Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[A2ZOMG]

Again, that is wrong. Ness isn't laggy in main aerials which you fail to address.

It's not a question of being super laggy. It's actually having at least one thing that has really low ending lag that can be abused. Ness doesn't have anything that's super safe that is in the league of Mario's D-air, G&W's Smashes, ZSS's Forward B/D-smash, that kind of stuff except for D-tilt on shield, which is quite situational due to its low range. Otherwise only retreating F-air comes close to fitting that bill. What separates him from better characters is that several better characters actually have stuff that is super safe and gets results.

And more obviously when it comes to KO moves, he has nothing that is technically safe until he gets a grab or lands PK Fire at 120%. Ness is pretty darn limited at actually getting the KO against a wary opponent.

Lucas's playstyle is different, but his problems are also fundamentally the same, although addressed better with a superior spotdodge which fundamentally increases his ability to set up and get in peoples range.

And yeah Falco400, that's kinda why I'm pretty sure Sonic is worse off on the tier list in BBrawl. He probably needs another damage buff or a slight knockback increase, since the Spring gimp only really helps him in specific matchups.

I should really address Mario's Jab cancel game. It's literally on par with, if not better than Luigi's Jab cancel game due to how severely Mario can punish his opponent after Jabbing them. Keep in mind, Mario gets a +7 frame advantage on Mario when landing both Jab1 and Jab2 in sequence (while he gets +4 advantage from landing Jab1). This is very scary when you consider the raw KO power of Mario's D-smash and B-throw. If they're at a high percent, Jab canceling can really screw someone over. If they don't block, they can get killed by D-smash or even F-smash (which works really well if they attack). If they block, B-throw can kill them.

What's so great about Mario is how he isn't overly reliant on a single move to get KOs. His playstyle can be drastically different between players, and he would still have a good KO move leftover when it is time to get the KO. His Up-smash, D-smash, and B-throw all should be observed for the fact that they are all good out of shield moves.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ness is amazing, and his aerials are wicked safe, A2ZOMG. The only thing I can agree on is PKFire being really overrated.

The bat is a lot better now, but even in vBrawl it wasn't terrible, like you suggest.

As far as the whole Lucas v Ness thing goes in BBrawl, I don't know, honestly. Ness was clearly better even with him being more susceptible to grab release junk, and leagues better if they both didn't have issues with grab releases. With all of the other buffs they got besides removal of the grab release abuse, though, I don't know if it's obvious who is better at the moment. I would wager Ness, but the ground game improvements towards Lucas are nothing to take lightly!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A better player doesn't let themselves get their only KO move stale at bad times; it's not like Sonic is going to use forward smash unless you input a forward smash. You're right that the biggest thing stale moves punishes is using a kill move at too low of a percentage and then repeatedly using it to continue to rack up their damage and barely not kill. I don't really have much sympathy for players who fall for that trap; it's no different than continuing to spam non-kill moves way longer than you should. You think you're using the right move for the situation, but you aren't, and you lose because of it.

Actually, Sonic is a good case here, and the basis of the complaint is interesting. I disagree that Sonic's down smash is particularly harder to land than his forward smash; I actually find it a little easier to land. However, that's not the point. The point is that, by design, Sonic struggles to kill. His mobility is just obscene, and his crazy spinning antics combine with that to give him an amazing pressure game. If he could easily kill on top of that, he'd just be broken. So therefore, Sonic has few kill options, and those aren't even particularly amazing and are difficult to use. Sonic has to be really judicious with them on a lot of levels if he wants low percent kills, and that includes factoring in stale moves a lot. Of course, Sonic finds it easier than most to land those weaker hits so he can easily have a partially refreshed fsmash pretty quickly, but by the time he's done, the opponent is indeed at really high damage. He has to be very smart if he wants that kill at the lower damage, and that's fair for Sonic. It's a big contrast to a character like Donkey Kong who doesn't have nearly the speed or pressure game, but he has a plethora of over the top kill moves. Donkey Kong's solution to having a stale kill move is to either kill with it anyway (because even when a little stale his kill moves tend to still be pretty good) or just use another one since he has plenty.

It really does add lots of depth; if that previous discussion wasn't convincing, let's look at some more characters. I'm going to get into Fox. Fox can kill decently with all three smashes, but the one that really stands out is up smash. Fox can kill stupidly low with his up smash, especially against light characters. However, his up smash is actually the EASIEST of his smashes to land. This puts Fox in a bit of a dilemma. Fox would love to use up smash a lot because it's fairly easy to land, puts the opponent in a great position (above Fox), and does a lot of damage. However, if he does this, up smash won't be a reliable kill move, and he'll probably rely on something else to kill (up aerial when they're above him fsmash or dsmash, some form of gimping). He can choose to give up all of those advantages and be sparing with his up smash use, and then he can throw it out at an appropriate kill range for the move to kill far lower than Fox ordinarily does. This is good design because it changes Fox from a character who, without stale moves, would use a lot of up smash to both rack damage and kill early to a character who has branching playstyles of arguable comparable effectiveness to use. Isn't being able to use the same character multiple effective ways one of the greatest signs of depth?

Lucas is another good example. Lucas's down throw is his best throw for follow-ups at low damage, and it's his best kill throw at high damage. That forces an interesting decision on Lucas off grabs. Should he use his down throw (most effective throw in almost any situation) or should he use one of his other throws (does more damage by base and keeps down throw fresh)? Squirtle is in a nearly identical situation; stale moves are why these characters use more than one throw. Of course, Lucas himself has a good example of another effect of stale moves. Lucas has up smash, a move that kills obscenely low that is extraordinarily hard to hit with. It's almost sure to be fresh at any time, and because of that, it's a far more valuable thing for Lucas to have than if stale moves didn't exist since, unless you just killed them with up smash, you probably always have some fresh kill option with Lucas (not that usmash struggles to kill if it's a little stale).

It is a powerful boost to transforming characters for that regard. Changing into another character gives you a totally fresh set of moves so it's a big added incentive to use Zelda & Sheik as intended (by Sakurai, not just us) and to cycle Pokemon frequently. Of course, that was a good idea for a lot of reasons, but this is even more incentive to play these characters with insanely more variety than the "use one form always, avoid switching whenever possible" strategy some people seem to like.

As per up tilt chains, I don't think they're bad design or have a bad effect on the game. A lot of "good" up tilts would be bluntly bad moves if they didn't lead into themselves at low damage. Squirtle's up tilt is one of the best in the game at chaining into itself, but it isn't very easy to land compared to many of his other fast options (such as his f1 jab) so the fact that it has such damage potential is really the only reason to use it. Sometimes chaining doesn't save an up tilt from being mediocre; I almost never up tilt as Mr. Game & Watch, and he can chain flags. I don't think Fox really chains his amazing up tilt quite as much as suggested, though it certainly only adds to Fox's style with his big focus on good "up" moves (Fox's best two ground moves are up tilt and up smash, and it's highly arguably that his best aerial is up aerial... though down aerial gives it a run for its money). Also, the fact that there's a class of moves helped by being stale is something that I feel adds depth itself. In any case, up tilt chains don't really do enough damage to be a problem for the game (see also: Kirby grab combos); I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

Some moves simply have to be awful for the sake of the game. Jigglypuff's Sing is a good example. It's just an awful move you essentially never want to use. However, consider how it works in terms of game design. It totally prevents the victim from moving, and that's all it does. If this move were somehow really good, it would be awful for the game. In the interest of the overall game, it is still an awful move in Balanced Brawl. You also have moves like Falcon Punch that are... just not well thought out moves design wise. Of course, a lot of these moves that are just such bad concepts are legacy from older smash games... Regardless though, it's inaccurate to pin Ganondorf's forward aerial as such a move. It's a decent enough kill move, and it has a lot of range compared to Ganondorf's other aerials (actually good range in general). Of course, it's pretty laggy even for a Ganondorf move, and in particular the landing lag is really extreme. This actually makes it like a worse Mr. Game & Watch forward aerial. It's great for chasing off-stage (you have to be very confident in yourself to chase off-stage as Ganondorf, but it can be done), and it can punish some things that no other moves can punish quite right. However, you have to be smart since misusing it just leaves you wide open. In Ganondorf's case, it's perilous enough that it will be used pretty seldom, but I feel as though skilled Ganondorf players will use this move. It is at least likely to be fresh!

To touch on the idea of not thinking about stale moves when you play, to me that strikes me like the people who dashdance in standard Brawl. It's a horrible idea because it makes you trip. They don't like tripping so they choose to ignore that it can happen, and then they are upset when it does happen and act like the game just did them wrong when they were asking for it. It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the system; you simply cannot be good at standard Brawl or Balanced Brawl if you do not factor stale moves into your decision making process. To deny it out of a disdain for it is simply asking to lose.

Thinkaman does feel very, very strongly about stale moves; I hope he didn't offend anyone, but it's an issue he feels passionately about. He's certainly in the position to defend them; in standard Brawl he mains Jigglypuff, perhaps the single character most affected by stale moves. I hope no one took offense over some heated rhetoric, but we all do have issues close to our hearts. I mean, if you start talking about how we failed as a project since we encourage play on more stages when a truly balanced smash game would only be played on Final Destination, you might upset me quite a bit as well (I love stage diversity more than almost anything in Brawl). Just take this in stride, and I can say that it's definitely completely contrary to our principles to ever change the stale move system. It's also our "official" stance that the system is a marked positive for the game, and we stand behind the effects it has on the metagame.

 

[Thinkaman]

EDIT: Dang it Ampharos you out wall-of-text'd my wall-of-text!

*Stuff about stale moves*

I'll just provide a few examples of stale moves contributing to deeper gameplay and balance.

First, stale moves serves as a mild auto-balance mechanic. Thanks to Stale Moves it is okay for characters to have attacks that are slightly stronger in specific matchups than they could usually get away with. Take G&W bair. Without SM, we would have no choice but to nerf it. Can you imagine vMK's tornado without stale moves? Or shuttle loop? ICs cgs?

Second, stale moves forces players to make tactical decisions. Jigglypuff is the character most affected by stale moves, because for all intents and purposes she only 7 moves without grab, only two of which kill. (Aerials, Pound, and dash attack) As I play Jigglypuff, I start thinking about whether I am going to kill with fair or dash attack. I have to analyze how my opponent is playing that matchup and decide which will be easier. Without SM, Jigglypuff would be a very shallow character in most matchup; her gameplay would consistent entirely of fair and grabs.

Third, stale moves lets us work in little basic chains (like u-tilt) that only work at very specific %s (Usually 0% -> x%) If we took out stale moves, implementing such a change would require growth to be very low and the move could never KO or set up much distance at higher %s.

Fourth, stale moves can prevent highly specific but otherwise reproductible exploits, such a vDDD's infinite. It's impossible to check every nook and cranny of the game during testing, and even the best design considerations can be subverted by an oddball case. Stale moves is just an extra factor that compartmentalizes this and limits the scope of hypothetical problems.

Stale moves contributing to a negative effect is rare and only occurs to a couple attacks where there is medium-low knockback growth. (Pikachu d-throw, Sheik f-tilt, ect.) The only move in BBrawl that is still much of a problem with stale moves is DK's d-tilt corner psuedo-lock.

We've taken stale moves into specific account a LOT, since it's such an important concept:

Peach: Diversified KO power
Yoshi: Stronger tilt chains
Link: Arrow knockback design
Sheik: F-tilt design
Sheik/Zelda: Transform speed increased
Ganon: D-tilt creates followups to clear moves, Wizard's Foot design
Samus: Diversified KO power
ZSS: Diversified KO power
Pit: F-throw design
ROB: D-throw creates followups to clear moves, diversified KO power
MK: Tornado design, Shuttle Loop design (especially against Cipher)
DDD: D-throw creates followups to clear moves
Falco: D-throw design, B-throw design, more accessible KO power
Wolf: More diversified KO power
Pikachu: D-throw design
PT: Switch speed increased, Ivysuar bair design
Jigglypuff: Pummel speed increased to clear moves, diversified KO power
Ness: Diversified throw advantages
Lucas: Diversified throw advantages, d-tilt design, dair design
Snake: Re-evaluation of KO power due to u-tilt nerf
Sonic: D-tilt design

These aren't just changes we made where stale moves plays a factor, that would be a much bigger list. This is a list of changes were stale moves was actively discussed and considered during brainstorming and testing. Specific examples:

-Stale moves was the entire motivation behind the Jigglypuff pummel speed change.
-Lucas d-tilt was made constant so stale moves would not affect the frame advantage it gave.
-Wolf's nair buff might seem unimportant and still inferior to bair and other options, but he can KO with nair when those are stale now.
-As someone who uses certain moves constantly, ROB benefits a great deal from even one extra hit out of a throw.
-We would not have been able to make Ivysaur bair as powerful as we did without stale moves, since constantly fresh it would overpower some characters.
-Ganon's down-b going through most projectiles attacks was important for him to work, but too powerful in general. Stale Moves let us design it so that it only works when fresh.

Basically, stale moves is like a safety feature that lets characters have extra powerful options while keeping them from getting out of hand in certain matchups.

 

[blakinola]

You guys took the words out of my mouth

 

[smashkng]

Ally or another Snake once lived til 296% against a Dedede. Even epic DI to survive a D3 back throw from edge of FD at like 200%.

 

[Thinkaman]

You guys took the words out of my mouth

And then some I'll bet.

Anyway, apology time! Mass confusion and compound failure on our part surrounding MK's Dimensional Cape. A rather small MK down-b buff was considered and created, but not thought to be included by Ampharos. Far less excusable is my massive failure of actually missing the two associated hitboxes when making the changelist! The changelist has been updated to fix this, and I'm confident that no other hitboxes were missing.

To preface this change, it's really just throwing MK a bone for being nerfed, like Snake's buffed d-smash. (But of even more questionable value.) It's a small change given how awful the attack was to begin with, and if BBrawl MK didn't have trouble getting KOs it would be a completely useless buff. It lets you go for a sneaky kill at high %s, though you are probably better of going for a nair or something more safe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness is amazing, and his aerials are wicked safe, A2ZOMG. The only thing I can agree on is PKFire being really overrated.

Only his F-air is "wicked safe" when retreating. The point I'm trying to get across however is that Ness doesn't have anything abuseable that has extremely low ending lag. Sure, he's not as laggy as Ganondorf, but his ending lag on everything is just average at best, which means it's still punishable in normal situations. Which gets worse when you factor his low range in general. The duration on his attacks is also fairly long, which means when he uses an attack, he's fairly committed to it. A person with good reaction and spacing can consistently take advantage of this.

This, besides getting grab released a lot, is why Ness was not very good in vBrawl. Bad combination of low range, and unimpressive speed/safety. Grab release chaingrabs were often banned against Ness/Lucas anyway, and still they never really made a huge mark.

The bat is a lot better now, but even in vBrawl it wasn't terrible, like you suggest.

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand how one of the shorter ranged F-smashes in this game isn't terrible when it has slow startup and significant ending lag.

And before you try to tell me this attack has good range, think carefully what F-smashes this attack actually outranges. I'll name them for you off the top of my head.

Luigi
Peach
Wario
Jigglypuff (maybe, haven't tested enough)
Diddy Kong
Pit
G&W (not actually sure, G&W's leans forward a lot on his F-smash, so Ness's F-smash is mainly more disjointed if anything)

The only redeeming quality that helps Ness land this attack is its disjoint, but it's so punishable on miss and slow on startup that this doesn't make as much of a difference as it should.

 

[BG3]

Snake vs. Diddy, the guy lived at 260% BECAUSE of stale moves (and pretty amazing DI but, still, you can't help but factor the stale moves into it).

260%!? I never even knew someone could live that long in competitive smash. But anyways, AA and Think, not any of you think that's ridiculous? Imagine you being the Diddy player, how pissed would you be knowing that your opponent is using a terribly implemented game mechanic such as this to have an obscenely large advantage. Stale moves is a good idea on paper, but Sakurai implemented it terribly. Stale moves is unfair for a decently large amount of the roster in Brawl, and it hurts the balance greatly. vBrawl matches already take so long, and it's because of that, that it's generally agreed that competitive matches of it are just boring and not even fun to watch. With no change to something as game changing as stale moves, I fear that BBrawl might suffer the same fate as vBrawl did with long, boring, uninteresting matches.

Also Think, you're wrong about stale moves creating a less shallow experience for matches. Have you ever played Brawl+? Matches of those don't just consist of one move being repeated over and over, and it seems to play excellently, am I right? Oh, and I'm sorry if I sound like a troll, I do support this project, it's just I don't agree with some of your decisions.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I'm pretty sure it's because Ally kept DIing out of Diddy's fsmash before the final hitbox hit. Stale moves should certainly be kept in.

A2ZOMG, watch this post as I'll edit it with replies.

 

[A2ZOMG]

BG3, this is why you learn KO percents in Brawl. Nuff said really.

By the way, Snake is broken if stale moves is turned down. F-tilt and U-tilt spam ALL DAY.

EDIT: Whatever you say Mr. Esc. I guess I'll have stuff to say about what you're going to say later.

 

[Mit]

vBrawl matches already take so long, and it's because of that, that it's generally agreed that competitive matches of it are just boring and not even fun to watch. With no change to something as game changing as stale moves, I fear that BBrawl might suffer the same fate as vBrawl did with long, boring, uninteresting matches.

Also Think, you're wrong about stale moves creating a less shallow experience for matches. Have you ever played Brawl+? Matches of those don't just consist of one move being repeated over and over, and it seems to play excellently, am I right? Oh, and I'm sorry if I sound like a troll, I do support this project, it's just I don't agree with some of your decisions.

"Long, boring matches" don't make Brawl unbalanced, therefore they don't need to be fixed in BBrawl. Stale moves are a rather large mechanic to Brawl, and removing them would potentially change many people's playstyles, and overall deviate too far from the vBrawl formula that BBrawl tries so hard to keep.

They definitely aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Revven]

"Long, boring matches" don't make Brawl unbalanced, therefore they don't need to be fixed in BBrawl. Stale moves are a rather large mechanic to Brawl, and removing them would potentially change many people's playstyles, and overall deviate too far from the vBrawl formula that BBrawl tries so hard to keep.

They definitely aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

lol, but he's not even saying to remove it entirely. He's saying to tone DOWN the stale moves, there's quite a few codes that can do that in the Competitive Agenda y'know.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have not seen the 260% match, but I've been told it was an amazing game that no rational person would complain about. Also, the Diddy Kong player won after he killed Snake with Monkey Flip Kick, and that let him take first place at SNES, a large tournament, and outplace both Ally and Mew2King. Believe me, there was nothing to complain about at all from Diddy Kong's perspective, and if I had to guess, I'd say the main reason Ally lived to 260% was that he was doing stuff like SDIing out of Diddy Kong's fsmash (since it's two hits) and not falling into banana trip -> dsmash, not just because of stale moves.

I am only going to say this once, but please, please do not ask Thinkaman or I to discuss Brawl+. It's just not something we want to do.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Isn't anyone uploading BBrawl Standard Release matches on youtube?
How does a wifi tournament turns out would be interesting for the community to see...

I don't own a camera and I cannot record videos. I can't buy one yet. On the other hand, I am not able to play BBrawl with little lag on wifi or offline, sadly. I don't have the people for that, yet.

Those matches you were speaking before.. and someone else made comments about them.. are they uploaded somewhere?

 

[Linkshot]

Sadly, no matches were recorded during the Ottawa tourney.
Maybe I should request next time bBrawl takes place.

 

[daisho]

When I have time later today or tomorrow id like to play Bbrawl online and I would save and upload any good matches.

And a wifi tournament may be a good idea.

 

[A2ZOMG]

My labtop can record footage, but I've been too lazy.

I main Mario, and my friend mains Samus. I think eventually we'll have some interesting matches up.

Oh and anyhow, uh...I got to look into replay hacks. <_<

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I decided to make the post here, A2ZOMG.

Only his F-air is "wicked safe" when retreating. The point I'm trying to get across however is that Ness doesn't have anything abuseable that has extremely low ending lag. Sure, he's not as laggy as Ganondorf, but his ending lag on everything is just average at best, which means it's still punishable in normal situations. Which gets worse when you factor his low range in general. The duration on his attacks is also fairly long, which means when he uses an attack, he's fairly committed to it. A person with good reaction and spacing can consistently take advantage of this.

His Fair is immensely safe in pretty much all aspects. The hitbox is enormous, it's quick, and the landing lag/cooldown aren't even that bad at all. It's easily a good Ness' most used aerial, and it's only unsafe if you are approaching with it; doing Fair in place is quite safe as well. Just like how there are different criteria in working out whether a move is "quick" or not, there are multiple aspects which contribute to how "safe" a move is. The hitbox on the Fair is much larger than Ness, for one thing, even when strafing forward in the air. The difference is that the hitbox is mainly over Ness in that situation, but with his mobility in the air he can simply stop moving forward so the sparks shift in front of himself. That's the other thing; Ness' base aerial mobility is really really good. Having good mobility makes all of his aerials safe to throw out, as he can move back out of the way or move into the enemy to follow up.

Much like G&W's cool down is really impressive on a lot of his moves, the startup on Ness' moves, especially the aerials, makes it so he can move into the enemy and use it right before they can initiate their move. G&W has to use his aerial somewhat before engaging the opponent because of his average startup time, whereas Ness can use his aerials at any point, but instead has to pull out a bit earlier because of his average cooldown. Both have very safe aerials because of their mobility and properties on their moves.

Ness' hitboxes on his aerials are all really good in comparison to his hurtbox:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230662&highlight=frame

It doesn't have Dair or Nair, but they too have incredible hitboxes. Dair's hitbox in particular makes up for it's average cooldown and landing lag.

This, besides getting grab released a lot, is why Ness was not very good in vBrawl. Bad combination of low range, and unimpressive speed/safety. Grab release chaingrabs were often banned against Ness/Lucas anyway, and still they never really made a huge mark.

Ness is actually really good in vBrawl. He's easily high tier material if he had the same ground break as most characters. His range/speed/safety are all impressive given how small his hurtbox is and his middleweight status. Grab releases were practically never banned, and even when they were Ness isn't exactly a character you can pick up and do great with. FOW has shown Ness' potential despite grab releases still being there against him.

I'm sorry, but I fail to understand how one of the shorter ranged F-smashes in this game isn't terrible when it has slow startup and significant ending lag.

...what?
Ness' fsmash is a lot of things, but if there is one thing it isn', it's short ranged.

And before you try to tell me this attack has good range, think carefully what F-smashes this attack actually outranges. I'll name them for you off the top of my head.

You're doing something similar to what JKBUK did in the social discussion thread. Listing things that really have no point in bringing up. What matters is that Ness' Fsmash is practically the same range as G&W's Dtilt, which is definitely a long ranged ground move, and that the hitbox on the baseball bat extends a great deal away from Ness' hurtbox. Things like Bowser's fsmash may have more actual range, but it suffers from the hitbox being coupled with his hurtbox. Ness' range itself is great, and it being independent from himself is also a thing you need to consider.


Ness' Bat is really good in BBrawl. It's only average in vBrawl. Average startup, average cool down, great range, amazing damage, very effective on charge, relatively safe on shields, etc. Walking back and Fsmashing with Ness really does have it's merits.

 

[Big O]

My labtop can record footage, but I've been too lazy.

I main Mario, and my friend mains Samus. I think eventually we'll have some interesting matches up.

Oh and anyhow, uh...I got to look into replay hacks. <_<

I'm pretty sure BBrawl comes with the "longer than 3 minute replays" code. I'm also ready anytime today for our wifi matches.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty sure BBrawl comes with the "longer than 3 minute replays" code. I'm also ready anytime today for our wifi matches.

OH REALLY!

Well how does 3:00 sound?

As for the whole thing about Ness's F-smash having short range, keep in mind that it has like 45 frames of ending lag. That's honestly as comparatively terrible as the ending lag on Ike's F-smash, being completely vulnerable for 3/4s of a second, which means almost anyone right outside of range can startup F-smash (or something else) as soon as his ends, and punish.

A short ranged Smash like Luigi's F-smash has crazy low ending lag, so even if he's in range to be punished, he's significantly harder to punish. Ness's F-smash however leaves him wide open, meaning that he always has to count on someone screwing up to have an opportunity to pull it off.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm pretty sure BBrawl comes with the "longer than 3 minute replays" code.

Correct. All files we have posted include this.

 

[BG3]

"Long, boring matches" don't make Brawl unbalanced, therefore they don't need to be fixed in BBrawl. Stale moves are a rather large mechanic to Brawl, and removing them would potentially change many people's playstyles, and overall deviate too far from the vBrawl formula that BBrawl tries so hard to keep.

They definitely aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

It was my fault for including that in my wall of text. I was only concerning the support for the project might be going down if matches generally do not differ from vBrawl's style of matches. Basically long, boring, and uninteresting.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That is not indicate of standard Brawl matches at all. Standard Brawl matches tend to be ridiculously chock full of prediction when good players are involved; it's really quite exciting if you're a tactical sort of person.

The main purpose of Ness's fsmash is to punish landing lag from aerials. It's pretty good at that.

 

[PKNintendo]

What's the point of arguing Escalator? Some people just don't see to reason. Just let Azomg speak his mind.

It's not a question of being super laggy. It's actually having at least one thing that has really low ending lag that can be abused. Ness doesn't have anything that's super safe that is in the league of Mario's D-air, G&W's Smashes, ZSS's Forward B/D-smash, that kind of stuff except for D-tilt on shield.

Sorry but this isn't a REQUIREMENT.
Mario's Dair can be abused? News to me.

I believe Ness fair fills that category but you probably disregarded/ignored it.

PS: Gotta agree with Azzom, Ness bat is terrible. There really isn't a need to buff it though. The power buff makes its not almost completely overshadow by Lucas'.


Also

Lucas's playstyle is different, but his problems are also fundamentally the same, although addressed better with a superior spotdodge which fundamentally increases his ability to set up and get in peoples range.

Okay, I'm going to disregard your posts now.

 

[MK26]

As for the whole thing about Ness's F-smash having short range, keep in mind that it has like 45 frames of ending lag. That's honestly as comparatively terrible as the ending lag on Ike's F-smash, being completely vulnerable for 3/4s of a second, which means almost anyone right outside of range can startup F-smash (or something else) as soon as his ends, and punish.

A short ranged Smash like Luigi's F-smash has crazy low ending lag, so even if he's in range to be punished, he's significantly harder to punish. Ness's F-smash however leaves him wide open, meaning that he always has to count on someone screwing up to have an opportunity to pull it off.

According to PSA:
Fsmash End Lag:
Ness: 32 Frames
Ike: 45 frames
Luigi (no angle/angled down): 28 frames
Luigi (angled up): 15 frames O_O

Thinkaman, if i may ask, where does MK fit in your vWario-vLucario tier list?

 

[PKNintendo]

According to frame Data
Lucas Fsmash comes out faster, has more range, and KO's 4% earlier than tippered Ness Fsmash.

Glad the power was readjusted in BBrawl.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

According to frame Data
Lucas Fsmash comes out faster, has more range, and KO's 4% earlier than tippered Ness Fsmash.

Glad the power was readjusted in BBrawl.

I think his knockback should be increased too.. wtf were they thinking when they made Lucas Fsmash so much better...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Increased damage translates to increased knockback growth due to how the launch force formula works. Ness's fsmash now kills lower than it used to.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Played Big O a bit. He went all Ganon. I went Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Ganon, ROB, and G&W.

I won most of the matches, although we went decently close in Ganon dittos and Ganon vs Bowser and Ganon vs Luigi. However my impression still stands that Ganondorf is still a terrible character that has very few options for dealing with shieldcamping.

I also think Bowser is not very good for similar reasons as to why Ganondorf isn't good.

Also I'm not sure where you're getting your frame data from. This is Ness's F-smash according to their frame data thread. I doubt the hitbox is out for longer than 2 frames, because that's the way it has been in previous games.

Start up: 20
Hits: 21
Hit lag: 22-34
Ends: 67
Shield Lag: 14
Shield Stun: 8

 

[MK26]

Project Smash Attacks >>>>>>> other methods of getting frame data

If the FitNess.pac says it ends on frame 50, it ends on frame 50
It comes out on frame 16 and stays out for frame 17
If im reading this right, it starts reflecting on frame 14 and ends at frame 24
There's also something that happens at frame 45, but it's in script so im not sure whether or not it's an IASA window

 

[PKNintendo]

AZOMG got ***** lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

AZOMG got ***** lol.

Not exactly. 32 frames of ending lag is still ridiculously terrible. And I just tested, G&W's F-smash does in fact outrange Ness's F-smash.

 

[PKNintendo]

Not exactly. 32 frames of ending lag is still ridiculously terrible. And I just tested, G&W's F-smash does in fact outrange Ness's F-smash.

You still got *****. Your chasing a moot point here. We KNOW that Ness Fsmash sucks. You just spouted some frame bullcrap.

Dead end.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You still got *****. Your chasing a moot point here. We KNOW that Ness Fsmash sucks. You just spouted some frame bullcrap.

Dead end.

Actually, all I just proved is that your boards suck. And nobody has actually proven why Ness doesn't suck.

Until someone can tell me that Ness can actually approach stuff on shield reliably against fast characters, and that he doesn't have gimmicky setups for getting kills, he's a terrible character.

My point stands that he is unimpressive in terms of speed and range, and that's a recipe for being mediocre.

 

[Thinkaman]

I just did some DI testing. Lots of numbers:

Vertical Test
% required to KO with back hitbox of Mario fully charged u-smash from center of FD in training mode.
No DI: No input.
DI: Simple DI to the side, away from Mario, starting on frame of hit.
Aerial: Same, but adds a specified aerial on the first available frame.
Special: Same, but adds given special move after aerial.

Jigglypuff
No DI- 56
DI- 62
Uair- 65

Mr. Game & Watch
No DI- 60
DI- 66
Nair- 71
Bucket- 73

Yoshi
No DI- 75
DI- 83
Uair- 90
Egg- 91

King Dedede
No DI- 86
DI- 95
Nair- 104

Horizontal Test
% required to KO with inner hitbox of fully charged Mario f-smash from the center of FD in training mode. Simple DI inward always assumed, starting on first frame of hit.

Jigglypuff
Uair- 78

Mr. Game & Watch
Nair- 84
Bucket- 99

Yoshi
Uair- 98
Egg- 111

Bowser
Fair- 111

Long Range Test
% required to KO with inner hitbox of uncharged Mario f-smash from the opposite edge of FD in training mode. No DI allowed.

Jigglypuff
Uair- 123

Mr. Game & Watch
Nair- 133
Bucket- 165

Yoshi
Uair- 162
Egg- 186

Bowser
Fair- 166

Conclusion:
Yoshi is now the best character in the game for surviving long horizontal hits. Yoshi may wish to maximize this advantage by picking large stages. This should affirm Norfair as a great Yoshi stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

Double post to address concerns separate from my last big post:

Thinkaman, if i may ask, where does MK fit in your vWario-vLucario tier list?

Fill the tier list thingy I posted out and PM it to me, and I'll tell you.

According to frame Data
Lucas Fsmash comes out faster, has more range, and KO's 4% earlier than tippered Ness Fsmash.

Even the inner hitboxes of bat still do more damage than stick though, and bat has a tip that DOES KO sooner...

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually, all I just proved is that your boards suck. And nobody has actually proven why Ness doesn't suck.

Until someone can tell me that Ness can actually approach stuff on shield reliably against fast characters, and that he doesn't have gimmicky setups for getting kills, he's a terrible character.

My point stands that he is unimpressive in terms of speed and range, and that's a recipe for being mediocre.

Pretty sure I'm the only Ness main here lol. Your feeding me horse**** here.
Starting with Fair here:
Given the range, speed, and priority of Fair, it actually shuts down very many approaches.

Nair is a quick GTFO move, and his bair is decent killer. Pretty decent out of shield.
His approach is not bad either.

Gimmicky KO moves?
He has his backthrow, Uair, Bair and Dair spike.

Geez man, you are SO full of it. You don't even play AS or against the character reliably enough to state things that are remotely true.

 

[PKNintendo]

Double post to address concerns separate from my last big post:



Fill the tier list thingy I posted out and PM it to me, and I'll tell you.



Even the inner hitboxes of bat still do more damage than stick though, and bat has a tip that DOES KO sooner...

I was referring to vBrawl. You guys made it better guys.

 

[Thinkaman]

I was referring to vBrawl. You guys made it better guys.

I know. It was like that in normal Brawl. Bat does more damage, and has a tip. Stick is faster and more knockback.