Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[UmbraLion]

I just want to ask... what is this supposed to accomplish in major standards? Is this like a tournament thing?

 

[Corrupted Mind]

How do you expect the ice climbers to be viable without the chain grab?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

They can still chaingrab, just not perform the infinite.

 

[bbbbc]

can u use bbrawl if u have 4.1

 

[NO-IDea]

Hey, I've been playing BBrawl for a couple of days and am loving some of the changes to Samus such as:

1) Increased knockback of super missiles, dash attack, f/bthrows and d-smash/d-tilt
2) Increased damage on bombs and charge shot
3) New knockback on her d-throw and new pummel hitbox

However, I do have some issues (and hopefully the input will be considered.)

For starters, I think the homing missile damage should have been kept to 5%. It's very spammable and useful as a pressuring tool, but the fact that it does more damage than most other projectiles in the game now is a bit unfair. (And I'm a Samus main, so no bias included. Getting hit twice by homing missiles resulting in 15-16% is ridiculous.)

Another thing I'm not quite fond of is the new knockback on her u-throw. I feel that the old knockback ratios were fine as it gave her time to charge her shot when opponents were at high percentages. Now I feel as if the purpose is now solely as an alternative to her d-throw, which I don't feel is necessary. I'm not sure if you can return the old u-throw knockback while keeping her d-throw the way it is, but if you can, it's something to consider in the next version.

Finally, the knockback angles on her f-tilts and f-smashes are finally what they should be! ^^

But the knockback of her tilted down f-smash is absurdly high for a character who can quickly rack up damage long range, and the knockback of her f-tilts should have stayed the same instead of nerfed. If you can explain the new purpose of nerfing her f-tilt to me, that would be great. I still stand by the fact that her tilted down f-smash is too strong though.

I believe Samus is very competitive now. And thank you for that! But in general, I feel that everything just hits harder now when it shouldn't (and not just Samus, but I only have experience with Samus to give any valuable input), and that you should have to fight for the damage and the kill, not just the damage and have the kill on a silver platter because of having a solid, consistent kill move(s.)

 

[codfish92]

can u use bbrawl if u have 4.1

you can use BB with any version now with the "no hack needed" loader.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hey, I've been playing BBrawl for a couple of days and am loving some of the changes to Samus such as:

1) Increased knockback of super missiles, dash attack, f/bthrows and d-smash/d-tilt
2) Increased damage on bombs and charge shot
3) New knockback on her d-throw and new pummel hitbox

However, I do have some issues (and hopefully the input will be considered.)

For starters, I think the homing missile damage should have been kept to 5%. It's very spammable and useful as a pressuring tool, but the fact that it does more damage than most other projectiles in the game now is a bit unfair. (And I'm a Samus main, so no bias included. Getting hit twice by homing missiles resulting in 15-16% is ridiculous.)

Another thing I'm not quite fond of is the new knockback on her u-throw. I feel that the old knockback ratios were fine as it gave her time to charge her shot when opponents were at high percentages. Now I feel as if the purpose is now solely as an alternative to her d-throw, which I don't feel is necessary. I'm not sure if you can return the old u-throw knockback while keeping her d-throw the way it is, but if you can, it's something to consider in the next version.

Finally, the knockback angles on her f-tilts and f-smashes are finally what they should be! ^^

But the knockback of her tilted down f-smash is absurdly high for a character who can quickly rack up damage long range, and the knockback of her f-tilts should have stayed the same instead of nerfed. If you can explain the new purpose of nerfing her f-tilt to me, that would be great. I still stand by the fact that her tilted down f-smash is too strong though.

I believe Samus is very competitive now. And thank you for that! But in general, I feel that everything just hits harder now when it shouldn't (and not just Samus, but I only have experience with Samus to give any valuable input), and that you should have to fight for the damage and the kill, not just the damage and have the kill on a silver platter because of having a solid, consistent kill move(s.)

Don't cry broken yet. You haven't seen nothing until you've tried out Mario's new Up-smash, D-smash, and B-throw. Mario's Up-smash is the new Snake U-tilt. Mario's D-smash is the new MK D-smash. Mario's B-throw is a clone of Ness's B-throw. XD

But yeah, I really like Samus's improvements too. I just think Mario is broken is also incredibly good. KOing DDD at 128% with Up-smash is frankly amazing, and Mario's D-smash is almost as strong as his Up-smash, maybe even more lethal depending on stage position. B-throw reliably kills basically anyone unlucky enough to be grabbed near the edge at 110%.

Nobody has factored teams into the equation yet. I think Mario is probably going to be tied with G&W for overall best team partner because he's just that good. Mario's B-throw was already a very good attack in teams due to its safety, and with his knockback rivaling that of Ness's B-throw, he'll be amazingly reliable at scoring necessary KOs.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

A2ZOMG should team up with me. We would make the best BBrawl team.
Oh, and don't forget to join the Balanced Brawl group, everyone! You don't have to, but it might be a good place to generate discussion about this whole thing.

Just putting it out there that Ganon's upB is really too good. If you get grabbed by it or sourspotted, you are usually dead. It's not a fun move. I suppose this makes his recovery better, though.

 

[Big O]

I also think Samus had a few buffs too many. The downward Fsmash sends at a nasty angle with a lot of knockback and I don't think she really needs that much extra KO power. The homing missile buff to 8% damage is also a little too much imo. Other than that I think she is fine. A Samus that can actually kill is pretty scary considering her spam and zoning game are really good.

Mario's Usmash at least isn't nearly as disjointed as Snake's Utilt so I'm okay with how strong it is. Bthrow gives you plenty of time to DI but it is still scary how powerful it is. Dsmash is also a little too strong but I don't really think he is broken now. He is definitely a lot better now though and I can see him being in the top 10.

 

[BG3]

It's so much better knowing Mario, mascot of Nintendo, doesn't suck in a crossover Nintendo fighting game. But in all seriousness, Mario's buffs were amazing, he looks great to play as. Samus' buffs were also great, too. This might be looked as bias, but I don't really care if Samus ends up a little broken, LMAO, only because of the fact of how bad she was in vbrawl.

 

[Steeler]

mario should be in the top 10, it's ****ing mario!

 

[link2702]

just a few tiny questions bout bb, before I decide whether or not to bother with it.

Did you guys Fix it so link actually has a decent recovery now?

Did you guys buff C.falcons prioity enough from the rediculusly low priority he had.

and did you guys fix that broken bat from hell to where he ain't as rediculusly OPed as he was.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

1) link has so many good options, buffing his recovery would make him too good, so no

2) didnt touch his priority, but changed a lot of other things (check the second post for details)

3) oh hell yes

 

[link2702]

1) link has so many good options, buffing his recovery would make him too good, so no

2) didnt touch his priority, but changed a lot of other things (check the second post for details)

3) oh hell yes

:< u could of at least gave his spin attack just a TAD better height, didn't need to be insanely better, personally, I would of opted out of having a few of the other buffs for him having a better recovery.

So...While C.falcon doesn't have much more priority, after looking through all the other buffs you gave him, ESPCIALLY his Side b not leaving him helpless if it hits, has me <3

Mk....i'd have to actually play him/play against him in BB to see if the changes to him were signifcant enough, or at least see a full vid of Mk in BB in action.

buuuuut c.falcon one has me wanting to play it. o.o

 

[Stealth Raptor]

trust me the nerfs dont look all that special but they are enough to decrease his kill power to tolerable levels.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link is really good in BBrawl. He's basically Olimar's cousin. He has **** options onstage, and you'll be lucky to get him before he beats the **** out of you.

His Up-B is the best out of shield KO move in the game along with Mario's Up-smash, and running up and randomly Up-Bing people is a very scary tactic. Arrow canceling is really gay now that his arrows have great knockback. The increased knockback of Link's F-tilt and F-smash does him a lot of favors too.

 

[link2702]

hmm...well......folks i'll get bb setup then sometime tomorrow, PM me here your FC so i can get a feel for the game then, OR meet me at AiB where I normally hang out at (look up a user by the name of The Fallen Angel) but lemme get a few of ya'll on my Friend list, so I can test BB out.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Link is ****ing amazing now.
I main him and Wario now.
And IC's, they desync so weird but I can't say I don't love it.
Meta, now you have to work a lot harder for your kills, because Up B and Down Smash having decreased kill power, and Tornado catches less, kinda' pops you out now.

 

[Crescens]

Hey, I've been playing BBrawl for a couple of days and am loving some of the changes to Samus such as:

1) Increased knockback of super missiles, dash attack, f/bthrows and d-smash/d-tilt
2) Increased damage on bombs and charge shot
3) New knockback on her d-throw and new pummel hitbox

However, I do have some issues (and hopefully the input will be considered.)

For starters, I think the homing missile damage should have been kept to 5%. It's very spammable and useful as a pressuring tool, but the fact that it does more damage than most other projectiles in the game now is a bit unfair. (And I'm a Samus main, so no bias included. Getting hit twice by homing missiles resulting in 15-16% is ridiculous.)

Another thing I'm not quite fond of is the new knockback on her u-throw. I feel that the old knockback ratios were fine as it gave her time to charge her shot when opponents were at high percentages. Now I feel as if the purpose is now solely as an alternative to her d-throw, which I don't feel is necessary. I'm not sure if you can return the old u-throw knockback while keeping her d-throw the way it is, but if you can, it's something to consider in the next version.

Finally, the knockback angles on her f-tilts and f-smashes are finally what they should be! ^^

But the knockback of her tilted down f-smash is absurdly high for a character who can quickly rack up damage long range, and the knockback of her f-tilts should have stayed the same instead of nerfed. If you can explain the new purpose of nerfing her f-tilt to me, that would be great. I still stand by the fact that her tilted down f-smash is too strong though.

I believe Samus is very competitive now. And thank you for that! But in general, I feel that everything just hits harder now when it shouldn't (and not just Samus, but I only have experience with Samus to give any valuable input), and that you should have to fight for the damage and the kill, not just the damage and have the kill on a silver platter because of having a solid, consistent kill move(s.)

Homing missiles at 5 are pretty terrible compared to any other projectile that deals 5. They're slow, laggy and unreliable in their aim. It's rare that you'll deal any real damage with them if the opponent has played against any Samus before. Granted, 8% could be a percent too much, but at 5%, compared with other projectiles like Falco's lasers or pits arrows is pretty pitiful.

Furthermore, I agree that the ftilt angle is perfect, but contest that the knockback change isn't a nerf. At low damages in vBrawl, the ftilt does absolutely nothing to get the opponent away from you. Against nubs, you can get another ftilt, but against competent players, the opponent will still be close enough to engage you in close quarters combat, which Samus is terrible at. The higher base but lower growth on the new ftilt puts the opponents right in the zair zone, which is exactly what Samus wants.

Agreed that the down angled fsmash is a pretty precarious change - potentially a bit too buffed, but I would need a bit more playing I suppose. I never used it in vBrawl; I only realized with the release of the change notes that it was boosted so much compared to the other angles. That said, I do support a boost to the move in general - it helps in her bad matchups much more than it helps her already good ones. The likes of Marth, Falco, Snake, Olimar or Squirtle will need to be as careful near the ledge as Samus needs to be against them on the stage. As it is now, I can imagine a down angled fsmash to a spike/edgehog and retether decimating Ivy from almost zero at the edge.

I hadn't thought of it, but you raise a great point on the upthrow. I would most certainly be in support of having the uthrow as an option to buy time - this would be much preferable to it having essentially the same function as her dthrow.

As for your final point - besides the potential abuse of her down angled fsmash, what sort of KOs are being handed to her on a silver platter? The change list is large, yes, but only that one buff is a great KO move. Fsmash/Dsmash and Dtilt are very marginal boosts (worse than bair still I believe?) - Samus' KO options are still relatively weak. The ftilt/throw/missile knockbacks are never going to KO - they're just a buff in spacing. The charge shot? Well, yeah, I admit. That's just scary.

I'm glad to see another Samus main - playing BBrawl, and with a similar view of her new arsenal as I have.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus is ****ing awesome in BBrawl. But before you nerf her, I'd look at people who I think are definitely better than her, like Mario, Marth, G&W, and Wario. Just saying lmao.

 

[Big O]

Well unless something huge happens I don't think anything is going to change until the next version in 4-6 months. I would put Samus over Mario personally.

 

[Thinkaman]

The Samus discussion is interesting!

I think the d-tilt and bomb changes are underrated. 13% bombs can let Samus effectively trade hits with a great deal of things and come out ahead. D-tilt makes her average KO ceiling a noticeable amount lower.

It will be interesting to see more opinions and agreements/disagreements as time goes on.

What do people think about Link's standing? Easy matchups, hard matchups?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm liking the way discussion is turning to a critical analysis of the characters; this is helpful. I really hope with 4-6 more months of this we'll have a good tier list ironed out, and that will really inform us of what we need to do to make that eventual next version a big improvement on the never ending road to perfect balance.

I will make the one comment on the discussion for now, and that's about Samus's down angled fsmash. Do note that it does less damage than the other angles, and when you factor in that it is doing 2% less damage than up angled fsmash, the difference in kill power actually becomes somewhat small. It's enough to matter, but it's not really that great of a kill move overall for how hard it really is to land (which makes sense because it's Samus). Also remember that the lower angle makes it more susceptible to DI than the other angles; that's important. I don't want to sour the Samus discussion so please continue, but I just thought I'd point this out about this particular move.

I'm going to let slip some of my own opinions here, mostly because Thinkaman already let his out and I want parity here.

I really, really think people are sleeping on the Pokemon Trainer. If he were an individual character, Ivysaur would be the most improved character in the game and has somewhat clear individual advantages against some notable characters (Ivysaur definitely beats Snake, for instance), Squirtle is still ridiculously good and really benefits from the removal of grab release, and Charizard hits REALLY hard. The fact that the three are linked means that PT really does just transcend the counterpick system in some ways. The buff to their switch speed is not a small one either; I bet someone who puts in the time and truly masters Pokemon Trainer as a whole character would be an incredibly deadly force in this game.

I think people underrate Wario's nerfs a bit. Those really do cut into his KO power; I think he struggles a bit to kill now. I'm extremely hesitant to call where he is going to fall, but I would definitely not call him a shoe-in for top.

Zero Suit Samus is someone people are probably sleeping on as well. I swear people just forget her because she's not on the character select screen, but really, she has a great mix of power, speed, and range, and her improved paralyzer really helps her out in overcoming how lousy her grab game is (since paralyzer -> grab is a combo now). Her fsmash in particular is a good move that no one believes is a good move, but I hope time will tell.

Ness and Lucas are perpetually underrated. They aren't even similar to each other so the fact that they are treated as a unit to me suggests that people just don't care about them... I really think people need to give these two a lot more of a fair shot than they have gotten before; I'm extremely confident that they have the tools to win and no truly crippling weaknesses. Ness has a super good air game and is amazing at scoring kills, and Lucas just has extremely good bread and butter, lots of stuff that's simple and good that he can really lean on and rely upon. Granted, Ness in particular is a bit of an advanced character, but that has never stopped anyone before!

That is probably all I can responsibly say. I do have many other ideas about the game's balance of course, but overall I think we did a good enough job that I would not be surprised to see any particular character emerge among the game's elite. I'm really interested in seeing how the greater smash community breaks this down though; as a developer, you really just never know what unforeseen implications of your actions the players will find.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Samus is ****ing awesome in BBrawl. But before you nerf her, I'd look at people who I think are definitely better than her, like Mario, Marth, G&W, and Wario. Just saying lmao.

Exactly my point.
I wish more people were playing BBrawl on Wi-fi, as I main Samus and manage to win only by playing very smart/carefully on vBrawl.

 

[bleyva]

could someone PLEASE just spoiler text the 3 easter eggs for everyone? i dont wanna sound like a ***** about this, and its not like im gonna find them (well besides the thievery one.)

please, i concede!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

mario should be in the top 10, it's ****ing mario!

No.

I really, really think people are sleeping on the Pokemon Trainer. If he were an individual character, Ivysaur would be the most improved character in the game and has somewhat clear individual advantages against some notable characters (Ivysaur definitely beats Snake, for instance), Squirtle is still ridiculously good and really benefits from the removal of grab release, and Charizard hits REALLY hard. The fact that the three are linked means that PT really does just transcend the counterpick system in some ways. The buff to their switch speed is not a small one either; I bet someone who puts in the time and truly masters Pokemon Trainer as a whole character would be an incredibly deadly force in this game.

I just thought I'd mention... have you guys ever considered doing the wild pokemon thing like Brawl+?

 

[Linkshot]

RESULTS OF FIRST bBRAWL TOURNAMENT (7 entries, Ottawa was not amused :/):

1st. MK/Fox
2nd. Jigglypuff
3rd. Lucario/Ness/Mario
4th. Kirby/D3/Falcon/PT
5th. Marth
6th. Diddy/Marth/Falcon
7th. Random

 

[Spelt]

fox is broken

 

[Linkshot]

fox is broken

He went Fox like, twice, lawl.

Edited. I missed some characters.

 

[Spelt]

Well fox's upsmash is still broken, at least.
and i like that a poof got 2nd

 

[Steeler]

I really, really think people are sleeping on the Pokemon Trainer. If he were an individual character, Ivysaur would be the most improved character in the game and has somewhat clear individual advantages against some notable characters (Ivysaur definitely beats Snake, for instance), Squirtle is still ridiculously good and really benefits from the removal of grab release, and Charizard hits REALLY hard. The fact that the three are linked means that PT really does just transcend the counterpick system in some ways. The buff to their switch speed is not a small one either; I bet someone who puts in the time and truly masters Pokemon Trainer as a whole character would be an incredibly deadly force in this game.

don't be sillyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[blakinola]

Just finished playing around with gdorf and some other ppl. I like BBrawl. I really hope it can replace the norm soon. Very nice job to everyone who was involved in the making of this codeset.

 

[SaltyKracka]

His Up-B is the best out of shield KO move in the game along with Mario's Up-smash.

Marth would like to have a word with you.

 

[Big O]

Bowser has something to say to both of you.

 

[Linkshot]

Scraa is much manlier than Dolphin Slash.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Scraa is much manlier than Dolphin Slash.

actually, everything is much manlier than anything about Marth

 

[JOE!]

allrighty, i goofed around for a bit, and I think ive found a MU that is ove rthe "60:40" max of the project:

Sawnik vs Earthbound characters.


That spring is just so goofy to those poor kids if sonic gets them past the ledge. Past 60%, im pretty sure a spring gimp will gaurentee a KO if they use their 2nd jump and they are not significantly above the ledge:

.............................................................. = alive at <60%

______stagefloor_____
\____________________/
.............................................................. = dead at <60%


It seems that if thrown below the floor-line as shown, the spring would push them just far enough for the UpB to either not be able to angle right to hit ledge, or just too low/far away to work or just way to easy to ledgehog.

essentially, a Dthrow or Bthrow at the ledge could mean insta gimp for them.

Granted, ive only noticed this on stages where this is easily doable, such as FD, Smashville and Frigate Orpheon

Stages like Yoshi's island, or the first part of Castle siege may yield different results for a CP, or better yet stages where you cannot do this like Mushroomy Kingdom or Bridge of Eldin.



Onto the b00zersaurus :

CG changes have definatley helped him out, and he can rack some great damage with the % buffs to his fortress and Fair....but I can't help thinking that the grab release changes will actually hinder him a little in a few MU's.

For example, unlike Vs sonic, teh Earthbound kids no longer need to fear Bowser's Grab Release, and can pressure him a bit better.


I can see him actually lowering a bit in the eventual tier list due to the possibility of his MU's mostly being 40:60, opponents favor <.<




Yoshi feels freakin prefect .

There are 2 minor gripes though:

i gotta get used to egg roll canceling His sweetspot Fair grounding ability seems a little tacked on. It is fairly easy to see coming, and kindof hard to get just right. I wouldve opted for the effect to be on the lower half of the hitbox, and not the middle, it would be a smidge easier to hit, and can take opponents by surprise a bit more seeing as it comes out a tad later, giving yoshi the "WTF!?" setup as intended.

The KB compensation on his tilts seems a little too much actually. I managed to Ftilt-walk 1 step-repeat my friend's Marth for a good 50%. and my Friend's DDD for about 65% with a few Utilt juggles mixed in.

It seems as if it is like a situational psuedo tilt lock now if you follow it right.





Overall the game is awesome, and theres something i believe is a fun little effect of Random ripping being removed:

Does anyone else feel a bit more....slide-y while running around?

 

[Linkshot]

It does feel much better to not trip XD

FREEDOM

 

[BG3]

Doesn't tripping alone just tell us what Sakurai thinks of competitive gaming?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Doesn't tripping alone just tell us what Sakurai thinks of competitive gaming?

Sakurai was thinking on a party game, that could be made competitive, we just should have to accept that we were unlucky by tripping on your opponent's feet (despite that hurts... a lot...). but that is was just a part of the game, isn't wasn't it?