Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[deepseadiva]

I came sooo close to actually getting to play this at a smashfest yesterday. After grabbing an SD card and flying to the computer, lo and behold, I only have a 512MB card, and I need a 2GB.

FML

 

[PKNintendo]

I came sooo close to actually getting to play this at a smashfest yesterday. After grabbing an SD card and flying to the computer, lo and behold, I only have a 512MB card, and I need a 2GB.

FML

Yikes that sucks.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Anyone feel like playing some BBrawl wifi right about now? FC is 3480-4200-6837

I'm dying to play actual people!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pretty sure I'm the only Ness main here lol. Your feeding me horse**** here.
Starting with Fair here:
Given the range, speed, and priority of Fair, it actually shuts down very many approaches.

Nair is a quick GTFO move, and his bair is decent killer. Pretty decent out of shield.
His approach is not bad either.

Gimmicky KO moves?
He has his backthrow, Uair, Bair and Dair spike.

Geez man, you are SO full of it. You don't even play AS or against the character reliably enough to state things that are remotely true.

I've played against clinton quite a bit. I know this matchup.

Your boards have terrible frame data, so ultimately its your own board's fault having bull****.

F-air is only good on retreat or against terrible characters with few gtfo moves. It's not a bad attack, but it's not nearly excellent enough to make Ness a remarkable character.

N-air is alright, but like any other N-air is not good on shields.

B-air is ok out of shield minus the fact it has pretty poor range, and faster characters can sometimes fastfall a quick aerial and Jab before it comes out.

Yeah, Ness's approach isn't horrible like Link or Ganondorf's, but at the same time he doesn't have anything that stands out to make his approach good. Mario and Luigi for example have a D-air, which has ZERO ending lag and autocancels into another attack before they hit the ground after a short hop. Some characters might not be good at approaching, but have superior camping to Ness which denecessitates the needs to approach, while Ness doesn't have good camping at all.

B-throw is good, and his only really good way of getting KOs. U-air has good knockback, but is telegraphed and has significant commitment. B-air like I pointed out has mediocre range. D-air is nearly as telegraphed as U-air and only good on bad recoveries.

Basically the things that make Ness stand out are all situational gimmicky setups, and while his moveset isn't necessarily terrible, it rarely ever manages to do anything that is consistently excellent minus getting KOs with B-throw.

Basically compared to other characters in this game, Ness isn't nearly as good. He doesn't have super safe pressure tactics for approaching or KOing, and he doesn't have much that stands out in the way of camping.

Lucas like Ness doesn't really have any really super safe pressure tactics for approaching or KOing, and his camping isn't very remarkable, although it did get better with his buffed spotdodge. Fundamentally though, the reason why these two characters are worse off on the tier list is for not having anything really really safe that stands out.

The other characters who I think are on the bottom of the BBrawl tier list are Ganondorf, Bowser, Fox, Ike, and Sonic.

Ganondorf and Bowser still suck at doing stuff to shieldcamping opponents, and they are still easily gimped.

Fox is the same character from vBrawl, and still has all the same pressing problems minus getting infinited. He can sorta laser camp, and he's stupidly good at getting KOs when the opportunity presents itself, but like Bowser and Ike is pretty fail on shields.

Ike no longer gets gimped, and he now has a new crossup option, but he still gets owned by shieldcamping for the most part.

Sonic got some useful damage buffs on key moves, which is great. However he is basically the same character that lacks any reliable way to score KOs safely, and even with the spring buff, it only affects a few specific matchups at most.

 

[NO-IDea]

Lol at Yoshi's survivability. Momentum cancel ftw! Bucket brake my ***.

Out of curiosity though, will Mario always be the standard for DI testing now? Especially since some of his smashes have been buffed? lol

And next week, I'll challenge people on lag-fi with my Samus. I'm excited XD.

(I left my wii at home instead of bringing it and I deeply regret it right now.)

 

[MysticKenji]

... Mario and Luigi for example have a D-air, which has ZERO ending lag ...

Since when do 12 and 14 equal zero?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Out of curiosity though, will Mario always be the standard for DI testing now? Especially since some of his smashes have been buffed? lol

The angle on Mario's stuff is pretty "standard" so to speak, which is probably the most important factor for testing this kind of stuff.

His F-smash has the same knockback by the way, and actually is still his strongest KO move.

Since when do 12 and 14 equal zero?

Try punishing that **** out of shield. It might as well be considered zero ending lag. Anything that has less than 20 frames of ending lag is really hard to punish in this game, since 20-25 is basically the standard ballpark for most attacks. 30 or more lag frames is absolutely terrible on the other hand.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Try punishing that **** out of shield. It might as well be considered zero ending lag. Anything that has less than 20 frames of ending lag is really hard to punish in this game, since 20-25 is basically the standard ballpark for most attacks. 30 or more lag frames is absolutely terrible on the other hand.

Although true, any frames at all shouldn't be considered zero, for technical purposes.

 

[daisho]

I just did some DI testing. Lots of numbers:



Conclusion:
Yoshi is now the best character in the game for surviving long horizontal hits. Yoshi may wish to maximize this advantage by picking large stages. This should affirm Norfair as a great Yoshi stage.

I honestly can't see any reason why Yoshi would survive longer than DK... They both have a momentum cancel and DK is heavier.

I came sooo close to actually getting to play this at a smashfest yesterday. After grabbing an SD card and flying to the computer, lo and behold, I only have a 512MB card, and I need a 2GB.

FML

I don't understand... I use a 256mb card and it works fine.


Also, I played some games online and I have some thoughts.

Bowser didn't feel too buffed, IDK if its because Im not so good with him (which i'm not) but the D throw doesnt really have much in the way of following up... once in a while I can get an f tilt.

Maybe you should take a couple of buffs away and buff one of his attacks more? Idk i need to get better before I can actually give real advice.

Samus was really comfortable. Her throws can actually kill and I was able to mindgame a D throw fair or D throw up b depending on if he airdodged.

Missles were just better to spam and she had kill potential.

I love those buffs.

I also LOVED mario. Mario will be at least a second if not my co main along with DK. His up smash is like fox broken now, killing at similar percents and whatnot. Since he has so many kill moves I honestly don't have to worry about freshness. I feel he has similar KO potential to DK just a little weaker but faster and less laggy. Mario definitely would be broken if his recovery was good but its pretty awful. Though im not sure which there has to be some character that will have worse than a 60:40 vs mario and maybe you will need to give them better gimping tools.

Lastly, I played on mario circuit... it is not suitable for tournament play. I love that stage and think its great, but a 40 % kill vs fox with a DK dash attack is just stupid. IIRC all the kills in that game were stupid, I may upload the vids a little later.

I saved like 5 or so replays but I don't think I should upload them since neither of us really knew the characters well so we both played poorly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's recovery is actually pretty good. With Cape stalling, fireballs to harass his opponent, an Up-B that is difficult to punish, a good edge game, and the removal of RCO lag, as long as he has good DI he's very difficult to punish offstage. His recovery is slightly better than the likes of Marth and Toon Link if you ask me.

Mario's main weakness is low range, but that can be solved with smart use of Cape, FLUDD, and his ridiculously long ranged F-smash. He also has good mixups on shield due to his low lag in general.

Bowser, one thing I discovered is that his new D-air completely ***** spotdodges. Just throwing it out there.

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey A, clinton isn the premier test for Ness. On mobile, but arent you overrating Mario?

He was always around Ness and Lucas level.

 

[daisho]

Mario's recovery is actually pretty good. With Cape stalling, fireballs to harass his opponent, an Up-B that is difficult to punish, a good edge game, and the removal of RCO lag, as long as he has good DI he's very difficult to punish offstage. His recovery is slightly better than the likes of Marth and Toon Link if you ask me.

Mario's main weakness is low range, but that can be solved with smart use of Cape, FLUDD, and his ridiculously long ranged F-smash. He also has good mixups on shield due to his low lag in general.

Bowser, one thing I discovered is that his new D-air completely ***** spotdodges. Just throwing it out there.

Id say better than marth and worse than toon link... still, hes no metaknight, hes gimpable by the right characters.

Yeah bowsers dair is really good... I did 20% one of the times I used it and I barely did any hits with it.

Also, about ness's bat being the strongest hitbox... what about ikes fully charged eruption.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't understand... I use a 256mb card and it works fine.

What...? But it says right here...

All you need is an SD Card (2 GB or smaller required), a Wii, and a copy of Brawl to play.

Small...er...? OH EEEEEEEEEFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

 

[Linkshot]

You should never being dying at 40% anywhere :/

You must have DI'd right into the blast zone.

Also, if you choose to fight at the sides, you are taking a huge risk.

EDIT
256MB will not hold bBrawl.

Also, the Wii won't read SD Cards over 2 GB

 

[Big O]

Want to have a few matches daisho? I feel like playing wifi again recently.

 

[daisho]

I did the killing, and DKs dash attack comes out quickly and now has a ridiculous angle that it hits at... Sure it was near the blastzone, but when cars come down the middle and you are both on the same side stuff like that will happen.

 

[PKNintendo]

A2 your way to reliant on frame data.

Ness pressuring game come from aerial strings.
Ness also has an oos mixup game due to how fast fair and nair are.

Marios weakness are also similar Ness. His only long range pressure game are the fireballs. Aside from that, he lacks range and get shut down quickly. His killers aside from R fsmash are easy to see. He uses the others mainly to smash oos.

Both Ness and Mario are remarkably similar. The only making Mari win out his fire balls and slightly better offstage game.

 

[deepseadiva]

256MB will not hold bBrawl.

What's the smallest it could be?

 

[daisho]

You should never being dying at 40% anywhere :/

You must have DI'd right into the blast zone.

Also, if you choose to fight at the sides, you are taking a huge risk.

EDIT
256MB will not hold bBrawl.

Also, the Wii won't read SD Cards over 2 GB

IDK whats up with your SD card but mine works fine with 256 mb

Want to have a few matches daisho? I feel like playing wifi again recently.

Yeah sure... give me 5 mins.

 

[PKNintendo]

Also calling Ness other options gimmicky is like calling Mario's flood gimicky.

For Ness, PK thunder is another offstage optionm while pkf is a mid range pressuring tool. Also pk flash can be used against predictable recoveries like Luigi, Ike, Mario [up b only] boozer and link.


When it comes to killing, Ness has solid option. Nothing gimmicky about it. Except the bat.

 

[Thinkaman]

What's the smallest it could be?

We are talking about files that could fit on a FLOPPY DISK 3 times over. If you find an SD card on the planet that this won't fit on, then I'll personally buy one and mail it to you, along with a million dollars.

On that note...

King Dedede's Options Out of D-throw

King Dedede's 13 frame advantage out of d-throw gives him 3 main options: Tech Chase Regrab, D-tilt, and D-smash. He can also occasionally get other smashes or a dash attack given specific opponent reactions, and can usually get a petty f-tilt if he wants, but those three options are most rewarding and easy to do.

Tech Chase Regrab

King Dedede can Tech Chase Regrab enemies out of his d-throw almost always. Luigi slides too far away, but otherwise any reaction but an away roll will be easy for DDD to grab. A few characters with long tech rolls can escape by DIing the throw away, rolling away, and buffering a spotdodge or jab. Here's how often you can regrab away rolls:

Always:
Mario
Peach
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Wario
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Toon Link
Samus
Zero suit Samus
Pit
R.O.B.
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Falcon
Pikachu
Charizard
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch
Sonic

Only if no DI:
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Lucas
Snake

Never:
Ike
Luigi

Keep in mind that except for slippery ol' Luigi, anyone is really easy to grab if there is any sort of edge or object that cuts a roll short. In other words, those 7 other characters that can escape need a long empty stage away from DDD to do so.

D-tilt

Immediately buffering a d-tilt can hit almost all characters in the game, and can hit about half of them even if they DI away from DDD!

Always:
Mario
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Wario
Link
Sheik
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Falcon
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Charizard
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Sonic

Only if no DI:
Peach
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Zelda
Toon Link
Samus
Pit
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Marth
Ike
Ness
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake

Never:
Luigi
Squirtle

A word of warning about DI: If the opponent DI's a tiny bit up instead of just directly away, they will bounce a tiny bit farther than usual. In rare situations that extra inch can help them avoid the d-tilt.

Conversely, if the stage inhibits the DI'd bounce in any way, additional characters can be guaranteed d-tilt'd. Meta Knight and Olimar are good examples.

King Dedede's "D-throw Spike"

Because King Dedede's d-throw throws enemies down into the stage in front of him, a DDD d-throw from the very edge will send opponents off to their doom diagonally. Although this is a very strong trick for DDD, it can be hard to setup and can be survived by every character.

DDD is only able to do this when throwing someone from the VERY edge of the stage. In other words, this can only practically happen when the opponent is rolling towards the edge (such as a tech roll after DDD's d-throw) and DDD dash grabs them. If you want DDD to never get the "spike" on you, avoiding it is easy: Just don't roll into the edge of the stage when DDD might be able to grab you.

This throw does not grow any stronger with damage, nor weaker with stale moves. It is a constant distance. Furthermore, every character in the game is capable of back onto the stage even if DDD tries to ledgehog. For many characters with poor recoveries, this requires good DI and quick reactions! DI *AWAY* from the stage to lose as little height as possible, then double jump ASAP. It can sometimes be tricky, but even Olimar can make it back on top of the stage from this weak "spike"!

Teching King Dedede's D-throw

Since King Dedede is d-throwing enemies into the stage, it's possible but very difficult to tech it. To be precise, there is a 2-frame window to tech the throw.

The good news for DDD is that it is BETTER for him when his throw is teched! He still gets a full 13-frame advantage, and now the enemy isn't even bouncing away from him any! DDD doesn't get a guaranteed d-smash, but he can do anything faster, including regrab.

If the opponent techs into a roll... That's even better! DDD enjoys a whopping 25-frame advantage while they slowly roll a short distance.

So while enemies with amazing timing might try to surprise or throw off DDD by teching his d-throw, this is in general a bad idea that DDD can easily punish on reaction.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2 your way to reliant on frame data.

And now you're going to try to say not knowing frame data makes you more credible? You're laughable.

Ness pressuring game come from aerial strings.

Several characters have better aerial strings due to having faster aerials that end sooner.

Ness also has an oos mixup game due to how fast fair and nair are.

Too bad neither of them is a kill move forever.

Marios weakness are also similar Ness. His only long range pressure game are the fireballs. Aside from that, he lacks range and get shut down quickly. His killers aside from R fsmash are easy to see. He uses the others mainly to smash oos.

Mario however is a lot faster than Ness and has better combos and shield pressure tools. Mario is and has always been waaaaaay better out of shield, and especially now is even better at scoring the kill move out of shield.

Both Ness and Mario are remarkably similar. The only making Mari win out his fire balls and slightly better offstage game.

Mario has a superior and safer camp game, MUCH better approach and shield pressure, and much more reliable KO moves and out of shield options in general. Mario pretty much outclasses Ness significantly. Yeah both have bad range, but Mario actually can be fast and safe on block, and he isn't super limited to just one KO move.

Also calling Ness other options gimmicky is like calling Mario's flood gimicky.

FLUDD is in fact a gimmick for the large part, but fortunately Mario doesn't have to rely on it to get anything done. That makes FLUDD an acceptable addition to Mario's moveset.

For Ness, PK thunder is another offstage optionm while pkf is a mid range pressuring tool. Also pk flash can be used against predictable recoveries like Luigi, Ike, Mario [up b only] boozer and link.

PK Thunder is telegraphed and easily outprioritized. PK Fire is also telegraphed and easily powershielded (except on wifi). PK Flash basically should never land except on shieldbreak since it never reaches lower than the level Ness initiates it from and the positions where it can be used are easily airdodged on reaction.

When it comes to killing, Ness has solid option. Nothing gimmicky about it. Except the bat.

Ness only has one really good KO option. B-throw. Nothing else he has is excellent by any means.

 

[NintenJoe]

When it comes to killing, Ness has solid option. Nothing gimmicky about it. Except the bat.

QFT

Ness really doesn't have a lot of trouble killing. I played the official release for the first time today and Ness seems to fair quite well. (No pun intended) Ness has Uair, Bair, Bthrow, and Dair as killing moves and they aren't hard to get off. PKT2 (where Ness is hit by the head) kills stupidly early, given that it's really hard to set up. The only bad problems Ness really had (vBrawl) were exploitable recovery, sub-par ground game, and terrible grab release issues. In bBrawl, Ness not having the grab release issues makes a huge difference. No longer having a Fsmash guaranteed after a grab from every character helps Ness tremendously. PK Fire, with it's improved hit mechanic also helps Ness' ground game. His recovery is still exploitable, but he really doesn't have a lot of issues in bBrawl.

 

[PKNintendo]

None of Marios oos aerials are killers either.

You relly are harping it on speed thing. Nearly all of ness aerials end sooner than Peach's. She is bad.

PKT is used on off stage opponents. Onstage its useless.

you still seem to be under the impression Ness is bad at killing. Uair, dair and bair are all good killers.


Also Ness aerial combo game is better than Marios.

You know whats laughable? Your biased behaviour. You overrate Mario far to much, and underrate alot of other characters.

 

[PKNintendo]

Lol at A2 thinking pk flash is onstage move. You edge guard with it.


Mario is better than Ness due to his superior defense game. Fire ball camp isnt THAT great, but its better than nothing.

You state that mario is fast, but Ness is also fast too.

Way better pressure game? He only has the fireball adv. Ness and Mario fight around the same speed. Play as the dam character before theorycrafting.



Mario has only 1 great kill option on the ground and none in the air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not that Ness actually has that many issues in BBrawl. It's just he doesn't really cut it enough in terms of hitbox size/speed to warrant being better than anyone else who improved in BBrawl.

When you compare Ness to all the guys who improved at the same time he did, everyone else also looks awesome except they usually have some form of super fast or safe mixup that Ness really doesn't have.

Ness is definitely better than he was in vBrawl, but other people improved significantly more and have their superior hitbox sizes/speeds to go with it, while Ness is still playing on unimpressive hitbox sizes/speeds to get his job done. That's why he's still terrible.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Weird info

Am I reading you wrong here or is this obscenely broken?

Also, @Ness guys: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8258695#post8258695

 

[deepseadiva]

We are talking about files that could fit on a FLOPPY DISK 3 times over. If you find an SD card on the planet that this won't fit on, then I'll personally buy one and mail it to you, along with a million dollars.

*facedesk*

Well... maybe next week when I get my Wii back.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

We are talking about files that could fit on a FLOPPY DISK 3 times over. If you find an SD card on the planet that this won't fit on, then I'll personally buy one and mail it to you, along with a million dollars.

Time to make my own SD card with 1 MB... lol

and to Budget Player Cadet_, don't quote big posts please.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Time to make my own SD card with 1 MB... lol

and to Budget Player Cadet_, don't quote big posts please.

Sorry...
But yeah.

 

[PKNintendo]

It's not that Ness actually has that many issues in BBrawl. It's just he doesn't really cut it enough in terms of hitbox size/speed to warrant being better than anyone else who improved in BBrawl.

When you compare Ness to all the guys who improved at the same time he did, everyone else also looks awesome except they usually have some form of super fast or safe mixup that Ness really doesn't have.

Ness is definitely better than he was in vBrawl, but other people improved significantly more and have their superior hitbox sizes/speeds to go with it, while Ness is still playing on unimpressive hitbox sizes/speeds to get his job done. That's why he's still terrible.

A2 your way to vague. Dont bs me with Ness falling behind. Low tier was dominated by him, mario and lucas. He was never terrible in a sense that he doesnt fall short of luas and mario. Mario buff only helped his killer and not his problems [similar to ness]

hes better, but not by much

 

[PKNintendo]

Also thinking fox is bad is anything short of ridiculous.

A2, you know your caracter, i'll give you that, but you theorycraft the rest of the cast without giving asecond thought.Stop being biased main and try to be more versatile. Till then, later.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox IS terrible. Most good players agree with this. He's lightweight, easily comboed in general due to his fall speed, and very poor at pressuring shields, and doesn't have a spectacular offstage game to make up for this. Fox only has one really redeeming quality and that's Up-smash.

Mario always had a decent movepool in terms of speed and ending lag, but his main problem aside from low range was everything taking too long to actually kill with besides F-smash. With four completely viable and powerful KO moves, that solves his biggest problem and makes him less predictable and a much bigger threat in general.

Ness's biggest problem was being a bit on the predictable side since most of his best damage output results from gimmicky setups and relatively committed moves. And that problem hasn't changed much at all. He's really only able to do more damage when his opponent screws up, and if his opponent doesn't screw up, he doesn't see much use of his improvements. Not getting grab released is nice, but the grab release infinite gets banned a lot.

 

[Ryusuta]

Edit: Whoops.

 

[Linkshot]

I use PKT1 to gimp if uAir fell short. Works marvelously. Guaranteed KO if you Bubble-Blast them.

 

[JOE!]

@boozer Dthrow:

ok, we've got Myself, Daisho, and even THINKAMAN saying you cannot get nearly any follow-up from it now...

Back in vBrawl the higher KB made people do the flop, and I regularly got Fortress, Fire or the occassional FSMASH out of it...now it seems only the occassional Ftilt can be gained from Dthrow...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, Bowser's D-throw kinda is hard to follow up with.

Aside from that I generally feel he still suffers from being unsafe on block and easy to gimp, so he's not very good in BBrawl.

Still, nothing like destroying a spotdodge with D-air.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thanks for the continued feedback everyone. Figuring out where all the matchups stand and how they are affected by the changes over the next few months will let us best evaluate what to do next, whether that be additional changes or tweaking/removing current ones.

Iteration is king!

 

[JOE!]

boozer is mid tier in vBrawl, i think he just needs some gaurenteed follow-up moves (like i used Dthrow for in vbrawl...) to make up for his newfound lack of grab release shenanigans.

Also, release->jab and/or Klaw still works

 

[Thinkaman]

Pretty please, anyone?

Balanced Brawl First Impressions Tier List
Tag: Thinkaman
vBrawl Range: vWario -> vLucario

Tier 1 (Between vWario and vFalco)
------------


Tier 2 (Between vFalco and vDiddy)
------------


Tier 3 (Between vDiddy and vDDD)
------------


Tier 4 (Between vDDD and vMarth)
------------


Tier 5 (Between vMarth and vG&W)
------------


Tier 6 (Between vG&W and vPikachu)
------------


Tier 7 (Between vPikachu and vICs)
------------


Tier 8 (Between v ICs and vROB)
------------


Tier 9 (Between vROB and vKirby)
------------


Tier 10 (Between vKirby and vLucario)
------------

Again, modify it however you want. (Make more or less tiers, whatever--do compare to vBrawl though.)