Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[BG3]

Sakurai was thinking on a party game, that could be made competitive, we just should have to accept that we were unlucky by tripping on your opponent's feet (despite that hurts... a lot...). but that is was just a part of the game, isn't wasn't it?

Since when did he ever say that?

 

[Linkshot]

All Sakurai wanted was a game where the goal wasn't to win; it was to have fun.

 

[dansal]

Winning's pretty fun.

I don't really post much here but I'm loving BBrawl! My New favorite characters would have to be sonic and mario.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Since when did he ever say that?

They didn't made it competitive, WE had to (and that was my point), having to deal with weird issues of a fight-based party game.

All Sakurai wanted was a game where the goal wasn't to win; it was to have fun.

SSB64 was a pilot, a cool genius' idea that could be well exploited.
Melee was made mainly to win, but casual players find the skills needed for play it just ridiculously high.
Brawl was made to "counter" that (a fail, must say), but then competitive Melee players got their skills screwed.

hope next SSB could be played fot both fun and competition

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Finnnnaaalllllyyy

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't think Sakurai's motivations are as sinister as so many people say; even tripping has many plausible explanations. Based off what he said on the dojo, I think the main purpose of tripping was to keep players on their toes; since you never know when you might trip (assuming you dash a lot), you always have to be ready to react to a suddenly negative situation. From our perspective here, we can easily see any good this provides in testing adaptability is overridden by the negative it causes in, well, inconsistency. Granted, in any case, tripping is honestly very unimportant in Brawl; it's a minor negative, but it's not that big of a deal. Of course, Balanced Brawl wants to make the game better so we remove a minor negative such as this, but using tripping as the starting justification to spell out a long conspiracy theory about Sakurai hating competitive Brawl is a little silly.

If Sakurai actually wanted to kill competitive Brawl, he could have done things such as the following:

-Remove the ability to turn items off
-Add a universal "aura" system that was much stronger than Lucario's and based more off stocks than percents
-Remove the "team attack on" feature
-Add a mechanic that requires extremely high technical skill to exploit that creates incredibly degenerate gameplay. For instance, press "A" on the same frame you get hit by an opponent's attack to cause them to be hit instead of you.

Something like the last one would be key, and it would be crushing. Low level players who enjoy free for alls with items wouldn't care at all; it would just be more zany fun for them, and honestly it's so hard to do it wouldn't matter much. At high levels, players who are better at it would totally dominate, and the game would become a "who can press 'A' with precise timing" test instead of a real competitive fighter.

Seriously, if you intentionally want to make a game suck as a competitive fighter, it's so easy. Just introduce obscure and difficult mechanics that don't affect low levels (because they're too hard to do) but cause extremely degenerate gameplay at high levels. You would probably want to come up with a few of them just in case one of them turns out not to be as bad as you thought. This "strategy" took me about a minute to come up with; there's no way in over a year of development time Sakurai wouldn't have thought of it or something even more crushing if he really wanted to kill competitive smash. I surmise that he really didn't, and while he definitely wasn't making the game just for competitive players, he probably had no particular opposition to the game being competitive if he didn't try to allow it to prosper as best he could (which could actually be a lot more limited than some people think!).

I've said it several times, but Thinkaman and I wouldn't have made Balanced Brawl if we didn't already like Brawl. From our perspective, Sakurai did a great job. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but then again, what is? Some of the mistakes turned out to have rather negative repercussions on the game of course, and we take it as our main mission to fix those issues. Sakurai himself discussed how one could go on balancing the game forever, and he concluded that he had to release the thing and be done with it. We are just picking up where he left off, and we're trading his access to top quality development resources with a freedom to design the game without regard for popularity or profit (we are fully willing to make known unpopular design decisions if we know it makes the game better) as well as the perspective provided by observing and even participating in tournament level Brawl. I mean, can you imagine trying to balance a game as complex as Brawl before it came out? There's hardly any data to use to judge what you've done, and even worse, the characters you're evaluating aren't even constants since they're actively in development.

I suppose what I'm saying is that people need to give Sakurai a break. He makes a game we all play and continue to enjoy even over a year after it comes out, and it's the core engine for this project. He has done so much for us; it's really not fair that he gets bashed like he does.

I do want to get into a lot of these specific discussions of balance and probably have another long post as my next post (one that's just about what people are saying about the initial impressions of balance), but I felt as though I had to post about this first.

 

[JOE!]

@sakurai bashers:

unlike AA and Thinka, the thing to remember is that Sakurai didnt have the ability to check up on how the game really played out between people who are good at it, and forsee all the "exploits" like CGs and Grab releases while making brawl, or any of the smash games for that matter.

and now that it is out, he cannot go back and fix it, liek Think and AA can. It is not entirley his fault remember.

I mean, look at the stuff we found with BBrawl allready: "mario is OP!" "yoshi wont ****ing die!" "captain falcon kneed me during my 1st stock...and I never respawned...."

Times that by 1000, and you got Sakurai's dilemma. Who knows, if he had the chance he might be doing what our 2 hackers are doing: fixing brawl

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Yes! I've found the Super Mario 64 Easter egg! HURRAHH

Spoiler

I have to say, nice easter egg.

I'm still searching for "Gluttony" though.

 

[Leon89]

hmm.... i'm having a bit of trouble with the texture compatible addition of BB. i am not seeing the re-texture of marth i have. my file is stored in:

private\wii\app\rsbe\pf\fighter\marth\Marth02.pac

i have tried all the colors of Marth trying to find it, but it does not seem to be working. but the game runs fine other wise, i'm just not seeing the texture.

on another note i'm really wanting to know about the Super Mario 64, how is it done. i know you need more than 2 player. does it matter whether or not it is a team match? can it be done with any characters? can it be done on any stage?

 

[b2j135]

hmm.... i'm having a bit of trouble with the texture compatible addition of BB. i am not seeing the re-texture of marth i have. my file is stored in:

private\wii\app\rsbe\pf\fighter\marth\Marth02.pac

i have tried all the colors of Marth trying to find it, but it does not seem to be working. but the game runs fine other wise, i'm just not seeing the texture.

on another note i'm really wanting to know about the Super Mario 64, how is it done. i know you need more than 2 player. does it matter whether or not it is a team match? can it be done with any characters? can it be done on any stage?

should be:
private\wii\app\rsbe\pf\fighter\marth\FitMarth02.pac

 

[bleyva]

If Sakurai actually wanted to kill competitive Brawl, he could have done things such as the following:

-Remove the ability to turn items off
-Add a universal "aura" system that was much stronger than Lucario's and based more off stocks than percents
-Remove the "team attack on" feature
-Add a mechanic that requires extremely high technical skill to exploit that creates incredibly degenerate gameplay. For instance, press "A" on the same frame you get hit by an opponent's attack to cause them to be hit instead of you.

you forgot "Make his own characters extremely over-powered"........oh wait

Sak may not have been trying to 100% intentionally destroy competitive smash, but anyone who thinks he DOESNT enjoy trolling smashers, youre crazy

3 landmaster FS......cmon now

 

[Leon89]

should be:
private\wii\app\rsbe\pf\fighter\marth\FitMarth02.pac

thank you b2j135, i'll see if it works.

Edit: hmm... no dice, i'll guess i will redownload both the pac file and the gct for BB texture, and maybe rename the pac file to a different color.

Edit2: haha got it to work. just needed the .pcs file. >.>

 

[The Milk Monster]

you forgot "Make his own characters extremely over-powered"........oh wait

Sak may not have been trying to 100% intentionally destroy competitive smash, but anyone who thinks he DOESNT enjoy trolling smashers, youre crazy

3 landmaster FS......cmon now

The only one of his characters that could be even considered close to being OPed is Meta, and that's still highly debatable.

 

[Linkshot]

My philosophy is that MK is only overpowered because Sakurai knows him best, and, as a character in general, he's supposed to be an outstanding force.

 

[Thinkaman]

First, a word from our sponsors:

I am very glad that the game has been enjoyed by many people. Some play seriously and others play it for fun. Then there are also those who play the home run derby mode. Different people playing it for many different reasons makes me feel good about the game.

I really don't have anything to add to that. I think we're done here.

allrighty, i goofed around for a bit, and I think ive found a MU that is ove rthe "60:40" max of the project:

Sawnik vs Earthbound characters.

That spring is just so goofy to those poor kids if sonic gets them past the ledge. Past 60%, im pretty sure a spring gimp will gaurentee a KO if they use their 2nd jump and they are not significantly above the ledge:

.............................................................. = alive at <60%

______stagefloor_____
\____________________/
.............................................................. = dead at <60%

It seems that if thrown below the floor-line as shown, the spring would push them just far enough for the UpB to either not be able to angle right to hit ledge, or just too low/far away to work or just way to easy to ledgehog.

essentially, a Dthrow or Bthrow at the ledge could mean insta gimp for them.

Granted, ive only noticed this on stages where this is easily doable, such as FD, Smashville and Frigate Orpheon

Stages like Yoshi's island, or the first part of Castle siege may yield different results for a CP, or better yet stages where you cannot do this like Mushroomy Kingdom or Bridge of Eldin.

I think you might be underestimating the tools Ness and Lucas have to get around the spring spike. PSI Magnet alone is enough to really throw off Sonic's spacial planning, and I'm pretty sure their aerials all clash with the spring. (At least I know Ness's do.)

Sonic's spring is a game-changer in a lot of matchups, though. Luckily Falcon and Ganondorf's uairs deal with it well, since it is already very dooming for them. Honestly, if Sonic wasn't also uniquely vulnerable to Link's arrows, the spring would have been toned down for Link's sake. I actually played a lot of Link/Sonic matches last night, and they are pretty ridiculous. Jury is out on exactly who is favored.

Onto the b00zersaurus :

CG changes have definatley helped him out, and he can rack some great damage with the % buffs to his fortress and Fair....but I can't help thinking that the grab release changes will actually hinder him a little in a few MU's.

For example, unlike Vs sonic, teh Earthbound kids no longer need to fear Bowser's Grab Release, and can pressure him a bit better.

I can see him actually lowering a bit in the eventual tier list due to the possibility of his MU's mostly being 40:60, opponents favor <.<

Bowser had four passes, actually. He was continuously underwhelming in tests. (Samus was similar.) Like Samus, we eventually had to stop throwing buffs at Bowser before we created a monster.

I'd suggest that Bowser's biggest buff isn't so much dair (which is pretty powerful by the way... it's just one of those rare buffs that you have to consciously think about using now that it no longer sucks...) but the up-b buff. If fresh, it gives Bowser a really, really accessible KO option at low %.

In fact, only Rest can compare with the knockback it does for an attack that comes out on frame 3. You can call it "Killer Whale Slash" if you want.

Also, anyone who plays Bowser should explore the d-throw.

Yoshi feels freakin prefect .

There are 2 minor gripes though:

i gotta get used to egg roll canceling His sweetspot Fair grounding ability seems a little tacked on. It is fairly easy to see coming, and kindof hard to get just right. I wouldve opted for the effect to be on the lower half of the hitbox, and not the middle, it would be a smidge easier to hit, and can take opponents by surprise a bit more seeing as it comes out a tad later, giving yoshi the "WTF!?" setup as intended.

Yoshi fair has two hitboxes, and grounding is on the lower one (the spike).

I think I quoted JGALT and Ampharos in the last topic about why the fair helps Yoshi so much. It's like a reflector, where it's hardly ever used but it discourages the opponent from doing things. (In this case, powerful attacks with lots of cooldown.) If Yoshi can keep the battle to little hits, he's probably going to win.

The KB compensation on his tilts seems a little too much actually. I managed to Ftilt-walk 1 step-repeat my friend's Marth for a good 50%. and my Friend's DDD for about 65% with a few Utilt juggles mixed in.

It seems as if it is like a situational psuedo tilt lock now if you follow it right.

Hmm... it's possible that the extra hitlag of the higher damage is having an effect? You *can* SDI out of this, right?

Overall, thanks a ton for your feedback!

 

[BG3]

The only one of his characters that could be even considered close to being OPed is Meta, and that's still highly debatable.

He was banned, that says something. Did you even read the poll on whether to ban MK or not? Many people, like Fiction, explained in detail how MK is indeed broken.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yes lets look at the poll. 55% yes and 45% no. not much of a majority. and some of fictions vids were like...........wtf. but yeah lets not get a is mk broken or not debate going lol

also the sbr chose to not ban him

 

[BG3]

yes lets look at the poll. 55% yes and 45% no. not much of a majority. and some of fictions vids were like...........wtf. but yeah lets not get a is mk broken or not debate going lol

also the sbr chose to not ban him

Look at Fiction's lengthy document, it explains in detail how MK is indeed broken, and shouldn't be in competitive brawl.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i read those and im sorry to say i dont agree with him on some points. its w/e though, everyone has their opinions

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Meta Knight wasn't banned. There was a SLIGHT majority, but you go off of 2/3rds majority, which wasn't close to being met at all. MK isn't nearly broken, and even bringing this up in the BBrawl thread is dumb.

MK is less good here.

Bowser is an interesting case, alongside Lucario. They both got several damage buffs that aren't as obvious as something like Link's arrows or whatever, but they were both already naturally better than people like Mario and Samus, so I don't want to shrug off their buffs so easily; it's easy to claim that someone like Mario who has changed drastically is now top 10 material, but the nonobvious buffs shouldnt be overlooked so carelessly.

Lucario could just as easily be top ten.

but uh I don't think IC's are that good in BBrawl...

 

[BG3]

My philosophy is that MK is only overpowered because Sakurai knows him best, and, as a character in general, he's supposed to be an outstanding force.

In this position, many people should've been next to Sakurai as his equal during development, designing characters that they know best. This is why you see Kirby in smash so similar to how he is in his own games. If a Zelda developer was designing all Zelda characters instead of Sakurai, then I'm pretty sure we'd be much more happy. Also, considering that Sakurai is a pretty kind person, I'm not even sure if he'd reject the idea.

Sorry, AA and Think, I'll stop now.

Also, concerning BBrawl, how come G&W is unchanged? He's pretty stupid in vbrawl. His smashes are way too fast to be as powerful as they are. It kills around 70-80%! That's just ridiculous. Maybe a slight nerf? But keeping the turtle was a good idea, since I'm not sure if he has much else, LMAO.

 

[Thinkaman]

Nerfing moves jsut because they are good or someone doesn't like them is a recipe for disaster; that's why design by committee never works, because it degenerates into that.

We have to base all decisions on matchup data and testing.

 

[blakinola]

GW has no game-breaking properties. No disjointed hitboxes, and no super crazy survivability (bucket braking is nice, but it only goes so far.) Same thing with Marth/Diddy. I believe they're pretty fine as they are.

Perhaps you have trouble killing GDubz?

 

[MK26]

You guys should release a codeset with a super-OP mk, just to have a bBrawl BR meta ban discussion. Then ban him and replace his spot on the css with ZSS.

why do i get the feeling that kirby got shafted? He already had even matchups against some ridiculously low-tiered characters in vBrawl, such as Mario, Ness, Sonic, Charizard, Squirtle...He's really weird in that his matchup against the top tiers are all over the place, but as you go down the tier list, you start to see a lot of 55-45s and 50-50s (until a bunch of 60-40s and higher at the bottom)

 

[JOE!]

wait, Dthrow does less KB on boozer?

I think we can actually Dthrow->fsmash now :D

 

[BG3]

Nerfing moves jsut because they are good or someone doesn't like them is a recipe for disaster; that's why design by committee never works, because it degenerates into that.

We have to base all decisions on matchup data and testing.

Um..what? G&W's hitboxes are ridiculous. His d-tilt extends all around him, and he can use it repeatedly without any type of cooldown. Against characters like C.falcon and Ganon, this becomes too much of a problem. And don't you think his smashes should at least be slowed down just a little? They have very small amounts of lag for how powerful they are, and can also be abused(especially d-smash). It can kill the heavywieghts around 80-100%! That, IMO is just stupid.

 

[PKNintendo]

I think you might be underestimating the tools Ness and Lucas have to get around the spring spike. PSI Magnet alone is enough to really throw off Sonic's spacial planning, and I'm pretty sure their aerials all clash with the spring. (At least I know Ness's do.)

Don't think so bro. The psi magnet isn't nearly that great of a tool to protect Ness. Ness gets ***** gimped by Sonic and there's nothing we can do about it.

Am I mad? No. Bad matchups are SUPPOSED to exist.
Lucas shouldn't be getting gimped by the spring. Ever.

 

[Thinkaman]

why do i get the feeling that kirby got shafted? He already had even matchups against some ridiculously low-tiered characters in vBrawl, such as Mario, Ness, Sonic, Charizard, Squirtle...He's really weird in that his matchup against the top tiers are all over the place, but as you go down the tier list, you start to see a lot of 55-45s and 50-50s (until a bunch of 60-40s and higher at the bottom)

First, I think you'll find that a lot of the buffs other characters got don't affect Kirby quite as much as other characters. Most buffs were focused around dealing with high priority, increasing combo potential, and being more safe on hit. These things have less impact on Kirby.

Second, up-throw doing 1% more is nothing to scoff at; it's a very overlooked change. The amount it kills sooner might surprise you, and it's nice to have a reliable KO option when bair is stale. This should help Kirby a lot in harder matchups where he is forced to rely on bair.

Third, the Stone buff is surprisingly effective against G&W and to some extent Marth. It's one of the only things that can beat their normally invincible recovery.

Fourth, Copy doing 10% instead of 6% is quite nice. It makes Copy more worth it, that's for sure.

Finally, I just want to clarify that Kirby *did* get to keep all this chainthrows. This was not a polarizing enough factor in his matchups to remove, as it is just something he has that is more or less good against everyone.

wait, Dthrow does less KB on boozer?

I think we can actually Dthrow->fsmash now :D

Um..what? G&W's hitboxes are ridiculous. His d-tilt extends all around him, and he can use it repeatedly without any type of cooldown. Against characters like C.falcon and Ganon, this becomes too much of a problem. And don't you think his smashes should at least be slowed down just a little? They have very small amounts of lag for how powerful they are, and can also be abused(especially d-smash). It can kill the heavywieghts around 80-100%! That, IMO is just stupid.

You are preaching to the preacher in terms of G&W's range. Ampharos and I have both said many times how much of this project was spent trying to improve G&W and Marth matchups specifically. You'll find many buffs specifically chosen because they deal with high-speed, high-priority attacks.

Example of the day: Sonic d-tilt. Sonic d-tilt was a terrible attack, but it could reach through anything G&W and Marth did! By adding a healthy amount of damage to d-tilt and making the knockback and angle setup chases for Sonic, a previously junk move became a helpful counter. I played with a Sonic main last night, and he caught on quickly. He even started slipping d-tilt into other matchups, in occasionally situations where he noticed it would help out. It almost works like an ignition that restarts Sonic's game after the opponent gets control and stops it.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I really doubt Ness loses that bad if at all to Sonic. I would rate Ness in the upper half of the cast if I had to make a tier list, without a certain spot in mind.

 

[-dUb-]

Ampharos and I have both said many times how much of this project was spent trying to improve G&W and Marth matchups specifically.

What about the G&W vs Marth Matchup? if neither was changed, then wouldn't Marth still be rather favored? Or is it not as one-sided as I think it is?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Marth is favored, but it's not particularly one-sided (magnitude 60-40 or less which is within the range of acceptable for this project). The added stage diversity of Balanced Brawl helps Mr. Game & Watch here as well; I don't think this matchup will prove a particular problem.

Ness's recovery is so misunderstood. The thing is that a lot of Ness players do a very stupid thing, and they seldom get called out on it. That is, they drop to an approximately 45 degree angle below the stage and then use Pk Thunder. A better strategy is to double jump and use Pk Thunder immediately and aim for the ledge from arbitrary angles, including above the stage (obviously don't use Pk Thunder if your double jump alone will make it back!). It's a lot harder, of course, but skilled Ness players shouldn't have any problem with it at all. Also, remember that you are allowed to shoot above the stage safely; Ness's amazing aerial mobility while in helpless fall state means he can air control out of the way of punishment fairly easily against most of the cast (Ness and Lucas are really the only two like this to my knowledge; they don't lose any aerial mobility at all from helpless). This general recovery strategy should probably greatly help against Sonic's spring as well; Ness is probably flying back to the stage before Sonic even gets over him to use the Spring.

 

[MK26]

Kirby has 3 aerials that trade hits favourably (at least position-wise <_<) with Marth's up-b. Strong hit nair (needz moar powah), dair, and strong hit bair. If Kirby has one saving grace in the Marth matchup, it's that he can edgeguard him like a mofo.

Unfortunately, none of them can get through the parachute, but that's a different story...

Thanks for explaining the other changes though. I'd just like to say I'm very impressed with the way you and AA handled the process of balancing the game, and several times while reading the changelist i thought "wait, wouldn't that be too much of a buff? Actually, no, that makes a hell of a lot of sense", or "i never would have thought of that, but it's a great idea". Congrats you two, you've done a great job.

Personally, I think 4-6 months is too long to wait though...closed testing probably should be followed up by a few small tweaks (maybe like once a month) before you release an Official version...but that's just my opinion, in a mod where you aren't changing much of the core physics, that might not apply.

By the way, any more hints on that Super Mario 64 easter egg? :D

 

[PKNintendo]

Marth is favored, but it's not particularly one-sided (magnitude 60-40 or less which is within the range of acceptable for this project). The added stage diversity of Balanced Brawl helps Mr. Game & Watch here as well; I don't think this matchup will prove a particular problem.

Ness's recovery is so misunderstood. The thing is that a lot of Ness players do a very stupid thing, and they seldom get called out on it. That is, they drop to an approximately 45 degree angle below the stage and then use Pk Thunder. A better strategy is to double jump and use Pk Thunder immediately and aim for the ledge from arbitrary angles, including above the stage (obviously don't use Pk Thunder if your double jump alone will make it back!). It's a lot harder, of course, but skilled Ness players shouldn't have any problem with it at all. Also, remember that you are allowed to shoot above the stage safely; Ness's amazing aerial mobility while in helpless fall state means he can air control out of the way of punishment fairly easily against most of the cast (Ness and Lucas are really the only two like this to my knowledge; they don't lose any aerial mobility at all from helpless). This general recovery strategy should probably greatly help against Sonic's spring as well; Ness is probably flying back to the stage before Sonic even gets over him to use the Spring.

Genius post right there. I agree with Mr. Excalator. Ness is pretty much around upper side of mid now with these fixes.

 

[Thinkaman]

I would like to share some data I was personally curious about.

First, Sonic's disadvantage on d-throw tech is 3 frames. This should be the exact same, but players are using his d-throw much more now, so it's important. So for example, Mario could get a perfectly buffered up-b out, but Marth could not get Dolphin Slash.

On to Bowser. First his up-b. I tested on Meta Knight for some precise numbers, and from the center of FD in training mode it kills at 98% with no DI and 116% with frame-perfect DI. Now imagine it is even stronger when fresh!

As for his d-throw... First, slightly faster falling characters cannot jump out of it, and agiasnt these Bowser has a 2-4 frame advantage. (Fox, Falco, and similar are 2, Marth and G&W are 4) I recall him having a 5 frame advantage on Mario, who could jump out, and the same advantage against DDD, who couldn't. DDD is probably who it is best against, ironically enough, as well as Olimar who doesn't want to jump but faces a 7-frame disadvantage otherwise. Slower falling characters face a massive Bowser advantage, but have a bigger window to jump out. Jigglypuff for example should always jump out, or else she faces a 14-frame Bowser advantage. Samus was 11 frames, as another example. For most enemies I suggest trying a basic mixup of d-throw -> dash grab -> d-throw f-tilt or maybe even f-smash.

This might be random, but I also suddenly convinced myself that Lucas is the most underrated character who is sleeping under everyone's noses. His d-tilt is amazing now, and he can do his famous dair combo at just about any %... Add in the spot dodge and 12% jab combo on top of a 11% projectile and you've got a solid, solid ground character even before taking into account his countless gimmicks.

 

[JOE!]

The results of messing with Boozer's new Dthrow:

Dthrow->ftilt: fairlyeasy to hit, and a near gaurenteed kill setup around 120% near edges. Works on just about everyone

Dthrow->Fsmash: very hard to do against small/light characters, they usuallyare able to immediatley shield or just get out of the way after hitting the ground. It is a bit easier on heavier/bigger chars due to the KB not sending them as far, but still rather dependant on your opponent messing up.

Dthrow->jabs: very, very hard. Essentially the opponent has to di towards you due to the range being JUST far enough away not to hit.

Dthrow->firebreath: still a guarenteed 18% at least, but it seems oipponents can get out of it much quicker...

Dthrow->fortress: impossible if opponent holds shield...

I think this dthrow change was actually a bad Idea O.O

The vBrawl version's higher KB made the opponent (usually) do a kindof flopping animation against the ground, allowing Dthrow to setup into jab, firebreath(less escapable) and fortress.

This version is a bit easier to hit Ftilit out of, but it feels even worse to try and set up my dthrow->diesel headbutt of doom combo

The lowered KB seems to allow opponents to tech, bring up shield, or possibly even jump (saw sawnik and fox do it) before or on hitting the ground...kindof going against the whole reason teh KB was lowered in the first place: setups...


Chars tested: Ness, Sonic, fox, link, snake, ddd.

I used lvl 7 comps for their nearish human reaction time on the "run" setting in training mode. this makes them try and get away from me as much as possible, and shouldve replicated DI in a human opponent trying to get away from a setup.

My suggestion would be to either:

A) if possible, create more hitstun from Dthrow, preventing opponents from immediatley being able to neuter any setup from bowser, and ruining the point of reduced KB
B) shave off some time from the end of Dthrow's animation. Bowser pauses for a moment before being able to follow up anything, and it is during those few frames that opponents either roll, shield or even jump away.

EDIT:

heh, what a cincidence, eh thinka?

also, utilt kills at like 110% on fd now, give or take a few%

 

[ddonaldo]

it says zeldas standard A attack has flower element
is that the same as lips stick "poison" damage, seems a bit overpowered if thats the case so im guessing im misunderstanding

 

[Thinkaman]

First Joe, d-throw cannot be teched, and I can absolutely promise you it is better now than it was. The old d-throw could be jumped out of my more characters and put enemies way outside tilt or regrab range.

Don't overlook regrabs! They are really good, especially against DDD.

Fast falling characters can't jump out, there's no way Fox did.

Last thing, jab isn't an awful options because jab2 will reach even if jab1 doesn't, shield pokes decently, and has low cooldown.

it says zeldas standard A attack has flower element
is that the same as lips stick "poison" damage, seems a bit overpowered if thats the case so im guessing im misunderstanding

Flower damage varies basedo n the damage of the attack. If they do not input any buttons, the flower will deal double the original damage. Under normal conditions, a human mashing buttosn will only tkae the original damage. So, for Zelda's 3-hit 1% jab hitboxes, the flower they make combined will deal 6% extra if they hit no buttons, or 3% extra normally. The more important factor here is how the lower knockback jab sets up f-tilt perfectly, which can lead to u-smash.

 

[JOE!]

i dunno why then, but when i did Dthrow-jab, Fox was jumping away...

did you take into account the lag of Dthrow ending combined with when hitboxes come out on follow-ups for the advantage data? All my testing is showing me taht they can get out of stuff easier :/

or maybe its because they are able to recover from it quicker, and bring up sheilds or roll, etc and make a noticable block or dodge...

 

[PKNintendo]

This might be random, but I also suddenly convinced myself that Lucas is the most underrated character who is sleeping under everyone's noses. His d-tilt is amazing now, and he can do his famous dair combo at just about any %... Add in the spot dodge and 12% jab combo on top of a 11% projectile and you've got a solid, solid ground character even before taking into account his countless gimmicks.

Each of those changes added in a really nice cumulative effect to Lucas' game. It's a wonder why you think he owns. He's definetely in mid now, seeing as how he was top of low. Spot dodge change was really well done. I can't get over how awesome it was.

 

[GwJ]

Anyone up for some BBrawl wifi friendlies? I wanna play some real peeps.