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Balanced Brawl Standard Release

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BG3

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G&W's Smashes have INFINITELY less commitment with super fast charge releases and virtually non-existent ending lag. Even if you block his smashes or if he whiffs them, they CANNOT be punished 99% of the time.

Thank you A2ZOMG, you just explained perfectly why I think G&W smashes should be nerfed. Even if you do buff certain characters to hold up more of a match against G&W, the fact still stands that stats such as this is just completely ridiculous. Seriously, super fast charge releases+no ending lag+very hard to punish+kills even heavyweights around 80-100%=dumb.

I know consistently asking for buffs and nerfs is a bad way to balance a game, but things that are just stupid good like G&W's smashes should be fixed. You already fixed stupid things like the knockback on some of Snake's moves, so something like this should be at least changed to be more of a normal, fair move. What I mean by this is make it have SOME end lag so the insane power it has behind it can at least be punished so G&W knows not to abuse it. Right now, he can consistently abuse it against some of the lower tiers without any fear of retaliation whatsoever. If you think that qualifies as "balanced", then something is seriously wrong with that.
 

A2ZOMG

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G&W's Smashes have INFINITELY less commitment with super fast charge releases and virtually non-existent ending lag. Even if you block his smashes or if he whiffs them, they CANNOT be punished 99% of the time.

Thank you A2ZOMG, you just explained perfectly why I think G&W smashes should be nerfed. Even if you do buff certain characters to hold up more of a match against G&W, the fact still stands that stats such as this is just completely ridiculous. Seriously, super fast charge releases+no ending lag+very hard to punish+kills even heavyweights around 80-100%=dumb.

I know consistently asking for buffs and nerfs is a bad way to balance a game, but things that are just stupid good like G&W's smashes should be fixed. You already fixed stupid things like the knockback on some of Snake's moves, so something like this should be at least changed to be more of a normal, fair move. What I mean by this is make it have SOME end lag so the insane power it has behind it can at least be punished so G&W knows not to abuse it. Right now, he can consistently abuse it against some of the lower tiers without any fear of retaliation whatsoever. If you think that qualifies as "balanced", then something is seriously wrong with that.
G&W's Smashes are good. Not overpowered.

They all have relatively short range for their startup, but I think that they are overall balanced moves. They are difficult to land, and difficult to punish. In a way, it adds depth to G&W, adding a bit to his control game.

G&W's Smashes are about as good as if not slightly worse than Snake's current U-tilt.

The reason why I think certain characters suck is because they may still have a fundamental problem with very few options that can be applied to cover it. Ness for example is just a little too laggy, and doesn't have enough safe setups to compensate for his low range. Lucas has similar problems with not having enough stuff that is super low lag or safe setups and having fairly low range in general too. Ganondorf has nothing that's safe on shieldcampers (and lacks a really fast out of shield option or shield pressure tool), and neither does Ike (although his Jab goes a way to compensate). Fox can sorta laser camp, but also suffers from having very few good options on shieldcampers. Bowser has a great shieldcamp game, but the other way around, he fundamentally has a lot of trouble with people who take him defensively, and his horrible recovery is very crippling still. Sonic has very few safe or reliable setups into KO moves or gimps (and even with the buff on Up-B, it's not a particularly easy move to land).

Those characters I believe are among the ones that will be worst off on the tier list, not because they don't stand a chance, but because I feel that they have trouble addressing some specific issue that other characters have some way of coping with.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Good games JOE!. I thought that was pretty good for WiFi (though being lag killed during PKT was... not fun), and at least from my end, I thought the gameplay went pretty well!

Anyway, about Mr. Game & Watch, I'm curious which low tier characters these are that he's able to abuse his smashes so much against. Remember that G&W's moves don't really lead into each other at all other than the vague sense he likes to keep the enemy above him... That means that, while his moves are amazing, he needs to land almost all of them "cold". When you think about that, his incredible power seems to make more sense, though he's not quite as strong as the really strong guys anyway (DK, Ike, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.). He's a more normal power character with amazing range who pays for it in other ways.
 

BG3

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Good games JOE!. I thought that was pretty good for WiFi (though being lag killed during PKT was... not fun), and at least from my end, I thought the gameplay went pretty well!
If I may ask, what characters were you guys using?
 

JOE!

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Lag sux :p.

Also, what was with hanenbow showing up?

Ok, now onto stuffs:

Hyrule is a definate CP for Olimar.

CF vs G&W is 40:60 G&W...falcon seems to be under pressure the whole match, either that or lag sux

CF vs ROB *may* be CF advantage. He is rather easy to combo/hit

Same with CF vs Lucas, only that CF just has better options now.

Pokemon trainer is much better.

Samus either puts some crazy pressure on yoshi, or lag sux (or i messed up alot going beneath halberd :p)

DK's throws = surprise owies

Jiggs vs Yoshi may be 50/50 now. Jiggs is hard for yoshi to combo, and has some nice priorety, but Yoshi seems to have an easier time killing when he gets into a groove.

Pictochat sux for yoshi still, but Mk is much less annoying

Wolf > Marth

ganon's wiz kick rox

anything you notice, AA?

EDIT:
If I may ask, what characters were you guys using?
:falcon: , :jigglypuff: , :link2: , :ganondorf: , :yoshi: , :pt: , :wolf: , :marth: , :dedede: , :metaknight: , :gw: , :rob: , :olimar: , :lucas: , :dk2: , :popo:

anyone I forget AA?
 

Mit

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I think it's very, very difficult to state any of that as reliable from Wifi matches :p

Especially stuff for Falcon, a character very dependent on quick reflexes and responses to your opponent's movements. Similarly, ROBs performance against Falcon also depends on quick responses. His spacing game using his tilts and whatnot should be very dangerous to Falcon, not to mention his two projectiles.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I'd be hesitant to judge too much about matchups given that we never played the same matchup twice, and it was on WiFi with some lag. Also, I'm radically better with G&W than with the entire rest of the cast so just keep that in mind.

The WiFi Training Room code only works in versus mode. In training mode and WiFi, it is still Hanenbow. There's not much I can do about that.

Um...

Sonic is really annoying as Luigi since your traction makes Sonic's everything safe on block so Sonic can just kinda bully you, and even Sonic's low priority spins are enough to plow through Fireballs. On the other hand, Luigi Cyclone seems uniquely effective against Sonic.

Yoshi's fair is seriously a good move that is reasonable to land; especially when I was DK, you kept nailing me with it. Speaking of DK, I was really sad that I failed at Giant Punch games...

King Dedede cannot spike through the clouds on Skyworld with dthrow. That's good to know. Skyworld is still a hilarious stage. I mean this in a good way, but I don't think most people would agree with that positive impression of a hilarious stage.

Yeah, R.O.B. is one of those characters who kinda takes a beating but then doesn't die, and I'm not sure if Green Greens was helping or hurting me there. I really thought I was going to make a comeback with that last stock, but you don't really survive knee sweetspot at 180%.

Wolf is unnaturally good on WiFi. I try to avoid him and Ike when I'm playing with people I want to like the game since WiFi distorts those two characters really badly. The main thing I noticed in that match was the nifty trick on Mario Circuit with Marth; Dolphin Slash below the middle platform lands on it, making it substantially safer.

Ganondorf is too much fun, seriously. Even against Link's terrifying projectile game, I felt as though I was still imposing a big threat at all times. I also felt pretty pro avoiding all of those arrows off-stage.

Ice Climbers seem to have a bit of a zoning game that's probably underdeveloped in standard Brawl due to how good cgs are. Their hammers are disjointed, and they have two decent projectiles. The increased smash power makes Popo alone way less helpless. Nana is still a moron and decided to make us lose when I'd been winning for most of the game.

Anyway, I'll try to remember all of our games to answer a question, but there were a lot.

AA vs JOE!

G&W vs Captain Falcon on Final Destination (G&W wins)
Luigi vs Sonic on Battlefield (Sonic wins)
Ganon vs Link on Lylat Cruise (Ganon wins)
ICs vs Pokemon Trainer on Final Destination? (Pokemon Trainer wins)
Jigglypuff vs Yoshi on Luigi's Mansion (Yoshi wins)
Meta Knight vs Yoshi on PictoChat (Meta Knight wins)
DK vs Yoshi on Delfino Plaza (Yoshi wins)
Samus vs Yoshi on Halberd (Samus wins)
R.O.B. vs Captain Falcon on Green Greens (Captain Falcon wins)
Olimar vs Captain Falcon on Temple (Olimar wins)
Lucas vs Captain Falcon on Pokemon Stadium 1 (Captain Falcon wins)
Marth vs Wolf on Mario Circuit (Wolf wins)
King Dedede vs Pokemon Trainer on Skyworld (Pokemon Trainer wins)

My record was generally poor (5-8), but I was using a lot more characters so it's okay. Most of the games were close anyway.
 

A2ZOMG

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Speaking of ROB, I'm pretty convinced he's top 10 material. Probably not top 5, but he's probably going to make a comeback in this game due to harder matchups getting significantly easier.

D-throw -> u-tilt helps ROB quite a lot. That U-tilt from a grab really adds up in terms of damage and the stale moves counter. D-throw in general is better and now easily sets up into U-air which is GREAT for ROB if he can really discourage his opponent from air dodging (D-throw regrabbing is fun stuff too). The fact ROB's U-throw can KO at like 160% very reliably is also a godsend, almost as much of an improvement as the buff on Mario's B-throw.
 

JOE!

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btw, that was an epic finish with Ganon vs Link :p

and you werent winning most of the game, the last stock my charizard had a decent % lead, then Firebreath gimped you :p

i was honsetly surprised how close we were...there were what? only 3 matches where one of us 2stocked?

Samus vs yoshi....

Wolf vs Marth

CF vs olimar


and im not sure about cf vs lucas
 

BG3

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Sorry if I'm sounding like a troll, but shouldn't you guys have removed Stale Move Negation from the beginning? It caused many annoying problems, such as Fox's infamous u-tilt chain on heavyweights, as well as certain characters having very few kill moves become stale move negated and pretty much screwed. Also, besides Fox, a lot of characters(preferably lightweights) have annoying u-tilt chains on heavyweights. I'm just addressing this because it wasn't listed as a core mechanic change, and I really believe it should take the approach Brawl+ did with it by making it less harsher.
 

Stealth Raptor

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one thing about stale moves is that it makes you think about using one of your kill moves before you use it over and over, and it does add a new depth to the game when it comes to move selection. granted some chars have some pretty **** combos, but im pretty sure you can SDI that utilt within a few utilts, forcing you out of range or making the fox grab you.
 

Thinkaman

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Sorry if I'm sounding like a troll, but shouldn't you guys have removed Stale Move Negation from the beginning? It caused many annoying problems, such as Fox's infamous u-tilt chain on heavyweights, as well as certain characters having very few kill moves become stale move negated and pretty much screwed. Also, besides Fox, a lot of characters(preferably lightweights) have annoying u-tilt chains on heavyweights. I'm just addressing this because it wasn't listed as a core mechanic change, and I really believe it should take the approach Brawl+ did with it by making it less harsher.
Let's assume for a second that adding resource management to a fighting game is brilliant and adds significant depth to the point where removing it would represent a new and unprecedented level of stupidity for humanity.

So no.
 

SaltyKracka

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Let's assume for a second that adding resource management to a fighting game is brilliant and adds significant depth to the point where removing it would represent a new and unprecedented level of stupidity for humanity.

So no.
On the other hand, let's assume that adding resource management to a fighting game where its inclusion hampers some characters more than others leads to a lack in that character's metagame means a fall in the tier list, and as such its removal would be a work of genius.
 

Thinkaman

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On the other hand, let's assume that adding resource management to a fighting game where its inclusion hampers some characters more than others leads to a lack in that character's metagame means a fall in the tier list, and as such its removal would be a work of genius.
Because removing things that affect one character more than others is a stroke of brilliance.

Oh wait, that's everything.

Alternatively, we could balance the matchups under the assumption that stale moves exists. Based on Jigglypuff's pummel buff, you would almost be tempted to think we did that all along.
 

SaltyKracka

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Because removing things that affect one character more than others is a stroke of brilliance.

Oh wait, that's everything.

Alternatively, we could balance the matchups under the assumption that stale moves exists. Based on Jigglypuff's pummel buff, you would almost be tempted to think we did that all along.
Do note that I was not actually engaging in your little debate as much as I was making fun of your basic fallacy. With the right assumption, one can prove just about anything. As such, the rather insipid phrase "Let us assume" when dealing with anything other than fact, is something that I view worthy of sport.
 

Thinkaman

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Let us assume that I was being intentionally pretentious, but really only posting this to be ironic.

Mmm... irony!
 

A2ZOMG

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Sorry if I'm sounding like a troll, but shouldn't you guys have removed Stale Move Negation from the beginning? It caused many annoying problems, such as Fox's infamous u-tilt chain on heavyweights, as well as certain characters having very few kill moves become stale move negated and pretty much screwed. Also, besides Fox, a lot of characters(preferably lightweights) have annoying u-tilt chains on heavyweights. I'm just addressing this because it wasn't listed as a core mechanic change, and I really believe it should take the approach Brawl+ did with it by making it less harsher.
Fox isn't very good at all. His U-tilt chain should be treated as a situational saving grace when he manages to get past someone's shield.

Mario and Luigi's U-tilt chains for example only go up to like 35% at most, and they can only break 50% by landing two U-airs, which can be air dodged on reaction by the time U-tilt gets whatever character up to that percent.

Mario in particular can't U-tilt at 0% reliably since it usually gets blocked.

Honestly U-tilt chains are fine, and it's only fair that at low percents there are a few combos.
 

ぱみゅ

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also, only changes are those that affects competitiveness and hard machups. Utilt chains should had to be checked in order to create BBrawl
 

DSP

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Just a question for the creators of this:
Is a PAL non-HBC version in the works or are you guys finished working on this? Just so we know if we need to add HBC or if we can wait for the non-HBC release. Thanks in advance.
 

Thinkaman

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I'd like to dump some impressions of matches I played earlier. It was against a Sonic main (offline), who played almost strictly Sonic tonight.

First, Ness. I had no problems against Sonic as Ness. I don't know if I ever got spring gimped, ever. Avoiding the spring with my double jump or just recovering high was trivial, and Sonic's inability to cope with fair kept him from really taking advantage of this. Ness advantage imo. 55-45?

Second, Lucas. My Lucas is no where near as good as my Ness, but in the several Lucas/Sonic matches we played I absolutely dominated. I snuck a bunch of PK fires in, much more than in most matchups. Sonic's attempts to d-throw me were met with a tech, d-tilt, jab for 18% a pop. Actually, this happened after every attack I spot-dodged too. Anytime I have the chance to punish sonic, I pull out Lucas's dair combo and bring home the bacon. After he started power shielding my f-smashes, I'd grab him at the end of it instead, still doing over 40% total! I just had this overall feeling that I was doing double the damage Sonic was doing to me.

Third, Ganon. Ganon continued to impress. Matches will suddenly veer a stock either direction at a moment's notice. I might say the Sonic matchup is 55-45 in Ganon's favor. Sonic really needs the spring here.

Fourth, Falcon. Probably even. Matchup is strange to play. Spring very effective.

Fifth, Luigi. Only played a few with him, but Sonic dealt with him well. I had a ton of trouble landing up-bs and had to rely on traditional KOs. Probably around 55-45 Sonic advantage.

Sixth, Peach. My Peach is pretty bad, so I probably shouldn't make any judgement. Still did okay.

Seventh, Bowser. I won all the matches with Bowser I think... but I felt my opponent just wasn't used to him. When he was on his game, he wasn't doing that bad. I think I got most my kills with bair and f-tilt. Didn't get much out of d-throw. 55-45 Sonic?

Eighth, Yoshi. I did well with Yoshi. I actively tried to trade hits, which let to Sonic always having more damage. I felt this was one of the easier matchups, but would hesitate to call it 60-40.

Ninth, Wario. My opponent said he suspected Wario was now Sonic's worst matchup, but then I played him and his Sonic did really good against me. Granted my Wario is sub-par (I can NEVER land farts...) but it was still obvious that the changes made a difference and this wasn't bad for Sonic. I'd want more testing, but I'd believe it if you told me it was even.

Tenth, Link. He was played some in random matchups. Nothing outside the ordinary.

Eleventh, Sheik/Zelda. My opponent had SLIGHT trouble playing solo Sheik. He did better than he did with vSheik, and the change was noticeable, but it still seemed slightly short compared to say his Sonic. He tried switching to Zelda at poor times that let me get KOs. Same story with Zelda. When I played Sheik/Zelda, Solo Sheik did okay, nothing special, and Solo Zelda struggled a bit but got low-% KOs often enough to pretty much make up for any perceived shortcomings. Sheik+Zelda continued to be pretty solid, definitely a force to reckon with. I find I don't get many u-tilts as Solo Zelda, but after transforming from Sheik I get them all the time...

Uh, let's see... I played some Toon Link for a bit, he did okay. The f-smash buff mattered in the matches, and scored at least one KO at a lower % than he normally would have.

I played an ICs match or two towards the end. One of the stronger characters against Sonic, who really struggled with both Blizzard and the difference in damage scale. Not sure what to make of the matchup.

A bit of Kirby, nothing memorable.

We both played a good amount of Meta Knight. I think all matches involving him came down to the last stock, and Meta Knight won about half of them. I actually won one thanks to his down-b buff, when I was desperately trying to sneak in a kill.

I played a ton of DDD at the beginning. I had a lot of success with d-throw chases. Interesting matchup against Falco.

My opponent played several matches as Fox. Pretty much what you'd expect, nothing really took me by storm.

We both played several as Falco. We agreed that Falco is still really good. Really good. I mused that it is possible that Falco could actually be better now than he was before. My opponent thought this is true. Falco won most of his matches, but none of the matchups seemed in his favor by any large degree.

I played a Wolf match or two. Can't remember against who...

My opponent played a few matches as Pikachu. Pika did fine in these, seemed evenish matchups.

I played a handful as PT against Sonic and Falco. One of the stronger characters. I managed to pull off a lot of bullet seeds? I recall winning almost all the PT matches.

I played only one as Jigglypuff, against Sonic. Hard to comment much.

There was one Marth match, against MK. I think Marth barely won, it was really close either way.

G&W... G&W was really, really hard for Sonic. I consistently 2-stocked him with low %s. I don't think he knew the matchup well though, since I was landing more aerials than I should have. Still a matchup to keep some eyes on.

I played several Snake matches. He still does well, but I have to resort to a lot more C4 kills. Sometimes I keep f-tilt fresh and kill with it! Not sure what to say about his matchups... I anticipate a lot of 55:45 Snake's advantage matchups.

Just a question for the creators of this:
Is a PAL non-HBC version in the works or are you guys finished working on this? Just so we know if we need to add HBC or if we can wait for the non-HBC release. Thanks in advance.
Someone is working on it I heard, but I'd suggest going ahead and installing HBC if you can. It's not much trouble.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I'm going to comment that there is no Meta Knight down-B buff. Thinkaman wrote that right before falling asleep so he probably wasn't thinking when he said that.

I'd also like to point out that Falco is almost never used in our region and isn't generally rated as highly as he is in other regions. So a statement like "I mused that it is possible that Falco could actually be better now than he was before" doesn't mean as much as you might think.
 

LightSpineSonic

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My wii is pal version and stuff so uhm how do i add balanced brawl on my wii i'm confused D:
Help would be wanted :)

I have homebrew but its just the instructions how to get Balanced brawl on my wii are not so clear D:

Could someone please explain it better ?

I read this:
If your computer does not have an SD card port, that could make things difficult. You need to download the .zip on the computer and extract it to the SD card. I think dedicated SD card readers are expensive too; here is my suggestion.

Find a friend with a computer with an SD card port on his computer and use his computer for this; it shouldn't be hard since SD card ports on computers are pretty common. Download the .zip linked to in the first post, and then extract the contents of the folder "Balanced Brawl" to your SD card that is in said port (right click on the .zip, and the computer should have some program available that will make this really easy). It's basically the same as writing files to a disc, and as long as you directly extract the contents of that folder to your SD card, everything should be arranged correctly to work. If you want to check what's on the SD card to see if things are right, there should be four items in the root of the SD card (which is the lowest level of the SD card; on my computer, SD cards are handled as drive F so I see the root as F:\). They are:

Two folders. One is named "private" and one is named "codes".
A text file called "gameconfig.txt"
A mysterious file called "boot.elf"

Like I said, if you use the .zip, it should put this all in order for you so you won't have to really deal with how it works so much. I'm just listing this so you can check if you got things right.

Of course, you need to have an SD card that works with Brawl. In general, SD cards that work with Brawl need to be 2 GB or smaller, but you can test if yours works easily by trying to save a snapshot to it. If Brawl lets you, it's a good SD card.

Either way, once you have everything on the SD card, just go to your Wii, boot up Brawl, delete all custom stages, back out of the stage builder, put in the SD card, enter the stage builder, and look at the stages on the SD card. If you delete all custom stages beforehand, you can just have the SD card in the whole time, but just be aware that you need to have all custom stages gone before the stage builder "sees" the SD card or things will not work right. This should cause exciting stuff to happen on the screen, but you don't need to actually read or understand anything. Just pick the first answer and agree to everything, and it will quickly work its way to Brawl rebooting. At that point, I suggest removing the SD card (not technically required since we added the no custom stage code to the downloads), and Balanced Brawl should be loaded. If you want to do a quick test to see if it's working, start a match in versus mode and pick Hanenbow. If you end up on the WiFi Training Room, it's Balanced Brawl.

Hopefully this is clear enough. It's easier to help people if they are getting stuck at one particular place instead of generally confused; that way, we can figure out exactly where you are having an issue in the process.
So actually i just have to get the first file extract on the sd card then put it on my wiI
but whats with the BBrawl__FL09_Final_PAL file do i need to put it on my sd card as well?
 

smashkng

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Is there be a choice of independent Pokémon with infinite stamina like in Brawl+? Ok now I think Ganon's recovery has been buffed. It's dangerous to try to edge guard him, up b grab can send downwards to gimp and uppercut *****. His reward for being so slow is much better, the main need is to outpower all other characters in the game, including the character with similar attack speed: Ike.
 

PKNintendo

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The reason why I think certain characters suck is because they may still have a fundamental problem with very few options that can be applied to cover it. Ness for example is just a little too laggy, and doesn't have enough safe setups to compensate for his low range. Lucas has similar problems with not having enough stuff that is super low lag or safe setups and having fairly low range in general too.
Again, that is wrong. Ness isn't laggy in main aerials which you fail to address.
I just don't like being lectured by someone who hasn't played as said character and just theorycrafts.

Let's see.
Ness Fair,Nair,Uair and Bair come out relatively fast. There's nothing *laggy* about said moves. Ness safest option is a retreating fair, which is the best ranged ranged aerial he owns.

You also were vague about Lucas. More info please.
 

Scipion121212

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LightSpineSonic: I PMed you, I do not know how strict rules about hacking wii are on these forums =)
 

codfish92

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Is there be a choice of independent Pokémon with infinite stamina like in Brawl+? Ok now I think Ganon's recovery has been buffed. It's dangerous to try to edge guard him, up b grab can send downwards to gimp and uppercut *****. His reward for being so slow is much better, the main need is to outpower all other characters in the game, including the character with similar attack speed: Ike.
@ the independent pokemon thing

no there isn't. BBrawl went around the bases that PT was supposed to be a team. So no independents.

however, a code to chose to swap backwards or forwards would be nice, not necessarily a shield to swap or a hold shield to not swap code, but a code that advances you forward if you don't hold shield, and advances you backwards if you do hold shield.
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
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First, Ness. I had no problems against Sonic as Ness. I don't know if I ever got spring gimped, ever. Avoiding the spring with my double jump or just recovering high was trivial, and Sonic's inability to cope with fair kept him from really taking advantage of this. Ness advantage imo. 55-45?

Second, Lucas. My Lucas is no where near as good as my Ness, but in the several Lucas/Sonic matches we played I absolutely dominated. I snuck a bunch of PK fires in, much more than in most matchups. Sonic's attempts to d-throw me were met with a tech, d-tilt, jab for 18% a pop. Actually, this happened after every attack I spot-dodged too. Anytime I have the chance to punish sonic, I pull out Lucas's dair combo and bring home the bacon. After he started power shielding my f-smashes, I'd grab him at the end of it instead, still doing over 40% total! I just had this overall feeling that I was doing double the damage Sonic was doing to me.
Guess I went overboard on the spring thing.
Ness vs Sonic matchup was always even, leaning towards Sonic because he had some grab releases on him. Now that they are removed, I can see it around even or probably Ness. IDK.

Kudos on your Lucas matches. You played him how he was supposed to be played which was good.
 

MorpheusVGX

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Let's assume for a second that adding resource management to a fighting game is brilliant and adds significant depth to the point where removing it would represent a new and unprecedented level of stupidity for humanity.

So no.
I agree with every word. Stale move negation is very interesting and deep. It gives a reason to use "not so good" moves. It also encourages players to fight without spamming one or two strong and safe moves, which is boring and stupid.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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I agree with every word. Stale move negation is very interesting and deep. It gives a reason to use "not so good" moves. It also encourages players to fight without spamming one or two strong and safe moves, which is boring and stupid.
At first glance it adds "depth", but at a second glance all it does is hamper some characters here and there. A good player will always vary their moves based on the situation at hand. A bad player will spam or use the same 'good' move over and over again. I argue that Stale Moves doesn't really add anything to the game other than it's a mechanic that forces the player to use their bad moves. It's not the right way to go about making someone use their other moves. I'm not saying at all to remove Stale Moves, toning it down to 75% would be quite lovely enough as is (even when that was tested in Brawl+'s early stages, 75% still felt like it was still at 100%).

Sonic for example is a character that relies on hit and run. He's got a player at a good killing % for Fsmash, it's fresh. He hits them, the player DIs and they live. Is it bad for Sonic to try Fsmash again? No because it's his best reliable kill move. But now he's forced to try and use another move so Fsmash doesn't stale terribly. Bair doesn't kill them, Dsmash is impossible to hit them with (maybe a good spot dodge punisher) and what does Sonic have left after that? A Uair off the top? Maybe. This is only one situation and only one character but, I assure you it can happen with any character and it's just bad design. In a game where you're supposed to knock someone into the blast zone with a KO move and when you use it once and it doesn't KO because the player DI'd it, Sonic should be able to kill that player with Fsmash the second time he uses it because they're at a higher percent. But, no, stale moves changes this thought process and makes working for the kill that much harder for this character. Is it simply fair? Not at all. Sonic isn't the only one with this problem though.

I'm not saying to remove Stale Moves. I'm not even saying to tone it down. But, saying it's actually good design? You're out of your mind when you say that. It's bad design because it forces the player to use a bad move in a situation where it doesn't even call for it yet. Plus, the Stale Moves system benefits characters with good Utilts (Fox, Mario, Pikachu, and Lucario all come to mind) where they chain Utilts together at least 3-4 times for a lot of %. Since the move stales, it keeps you in longer which is the exact opposite of what Stale Moves should be doing in this situation, it should stop this spam that Sakurai wanted to be gone (the spamming of a singular move) yet, Fox's Utilt can be spammed for a lot of % because of stale moves...

It's bad design, not depth, a good player will vary their move set regardless of this abysmal mechanic. I know I do, heck, when I'm playing I don't even think about Stale Moves unless a move didn't KO them or send them far enough.
 

BG3

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(Fox, Mario, Pikachu, and Lucario all come to mind) where they chain Utilts together at least 3-4 times for a lot of %. Since the move stales, it keeps you in longer which is the exact opposite of what Stale Moves should be doing in this situation, it should stop this spam that Sakurai wanted to be gone (the spamming of a singular move) yet, Fox's Utilt can be spammed for a lot of % because of stale moves...

This is exactly what I was trying to say. Also, WTF at Thinkaman's response?! Did that have anything to do with the current discussion? But anyways, getting 35% of off a stupid u-tilt chain on a heavyweight is something that should be changed. What Sakurai didn't want to happen, happened exactly with his system trying to prevent it. Through his companies lack of playtesting, I doubt if they even noticed this.

I also wasn't suggesting to remove stale moves, because the idea behind it is good. Don't spam a move too much or else it will lose its value. However, what it was set to was simply too harsh, and it created more problems than it fixed. Spamming a move is still potent, because since a weak attack lost its value, it will continously become weaker, and the opponent stays in this dumb one move chain for a damage outcome of 35%. How exactly does this add depth? It's true that you shouldn't just use your strong moves over and over again to finish off someone's stock, that would be stupid. However, certain characters have very few potent kill moves, and since their moveset is just so terribly designed, they're forced to use their only decent option of a kill move, which then forces them to use the other half of their terrible moveset.

Really, if you're really this against changing the value of stale moves, then try to make each move at least have a use. Because some moves as I mentioned before, are still terrible to even throw out in a match. I'm looking at you Ganon's Fair.
 

Stealth Raptor

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most utilt chains you can SDI out of. the only simple move chain that i have ever seen that you cant sdi out of readily was sheiks ftilt. trust me the utilt chains arent as potent as they seem (i main pikachu and second lucario after all)
 

MorpheusVGX

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I see your point. But in the case of tilts, damage is also increasing so the knockback should at least, stay the same be too much and the victim is set free. In BBrawl those chains are supposed to be limited up to certain extent. And characters were balanced considering those benefits they usually enjoy. The case of Sonic if a very particular one I think. And because of him, it is not a good a idea to change the game for everyone. Sonic received a powerful gimp tool and other buffs to compensate. If that is not enough then he will be balanced in the future, right? The same logic applies to other character with lack of KO moves. As an example, Yoshi received enough knockback on Dsmash for it to be a good KO move, because he needed that to be balanced.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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I was just saying in the case of Brawl (not BBRawl) Sonic has a horrible time killing with Stale Moves. I don't know how the situation changes but, it might not change much if it at all in BBrawl for Sonic with the situation I gave. It's especially difficult for Sonic to kill someone like Snake with Fsmash, use it once at 140% and he still lives... I mean look at Ally vs. ADHD at SNES Snake vs. Diddy, the guy lived at 260% BECAUSE of stale moves (and pretty amazing DI but, still, you can't help but factor the stale moves into it). Isn't that ridiculous? I think so.
 

BG3

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Nvm. I'll just see how big or small this problem might be in the future with this game.
 

blakinola

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I played against my friend's Sonic and that spring is too good. ***** DK if it hits him. But it's easily cancelled by a lot of aerials. It definitely forces some chars to change up their approaches back to the stage.

Ganon got really good. He excels against big characters. Has trouble getting inside.
PK boys are fun to play again. I tried to cargo-release Lucas with DK and was unsuccessful on all accounts.

Mario is a beast and his spacing game has improved. I have to be wary when I'm playing DK.

If Link stays on the ground, he's a force. I wish his recovery wasn't still garbage.

That's all I've got so far.
 
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