Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Bouse]

On Zero Suit Samus: Increase the startup of the third jab, so that she can actually have a useful jab combo. But decrease the knockback and damage on the third hit.

It gives her a valid damage buildup outside of her punishable moves.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Also, did you know that Ike can go under battlefield from the ledge and recover to the other side?

 

[Turbo Ether]

this **** looks better than regular brawl and brawl plus. If you guys manage to finish this project and really get it down i will see if i can push this a little further and make this a legit thing. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS. I GUESS THE GAUNTLET OLD RULES REALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE AFTER ALL.

Yo, Wes, you should consider running this at the next Gauntlet bi-weekly imo.

Also, did you know that Ike can go under battlefield from the ledge and recover to the other side?

Ike can go under FD, man!

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ike can go under FD, man!

Nah, I meant that while Ike is hanging on the ledge on battlefield, he can let go->side B->jump->side B->up B and recover to the other side of it. No charging required.

 

[King~]

feedback on pikachu

without his grab game and no buffs it really really hurts him. since he cant combo out of most of his grabs at the lower percents this makes things harder when it comes time for killing imo. cause now it ends up forcing more use of kill moves early on for damage purposes, to the point where pika wont be killing till much later(albeit pika killing is one of his main weakness). and not being able to chase f-throw hurts alot period.

idk maybe its just me but i dont remeber to many people complaining about his f-throw CG in the first place

 

[Zig-Zag!]

feedback on pikachu

without his grab game and no buffs it really really hurts him. since he cant combo out of most of his grabs at the lower percents this makes things harder when it comes time for killing imo. cause now it ends up forcing more use of kill moves early on for damage purposes, to the point where pika wont be killing till much later(albeit pika killing is one of his main weakness). and not being able to chase f-throw hurts alot period.

idk maybe its just me but i dont remeber to many people complaining about his f-throw CG in the first place

I havent tried bbrawl out yet, I hope to get thinkaman over here to show me soon though. Still, doesnt the graphic discuss using upthrow as the main lead in to a combo? I kind of enjoy that more, being a melee main. Pika still kills with thunder, nair, or even downsmash. I think most characters dont have as big a luxury as pika does, so I assume you could still manage to save one of those for the kill even without the forward throws. Ergo, balance.

 

[Mr.-0]

Hey guys, anybody wanna talk about Brawl+ in here?

Apparently that's a punishable by death thing to do in here... hey, if the workshop character discussion thread is working for b+, can we use it for this too? I's title suggest that it's to be used for all shamsh workshop caharcter stuff.

 

[Teronist09]

I don't understand at all where you are coming from, and again I don't mean to sound rude.

Ganon is a character about having and exploiting control over your opponent. He seems slow and useless, but then he gets into a position where he is in charge of the situation and pulls out some trick that just destroys you. That's Ganon.

If you don't like that style, and yet again I don't mean to sound rude... but why are you playing Ganon? If you want strong ranged attacks, why aren't you playing DK? I'm not trying to insult you, just curious. Besides the control aspect, DK and even Bowser and Charizard do pretty much everything Ganon could want to do better. We intentionally focuses on the aspect that made him unique, since otherwise Ganon will always be just another heavy character, and the worst one at that.

My point is that before I could decide how much tech chasing I wanted to incorporate into my game. Changing dtilt, one of Ganon's primary moves, to serve only one purpose removes that because, as I said, it only has one application with the tripping mechanic. In vBrawl you can combo out of dtilt at low to mid percents into a number of different moves or setups, or kill at high %s if it isn't too stale. With the tripping on it it can only be used for ground tech chasing and sticks Ganon into one style of play and keeps him on the ground running back and forth tech chasing.
It seems like your saying Ganon didn't have any high damage chasing abilities with choke before this change, which is pretty untrue. Choke to fsmash, sex change, dair, fair, or quake can all be effective damage builders, and dair is already a staple move for damage racking.


I use almost every character besides Ganon once in awhile, and I guess sometimes use those mentioned, but I don't like any of them .__. Ganon is the only character in brawl I like.
But I've never had to rely on heavy tech chasing to do reasonably well with Ganon. With these changes it's the only option rather than a choice I can make as appropriate, and I'd rather just play vBrawl in such a circumstance whether this is more balanced or not.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I havent tried bbrawl out yet, I hope to get thinkaman over here to show me soon though. Still, doesnt the graphic discuss using upthrow as the main lead in to a combo? I kind of enjoy that more, being a melee main. Pika still kills with thunder, nair, or even downsmash. I think most characters dont have as big a luxury as pika does, so I assume you could still manage to save one of those for the kill even without the forward throws. Ergo, balance.

actually the uthrow and dthrow dont combo unless the opponent does nothing

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Lol ganon's dtilt.

Good times, good times.

Looks good, I'll have to give it a whirl and see how it goes.

 

[Delta Z]

Something I just thought of: when you changed Link & Metaknight's B attacks, did you also change the versions Kirby copies?

 

[ffdgh]

Ok ryko i learned i have a bad rolling habbit, that im clueless on how to shield grab, spacing, predictable, mind games, ur taunt, ur taunt, ur taunt, ur taint, ur taunt.................. thx for the beat down as it shows my many flaws lol


what happened on spear pillar must never be spoken....NEVER

godly ike btw

 

[Zig-Zag!]

actually the uthrow and dthrow dont combo unless the opponent does nothing

THE GRAPHIC LIED TO ME

what is the talk of pikas upthrow then?

 

[NintenJoe]

Something I just thought of: when you changed Link & Metaknight's B attacks, did you also change the versions Kirby copies?

wow I never thought of this actually. It would probably be a good idea to fix that. Kirby could keep MK's **** tornado or get Link's new gimp arrows... hmmm....

 

[MysticKenji]

Something I just thought of: when you changed Link & Metaknight's B attacks, did you also change the versions Kirby copies?

Kirby's nado seems to work the exact same as in vBrawl.

edit: Kirby's copies are the same as in vBrawl.

 

[ThreeSided]

Quick question... how exactly did you change ZSS's ability to chain Dsmashes? I'm just making sure you didn't do it in a way that would effect other aspects of her gameplay with her Dsmash.

 

[ffdgh]

>_>did u record those battles ? idc if u did lol but those battles made me look like crap =/

 

[CRASHiC]

If you had so much as tried to play the game at all, you might have noticed that DDD's d-throw on the edge is an automatic KO with ledgehog against both of those characters (and no one else); this is in addition to his existing tech-chasing being easier.

On top of that, you also might have noticed that d-throw now spins the other IC away from DDD to separate them.

However, you were too busy ignoring this and flaming us to notice. Thanks.

First off, the chances of grabbing someone at the edge are rare and almost never happen at top level play.

Secondly, the dthrow is pointless against ICs because any attempt for a throw, they can hit us during and lead it to a grab. You seem highly unaware of DDDs matchups, other wise you would know that taking out the (non-standing) chain grab would not balance anything, except ruin many of DDDs matchups. As for tech chasing, any DDD will tell you that it is in favor of the chased. They have 5 options, one of which they can use to punish us. They can tech on the ground and punish. Just because those that we could chain grab before might not travel as far doesn't change their ability to tech and hit us during our ending grab animation.

If this was really ONLY about balance, you wouldn't have done such a thing. No, this is your own personal version of Brawl.

Nothing you have done changes the fact that DDD will have 15 horrid matchups now, and has no reliable way of getting an opponent off stage.

Having a character with a HUGE grab range, who can punish almost ANYONE with a shieldgrab -> cg -> high damage throw, is NOT balanced. It needed to go. It was fine for the ICs to keep theirs. Why? Tiny grab range, no reliable way to set it up, shield grabbing doesn't work in most match-ups, and that is ALL they have.

His match ups are NOT going to suddenly go from 65-35 his favor to 35-65 due to a lack of CG. You are a fool to believe that. D3 still has a great projectile. D3 still has MONSTER throws that characters would kill to have. D3 still has a great gimping game. D3 still has amazing, disjointed hitboxes on most of his attacks. D3 still has great survivability. D3 still has great KOing power and the ability to set up kill moves, or has kill moves that don't need setting up.

Again, someone who doesn't know DDD.
I could say the same thing about Potekmen and May in Guilty Gear, characters who have huge punishing game, huge range, and May was given a loop attack on the entire cast on purpose. They in know way destroy balance.
What tools will DDD have to beat marth now? He has no reliable way of getting marth off stage for a gimp, as Bthrow or Fthrow will put his opponent far to high to go for a reliable gimp. Are matchups with large advatage are because of DDD's chain grab, but because of a lack of maneuverability by characters like Ike, Gannon, and Link.
Our gimping game relied on the chain grab to get them off stage and low.
Our projectile is not as good as you think, and is easily punishable due to large lag by 2/3rd of the cast. Any DDD main will tell you this.
You also don't know ICs. If ICs didn't have ways to set up chain grabs, Lain wouldn't have beat M2K.

 

[Rykoshet]

>_>did u record those battles ? idc if u did lol but those battles made me look like crap =/

didnt record any, gotta chill with the rolls

 

[ffdgh]

ur a tourney pro and u didn't warn me lol.....and again point taken on the rolling(it was my downfall for idk every battle?

spear pillar again was rigged

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If you wanna do ZSS any favors, you won't change much. SHe's a balanced-or-better character that goes even-ish against 90% of the cast and needs very little in the way of changes:

- Jab combo needs to connect. This is a design flaw, just like dsmash gains or infinite grab combos. Change the angle of the second jab so that it sends the opponent upwards just enough to get them off the ground.

- Grab is hard to deal with. I wouldn't want to see you mess with the grab lag much because it's a weakness that makes sense, but what you should do is increase the stun time on Paralyzer Shot a little bit so that the baby hitbox (uncharged shot) means a guaranteed grab.

That's it. Change nothing else. If you must change Fsmash, make it trip or something. We have no guaranteed jab locks or anything, so that would be fine.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What tools will DDD have to beat marth now? He has no reliable way of getting marth off stage for a gimp, as Bthrow or Fthrow will put his opponent far to high to go for a reliable gimp.

Yes, isn't it amazing?

I kid, I kid.

Honestly, DDD's techchasing seems pretty usable. He's certainly not as good as he was before (which was partially the objective since he IS better then Diddy in Vbrawl), but he seems to still have a useful techchassing game.

That's my impression from the the limited playtesting I did with him.


Other impressions. Ganondorf's quake is too slow to really be useful.


Water essentially is a blastzone over 90, honestly, I'd just make it auto-drown period, (therefore making the stages in question completely nerf recoveries and be better for power characters) or make you able to last a reasonable time at any percent.

 

[King~]

THE GRAPHIC LIED TO ME

what is the talk of pikas upthrow then?

basically it sends the opponet in a small arc, which they can jump out/di/ maybe even attack out of.

same with downthrow

i understand there was no way around that sadly, i was one of the few who used upthrow lol

 

[Benny The Jet Rodriguez]

I can't get this to load from a snapshot with a b+ snapshot also on the SD card.

 

[Roxas215]

I can't get this to load from a snapshot with a b+ snapshot also on the SD card.

Thats cause snapshots override eachother. If you have more then 1 snapshot then whatever is the most recent snapshot you put on your sd card will be the one that works. The most recent snapshot will override all other exisiting snapshots on your sd card. I hope they find someway to fix this. With all the different nightlys of brawl+ ex brawl and now bbrawl people would like to have multiple snapshots to load different codesets. It's not possible as of now.

 

[Big O]

I tried out the new knee and it kills Mario at 53% if he doesn't DI from the middle of FD. His Utilt kills at about 100% too. CF is scary now. Maybe you should tone down the knee a little since it's stronger than a fully charged giant punch now. His up b doing 22 damage is nice but I always found it weird how his up b is stronger and does more damage than Ganon's. With Ganon's new shoryuken I don't really care about that anymore though.

I love the new wizkick with Ganon. It is finally safe on hit at low damage and actually has knockback. The pitfall mechanic and new Dtilt is also very nice. The new shoryuken on his up b is also very fitting. I approve of the new King of Evil. You can still attack Ganon out of his up b grab though. I think the only way to fix it is to make the last hit have a fixed amount of knockback. Just enough so that Jiggs won't go into tumble so that no character can attack out of tumble hitstun. If you can't change the knockback you could make it do more damage and send at a semi-spike angle to make attacking him more difficult.

In response to Thinkaman's answer about his Dtilt being a "slip" move I don't think it is working as you intended. You say it can double trip but no matter how I try, after the first trip they won't trip a second time until after they roll/get up. In fact it just makes them get up instead. I'm just putting this out there since you say you have to adjust the frames to get rid of a trip lock. You probably don't need to do that judging from the small amount of time I put into trying it out.

 

[CRASHiC]

Honestly, DDD's techchasing seems pretty usable. He's certainly not as good as he was before (which was partially the objective since he IS better then Diddy in Vbrawl), but he seems to still have a useful techchassing game.

That's my impression from the the limited playtesting I did with him.

Tech chasing a computer is far to easy.
Tech chasing top level players is near impossible.

 

[Roxas215]

I agree about DDD even though i hate his cg his cg was used for getting people off stage and gimps and without it many matchups will def not be in his favor anymore.


And lol at ic's having no setups to cg's. What the hell are u talking about.

 

[ph00tbag]

For the record, ZSS's fsmash buff would be a great move if she played like Ike. But ZSS does not play like Ike. Ike is very ground-based and gets KOs by predicting his opponents defensive choices with high-risk/high-reward KOers. ZSS plays like ZSS, who is primarily an aerial character. Most of her ground game is designed to put her opponent into the air so she can punish them there. She also uses her superb aerial movement to bait out opportunities to KO with her aerials like uair, bair and fair.

Furthermore, ZSS already has one grounded move that is used for predicting defensive moves, and that has as much range as fsmash, is safe on block, and comes out in the same exact amount of time. It also sets up for any of her five KO moves depending on context. Dsmash is another move that Fsmash pales in comparison to.

So buffing Fsmash would involve a lot of thinking beyond what you seem to have given it. It's not like the knockback was terrible in vBrawl. Actually, it wasn't too bad, and if it had been on a better move, I would have appreciated it. It's not even the slow start up. Obviously, we still manage to hit with Plasma Whip and Dsmash. No, the biggest problem with Fsmash is that if I'm blocked, there are 47 frames where my opponent can do whatever they want. Unless that changes, fsmash isn't really worth using, except maybe after Dsmash, but like Adapt has shown, Dsmash x2 -> aerial KO move is just as good, if not better.

I'm not even trying to tell you to make Fsmash better. I'm telling you not to try. ZSS mains have been getting by without Fsmash since the game came out, and we don't even complain about it anymore. We joke about it, because the move is a joke. If you want a minor buff that will actually help the character, focus on the jab buff, and just forget about the Fsmash buff.

I mean, really; You want to be conservative with buffs, and here you have some of the most highly respected ZSS mains (seriously, I didn't even know who Holms was until you mentioned him) telling you not to give us a particular buff, and your response is, "nah, I think we'll keep it"? Explain this anomaly.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ike is very ground-based and gets KOs by predicting his opponents defensive choices with high-risk/high-reward KOers.

Considering his only safe on block move is his bair, a ground based ike only relies on his opponent being dumb to land moves. Jab being one of his mainstays doesn't change that a good ike will ***** bair nair and fair all over the place.

 

[ph00tbag]

Considering his only safe on block move is his bair, a ground based ike only relies on his opponent being dumb to land moves. Jab being one of his mainstays doesn't change that a good ike will ***** bair nair and fair all over the place.

Tell me that Ike is less ground based than ZSS.

Just do that.

 

[ffdgh]

...no comment XD but mind games play a critical role too..that or Patience

 

[MK26]

Now I’m getting skeptical:
Should we really be altering the way this game plays?
Are we really this upset with how brawl turned out, that we want to make it better?

Just puttung this out there, but yes and yes.

Thats cause snapshots override eachother. If you have more then 1 snapshot then whatever is the most recent snapshot you put on your sd card will be the one that works. The most recent snapshot will override all other exisiting snapshots on your sd card. I hope they find someway to fix this. With all the different nightlys of brawl+ ex brawl and now bbrawl people would like to have multiple snapshots to load different codesets. It's not possible as of now.

As far as I know loading a snaphot only adds to the codes that are alrewady there. If you really need to switch between codesets, just reset the game.

You can still attack Ganon out of his up b grab though. I think the only way to fix it is to make the last hit have a fixed amount of knockback. Just enough so that Jiggs won't go into tumble so that no character can attack out of tumble hitstun. If you can't change the knockback you could make it do more damage and send at a semi-spike angle to make attacking him more difficult.

We fixed that by applying hit effect value 0F to the move. You should do the same to the swallow portion of Kirby's neutral-b, and there was one other move as well, but i cant remeber which one it was... :/

 

[Rykoshet]

Tell me that Ike is less ground based than ZSS.

Just do that.

Relatively? Of course not, but it doesn't change that you used a terrible example considering ike is not ground based to begin with. We space with autocanceled aerials, a large majority of our KO's are from aerials and the ground based kills are mostly due to catching someone out of a dodge, which your fsmash would serve the exact same purpose. Don't detour.

 

[Shadow_of_Link]

Haha, this is awesome. Even though I main Snake, it's still alot more fun than 'Basic Brawl.'

 

[GodAtHand]

If that is all you are doing for Zelda you should either msg me or go talk to the Zelda board. For realz.

 

[Roxas215]

As far as I know loading a snaphot only adds to the codes that are alrewady there. If you really need to switch between codesets, just reset the game.

It doesn't work like that. Say u added 2 different snapshots. 1 brawl+ and 1 bbrawl. Since bbrawl was the newest one added to the sd card both snapshots are now bbrawl. If u delete the bbrawl snapshot the brawl+ snapshot will go back to loading the brawl+ codeset. Resetting the game does not change this. Snapshots for some reason override existing snapshots but then go back when the newest one is deleted. I have no idea why or how to change this.

 

[Rykoshet]

Off the top of my head. Zelda could use din's fire not causing deadfall, something actually capable of shield pressuring or at the very least something that is safe on non power shielded block. The Ending lag on her moves makes heavy characters blush. FW is pretty pathetic too but maybe that's just me.

 

[Adapt]

Tell me that Ike is less ground based than ZSS.

Just do that.

Nah, Ryko is right Ph00t, when I play Ike I am in the air almost as much as when I play ZSS. Granted I'm not a great Ike, but I see most Ikes use fair, bair and nair a lot.

Snake is a good example of a fairly ground based character. Zelda too.

However, it doesn't change the fact that ZSS doesn't use, or need a f-smash

 

[ffdgh]

FW as fast as mewtwo's teleport from melee?