Epic Kovumon
Smash Journeyman
I never thought that Brawl would have so many problems that they would make different versions like they're doing.
I guess Sakurai really ****ed up.
I guess Sakurai really ****ed up.
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Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*
- Thread starter Amazing Ampharos
- Start date
- Status
Revven
FrankerZ
Slashy, stfu, you're an idiot.
Bolded: Shows exactly how much you know about Brawl+.
Epic Kovumon
Smash Journeyman
I have one problem.
The name.
Can you think of something less generic and simple as "Balanced Brawl?"
Just saying...
The name.
Can you think of something less generic and simple as "Balanced Brawl?"
Just saying...
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Haha this is a great proyect. The TL upB fix is cool :O. An fsmash that connects like brawl+'s wouldnt be bad either. 
Brawl+ is not about balancing Brawl, WTH are you saying?
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
As a pikachu main, i'm kinda worried. A lot of Pikachu's Matchups, and hell, DEFINITELY his tier placement are due to his CGs. YOu took away a MAJOR part of pikachu's game, and gave him...nothing. As you said, pikachu can't really combo out of any of his grabs anymore, and that isn't fair to pikachu. Make his grab animation longer so he can't CG, but don't add frames to the end which will eliminate a MAJOR part of his gameplay. That definitely drops him to WAY below diddy level, considering pikachu wasn't there WITH the CGs. You should at least buff something like damage on fair and D-smash. Hell, you could even make it harder to DI out of D-smash, but have the last hit NOT knock you straight up so we can't use it as a guaranteed thunder chase, and also increase the damage per hit. CGing was a major damage racker against 80% of the cast, and now he is lost because that was taken away. I haven't played it so i don't know from experience, but somebody please inform me on what was done to make pikachu playable. I mean, he can't even grab COMBO anymore, which was used against EVERYBODY. People who pikachu couldn't CG, he could always F-throw Usmash for a good 24%, which really helps him. Without it...he is either going to have to camp more or get in close range more without the opponent fearing getting grabbed...
Revven
FrankerZ
Slashy is an idiot, just ignore him, he doesn't represent ANYTHING.
I'll just give an overall opinion in its entirety.
This project has potential. It really does. It's a preview, and I do like some of the changes
However, its main goal really seems to be holding it back A LOT. The overall goal that "no one should have any problem moving between standard Brawl and Balanced Brawl."
As it is, you're limiting yourself to only fixing the most glaringly obvious flaws. However, if you want to make "Balanced" Brawl as balanced as possible, you have to make some hitbox modifications.
But the overall goal prevents that. Why does Wolf's nair never work as it should (literally no hitstun)? Why can a person punish Sheik's fsmash by not performing DI and just shield in-between? Why is Toon Link's fsmash not even considered a move by some because you can get Dragon Punched/Dolphin Slashed/Rested out of landing it?
Why are Snake's tilts not reduced in size somehow? Should ftilt 2nd hit really be the longest ranged move in the game? With that kind of animation? In such a defensive-focused game?
These are the little problems, that add up to making the vBrawl experience EXTREMELY poor for some people unless of course...
you used a S tier.
Also it seems like you guys kinda had trouble trying to balance anyone in the middle of the spectrum (Peach, Toon Link, etc.). Buffs like Peach Bomber and better grounded UpB, which are like literally borderline useless/situational moves. The goal is to become as good as Diddy, but it seems like a lot of characters that are truly "mediocre" don't get anything too helpful. It doesn't fix their problems and really just seems to sugarcoat them instead of improving them.
Then there's people like Marth who lost stuff that say, made the MK and Wario match-ups bearable but get nothing in return.
Finally, I really do think you guys should take more people under your wing. I really can see there wasn't enough input here and there. And a team of two similar-minded people won't make this project truly live up to its name.
I would complain about Ganon's upB and that it needs a slight tone-down, but I'm just gonna be ignored. Mostly because this is a wall of text and that I have a grape-colored name. I've watched this thread somewhat closely, and I can say a lot of the people posting here and truly ignoring people on the basis of their name color lmao.
I couldn't expect any less from people in that regard.
This project has potential. It really does. It's a preview, and I do like some of the changes
However, its main goal really seems to be holding it back A LOT. The overall goal that "no one should have any problem moving between standard Brawl and Balanced Brawl."
As it is, you're limiting yourself to only fixing the most glaringly obvious flaws. However, if you want to make "Balanced" Brawl as balanced as possible, you have to make some hitbox modifications.
But the overall goal prevents that. Why does Wolf's nair never work as it should (literally no hitstun)? Why can a person punish Sheik's fsmash by not performing DI and just shield in-between? Why is Toon Link's fsmash not even considered a move by some because you can get Dragon Punched/Dolphin Slashed/Rested out of landing it?
Why are Snake's tilts not reduced in size somehow? Should ftilt 2nd hit really be the longest ranged move in the game? With that kind of animation? In such a defensive-focused game?
These are the little problems, that add up to making the vBrawl experience EXTREMELY poor for some people unless of course...
you used a S tier.
Also it seems like you guys kinda had trouble trying to balance anyone in the middle of the spectrum (Peach, Toon Link, etc.). Buffs like Peach Bomber and better grounded UpB, which are like literally borderline useless/situational moves. The goal is to become as good as Diddy, but it seems like a lot of characters that are truly "mediocre" don't get anything too helpful. It doesn't fix their problems and really just seems to sugarcoat them instead of improving them.
Then there's people like Marth who lost stuff that say, made the MK and Wario match-ups bearable but get nothing in return.
Finally, I really do think you guys should take more people under your wing. I really can see there wasn't enough input here and there. And a team of two similar-minded people won't make this project truly live up to its name.
I would complain about Ganon's upB and that it needs a slight tone-down, but I'm just gonna be ignored. Mostly because this is a wall of text and that I have a grape-colored name. I've watched this thread somewhat closely, and I can say a lot of the people posting here and truly ignoring people on the basis of their name color lmao.
I couldn't expect any less from people in that regard.
Three things.
1. We can't remove the infinite without removing the cg.
2. Even if we could, it would still be an infinite in corners.
3. It requires walk-off stages to be banned almost just because of DDD.
It simply isn't a good thing to leave in.
Furthermore, you really, really need to try DDD's new tech chasing game before you knock it. It's really, really good. As in, so good that we considered nerfing DDD more, but decided it would be premature. You have to understand that this tech chase is better than what DDD is used to doing on existing characters, much better. Furthermore, the new, better tech chasing applies to those characters too!
Finally, opponents can sometimes tech the throw, but that makes things EASIER for DDD! The tech animation lasts just as long as the flop, so the only thing they are doing is preventing the slide and reducing the distance DDD needs to move. Players stop trying to tech it after like 2 times, lol.
This might be controversial, but we decided for the time being to leave this in. Ganons in particular already plan around it and do things like side-b the ledge. I would rather buff Ganon than remove a weakness just because it is a glitch.
In general, weaknesses are very, very good things since they make the characters unique. It is only when they drastically polarize the character's matchup that they should be changed.
But these TECHNICALLY aren't trip moves, they are "slip" moves like Diddy's bananas! That means they *can* double slip.
Yep, it's a reasonably realistic move. However, it's still very slow on startup, unlike Ganon's, and DK has Giant Punch. Testing so far has been favorable about the Yoshi fair change, I hope more people paly around with it and try new things out. It's really intended to be a threatening pressure tool.
First, Sonic isn't a low-tier character anymore, even in standard Brawl.
Second, Sonic has ben one of the most favored characters by test groups. "Perfect" is the word they use. Let me explain.
Sonic's spring definitely did not spike before. Now it definitely does. It's very, very good, although moreso against some like Link and less so against some like ROB. This is a very big deal, some testers who don't main Sonic picked him up in testing JUST for spring kills!
Furthermore, the extra damage to uair and dash attack is really important. Dash attack being buffed really emphasizes Sonic's punish-centric playstyle, and the uair buff lets one of his best KO options kill a little soon. Dair and d-tilt were buffed in damage BECAUSE they were bad moves, to round out the character a little.
Also, ironically, Sonic is really, really good at gimping Ike now.
Stale moves is a very important part of Brawl, because it adds a layer of resource management. Instead of just throwing out whichever move would be best in any given situation, you have to consider saving the move. This project does not seek to remove depth from the game, only imbalance.
I'm not sure what aspect of camping you want addressed. We are investigating solutions to limit ledgestalling, and MK in particular can no longer use nado as leverage for stalling, especially on Luigi's Mansion.
Buffing the chain would have no effect on most characters and a TERRIBLE effect on others, especially Ganondorf. It's a bad idea, and if Sheik is to be buffed in the future, I would prefer to look at other options.
I am very interested to have future discussions with the Zelda and Sheik community. Working towards a cohesive character with two sides is not easy.
Fueled by irony!
It is disruptive, for sure. Initially, testers were split on if it was a good idea or not. However, after playing with them, testers greatly prefered the new behavior.
Falcon mainly likes to raptor boost away rolls out of d-tilt, and chase with uairs. It's very natural for him.
Ganondorf has an entire new layer of tech chasing with it. I've done over 60% in a single tech-chasing chain against humans. It's a huuuuge buff once you get used to it, it gives Ganon so many options that fit in with his existing game.
The thing is, the grounding effect fits into that tech chasing game I just described. Jekyll started grounding people out of side-b get-up-attacks, and absolutely wrecking them! Landing even one grounding down-b is incredible damage and will let you KO above 75% or so, and side-b and tripping d-tilt make it a realistic move to land.
Most high-level Wario mains were surprisingly apathetic to the grab release change. "Who cares, I don't get grabbed 'cause I'm Wario." It think they were exagerrating and it is a legit buff to Wario, but it's not the biggest deal.
Wario is on my watch list though, I can tell you that. G&W too.
I really do think fair is a Yoshi buff that people need to try. It looks bad on paper, but in practice feels natural and lets Yoshi pressure and KO better. It compliments his bair nicely.
We wanted to buff Yoshi throws, but are not able to. Instead, we settled on a 50% buff to his pummel.
Jigglypuff is already faster in the air (horizontally) than Wario. Wario is faster vertically, but so is every character in the game.
Trust me, I know Jigglypuff.
No, the aerial grab release animation ends sooner for all characters. Yoshi's chaingrab is removed, although we intended to account for this in his pummels. I hope you do some testing and report back on what you think.
Yes, this is similar behavior. Yoshi does not fall helplessly after Egg Roll now as part of this, letting him use it to "Egg Brake" recover like G&W.
First, thanks for the testing and feedback! This is great!
Luigi's fireball is sort of like Dyn's Fire; it seems "too good" until you get used to blocking it, in which case it isn't really a big deal at all. It only helps Luigi pressure peopel into approaching him without making himself vulnerable. It's nasty in lag, though.
Mario's problem wasn't approach, since he can shoot his fireballs while moving forward in the air. (This is a massive part of his playstyle.) A damage buff was much more desired and natural for Mario, and testers have widely approved of this change. People like the new Mario *a lot*.
I addressed Rest earlier, so for the sake of time I'll speed ahead.
Nado's mobility isn't changed, it was always that good!
Temple is sort of just an "experiment". I do think it is interesting now for teams matches!
PK Fire is definitely possible to DI still, just harder. I suggest quarter-sticking up and away.
Ike's problem was mainly one of mobility, which included recovery. Ness's recovery is bad, but he doesn't suffer from that larger, fundamental problem. For that reason, we can stick to buffing Ness's strengths so he can remain a unique character. For example, there is no reason to buff Olimar's recovery, and his is much worse than Ness's.
Don't underestimate d-throw; having a throw that does 14% damage and combos into aerials on the character with the best dash grab i nthe game is ridiculous.
Praxis, first I want to thank you for your input. I mean this. I am actually specifically worried about Peach personally, and intended to post in your general discussio nat some point in the future.If you want to make Peach's Peach Bomber useful, make it impact shields. The reason it's useless is that if the opponent shields, Peach passes through them harmlessly, then lands with a lot of lag. They just shield the easily-visible move, then punish with anything they want.
If the Peach Bomber interacted with shields, Peach would safely bounce off a shield, requiring a spotdodge or an attack to actually punish the Peach Bomber. THAT would make it useful.
It just seems to me that the changes you made will make zero difference to her metagame...I might get one kill in the entire set with fsmash, usually not even that...and I never use Peach bomber, except against Olimar (since the bomber interacts with Pikmin and isn't punishable as Peach bounces).
You can't increase the knockback of throws?
Oh, she's got one other useless move, if you want to look at buffing- Dtilt. Dunno if you can do anything with it though haha. It's got a tiny tiny spike hitbox inside her body- I've only actually landed it once, ever, and on accident at that as someone jumped through me under a platform.
EDIT: What about a ftilt buff? I don't use it particularly often and sometimes end up using it for kills because it's the only thing still fresh and end up killing MK at 160% or so with it since I haven't used it the entire match. Bump its knockback up 10-20% and it becomes something to save.
Or just leave her the same and increase the frequency of dot-eye and stitchface pulls. LOL
I know I'm suggesting a pile of things, just pick one XD
Regardless, I like this project better than B+.
First, let me state a few starting points. We can't buff throws, at all. Sorry. Futhermore, I really don't want to see Peach's air dodge buffed any more than I want to buff Bowser or G&W's roll, DDD's spot dodge, Meta Knight's aerial mobility, Olimar's recovery, or any other unique weakness. If the weakness isn't crippling and doesn't polarize her matchups, I think it is best for us to focus on improving the character's existing strengths to maintain their unique identity. Removing weaknesses is the first step dow nthe road of making all characters the same in the name of balance, so we only want to do that where we MUST to ensure reasonable matchups. (Ike, Luigi, and Ivysaur)
I don't want to commit to any change for Peach, say I would prefer buffing certain moves in the future, or even that she needs further buffs; only testing will decide that, not my opinion on the character or anyone else's. However, I will say that for Peach, a lot of things are on the table. If Peach is shown to need more buffs, we will talk to educated Peach mains like yourself and investigate lots of different options.
Well, it is now!
But seriously, the f-smash buff is a really, really big deal. It makes d-smash equal DEATH a lot sooner. This is actually one of the biggest knockback buffs given to a general move. Also, the healthy amount of extra damage on the back swing is a pretty nice bonus, it's not really anything to scoff at.
As Ampharos said, Holms and other testers found ZSS to be effective with this one change. After playing yourself in several matchups you might agree, or possibly not! I hope you are able to test so that we can get more feedback on this character.
First, you are preaching to the choir about changing have multiple effects. And their is not just 2 sides to the coin, there are 39!
I'm not sure what you mean about QD being used for stalling though. Like, at all. Could you explain?
ROB benefited more than almost anyone from the nerfs MK recieved, and he likes the Wario nerfs too. It is also very uncertain how much some of the low-tier buffs will impact him, as well as how ROB will perform on stages that are now playable. There is a lot of unknown about ROB in this new meta-game, so for the time being we are playing it safe and waiting to see how ROB does. In testing he has done at least decently, I personally doubt he would be "low-tier".
I hope we're about to get a lot of hand-on ROB data from people who know what they are talking about, to make sure ROB is where he needs to be.
Sadly, we can't change throws.
Thanks for testing with Ike. We are hesitant to jump into more Ike changes immedaitely, since Quick Draw as you said is such a HUUUGE change; we need lots of players (like you) to continue investigating exactly what this huge change means for Ike's matchups and overall playstyle.
Wario's grab release problem was polarizing his matchups though, which is the opposite of balance. Peach's is more of a general weakness. Like I said to Praxis, if Peach is shown to need further buffs (which is extremely possible), I would prefer to have Peach mains test buffs to their existing playstyle. We'll see how it goes, once there is enough experience on the table me and Ampharos will be happy to sit down the Peach (and other character) mains and discuss where their characters stand.
We can't change counter sadly... (I'm going to disclose that I originally wanted to...)
Also, we have no way of changing shield damage. This is also a shame, since there are several specific cases where we were interested in using such.
Keep in mind though, that the upgraded Quick Draw is *almost* SAFE ON BLOCK! Only the fastest of buffered jabs can punish you; Quick Draw needs to be dodged to effectively counter. I hope you are able to play with this and see how it feels to you.
First, 175% sounds a little high. We didn't nerf it all that much, since we knew Snake was "very sensitive to u-tilt changes" as Ampharos put it.
Second, we intentionally left f-tilt and grenades alone. Snake is by no means bad. I probably shouldn't say this, but he's on my watch list of characters that might be a little too high. We'll see though; a lot of the upgraded low-tiers do REALLY good against Snake. (Link, Ivysaur...)
Thanks for playing with this and offering your input! I hope you get some matchup experience to share too, in the future; this is good stuff.
Ness f-smash: The bat is a damage move more than a KO move. Notice that the tip received a more substantial buff than the other hitboxes. That said, Ness's bat wasn't intended to be a really big buff, jsut round out his ground game a little.
Ness yo-yos: The Yo-yo buff is intended to be a minor buff that makes the yo-yos more consistent against the cast, since some characters had easy times avoiding the main hit previously. That behavior should be fixed with this small buff.
Ness's air game is already good to the point that we were worried buffing it might start to polarize his matchups; we certainly can't buff say, fair, and I'd be worried about throwing off Ness bair chains by changing it. Instead we decided to emphasize Ness's other strength, his grab game, as well as make Pk Fire more rewarding.
As for Lucas, what we were set on from day one was focusing on his ground game. His improved spot-dodge (rare exception to our no-timing-changes rule) and improved jab were the key of this. I think f-tilt still fits in perfectly, especially if you are staling jab more. Bair was buffed like Mario's fair; not because you hit with it often, but because when you do hit with it, you should probably be killing things.
Sadly, we cannot change trip rates. Falcon, Ganon, and Luigi actually have "slip" properties added, not traditional trip rates.
We will include the texture hack base code in future builds. I actually might go upload one with it in a bit, though yo uare fre to add it yourself if you want.
You really need to try playing with this Bowser before you start dissing it.
Bowser will be doing an average of 5-10% more damage a stock, and killing with all those moves about 10% sooner. That's a big deal.
Furthermore, dair is one of the best shield pressure moves in the game. If their shield isn't full and they are blocking, this dair will demolish them. It can do over 40% damage! It also safely knocks away when it is done, which normally shield stabs even when the rest of the hits were blocked.
Why do you think this topic exists? I've said a million times that we was feedback, feedback, feedback.
You might be surprised how much of an impact the smallest of changes can have. A tiny nerf to Snake's u-tilt, and there are already someone in this thread saying they think it is too much. The fact is, our multiple playtest groups, of good players, have had good things to say about the changes. We're not going to release some busted version where Falcon auto-kills everyone and Meta Knight is worthless. Changes have to be small for the community to be able to "digest" them and gradually get a feel for the impact they will have. I already worry too much about big changes like Ike's, and spend an extra amount of time focusing on those.
KO out of d-smash.
I actually played a lot of Falco last night, and a lot more against a Falco main. Falco isn't bad at all, b-throw to bair or uair is really obnoxious damage. It can be avoided, but it's still good damage and Falco can generally chase people trying to DI out.
Try it before you make automatic assumptions.
Yoshi's Egg Lay actually counts as a grab/throw, so we have no way of changing it. A shame, since it was a move early on I was interesting in changing.
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
just a note for those of you who are apart of this project; please don't associate slashy's behavior with the rest of the brawl+ community. he's had quite the track record when it comes to doing/saying.. stupid things. his behavior is not encouraged by anyone with half a brain that enjoys brawl+ and i hope that you can disregard any further stupidity he may cause you guys in the future.
i wish nothing but luck for your project and that brawl+ and balanced brawl can hopefully coexist peacefully. it is to be expected with two similar projects that attitudes like slashy's would be inevitable and rather infectious.
good luck and press forward.
MK26
Smash Master
Uhhh...yeah, it is. What's the point of having a better Brawl if MK is still broken and the low tiers don't get any better? Brawl+, as far as I know, has two main goals:
1) Return gameplay to the Smash feel present in both 64 and Melee while retaining Brawl's character
2) Balance the characters to make every one tournament viable, with the goal being the equivalent of everbody being a mid-high character
This is me telling everyone to stop flaming (and in turn defending, counter-attacking, and counter-defending) Brawl+. You've had like ten warnings. Back to replying...
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Currently, the water needs fixing. On the beach stage at Delfino, you don't have to KO the opponent once he has a tiny bit of damage: just throw him into the water and watch him drown.
Heck, some characters could just jab the opponent while on the slant to knock them into the water for a VERY early KO.
You guys might also want to know this: There is a good chance the next time San Antonio has a tournament that this will be a side event. While I won't be there due to being in Canada for a while, they will hopefully give you some feedback.
Heck, some characters could just jab the opponent while on the slant to knock them into the water for a VERY early KO.
You guys might also want to know this: There is a good chance the next time San Antonio has a tournament that this will be a side event. While I won't be there due to being in Canada for a while, they will hopefully give you some feedback.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I'll be interested to see if really nerfing SNake's Utilt really does change much. So Snake cannot kill at 100% on light weights. Good luck ever hitting them that early anyway, your more likely to get a bit more damage before the chance to get a clean hit ever arises anyway.
Nerfing jab3 seems rather pointless, I know hardly anyone that ever really kills with it, or even uses it at pro levels as it's easily punished by powershielding or DIing out of.
Still, testing before complaining.
Nerfing jab3 seems rather pointless, I know hardly anyone that ever really kills with it, or even uses it at pro levels as it's easily punished by powershielding or DIing out of.
Still, testing before complaining.
Gea
Smash Master
What I don't get is the talk about obviously buffing the weakness that Wario did have (with no tradeoff) and then not giving peach her airdodge, which is different than things like DDD's spotdodge because on the ground you have more options, like shielding and rolling.
In the air all we can do is dair down and hope for the best. How would buffing it be negative to gameplay? It wouldn't take out her biggest weakness (KO move) but it would subtly make her more viable, even if you made her airdodge the same as Marth's (which is seen as bad, just not on the same level).
We aren't talking about Snake here. You buffed Yoshi and Ike's recovery. Those are BAD weaknesses for them... I just don't see the consistency in your mindset here.
In the air all we can do is dair down and hope for the best. How would buffing it be negative to gameplay? It wouldn't take out her biggest weakness (KO move) but it would subtly make her more viable, even if you made her airdodge the same as Marth's (which is seen as bad, just not on the same level).
We aren't talking about Snake here. You buffed Yoshi and Ike's recovery. Those are BAD weaknesses for them... I just don't see the consistency in your mindset here.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Unless the knockback is substantially better than side-b, back air, or forward air, the 45 frames of lag at the end and the 20-something frames of start-up are a major deterrent. Understand that ZSS has no problem killing right now. Sometimes she has to wait until a slightly higher percent to get the kill, but forward smash killing earlier won't fix that because forward smash is bad for reasons other than kill power.
You are not properly comparing it to the rest of her moveset. It's not rewarding to use because side-b always does it better, even if it's decayed because it's safe on block and has less lag. If you're trying to kill or if you're trying to build damage, you always have better options unless you're saying the move kills at obscenely early percentages, earlier than her down-b kick or side-b (which I doubt).
With that said, I just won't use the move, so I'm not that concerned about that. What I am concerned about is the third hit of her jab, which is terrible in "normal" Brawl because it's powershielded just by holding "R" when they hit you with the first one. =/
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Thinkaman, when you talked about sonics spring, even though you changed the launch angle, you do know it is capable of an instant meteor cancel just by mashing, right? You can't edit spikes vs meteors in the game as its hard-coded in an area which the hitbox modifier code does not touch. This area is where hidden move properties such as reflections (not capes), invuln frames, etc, are stored. Just saying for your reference when defending these things.....
Gea
Smash Master
The spring still got a buff by its ability to "semi-spike" though, correct?
And I don't think some people understand the concept of this project. Small tweaks aren't going to instantly make every character level out and be on the same playing field, that (should) be obvious. Instead you're slowly working on taking the existing character and ironing out the rough parts until they are more viable.
I agree totally with some changes and dislike others, but the best way to suggest improvements would be to realize that ZOMG MAKE SONIC'S DSMASH LIKE META'S OLD ONE (not targetting Sonic users, mind you) isn't a change that is going to be considered.
I do think giving Bowser some super armor on his Fsmash and a few other changes like that would greatly help those characters when compared to the kind of buff Ike got though.
And I don't think some people understand the concept of this project. Small tweaks aren't going to instantly make every character level out and be on the same playing field, that (should) be obvious. Instead you're slowly working on taking the existing character and ironing out the rough parts until they are more viable.
I agree totally with some changes and dislike others, but the best way to suggest improvements would be to realize that ZOMG MAKE SONIC'S DSMASH LIKE META'S OLD ONE (not targetting Sonic users, mind you) isn't a change that is going to be considered.
I do think giving Bowser some super armor on his Fsmash and a few other changes like that would greatly help those characters when compared to the kind of buff Ike got though.
M-WUZ-H3R3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 1,793
This is a pretty neat project and a lot of people seem to warm up to the idea. I thought it was pretty neat. Don't take my opinion the wrong way, I just don't know what to think of this. Truthfully, its pretty daunting to see all these altered versions of brawl that are said to "make brawl better".
If you think about it, brawl wasn't that bad to start with. Sure its pretty unbalanced, there are a few problems that impair gameplay for some characters. But melee was also unbalanced and people didn't seem to have many problems with that.
In melee, how often do you see characters like Pichu, Mewtwo, Yoshi, or Kirby in tournaments? They are pretty underused, while characters like fox, Falco, captain falcon, and Marth are common player choices.
Brawl+ plays great, it's fast paced much like melee. However its a hacked version of a game that people still play competitively regardless of its skill difference in melee. I’m not saying the project was bad, but it was put together by fans alone.
Now with this idea, I thought it was amazing at first glance just like I did when I first saw brawl+.
Of course everyone likes the idea of hacking brawl. Texture hacking, CSS mods, Super codes, etc. that’s all fun, But when it comes to competitive brawl, should it really be changed? There will always be the original, but a brawl+ community? Or even changes as little as this.
Now I’m getting skeptical:
Should we really be altering the way this game plays?
Are we really this upset with how brawl turned out, that we want to make it better?
Currently I have no problem with this continuing to be put into works. After all the effort that was put into this, it seems stupid to want it to stop. This is all possible after all.
Those are just my thoughts.
If you think about it, brawl wasn't that bad to start with. Sure its pretty unbalanced, there are a few problems that impair gameplay for some characters. But melee was also unbalanced and people didn't seem to have many problems with that.
In melee, how often do you see characters like Pichu, Mewtwo, Yoshi, or Kirby in tournaments? They are pretty underused, while characters like fox, Falco, captain falcon, and Marth are common player choices.
Brawl+ plays great, it's fast paced much like melee. However its a hacked version of a game that people still play competitively regardless of its skill difference in melee. I’m not saying the project was bad, but it was put together by fans alone.
Now with this idea, I thought it was amazing at first glance just like I did when I first saw brawl+.
Of course everyone likes the idea of hacking brawl. Texture hacking, CSS mods, Super codes, etc. that’s all fun, But when it comes to competitive brawl, should it really be changed? There will always be the original, but a brawl+ community? Or even changes as little as this.
Now I’m getting skeptical:
Should we really be altering the way this game plays?
Are we really this upset with how brawl turned out, that we want to make it better?
Currently I have no problem with this continuing to be put into works. After all the effort that was put into this, it seems stupid to want it to stop. This is all possible after all.
Those are just my thoughts.
I'm assuming this was specifically targeted toward me, but branched out because it's very likely other people feel that way.
It's a preview, a consistent WiP, just like the other Brawl project. I understand this, however I also feel that the overall goal prevents the ultimate goal from being achieved ("balance" so to speak).
The other things I'm nitpicking on because this project seems really reluctant to fix anything (mostly hitboxes; which seems to be emphasized several times that many of them aren't gonna be touched on) that wasn't a glaringly obvious problem to people.
I've yet to receive a formal reply but I can hope.
We're very, very interested in doing this as soon as I can figure out how.
No DDD infinite is a big deal. We'll see how DK fits into the changed metagame and go from there. I hope you can be a part of that!
Sadly, we currently have no way of changing them.
Well, before the stage wasn't even playable at all. Now it's an interesting counter-pick grade level, with a high ceiling and worse recovery for characters that really prefer to recover low.
First, I'm not sure what you mean about the frame speed modifier. We've used it for multiple things; fixing locks, grab-releases (both), pikachu f-throw, and more.
I'm not sure what you mean about the water crippling certain characters. At 90%, you have one frame to jump out, end of story. Water is more of a problem for some characters than others, but it's not a huge factor.
I'm not going to pretend that the water change is all sunshine and rainbows, automatically loved by everyone. Some testers like it, some didn't like it at first but then warmed up to it, some testers still don't like it. We want more feedback on this issue. Once you get used to the idea of water being a scary place to be, see what changes. You might like it, you might not. We'll see; this is an important part of this project's development to figure out, and it's getting lots of attention.
I would very much like to do this, but have no way of changing the parameters that control timing on drowning states. (Relative to %)
This is true. Actually, I can do it quite often. Someone I was playing with last night was doing it from his first try, and wondering what the big deal was!
We decided to target Snake's jab for a secondary nerf alongside u-tilt, in order to keep f-tilt in-tact and perserve Snake's identity better. We'll see what additional testers think of how this impacts Snake once more people get playing. I hope you can be a part of that feedback!
Quite the opposite; we are simply trying to continue down the same road that he started. If he hadn't put as much thought and care into the game as he did, this would be futile and impossible.
For example, a lesser game than Smash would have had one shared "power" parameter for damage, knockback base, and knockback growth. That would make the granularity of our changes virtually impossible. Working on this project has made me appreciate how much design is in this game.
DX is already the designation used instead of "Melee" for that game in Japan, lol. It might not be the best choice.
Your concern is not unwarranted. We really want to see where these changes put Pikachu before we figure out where to go next. I hope you can play with it some so you can offer some input.
I don't think it is required at all to change hitbox size, or even attack timing. People are used to the sizes they are, and they work. The game is enjoyable and frankly reasonably balanced as is. We are merely iterating upon the same path.
Given that you are talking to someone who has had an amazing fun 16 months with Brawl and won over $1000 with Jigglypuff, your words kinda fall short.
I think the thriving Brawl community that seems to enjoy the game quite a bit, including the vast majority that doesn't play Meta Knight, will continue to enjoy this modification.
This is a legit observation. We intentionally took an ultra-conservative "wait-and-see" approach on the upper-mid and lower-high tiers. Given that we are nerfing 3 characters, changing the chaingrabs on 3 more, and buffing the low tiers, and drastically increasing stage viability, it is uncertain just what the overall impact on these characters will be. Only legitimate playtesting experience by many skilled palyers will supply the data needed to make properly informed decisions.
Why do you think this topic exists?
I'm not going to lie, me and Ampharos have no intention of assembling some "Justice League" of random, vaguely-high-profile mains to meet in the Bat Cave and solve world hunger. There's no need for us to complicate the logistical side of releases, and centralizing things does lead to a more cohesive vision... something Sakurai himself advocates heavily.
However, the entire point of all of these many, many posts is that we want feedback. As much as possible, from as many players as possible. The more player, and the better players, playing more matchups, the better. We're no more or less human than Sakurai, so what do you expect? We already sought out input from specific players during earlier testing, and now that we are public we look forward to extending that even more, to everyone.
Gea
Smash Master
No, it wasn't specifically targeting anyone. I think they are trying to specifically avoid hitbox changes in lue of damage/knockback changes so that no one has to relearn spacing. That the moves are fundamentally the same, just less effective. Like Snake's utilt. I think making it weaker but still rigged in range was a superior alternative to making Snake work really hard to land a utilt for the same reward.
This way Snake players can still use utilt the same way and get different effects. Everyone wins in that situation.
I can agree that certain moves with poor hitboxes (say, Peach's usmash or Luigi's dtilt) would be candidates for changes to make them more viable. Actually, I'd be happy with everything for Peach (even her airdodge) being exactly as vanilla and the usmash sweetspot being reasonable.
Edit: Also you have to realize that it is better to underbuff and redo the buffs/changes than overbuff and have to deal with the backlash of constantly making characters worse. I prefer this method, I just think this preview release has a few simple changes that could make it overall more effective.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The big problem I have is that the answer to a character being bad in many cases is just making their worst moves hit harder, which doesn't do jack for them, frankly.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Very true. To make a player more even you have to change advantages in match-ups which frankly comes down to the options a person has against another. In order to do that you have to make game changing alterations.
As far as I can tell Shiek and ICs can still beat Ganon pretty hard.
I can understand hitbox size, because ultimately even the WBR decided against changing Snake's hitboxes, but attack timing wasn't really what I was talking about.
I really meant those moves were borderline useless and don't work at all as they should. Timing TL's fsmash differently won't change the fact that it really does never connect. *shrug*
Perhaps, but most would consider you to be a rare exception. =P
I don't see how they won't, but I guess I wanted to say "don't limit yourselves too much before you get started." Right now you're attracting the crowd, once you do that, you hope to keep them.
Err, I suck at these examples rofl.
That snippet wasn't meant for AA and you, but mainly a few other people that with the way they worded their responses, made it very obvious they looked down at our opinions such as "those who like vBrawl what do you guys think...etc."
I could explain farther but this isn't the place for me to vent about the nature of people.
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
I don't really know where to post this but I want to test out snake today so if anyone would like to play, I'd prefer someone from the east coast.
M-WUZ-H3R3
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 1,793
I think the hardest part of balancing characters is modifying their cheap or underused moves without completely changing it. The propose of this is to balance the game without changing the way the game plays after all.
Techs should really have more invincibility frames. They are just like rolls, yet you can be grabbed out of them.
NintenJoe
Smash Ace
I started playing this briefly yesterday and I'm quite impressed with the changes that were made. One problem I think that should be fixed is Peach's horrid air dodge. It needs to be slightly better to make it viable, especially because Peach's Dair doesn't have enough priority to keep her safe in the air, a place where she is a lot...
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
That's because their underused moves are bad and their cheap moves are cheap. In most cases it's not because of how hard they hit or don't hit, it's because of the other stuff. Hitboxes, effects (MK's tornado), priority, etc. Snake's utilt isn't crazy because of how early it kills, but because of its stupid range. Ganon's grab isn't bad because his pummels and throws suck (even though they might, I don't know) they're bad because Flame Choke is always better and because his grab's actual range is so pitiful no one smart will ever get hit by it.
You can't just take a really bad move and make it kill early in most cases. The move is still going to be bad, it's just going to be a bad move that kills early. I can count on one hand the amount of bad moves in this game that are bad because they don't hit hard enough. Seriously.
This is a good idea, but there are a ton of misconceptions about various characters here and you guys really need input from good players who play these characters.
There are also a lot of missed chain grabs (ZSS' fthrow chaingrabs on ganon, cf, bowser, snake, and dedede, Pit's low % cgs, a few others).
Gea
Smash Master
Honestly ZSS should keep her CGs. Good luck grabbing with her easily. >.>
I got to you in the next one.
That would be fantastic, exactly the sort of thing we are looking to. We seriously do take data like this into account. PM me for more details if you want.
First, thanks for the last bit; such an attitude and open mind automatically makes anything you say much more legit in my book, and more could stand to follow your example. Including myself!
Jab3 isn't really a big deal to be nerfed, since you're right; at high level paly it doesn't matter as much. However, u-tilt matters more then, and it REALLY does matter. I think if you play with it you will feel the same way. I hope you do get to test it and look at these concerns to offer further input.
The big difference here is that all of those weaknesses were polarizing factors. They skewed the matchups for those characters considerably, and no amount of buffs could make up for them without breaking the characters in the matchups unaffected by those weaknesses.
Again, I've got my eye on Peach. I hope there is no shortage of people testing with her so the final product can do her justice.
It is significantly stronger, again, one of the biggest single buffs. Testers find it effective and worth using; Slow, vulnerable moves require proper reward, which this move lacked before.
This could probably only be fixed by taboo timing changes, although potentially clever tweaks to the angle might help. For the time being though, I think it is best to investigate where ZSS fits into the new metagame with this f-smash buff. As Ampharos said, Holms was favorable about it, so it seems to be on the right track. Once more people get to playing with her, we will see.
Yes, this is actually intentional, fortunate behavior. Otherwise the death-spring would skew Sonic's matchups too much... As it stands, it is intended to be a very annoying obstacle that constricts recovery options and does some damage. It already had that role, and now it does it much more effectively.
The spring still got a buff by its ability to "semi-spike" though, correct?
It does hit opponents downward, but it can be jumped out of quickly. It's "non-trivial", but far from broken.
Yes, exactly. There are so many changes happening at once that we have to take things slow... which is incidentally the opposite how how pre-release balance testing is done, where changes intentionally overshoot as part of a binary search to maximize the use of increasingly valuable time.
We have lots of time though, and can proceed carefully to give everything due consideration. Feedback, feedback, feedback.
I really wish we had the means to apply super armor to moves/animations. I really, really do. Bowser's dair is a big change though, don't underestimate it. It fills in a hole in his existing game very nicely.
I speak for myself and Ampharos when I say we are in complete agreement. If we didn't think Brawl was a good game and was fun to play, we would not spent countless hours doing this. If Brawl wasn't balanced reasonably well to begin with, trying to improve it would be far harder and ultimately futile. The fact is, a lot of the hard work has already been done. The characters already have unique identities providing them with strengths and weaknesses of reasonable magnitude. All we have to do is iterate.
Exactly; we are only doing this because we like Brawl for what it is. I don't drive 4 hours to tourneys because I'm upset with the game in any way, that's for sure. This project is built on the foundation of being as interchangeable as possible with standard Brawl, crossing as few lines as we have to in pursuit of ever-elusive perfection.Should we really be altering the way this game plays?
Are we really this upset with how brawl turned out, that we want to make it better?
Currently I have no problem with this continuing to be put into works. After all the effort that was put into this, it seems stupid to want it to stop. This is all possible after all.
Those are just my thoughts.
Thanks for your civil and polite post, BTW.
I'm not sure I understand your platform. Are you saying that no changes can ever make up for abnormally sized hitboxes? Most of our playtest groups felt Snake u-tilt was reasonable, and I'm not sure we can fairly ask players to learn one set of hitbox sizes for our version and another for standard Brawl... even for only a few moves.
Rykoshet
Smash Champion
The real issue honestly is that with how strict the water is, you're putting people who are already in a terrible situation in a worse one. I mean if you wanna keep the 0% death situation there that's fine, all I have to do is get my *** back on jthe stage and give up taking a free stock but at the end of the day I know the person I'm fighting HAS to jump back immediately, it's just ripe for getting their *** smashed the second their feet leave that water. Nevermind the fact that 1/60th of a second leeway is kinda pushing it. If there were reasonable room to buffer the immediate and easy to read jump out it'd make sense but there is none. It's scarier to be near the side of any stage with water past like... 60 than it is to be in front of the strongest killshots in the game, at least you have a chance to dodge those killshots.
Adapt
Smash Lord
I'd like you to know I did test this. I spent over an hour playing ZSS, Ganon, CF, and Jiggs. (mainly ZSS and Ganon)
As for killing, which someone mentioned, I got some hard data this morning to show you. All percentages are on Mario from the center of FD in training mode. No DI.
ZSS's fsmash kills at 103% on mario from the center of FD (sweetspot). This is a definite improvement. The problem is that you will never hit with this move unless you are lucky. And even if you are lucky down smash has the same startup, and far less ending lag. You can just hit with a double down-smash>bair and kill even earlier (97%). Bair also seems to be less DI-able, but that is just an impression, not fact.
If you get a single down smash, and then try and sweetspot a fsmash, you are still screwed because fsmash affects aerial opponents differently. Single down smash>fsmash interestingly enough also kills at 103% before the d-smash, despite doing 11 more damage.
Finally, trying to charge the f-smash. Yes it has excellent power, but it's very rare that you would ever get a charged f-smash off. The only option is to partially charge it after a d-smash.
d-smash>part charged f-smash kills at ~90%
Congrats... I can kill ~7% earlier than before. That's it.
Now, as for the second point: spacing
Side-B is a better spacing move in nearly every way. It has more range, lower cool-down, can be used in the air, and is easier to sweetspot. Using it in the air is a BIG advantage.
The only thing that fsmash has over Side-B is that there isn't a dead spot in the middle.
Overall ZSS got a super small buff in this, but a decent sized nerf in the Fox and Rob matches. I anticipate that she really plays about the same as before, but she might have got a small buff in the MK and Snake (maybe Falco too) matchups, time will tell.
D
Deleted member
Guest
All that Peach really lacks is a functional air dodge. Since her character was altered in only minor ways, I can't see much testing needed for her specifically so much as match-up testing to see how she plays against other more relevant character edits.
Gea
Smash Master
Her bair is fine and can actually kill for her. It is great for spacing and doesn't need changing. Her airdodge is one of those "was that a mistake?" things in Brawl if you look at the frame data, however.
Edit: This suggestion was like the "Make Ness' aerial game better."
D'whaaaaa?? Its already great.
Edit: This suggestion was like the "Make Ness' aerial game better."
D'whaaaaa?? Its already great.
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