. And cried, "Holy f**k, gtf outta here!" And with much effort, attempted to space himself away from z-air and f-smash. The set ended up going 3-5 him.

This was when I was first working out the kinks of how her new throws and f-tilt worked. Now, I think I'd win the set 3-5 (can't find out though, different colleges.) Moral of the story? Lucario is pretty solid, even if the low tiers have been buffed. It would be confusing to place him into a tier list, so it would be best instead to analyze his individual MUs and watch for differences.

Differences in the Lucario v Samus MU? F-tilt is a great close range option for both parties. Charge Shot still cancels out with Aura Sphere, and Samus's missiles don't affect this match-up much. But, if Samus shield dashes and perfectly shields Lucario's f-smash, it can sometimes result in a stock 60% and up simply because of gimping.

I'd put it at 55-45 Lucario's favor.
 

A2ZOMG

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is this really more balanced>?
Short answer: yes.

Long answer: The total tier gap I find is comparable from Marth's placement to Ike's placement on the vBrawl tier list. Some characters are just frankly leagues ahead of others despite, and partly as a consequence of various changes.

The game puts even more emphasis on safe and reliable KO moves, since the total KO power of characters is much higher.
 

Mr. Escalator

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AmazingAmpharos briefly mentioned that both he and Thinkaman couldn't get behind Big Blue as a decent counterpick yet, so I wanted to throw in my input from playing several matches on it.

I think Big Blue is a much better stage in BBrawl than it was in vBrawl; I believed that Big Blue was pretty "fair" in vBrawl, though not something I would have in a tournament I would host, but "fair" enough on paper. However, the speed change is pretty dramatic in making me change my opinion on the matter. If I held a Balanced Brawl tournament, I would most likely have this on.

The speed of the tracks is so much more survivable when you end up falling on your back that I'm fairly sure that the only way you can die from this is if it occurs on the far left. Most getup rolls to the right and simply standing up actually work opposed to most times in vBrawl you would die because of your helplessness. The slow effect is also pretty nifty for keeping the Falcon Flyer there longer for characters who don't enjoy car fighting too much (though, characters who do prefer the cars may simply go to the cars straight away, but this can come into effect later in the match if the character who prefers the falcon flyer has a lead on it). It also makes it so that the track disappearing suddenly isn't quite as sudden.

Regardless, it's obviously a terrible stage for some characters. For example, Ganon; it, at least I assume it does, kills his sideB game and forces him into a lot of air play. The stage does help versus people like Falco for him, as projectiles from Falco are really awkward to try and use as the stage contorts and as well as giving Ganon a quick approach to the bird assuming he is on the right cars (he can ride the track and quickly drop an Uair/upB from below or jump out early to fake Falco into reacting from the perceived below car threat), but it also is an awful stage to try and fight G&W.

I think this is more an issue of G&W just wrecking Ganon in general though. G&W vs Ganon on RC is so skewed in G&W's favor that I don't think this matchup in particular is enough to say it's an unwinnable counterpick. If anything, I would say Big Blue is better for Ganon than RC is versus G&W. The shape of the track can be pretty negative for Turtle spam, which forces G&W into a different course of action.

So I think the most skewed matchup on this stage, G&W v Ganon, is winnable, even more so than on a common counterpick stage, RC.


I've played dozens of matches against numerous characters on Big Blue. I feel it's a great counterpick to allow, provided there is more than one stage ban allowed. I've had decently close enough matches with a Falco here (decently as in a one stock no percent win for me, but it was the Falco's first time in a 1 on 1 against me on that stage), so I would go out on a limb and say it's not as broken a counterpick as lol Pirate Ship, and would most likely be more comparable to the new Onett, Rainbow Cruise, and Green Greens. It may not be personally liked, but it's really fair from all I have played on it.
 

PKNintendo

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Hey A2, you SURE Mario's top tier?

She he got buffed, and several of his weakness removed but top tier is a tall order.
I'd say upper mid.

He was low tier back in the day...
 

T-major

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lol just don't keep the SD card in... and BOOM regular Brawl.
well that sounds easy enou... wait a sec


4. Remove the SD card and enjoy Balanced Brawl! Failure to remove the SD card may result in crashing on the stage select screen.

... hmmmmm

anyways. I'm trying this beast out now. I'm not entirely sure how I would provide any feedback, since I don't play competitively. I assume thats the type of community you want it from... any advice on how I could possibly go about that would be great. I really want to help out with this.
 

Stealth Raptor

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what fenrir means is that before you turn on brawl, remove the sd card. then it will play brawl, as bbrawl is not in any way stored on the wii, but directly loaded from the SD card. i dont know the specifics, but after you activate the stack smash hack, you have to remove the sd card or it freezes up
 

Mr. Escalator

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Actually, I want to note about my last post that Ics v G&W are probably pretty skewed as well, but the same occurs on Rainbow Cruise. That's all heh.

Also, I'm doubtful Mario is top. He definitely is much better, and likely upper mid-high, but we will have to see how his matchups pan out. A2ZOMG, you should break down his matchups in BBrawl. Preferably aim for the extremes; his worsts, his best, and his most improved.
 

BSP

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when getting the files, is the SD card supposed to be in a computer or the wii itself?

And everythime i go to the download link, it says no files found...is something wrong?
 

SaltyKracka

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You're supposed to load the files onto the SD Card via your computer, delete all of the custom stages on the Wii, exit the Stage Builder, put the SD card in, and then go into the stage builder. Everything else should happen automatically.
 

BSP

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You're supposed to load the files onto the SD Card via your computer, delete all of the custom stages on the Wii, exit the Stage Builder, put the SD card in, and then go into the stage builder. Everything else should happen automatically.
do you know where the card goes? lol im clueless.
 

Stealth Raptor

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um on my dell laptop it was on the right side, below the cd rom drive near the center. it may have what looks like an sd card in it but its a cover, just push it in and it will come out. and on my comp, even though the sd card didnt push all the way into my comp, it still clicked and could be read by my comp when i inserted it. other then that i cant help you, i dont know comps very well lol
 

BSP

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Ill try that then i guess

NOW im an apprentice, yay

Never mind, i used the printer to help the comp. find the SD card. BUT, now i have another problem, when i click on 'download link' it says no files to display...Balenced brawl hates me already :p
 

ぱみゅ

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Mediafire should just be down. Just wait a little.

btw, the gameconfig.txt in download is stll need something to have BBrawl working?? I just noticed that a couple days ago when someone shared his whole files, and I find out that... (and that would explain as well why I just couldn't made it work!)
 

ぱみゅ

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I know, I asked if the one on the dowload still needs something else (written) on it to work.
 

A2ZOMG

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Actually, I want to note about my last post that Ics v G&W are probably pretty skewed as well, but the same occurs on Rainbow Cruise. That's all heh.

Also, I'm doubtful Mario is top. He definitely is much better, and likely upper mid-high, but we will have to see how his matchups pan out. A2ZOMG, you should break down his matchups in BBrawl. Preferably aim for the extremes; his worsts, his best, and his most improved.
The only matchups that Mario clearly loses are vs G&W and Marth in BBrawl.

vs G&W and Marth, those were basically the two matchups where it's difficult for Mario to either camp or be aggressive. These two characters also are very good at edgeguarding, and while the lack of RCO lag DOES help, their superior zoning game is still a major issue. Most of Mario's other matchups he lost not because he had trouble doing anything, but because he was much weaker than his opponent and it took longer for him to score the KO.

Mario was mid tier material in vBrawl, and underrated. Mario should have been just under Wolf in vBrawl. The matchups he had in that tier were for the most part very even in high level play, only slightly disadvantaged sometimes due to Mario having a little less reward on some key moves. By the way, Sonic doesn't belong in that tier, and Sheik was way ahead of that tier in vBrawl.

As for characters that are above that tier, Mario also did really well against Donkey Kong, Toon Link, Pit, Pikachu, Falco, and Diddy Kong in high level play in that those were absolutely winnable matchups that were close in high level play (if I recall, TC1, one of the best Mario mains on the WC, never loses in the Diddy Kong matchup). Mario even stands a chance against the Ice Climbers, as he actually DOES have the tools to separate and destroy them.

As for the Ice Climbers, let me explain something that should give you an idea how many options Mario has. What Mario could do in this matchup was D-air, and never get shieldgrabbed as long as he never messed up his spacing on that move. His fireballs COULD outcamp them. Cape ***** Blizzard and can sometimes beat Squall Hammer. The point I'm trying to make is that Mario always had a great movepool that could do good things under a smart player. Mario's main problem was he was a much weaker character than most.

Vs Metaknight, despite getting gimped a lot, can be manageable for the simple fact that Mario has great tools to handle various things MK can do. Up-B can beat the Tornado. F-smash can outrange MK. Fireballs don't clank against MK, so are spammable.

Vs Snake, the matchup becomes manageable when you set up gimps with F-air. Fireballs are still useful against Snake's lack of ways to stop them. Juggling combos are good against him as ever. In vBrawl, he just KOed Mario 70% earlier and did the damage of 2 B-airs with 1 F-tilt.

Most Mario mains say Mario beats ROB. I think it's an even matchup. Either way, Mario does extremely well against him. Mario has the tools to pressure and combo and camp ROB effectively.

King DDD was actually somewhat winnable with the infinite. It could be mashed out of, and fundamentally, Mario could be campier in that matchup. Mario's Cape and FLUDD also happen to be very good at edgeguarding DDD, and Mario's D-air again doesn't get punished out of shield when used correctly. Again though, the problem is DDD living about 90% longer.

As for Mario's favorable matchups, Mario pretty much dominates low tiers, having advantageous matchups against even guys like Ike and Bowser. My opinion was that Mario was too good for low tiers from actually attending a low tier tournament.

Fundamentally the reason why I see Mario as top tier in BBrawl is because he has all the tools for doing stuff you need to do. He can shield pressure safely. He can rack up damage pretty fast. He can camp. He can long range poke (with F-smash). He has SAFE KO moves. He also has a very formidable out of shield game.

He's not an overcentralizing character by any means (similar to the way Marth isn't overcentralizing). He's just easily one of the most solid forces in the game when played correctly in terms of pressure, damage racking, and KO options.

At any rate, Jab canceling with Mario is seriously amazing. His Jab cancel game is on par with, if not better than Luigi's, as you have two reasonably reliable KO options from it. Jab cancel D-smash and B-throw pretty much can guarantee death to anyone as long as Mario picks right, or has enough of a frame advantage from landing Jab (actually, Mario I believe gets a big enough frame advantage window against the entire case by landing both Jab1 and 2 that is large enough to land D-smash). In fact, I just realized that Mario probably can Jab cancel D-smash Marth and G&W before they can block. Considering the increased power of D-smash, that should be pretty scary.
 

FSLink

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Noticed the download link seems to be down, hope this gets fixed soon or someone posts a mirror. :p I'm a B+ person, and the only reason I haven't played is because it's annoying switching back and forth between them. Luckily, the Mod Launcher is out so I can easily load a different one without having to switch codesets all the time.
So yeah, hoping it gets fixed so I can see how balanced and fun this is. :D
 
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